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zephiros
2010-07-14, 05:22 PM
Hey guys, I'm new here, this is my first post. I've played a bit of D&D and I've been looking into doing a bit of deeper research into the rulebooks. I've played in about 10 or 11 campaigns now across 5 or 6 different DMs, so I haven't been at it too long, but I really enjoy it, and I try to do a lot of RP character-building.

What I'm looking for now is to get a bit more ingrained in the play mechanics. That being said, I'm undertaking a good deal of class research - looking through various rulebooks and such.

I was looking for anyone who felt like it to just let me know their favourite base or prestige classes, anything you want to give me. Let me know the focus of the class (melee, stealth, psionic, arcane, divine, combination, other) which book it can be found in, any particular race that's good to play the class as, in your opinion, and the book in which the class (and race, if included) can be found.

I'm just hoping to find some unique ideas, maybe learn about some more obscure classes, both base and prestige, that have unique and beneficial abilities. Please make them from the v3.5 and v3.0 rulebooks, I think that's a pretty wide scope. Thanks for the suggestions guys, I look forward to hearing about them.

gallagher
2010-07-14, 05:29 PM
Hey guys, I'm new here, this is my first post. I've played a bit of D&D and I've been looking into doing a bit of deeper research into the rulebooks. I've played in about 10 or 11 campaigns now across 5 or 6 different DMs, so I haven't been at it too long, but I really enjoy it, and I try to do a lot of RP character-building.

What I'm looking for now is to get a bit more ingrained in the play mechanics. That being said, I'm undertaking a good deal of class research - looking through various rulebooks and such.

I was looking for anyone who felt like it to just let me know their favourite base or prestige classes, anything you want to give me. Let me know the focus of the class (melee, stealth, psionic, arcane, divine, combination, other) which book it can be found in, any particular race that's good to play the class as, in your opinion, and the book in which the class (and race, if included) can be found.

I'm just hoping to find some unique ideas, maybe learn about some more obscure classes, both base and prestige, that have unique and beneficial abilities. Please make them from the v3.5 and v3.0 rulebooks, I think that's a pretty wide scope. Thanks for the suggestions guys, I look forward to hearing about them.DMM Clerics and Druids offer the most versatility as far as party roles go with the highest power.

other than that, get to know tome of battle, it is the key to being a dominant melee machine. as much as people tote wizards as being the best characters, i just find myself bored being a wizard after a while

Arillius
2010-07-14, 05:34 PM
A Pathfinder Book's Smiter Cleric, one that focuses on their physical attack so that they can deal insane amounts of d6's on a melee hit with a greatsword and Channel Smite. last Ic ounted I could hit 7d6+10 at 8t level, and the ability to heal myself with negative energy from one of his domains.

From the same book a Necromancy Death Cleric. It focuses ont he channel negative energy feature for healing and commanding undead. The spontaneous inflict wounds I can use to heal myself because of the death domain. Things like Bloody Skeleton Dire wolves are great to for their relatively low hd, their capabilities as a mount I can heal, their regen of 2, ability to come back after being destroyed, and most of all trip. Barring getting one of those, and army of bloody skeletons is fun to be in the middle of and heal.

Caphi
2010-07-14, 05:38 PM
Swordsage. If you aren't in the mood for arcane casting for any reason, but want to have a ton of insane tricks anyway, pick one up; their six disciplines cover shooting fireballs, walking in walls, turning invisible, punching out walls, teleporting, spontaneously learning to scent-track, doing ludicrous acrobatic stunts...

Zovc
2010-07-14, 06:15 PM
A few classes I like are the Beguiler, the Factotum, the Psion, and the Swordsage.

The Beguiler is found in the Player's Handbook II (I strongly recommend this book). The class is meant to combine the Rogue with an Illusionist and an Enchanter--it doesn't get sneak attack dice but it does get a sort of sneak attack mechanic for its spells. I feel like this is one of the best designed spellcasters ever printed in 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons. Also note the fun mechanical synergy with prestige classes that improve your spell list--Because the Beguiler knows his entire spell list, he can greatly improve his versatility by adding to his spell list. Any race you can find with an intelligence bonus is a good race for a Beguiler, generally.*

The Factotum comes from Dungeonscape. Much like a bard, he serves as an excellent 'fifth wheel' to the party. Only, where the bard supports people in doing their thing, the Factotum joins them in doing their thing. The Factotum is a fun class on its own and has some silly tricks, but it's especially powerful in gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm), since it can give itself extra standard actions eventually. Like the Beguiler, any race you can find that boosts your intelligence is a good choice for the Factotum.*

*The two that come to mind off the top of my head are both Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm). One you'll find there (taken from the Monster Manual), the Gray Elf. The other, Fire Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire), come from Unearthed Arcana.

The Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) comes from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. The Psion is a lot like the Wizard of the Psionic world. I recommend you give this class and Psionics in general a chance--make sure you understand them before you hate them (a lot of people who hate the system overlook small things). Again, races that boost intelligence are good for Psions, but the Psionic race Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) certainly deserves some special mention (same book).

Finally, the Swordsage is in the Tome of Battle. The Swordsage is, in many ways, what the monk wanted to be--especially if you use the Unarmed Swordsage variant from the same book! The Swordsage is just a super-cool melee class that doesn't need a full Base Attack Bonus. What's also cool is that almost any race can rock a Swordsage fairly well.

Kythorian
2010-07-14, 06:52 PM
sun elves boost int too, but i forget what they are from.

Anyway...my favorite class is the wizard. I love having answers to everything and never having a situation where i just sit back and don't have anything to do. As for prc's, going off of the wizard, i would have to say master specialist(conjuration specialist) when i am playing battlefield control type(from complete mage), war weaver if i am a buffer wizard(Heroes of battle) to apply my buffs to all allies at the same time(though you do loose a caster lvl), and incantatrix(magic of Faerun) for metamagic wizard(gets boring after a while, but quite powerful), or (very occasionally because it gets annoying to keep up with) a malconvoker if i want a summoner(i think complete scoundrel, but am not 100% sure)

For others, DMM cleric(divine metamagic can be found in the complete divine) is fun, as previously pointed out, which is the route i go when i want a melee char(better in melee than any fighter, or even warblade(tome of battle), and all those nice divine spells too)

Archivist(heroes of horror) is a lot of fun too, since they can put all divine spells on their spell list(cleric, druid, paladin, etc...a lot of wizard spells are domain spells for certain clerics, so those too...if your DM is nice, divine bard...if your DM is insane, you can get all wizard spells from southern magician(or something like that) which are cast as divine spells for them). So probably has potentially the most massive spell-list, which is fun, but they depend on the DM allowing you to track down the scrolls of the spells you want to add to your spellbook, which keeps them in check(if the DM knows what they are doing)

Kythorian
2010-07-14, 07:02 PM
Oh, and for races, in addition to the int races, whisper gnomes make GREAT wizards. +2 dex/con(great), -2 str/cha(dump stats anyway), small(bonus ac), plus some nice other random bonuses, and no real downside at all. They are in the Races of Stone.

Optimystik
2010-07-14, 07:08 PM
It doesn't get much more unique (or fun to RP) than Binder.

You get to play a minigame with the DM every day, and very useful abilities. Plus you don't need to learn a new system.

zephiros
2010-07-15, 12:15 AM
Wow, thanks guys, there's some great ideas here. Wasn't exactly expecting the thread to take off so fast.

Yeah, I've played Rogue, Fighter, Wizard, Barbarian, probably a few others before. As far as classes go I haven't really reached much beyond the standard, but as I get more into it it's something I'd definitely like to do.

Just as kind of a funny story to share with everyone, we were playing a b/s campaign one time (ignoring just about all the rules :P) and I convinced the DM to give me a Mindflayer Wizard, with no level adjustment, spells per day, spell failure, nothing. And he knew every spell of a level he could cast.

Also, for the first session, he pretty much let me cast anything except Wish. :P The sad part is, most of the people didn't break their characters that much (even though it was pretty much a "who can break theirs the most" competition) so everyone was a bit surprised when a level one wizard polymorphed a bugbear into a health potion, then proceeded to eat the second bugbear's head. :P

Needless to say, next week, we agreed to some slightly more stringent rules.

I actually have a kind of similar story from another broken campaign that I can share later on, though for the night, I'm off to bed. Thanks for the great ideas everyone, I'll keep a close watch here for new things.

For the people who mentioned Psion (I know there was at least one) good choice, I was actually researching that a bit today, before I came back to check the thread. I'll make sure to look at the other ones soon.

Again, feel free to throw in any relevant Prestige Classes. :P I haven't checked yet but I think all those mentioned were base ones. I do tend to play singleclassed characters, but that could change.

Starting a short campaign tomorrow with a friend based around the Book of Exalted Deeds. He requested me to be the Party Cleric, cleric of Pelor with Sun and Healing domains and taking Radiant Servant of Pelor once my requirements were met. Once I heard that the enemies would be exclusively undead, I readily agreed. :P

Anyways, thanks again everyone, I appreciate the awesome-sounding suggestions.



Edit: I was going to ask about Arillius' suggestion, I haven't before seen or heard of the Pathfinder's Book, and while I only did a quick search on Google I didn't really find anything matching. If anyone could help with that, that'd be great.

And to Optimystik, I've had my eye on Binders for some time. I've actually played a Shadowcaster before for a brief period, and seen a friend play a Truenamer (and witnessed how much that can wreck a DM's plans) so Binder is the only class from the Tome of Magic that I haven't witnessed yet. I must admit the premise is alluring.

zephiros
2010-07-15, 11:11 AM
Apologies for the double post, but I'm really anxious to see what other people may recommend (and if they can explain about the Pathfinder's Book?)

Thanks for the help, everyone.

Edit: From Kythorian's post, is there a specific place where Divine Bard can be found?

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 11:33 AM
Plus you don't need to learn a new system.

Well, not a very complicated one anyway.


I like the Factotum, Warblade, Binder, Duskblade, Dragon Shaman and Marshal, personally, though the latter two mainly for use as followers, cohorts or hirelings (Bards as well, get your own personal cheer-leading rock band).

Typically, if it has a good use for Int or Cha, has some nifty abilities and isn't quickly taken out in melee, it's my kinda thing. Incarnum is great too, but it can feel overwhelming at first. Psionics is easy if you're familiar with spellcasting, but it doesn't offer that much new stuff that spellcasters can't get somewhere, somehow.

I want to try the Warlock sometime, too.

Draz74
2010-07-15, 11:59 AM
Edit: From Kythorian's post, is there a specific place where Divine Bard can be found?

Behold, Unearthed Arcana answers your summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) .

zephiros
2010-07-15, 12:36 PM
Thank you Draz, I've been wondering though about the specific benefits of Divine Bard (or a Bard in general) as I can't say the class has ever really appealed to me, it always seemed a bit weak. Maybe someone can show me otherwise.

Natael
2010-07-15, 12:54 PM
Some of my favorite character concepts (ones I've used more than once):

Human Walock (complete arcane for Warlock): I just absolutely love this class, touch attacks are easy to hit, I get to take 10 on use magic device, and I get a few fairly spiffy powers I can always use.

(whisper) Gnome Crusader (Tome of Battle for Crusader, Races of Stone for Whisper Gnome, otherwise use normal one):
I tend to go on an AC pimping spree here, get a beefy shield, maneuvers that make my defense better, and titan fighting. Makes me hard to hit, and some of that crusader stuff can compensate for low strength rather well.

Dwarf Sorcerer/Dragonheart Mage (DHM is Races of the Dragon):
Not a mechanically great choice (minus cha from the Dwarf, DHM losing some caster levels), but I love the dragon obsessed flavour and have not found a good substitute dragon themed caster (though I have not looked hard). Tend to go for this one when I have some awesome stat rolls/high point buy, and flaws are allowed.

Mechanically, not always the best choices (and some kind of meh), but a list of things I enjoy playing as a fair bit.

zephiros
2010-07-16, 01:37 PM
Hmm, I like the idea of Warlock as well, and the Tome of Battle classes all look fantastic. Any particular reason why you would use a dwarf? It's not a great choice for Sorcerer, does it benefit the DHM somehow?

And still wondering if anyone can tell me about the Pathfinder Book?

Aside from that, I think I've got enough base classes to look at, maybe some Prestige? Same again, divine/arcane/psionic/melee/ranged/stealth/other Whatever prestige classes you like. I know there's been some already but I'd love to see more.

subject42
2010-07-16, 01:44 PM
For base classes, I like the ones that have at will or per-encounter abilities. It means you don't need to randomly sleep. Good examples are Binder, Factotum, ToB, Warlock, and Dragon Disciple.

For prestige classes, I like the Deepstone Sentinel (ToB) and the Deepwarden. They're both highly Dwarf-centric, but you can get into them with a liberal application of the Stoneblessed Prestige class from Races of Stone.

Prodan
2010-07-16, 02:06 PM
Hmm, I like the idea of Warlock as well, and the Tome of Battle classes all look fantastic. Any particular reason why you would use a dwarf? It's not a great choice for Sorcerer, does it benefit the DHM somehow?


That reminds me, Gold Dwarves.

sonofzeal
2010-07-16, 02:16 PM
That reminds me, Gold Dwarves.
Gold Dwarves are cliche, and ever so slightly cheesy. They're also setting-specific.


Desert Dwarves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertDwarves) (+2 Con, -2 Dex) are totally good to go though.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-16, 02:35 PM
For a spellcaster that isn't a wizard, take a good look at the dusk blade and the dread necromancer.

The Duskblade is a spellcaster that has no fear of the frount lines, casting spells into his sword to strike. You make a great gish class (caster who melee's)

Dread Necromancer is a great class for all things necromany. You get free negative energy damage at will as a touch attack. Turn yourself into a necropolitin and that is free self healing. You get DR and good undead centric spells.

zephiros
2010-07-17, 01:57 PM
Thanks for the new ones guys, lots of great stuff to choose from here.

Again if anyone feels like putting in Prestige Classes that'd be cool. :P I'm not sure how many people actually read all the way down, I might make a different thread later on Prestige, but anyone who wants to suggest more Prestige or Base, they're certainly welcome.

Edit: This may be kind of a weird question, but for those who read Erfworld, I'd like something like Jack (the Foolamancer). I know somebody mentioned Beguiler, does anyone else know of any classes that you could kind of roleplay as "the charismatic weirdo" type of thing, and that uses illusionary magic?

Drascin
2010-07-17, 02:29 PM
And to Optimystik, I've had my eye on Binders for some time. I've actually played a Shadowcaster before for a brief period, and seen a friend play a Truenamer (and witnessed how much that can wreck a DM's plans)

...by being so useless he caused his estimations on the party to be wrong, right? I mean, you basically have to break out the cheese just to make a Truenamer able to contribute...

Anyway, add another vote for the Binder. They're pretty fun to play.

Optimystik
2010-07-17, 02:32 PM
Gold Dwarves are cliche, and ever so slightly cheesy. They're also setting-specific.

Actually, Gold Dwarves are in the DMG, thus they are core.

But even if you don't want to run them, Dream Dwarves are in Races of Stone and have the same stats.

zephiros
2010-07-17, 02:58 PM
...by being so useless he caused his estimations on the party to be wrong, right? I mean, you basically have to break out the cheese just to make a Truenamer able to contribute...

Yeah, as it turned out our DM wasn't running them correctly. Like, very, very, very incorrectly. But it was a jokes campaign so I don't think anyone really minded. After reading up on them, I have to agree they aren't that great.

The way we did it though? Well, it ended up with a natural 20 roll turning the dragon's lungs into daggers. Don't ask where we came up with that. :P

Greenish
2010-07-17, 03:15 PM
Thank you Draz, I've been wondering though about the specific benefits of Divine Bard (or a Bard in general) as I can't say the class has ever really appealed to me, it always seemed a bit weak. Maybe someone can show me otherwise.Bards are actually pretty good. You can have a look at the handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook) so you'll be forearmed when Mark Hall descents upon this thread.


One of my favourite PrCs is the Fist of the Forest from Comp. Champion. It has some slightly annoying fluff limitations*, but it turns your barbarian into a decent unarmed and unarmoured combatant in three short levels. Con to AC, 1d10 unarmed strike damage, scent and a bite attack are worth spending three levels in a full BAB, d10 HD, two good saves class.

*Yeah, well, if you voluntarily sleep indoors, buy prepared food etc. act civilized more than three times a month, you fall. Puts a bit of a damper on an urban campaign, which is a shame since the class makes an excellent tavern brawler.

Morph Bark
2010-07-17, 04:21 PM
*Yeah, well, if you voluntarily sleep indoors, buy prepared food etc. act civilized more than three times a month, you fall. Puts a bit of a damper on an urban campaign, which is a shame since the class makes an excellent tavern brawler.

Now I wish I had a larger group to play with so we could do an Urban campaign and I could be a Fist of the Forest hobo so I could try my hand at both the great powers of the PrC and the roleplaying challenge. :smallannoyed:

Greenish
2010-07-17, 04:35 PM
Now I wish I had a larger group to play with so we could do an Urban campaign and I could be a Fist of the Forest hobo so I could try my hand at both the great powers of the PrC and the roleplaying challenge. :smallannoyed:Hehe, brilliant. The PrC specifies that you can't buy food, but you can get it by begging or stealing.

Disclaimer: The PrC isn't hugely powerful. Unarmed Strikes are expensive to enchant (unless your DM allows the Amulet of Natural Attacks), hard to make from special materials, and can't be two-handed. The cheapest way to improve AC is to wear armour, in which case you don't get Con to AC, and getting armour enhancements is more expensive.

Still, I like it.

AvatarZero
2010-07-17, 04:42 PM
I was looking for anyone who felt like it to just let me know their favourite base or prestige classes, anything you want to give me.

I pretty much love any class that lets me use magic stealthily. Being good at more than one thing normally requires a prestige class (unless you're a Cleric or a Druid, and are therefore good at melee and magic), such as the Arcane Trickster or the more powerful Unseen Seer from Complete Mage. Every multiclassed caster should take the Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Arcane. There are also the Beguiler from the Player's Handbook 2 and the Spellthief from Complete Adventurer, which are base classes. I've never been interested in the Bard. Something about singing at people.

balistafreak
2010-07-17, 04:47 PM
I've never been interested in the Bard. Something about singing at people.

While admittedly singing is "optimal" in that you don't need to dedicate a hand to hold an instrument in, I've heard hilarious stories about bards with two-handed axes.

Greenish
2010-07-17, 04:54 PM
While admittedly singing is "optimal" in that you don't need to dedicate a hand to hold an instrument in, I've heard hilarious stories about bards with two-handed axes.Perform (Percussion Instrument) and fight armoured foes?

KingoftheTrees
2010-07-19, 05:08 PM
If you're going to be a Radiant Servant of Pelor, might I suggest the Alternate Class Feature: Spontaneous Domain Casting from the Healing domain (found in the PHB2)? The class feature of the RSoP Empowers, then later Maximizes, and then at 10th level Maximizes AND Empowers spells cast from the Healing domain. If you spontaneously cast from there, you will be a walking healing battery and everyone will want to keep you alive. Then be sure to take the Glory domain and ruin any undead's day. :)

rojomoke
2010-07-19, 06:40 PM
Zephiros,
Pathfinder is the new 3.5-based set of rules published by Paizo, the company that used to publish Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
It's supposed to be a version 3.6, an improvement on the existing D&D instead of a completely new system like 4th edition.
See http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG

zephiros
2010-07-21, 12:07 AM
Hey guys, thanks for the advice on the PrCs and the Bard guide. There's some really awesome stuff there. I find myself agreeing with subject42 - at will and per-encounter abilities are indeed awesome. If anyone knows of other base of PrCs with these that haven't been mentioned, that'd be really neat.

Also, I was wondering if anyone might give a little more in depth info on Psions: eg how they stack up to comparable classes, how well they generally work, basic play mechanics.

I noticed that a level 20 Psion gets 343 power points per day. I know not all Psion powers cost 1 power point, but am I mistaken in thinking that's a lot? Does that stack up to be roughly equal to the wizard / sorcerer spells per day of each spell level? Is it still more "spells" per day than the typical caster classes? It seemed a bit more to me, but I didn't actually look through the Psionic abilities, so I can't say I know for sure.

Thanks guys.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 12:18 AM
Also, I was wondering if anyone might give a little more in depth info on Psions: eg how they stack up to comparable classes, how well they generally work, basic play mechanics.They're generally considered to be weaker than, say, wizards, clerics or druids, but still plenty powerful if done right.

I noticed that a level 20 Psion gets 343 power points per day. I know not all Psion powers cost 1 power point, but am I mistaken in thinking that's a lot? Does that stack up to be roughly equal to the wizard / sorcerer spells per day of each spell level? Is it still more "spells" per day than the typical caster classes? It seemed a bit more to me, but I didn't actually look through the Psionic abilities, so I can't say I know for sure.Psionic powers don't autoscale. A 10th level wizard will do more damage with a fireball from 3rd level spellslot than a 5th level wizard while having more of the spell slots. Psion wanting to do more damage (or in general get a greater effect) with a power has to use more power points as she levels up in order to keep increasing the effect.

zephiros
2010-07-21, 11:24 AM
Ah, thank you. I didn't read too deeply into psions, as the last time I had the time to I was making my Swordsage for a session that night, so I just looked over them and decided they were a bit too complex to make one in half an hour. :P

So more points for more power? That's a fairly interesting system. And again, anything related to per-encounter or at-will abilities, whether base class or PrC is of interest to me, as well as anything else similar to the Psion in terms of playstyle (Not necessarily psionic, just the same type of system).

Draz74
2010-07-21, 11:45 AM
So more points for more power? That's a fairly interesting system. And again, anything related to per-encounter or at-will abilities, whether base class or PrC is of interest to me, as well as anything else similar to the Psion in terms of playstyle (Not necessarily psionic, just the same type of system).

Psionics do effectively include some per-encounter stuff via the Psionic Focus system.

It also sounds like you'll be a big fan of my CRE8 system's magic rules, if/when I ever get them finished. (Uses Magic Points to augment spells, similar to psionics; but the Magic Points are on a per-encounter system.)

zephiros
2010-07-21, 12:48 PM
(Uses Magic Points to augment spells, similar to psionics; but the Magic Points are on a per-encounter system.)

That does sound interesting, let me know if it gets finished sometime.

Jallorn
2010-07-21, 12:52 PM
My favorites are the Factotum, the Beguiler, the Dread Necromancer, and the Warlock, in no particular order.

zephiros
2010-07-21, 03:24 PM
I've been seeing Factotum Beguiler and Warlock mentioned quite a bit (Dread Necromancer as well but I've seen one of those in action before). Can anyone give a quick rundown on the workings of those 3? Spells / abilities / etc?

Caphi
2010-07-21, 03:29 PM
I've been seeing Factotum Beguiler and Warlock mentioned quite a bit (Dread Necromancer as well but I've seen one of those in action before). Can anyone give a quick rundown on the workings of those 3? Spells / abilities / etc?

Brace for swordsaging.

Factotum is an int-based base class that, at base, is a skillmonkey, but also uses encounter-based "Inspiration Points" to gain one-time bumps to nearly anything, allowing it to perform nearly any task in the game, but mediocrely and on a limited basis (which can be solved by taking several instances of Font of Inspiration). Also, limited fake spellcasting and the ability at level 8 to generate extra standard actions.

Beguiler and dread necromancer are classes that cast like sorcerors, but automatically know an entire large themed spell list instead of cherry-picking a few spells from the entire sorc/wiz spell list. They can learn a few new spells from their specific schools through Advanced Learning (enchantment/illusion and necromancy, respectively) and have other class features that work with their intended roles.

Warlock is an arcane-ish thing that uses "invocations" which duplicate magical effects but aren't subject to actually being expended. The basic feature is the Eldritch Blast (Sp), which deals about 1/2-level d6s as a ranged touch and can be enhanced in various ways with some of the invocations.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-21, 04:04 PM
Factotum also gets 6 skill points per level, every skill ever as a class skill, a d8 for hit points, light armor proficiency and some decent weapons, sneak attack, the ability to ignore SR and DR with its physical attacks and the limited spell-like abilities it gets, and it can get its factotum level to every skill it has a rank in 1/day as an untyped bonus. It gets Int to attack, Int to damage, Int to AC, Int to saves, Int to all Str and Dex skills (and S/D ability checks, including trips, bull-rushes, initiative, and disarms), and at high levels, can mimic any (Ex) class ability of a level 15 character for a few minutes per day.

It's incredibly versatile, and a very high tier 3. I'd say it's the most versatile non-primary-caster in the entire game. They're amazing.

Also, Font of Inspiration is a feat that you can find here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606).

You may also want to check out all three classes in the Tome of Battle. They (and the psychic warrior) are the only primarily melee classes in tier 3, which is the sweet spot for balance in 3.5.

the humanity
2010-07-21, 04:06 PM
Edit: This may be kind of a weird question, but for those who read Erfworld, I'd like something like Jack (the Foolamancer). I know somebody mentioned Beguiler, does anyone else know of any classes that you could kind of roleplay as "the charismatic weirdo" type of thing, and that uses illusionary magic?

beguiler would really fit. I made a beguiler who's personality is a mix of the punisher, oprah, and the joker and the class is a perfect fit with death spells. as you could imagine, he is extremely bizarre, but he is ridiculously charismatic.

I'm imagining an illusion heavy character who spams mind blank, silent image, and glibness like nobody's business would be perfect for your guy.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-21, 04:07 PM
beguiler would really fit. I made a beguiler who's personality is a mix of the punisher, oprah, and the joker and the class is a perfect fit with death spells. as you could imagine, he is extremely bizarre, but he is ridiculously charismatic.

I'm imagining an illusion heavy character who spams mind blank, silent image, and glibness like nobody's business would be perfect for your guy.Oh the hugemanatee! (http://overthepylon.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/huge-manatee.jpg)

zephiros
2010-07-25, 11:52 PM
Thanks guys, that's a good portion of info.

What I'm looking for at the moment are casters, or caster like people (psionics, swordsage-type-things) that have a very versatile loadout, lots of spell variety, large numbers of spells known/per day if they even have those restrictions.

Just very spell-abled classes, I suppose.

TooManyBadgers
2010-07-26, 02:17 AM
One class I haven't seen mentioned is the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine.

It's kind of like a variant Druid with a lot less of the paperwork, less of the outrageous power and a slightly different focus. I believe it's tied with the Focused Specialist Wizard as the base class with the most spells/day.

It operates with a funky cross between the prepared and spontaneous casting systems - every day SSs choose spells from the Druid list which can be selected freely throughout the day. Despite the somewhat limited effects on that list, this means the SS (at mid- to high-levels anyway) has a great deal of versatility, both in choosing abilities for the day and in choosing abilities for specific circumstances.

It shares the Druid's framework [4 skill points/d8 HD/2 good saves] and has enough miscellaneous weapon and armor proficiencies to have something to contribute even without spells, it has class abilities to see, communicate with and blast spirits and it has a funky "spirit guide" that can concentrate for the SS at higher levels, making it especially capable with spells like Summon Elemental Monolith (C.Arcane).

It may be worth a look.

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edit:
For my favorite prestige classes, I have to say:

Battledancer (Oriental Adventures): This is a weird class. It doesn't get a whole lot of class abilities, it doesn't get a whole lot of skills, it doesn't get any casting. But it's a class that I've never had to say to myself "Huh. There is nothing here for me to do." The class's defining ability is moving really fast. In its first level, it doubles a character's landspeed. In 10 levels, it triples it. Then it gets some hefty skill bonuses in mobility skills and a few temporary weapon enchantment abilities and full BA... nothing particularly powerful, but all of it very fun.

Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel): A summoning class based on tricking demons to join you in your own [non-evil] causes. Frankly, it's not particularly powerful for a spellcasting class; a straightclassed wizard might even outsummon it at most levels, but it drips with fun fluff and minor abilities that make it something of a wash. Any way they're presented, Faustian pacts are fun [and so are classes that get to make them].

Hexer (Masters of the Wild): This class is just silly. It gives 10/10 levels divine casting, 10/10 Base Attack progression, d8 HD, access to 5 Wizard spells throughout its progression and a few hexes to toss at enemies. It requires a monstrous race, evil alignment and divine Lightning Bolt - meaning Adepts, Shugenja and Archivists are typically the only classes that can enter (without tricks, anyway), but it's a great class, especially for Witch-types.

BooNL
2010-07-26, 03:31 AM
Base classes:

Duskblade (Player's Handbook II): the gish-in-a-can. Simple and easy to play out of the box and oh so cool. If you ever want a touch attack, close combat focused spellcaster, consider this one first. Just remember to look for the right spell list (for some reason, they have two, an incomplete one and a finished one).

Favoured Soul (Complete Divine): the divine sorcerer. Weaker than a cleric in all respects, but in my mind this makes it all the more balanced. You have to choose between combat brute or caster monkey. They can do everything a cleric can do, only a bit more limited.
The class oozes flavour though. Chosen by a deity to serve as it's spokesperson. You gain proficiency+ specialization in the god's favoured weapon + you get wings at some point (way too late though).

Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic): the dragon-flavoured warlock. Instead of Eldritch Blasts you get a breath weapon which scales with your level. For the rest, it's very similar to a warlock.

Prestige Classes:

Master of Masks (Complete Scroundrel): alright, powerwise this class isn't all that good, it's very flavourful though. Basically you gain different abilities and bonusses depending on the mask you wear.

Halfling Outrider (Complete Adventurer): this class is meant for mounted characters. The beauty of it is that it advances both the paladin's mount plus the ranger/druid's anmal companion. This is the basis for the übermount build, if you combine it with the Devoted Tracker feat (which stacks both creatures into the same).

Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild): the druid/wizard theurge. This is a theurge class done right. It advances both wizard and druid casting and as a bonus merges your familiar and animal companion. Like the Ubermount build, this makes for a pretty strong creature.

Warweaver (Miniatures Handbook): buffs for all! The Warweaver is the ultimate buffing class. You are able to precast a number of buff spells and release them to your entire party whenever you want. So basically this turns 20 rounds of buffing into a single standard action. Awesomesauce.
Plus, if you combine it with Bard or some other class that gets arcane healing you can heal your entire party at the touch of a button as well!

zephiros
2010-07-27, 12:33 PM
Just a few classes that I've been looking at if anyone wants to give me their thoughts:

Binder - this one I just want to know how it works and don't exactly have time atm to read all the Pact Magic rules.

Disciple of Mammon
Mortal Hunter
Soul Eater
Celestial Mystic
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Master Transmogrifist
Contemplative
Entropomancer
Ultimate Magus
Frost Mage
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Walker in the Waste

That's all for now

Also wondering about Dragon Shamans and any other Draconic classes (Races of the Dragon / Draconomicon / Dragon Magic / whatever)

I know Favoured Soul was mentioned, it seems like it may allow more of a specific focus with ability points, which might be better than a cleric in that respect.

Also, I noticed in the epic level handbook that Epic Sorcerers get no spell advancement after level 20, Wizards get more spells known, but not more per day, whereas Epic Psions gain additional power points per level. I don't know if that would impact the balancing the way I'm thinking but that seems to me that epic Psions would get overpowered fast in the Epic levels.

Edit: Rogue-ish things are certainly welcome as well. I enjoy the stealth aspects a lot, I've looked at Shadowdancer slightly, but I have yet to read Complete Scoundrel so anything interesting from that area is good.

TooManyBadgers
2010-07-27, 02:12 PM
Binder - this one I just want to know how it works and don't exactly have time atm to read all the Pact Magic rules.
The Binder rules are pretty simple: You pick a vestige (or more at higher levels) and you get its abilities for the day. There are some minor sideline details - you have to make a check to avoid looking creepy or acting slightly strangely - but that's really the gist of it. It's a flavorful system, even though it was pretty poorly edited (the opening blurb on various vestiges' abilities rarely match with the explicitly listed abilities iirc). You could pretty easily tack its fluff onto the Cleric, if you wanted to avoid learning new rules.

Celestial Mystic isn't a bad class, but it doesn't get anything that really shines. I'm pretty sure Contemplative in Complete Divine is essentially the same class, but better.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has one of the most powerful defenses in D&D and is a full spellcaster. That means it gets pretty ridiculous pretty easily. The feats required for entry really suck though. Complete Mage has the Master Specialist prestige class, which can make then hurt a bit less (but you might want to watch out, because ****ty feats were probably intended to be the class's balancing factor).

Master Transmogrifist is worse than straight Wizards at polymorphing (it misses out on Shapechange, loses CL, and delays access Draconic Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object. It's also a paperwork nightmare. I'd avoid it.

Contemplative is like Cleric, but better at pretty much everything that matters. It can make for very powerful characters, even if it's not quite as overwhelming as Incantatrix/Planar Shepherd/Dweomerkeeper.

Entropomancer has a fun schtick, but is really weak at pretty much everything it does, whether that means casting, hiting things or using its class abilities. The level 5 ability is kind of neat, but it might be better to just cast Unluck (from the Spell Compendium).

Ultimate Magus can range from pretty good to pretty bad, depending on how it's used. 3rd edition D&D makes most Caster/Caster multiclasses bad choices for spellcasters (though the mere fact that they cast spells means mystic theurges and even poorly done ultimate magi still won't be weak exactly). Typically, if you can use the Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Arcane to keep the spontaneous class as far behind in level advancements as you can (meaning your prepared class loses as few caster level advancements as possible), you'll stay around the same power level as a straight-classed wizard, just with a few different tricks (and that's usually the goal).

Frost Mage is a fun little blasting/summoning class. I don't remember it getting anything too special, but it's a fun, thematic class that stays around the same power level as a Wizard. I don't remember much about it except that I liked how it worked.

Scion of Tet-Mu's that Paladin PrC that loses a bunch of casting levels and that requires you to be near a river to work, right? I don't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure you're going to want to avoid that class like the plague. The prerequisite feat is amazing though.

Walker of the Waste is a way neat class, especially for high-charisma characters like Clerics and Shugenja. Its caster level loss kind of sucks, but the abilities are stylish and its capstone is fantastic. This isn't an overpowering choice and it's not a crippling one - again, I'd consider it, depending on the character you want to play.

As far as Dragon-themed classes, you're probably going to want to avoid the Dragon Shaman. It's kind of crap.
If you want to make a breath-focused build, Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic is a very strong choice, especially with Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon.

If you want a more melee-focused character (who can still breathe fire or whatever else you want), try the Totemist from Magic of Incarnum with some of the soulmelds in Dragon Magic. The Incarnum system is very poorly defined in the book, but it's been explained so well so many times on the internet that I'm sure you'll be able to work it out after a couple minutes on Google.

I'm not familiar with the other classes, though.

zephiros
2010-07-31, 01:04 PM
Thanks for that, if anyone comes up with any other suggestions feel free to mention them.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 01:20 PM
I am actually a HUGE fan of mildly abusive cheese (and some gray rule reading)

I once played a Silverbrow Human Sorcerer who went into Dragon Disciple, then took Half-Dragon and Human Paragon (Since the DD capstone is actually the Half-Dragon template, it was funny). And since TECHNICALLY you are a dragon, you can be a Loredrake, thus canceling many of the disadvantages of DD. Again, this is VERY gray reading of the RAW.

Here's How it looked:

Race: Silverbrow Human (Later a Half-Gold Dragon Loredrake)
Class: Dragonblood Sorcerer (with a Drakken Penguin Familair) 4/Human Paragon 3/Gold Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3

The Drakken Penguin was the running gag. It was immortal (given to me by the God of Randomness) and always got into trouble. Think: a Cold-Breathing Penguin with a tophat who could tapdance. It was a riot!

zephiros
2010-07-31, 02:56 PM
Sounds like an awesome character :P

I really need to look more into how multiclassing works / what goes together / etc. etc.

All my characters so far have been single class (mainly cause our campaigns have never really finished....or the ones that do don't get very high level. I really hope we can play through to level 20 one of these days. As it is now, I think my highest character ever was level 10).

Edit:

As of now I'm mostly interested in things with per-encounter or particularly at-will abilities.

I'm also very interested in any draconic races and classes since there's such a wide array of them.

zephiros
2010-08-01, 03:59 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I'm really wondering...are there any classes where the bulk of the character's abilities are both at will and useful? It seems like to do so would be a bit overpowered but I'm sure there's something that they've spun a way I haven't thought of.

Also, if anyone knows of a class similar to the Master of Masks, I'd love to hear of any others like that.

I'll make a separate thread later dealing with the dragon-related things specifically, so don't worry about that stuff here unless you have a particularly awesome recommendation involving that.

Amphetryon
2010-08-01, 04:15 PM
Nobody's mentioned Psychic Warrior yet; they're my favorite SRD beat-stick. They also grapple about as well as possible.

Machiavellian
2010-08-01, 04:20 PM
To his question, I know nobody (or very few) players use the old Kingdoms of Kalamak, but Gladiator at lv1 gives you a free Exotic Proficiency of your choice

Galdor
2010-08-01, 05:02 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the advice on the PrCs and the Bard guide. There's some really awesome stuff there. I find myself agreeing with subject42 - at will and per-encounter abilities are indeed awesome. If anyone knows of other base of PrCs with these that haven't been mentioned, that'd be really neat.

Also, I was wondering if anyone might give a little more in depth info on Psions: eg how they stack up to comparable classes, how well they generally work, basic play mechanics.

I noticed that a level 20 Psion gets 343 power points per day. I know not all Psion powers cost 1 power point, but am I mistaken in thinking that's a lot? Does that stack up to be roughly equal to the wizard / sorcerer spells per day of each spell level? Is it still more "spells" per day than the typical caster classes? It seemed a bit more to me, but I didn't actually look through the Psionic abilities, so I can't say I know for sure.

Thanks guys.

I am personally a big fan of psions because they allow you to swap a large amount of low level powers for one high level power, and vice versa. Playing a telepath/thrallherd (although I have never tried it) sounds like a particularly good option.

For non-psionics, I like spellcasters, mostly sorcerer. I recently played a master transmogrifist (complete arcane) that worked out very well.

(sorry for backing up a bit)

JaronK
2010-08-01, 05:56 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I'm really wondering...are there any classes where the bulk of the character's abilities are both at will and useful? It seems like to do so would be a bit overpowered but I'm sure there's something that they've spun a way I haven't thought of.

Binder. All of your abilities are at will, and you can swap them around to decide what's most useful.


Also, if anyone knows of a class similar to the Master of Masks, I'd love to hear of any others like that.

So... Binder?

JaronK

Amphetryon
2010-08-01, 06:16 PM
To his question, I know nobody (or very few) players use the old Kingdoms of Kalamak, but Gladiator at lv1 gives you a free Exotic Proficiency of your choice

Just to clarify, I own and have DMed the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign world; is the Kingdoms of Kalamak you've referenced a couple of times the same one, published by Kenzer & Co, creators of Knights of the Dinner Table?

Greenish
2010-08-01, 06:30 PM
I am actually a HUGE fan of mildly abusive cheese (and some gray rule reading)

I once played a Silverbrow Human Sorcerer who went into Dragon Disciple, then took Half-Dragon and Human Paragon (Since the DD capstone is actually the Half-Dragon template, it was funny). And since TECHNICALLY you are a dragon, you can be a Loredrake, thus canceling many of the disadvantages of DD. Again, this is VERY gray reading of the RAW.

Here's How it looked:

Race: Silverbrow Human (Later a Half-Gold Dragon Loredrake)
Class: Dragonblood Sorcerer (with a Drakken Penguin Familair) 4/Human Paragon 3/Gold Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3Grey ruling? Homebrew, I'd say. I think we have discussed this character before, but I'll just point out that you can't take both half-dragon and human paragon classes, and half-dragon template doesn't qualify you for loredrake. Also, you lose way much casting.



For Master of Masks type Jack-of-all-trades, there's Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) in Races of Destiny.

Fouredged Sword
2010-08-01, 07:12 PM
If you want to use a class that will let you try out lots of stuff, try the chemelion class from Races of Destiny. It lets you be a wizard one day and a thief the next. Not hard for a factotum to get into, and great synergy. You need to be human and have able learner.

zephiros
2010-08-02, 01:10 AM
Upon reviewing Complete Divine, I noticed the Shugenja class, which appeared to me (again, I'm probably wrong, but it at least appeared) to have a somewhat high number of spells known for a spontaneous casting class.

He has a similar framework to the sorcerer in spells per day (ending with 6 of each level at level 20) and he gets a wide variety of spells known as well. I didn't check his spell list, and that may be the reason, but it seems like it could be a quite powerful class on first inspection? Then again, so do lots I suppose.

Draz74
2010-08-02, 01:15 AM
Sorry for the double post, but I'm really wondering...are there any classes where the bulk of the character's abilities are both at will and useful? It seems like to do so would be a bit overpowered but I'm sure there's something that they've spun a way I haven't thought of.

Dragonfire Adept. For goodness sake, Dragonfire Adept!

zephiros
2010-08-03, 03:08 PM
:P Dragonfire good, got it.

I also took a look at the Factotum, and it was worth the time to read, certainly.

I think their overall inspiration point count is a little low personally, but aside from that they seem quite intriguing.

Wait....I can't recall. The points for Factotum, are they per day, per encounter? Something else? Cause if it's per encounter then they're reasonably good, but per day, not so much.

If it's per day, I'd want at least one per level, closer to 30 or 35 by level 20.

Anyway, other things with at-will abilities are always welcome as are other Psionic ones. I've heard of both Soulknife and Spellthief a few times. Any merit to those?

Also, among the Binder's online vestiges, I've heard specifically of the Summon Monster vestige? If anyone has a link to that, that'd be appreciated, I wouldn't mind seeing what all the fuss is about.


Edit: I've seen the word "gestalt" thrown around a lot. No clue what it means. If someone might have the time to explain?

Amphetryon
2010-08-03, 03:16 PM
Behold the Gestalt rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). Now available in convenient SRD size.

Draz74
2010-08-03, 04:27 PM
Wait....I can't recall. The points for Factotum, are they per day, per encounter? Something else? Cause if it's per encounter then they're reasonably good, but per day, not so much.

It's per-encounter.

And there's an online feat that increases your number of Inspiration Points so that they won't run out so fast. "Font of Inspiration." Personally I think it's a poor feat -- too weak if you only take it once, too powerful if you take it over and over and over, and boring either way, since it just increases your existing class abilities rather than giving you new options. I usually prefer to make due with the basic amount of Inspiration, even if it seems to run out awfully fast.

zephiros
2010-08-04, 11:55 AM
Behold the Gestalt rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). Now available in convenient SRD size.

Oh wow. And now I see why everyone brings this up so much. Cause that is awesome. :P

As for Factotum...okay, that's at least decent on a per-encounter basis for sure.

Now here http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0 it is said that Binders with the "Summon Monster" Vestige are Tier 2, whereas those denied that are Tier 3.

(I know it's not necessarily an ultimate measure of power, but I'm interested to see this vestige regardless. I found this website http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718 using "Zceryll the Star Spawn" as a vestige, was wondering if that might be the one they mentioned.




And just reiterated from before: Shugenja
"Upon reviewing Complete Divine, I noticed the Shugenja class, which appeared to me (again, I'm probably wrong, but it at least appeared) to have a somewhat high number of spells known for a spontaneous casting class.

He has a similar framework to the sorcerer in spells per day (ending with 6 of each level at level 20) and he gets a wide variety of spells known as well. I didn't check his spell list, and that may be the reason, but it seems like it could be a quite powerful class on first inspection? Then again, so do lots I suppose."

And Psionics:
"Anyway, other things with at-will abilities are always welcome as are other Psionic ones. I've heard of both Soulknife and Spellthief a few times. Any merit to those?"

Amphetryon
2010-08-04, 12:05 PM
Shugenja Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4367.0).

Caphi
2010-08-04, 12:07 PM
since it just increases your existing class abilities rather than giving you new options.

You're a factotum. You already have all the options. Inspiration points are options. Not needing any new options because they're all in your pocket is the point of the class.

Draz74
2010-08-04, 12:34 PM
You're a factotum. You already have all the options. Inspiration points are options. Not needing any new options because they're all in your pocket is the point of the class.

If that's true, then the Factotum is an utter failure, because I could easily come up with 100 feats that I would like my Factotums to take besides Font of Inspiration. Each of them would give the Factotum an option that he can't get from just his native Inspiration-based abilities.

(Heck, I could probably come up with 40 from Tome of Battle alone ... all those Martial Study options ...)

zephiros
2010-08-04, 03:26 PM
In addition to the Binder's summon monster vestige, the seemingly large Shugenja spells known / per day limits, and basic descriptions of Soulknife and Spellthief, I was wondering, between Duskblade and Hexblade which is typically thought of as better, and if either really works. I'm not a big fan of the sword and sorcery in one concept, because I consider it more worthwhile to specialize in one or the other, but if anyone knows of it working well, I'd be interested to hear about them.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-04, 04:13 PM
I was wondering, between Duskblade and Hexblade which is typically thought of as better, and if either really works. I'm not a big fan of the sword and sorcery in one concept, because I consider it more worthwhile to specialize in one or the other, but if anyone knows of it working well, I'd be interested to hear about them.

The Hexblade's Hexes suck, its spells are kind of mediocre (almost no uses per day, so you're probably using wands of Whirling Blade and Polymorph for most of your magicness). On the other hand, its level 2-4 abilities are all pretty good, especially in Gestalt, where another class can provide the firepower.

The Duskblade on the other hand has more typical fighter defenses, stronger offense, maybe a smidge less versatility due to a lack of Polymorph, but it's much more what people typically look for in a Fighter/Wizard. It's elegant in its execution and works very smoothly with most parties. If you want a Fighter/Wizard that works, this is the easiest way of doing it well.

(Well -- the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) is also pretty easy to build, but it's also pretty easy to do wrong.)


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I...the seemingly large Shugenja spells known / per day limits...

Edit:
As far as the Shugenja is concerned, it has limited spells known and is held to a thematic selection. That really makes it pretty bad for a full spellcaster (but "bad for a full spellcaster" doesn't exactly mean a impotent character). A Sorcerer will probably be more versatile in its effects, a Spirit Shaman will have more versatility in day-to-day preparations and can easily have more spells per day.

The one really nifty thing the Shugenja has going for it is the Hexer prestige class in Masters of the Wild. It's a 10-level class with full casting, full BA, extra spells known from the Sorcerer and Wizard lists and a slew of Charima-based "Hexes." It was balanced under the assumption that Adept was the only class cpaable of casting Lightning Bolt as a Divine Spell, which the Shugenja makes an exception to.



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Edit2

...the Binder's summon monster vestige...

RE: The Binder:
Googling "binder vestige summon monster" gave me this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)as the first result. It's what you're looking for. If this puts the Binder into Tier 2, it's about as low in Tier 2 as a class can be. (Which isn't at all to say that it's weak or unplayable, just that it doesn't really have the game-ending combos that define Tier 2.)



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Edit3
...and basic descriptions of Soulknife and Spellthief...
The Soulknife is a class that summons a weapon. At low levels, when weapon choice matters, it's a ****ty weapon. At high levels, when characters are expected to have class abilities to help them kill things, the Soulknife's singular class ability is "having a weapon." It's not a well-designed class, but Hide and Move Silently alone are sometimes enough to make a character playable, so your mileage may vary.

To play an effective character who builds a weapon out of his/her brain, try a Warlock with the Eldritch Glaive Invocation (from Dragon Magic), an Incarnate with the Incarnate Weapon soulmeld (from Magic of Incarnum), a Psychic Warrior with the Soulbound weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) alternate class feature, a Druid with the Flame Blade spell or any character whose backstory involves building a weapon out of his/her brain.

Spellthief is a class that does Rogue-y things and who "borrows" spellcasting abilities from other characters. Spellthievery is a really niche ability, is hard to use effectively and advances at a pretty awful rate. There aren't many classes that can emulate the ability well*, though, so if you want to play with that idea, the spellthief class is probably the best to do it. It has decent skill points and Use Magic Device, so it's really hard to make an unplayable character out of the class, but it's hard to make it shine too.

One feat which really can re-determine how useful the spellthief is and how powerful the spelltheft ability can be is the Master Spellthief feat in Complete Scoundrel. It's basically required for all Spellthieves regardless of multiclassing because it allows stolen spells to be cast without spell failure and it bumps the spellthief's CL up to its class level (instead of the 1/2 level BS that is the default).

Depending on the reading of Master Spellthief, it could:
Let a Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 5 (for example), steal and recast spells as a level 10 spellthief. This makes a very effective way of playing the Spellthief as it was intended - as a skillmonkey, spellcaster and spell-stealer.
It could let a Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 5 steal and recast spells as a level 5 spellthief (stacking Spellthief levels and levels in classes that grant spellcasting). This makes the Spellthief workable as far as casting spells and doing skill-based stuff, but it really sets aside spellthieft as a viable option.
It could let a Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 5 steal spells as a 5th level Spellthief, but only recast them as a 1st level spellthief. This makes spelltheft absolute rubbish.


*Actually, Psionic characters get a similar ability by default. It's harder to execute the ability (targets have to be unconscious), but full-manifesting characters are typically stronger than Spellthieves by default. This relies on having a psionics-heavy world though, and that's rarely a safe assumption to make.

zephiros
2010-08-04, 05:58 PM
Well, that was...exceedingly comprehensive. :P Thanks for the tips.

In that case, I was wondering, of what I perceive to be the 4 major Psionic Classes (Ardent, Lurk, Psion, and Psychic Warrior) which is the most powerful in psionics alone (not combined with any combat features, just as far as psionics go.

Also, I was wondering, the aforementioned Tier listing places Erudites above Psions, but I can't see any conceivable reason to do so, since they have identical power points, and can use less powers.

Edit: In addition, any classes based around "luck" would be of interest.

Greenish
2010-08-04, 06:04 PM
In that case, I was wondering, of what I perceive to be the 4 major Psionic Classes (Ardent, Lurk, Psion, and Psychic Warrior) which is the most powerful in psionics alone (not combined with any combat features, just as far as psionics go.Psion is the "full caster" of them, the one relying most heavily on powers. Obviously, it's the most powerful manifester of the lot, followed by ardent, psywar and lurk.

Also, I was wondering, the aforementioned Tier listing places Erudites above Psions, but I can't see any conceivable reason to do so, since they have identical power points, and can use less powers.Spell-to-Power variant gets to use spells. Spells are strong.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938.0

Machiavellian
2010-08-04, 06:14 PM
I adore Malconvoker with a Master Specialist Conjurer. Want to summon Aspects of Devil Princes and Demon lords? Malconvoker can do that!

zephiros
2010-08-04, 06:16 PM
What is a Spell-To-Power Erudite? Is it in a book, is it third party material? I'm interested now. :P

Greenish
2010-08-04, 06:20 PM
What is a Spell-To-Power Erudite? Is it in a book, is it third party material? I'm interested now. :PAFC from Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

Draz74
2010-08-04, 06:56 PM
AFC from Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

And by "AFC" he means "ACF"; that is, Alternate Class Feature.

zephiros
2010-08-05, 11:48 AM
Alright, suppose it was only a matter of time before I came back to this, but I looked at Archivist a little while ago (can't say I remember it terribly well) but I couldn't see what it did particularly well, that everyone was talking about it.

Artificer is a bit more obvious imo, but I don't have the Eberron Campaign Setting, so if anyone felt like outlining that, that'd be nice as well I suppose.




Edit: I was also wondering if there were any melee classes that are considered to be Tier 2 or higher, and if there's any other deception-based classes, similar to the Beguiler?

Draz74
2010-08-05, 12:29 PM
Alright, suppose it was only a matter of time before I came back to this, but I looked at Archivist a little while ago (can't say I remember it terribly well) but I couldn't see what it did particularly well, that everyone was talking about it.

It can learn any spell from any Divine list.

So it can cast Heal better/earlier than the Cleric can, because it can cast it from a Level 5 slot instead of a Level 6 slot (using the Adept spell list). It can cast Lesser Restoration as a Level 1 spell instead of a Level 2 spell, because it learns the spell off the Paladin spell list. Same with Break Enchantment (L4 instead of L5, again from the Paladin list). Same with Commune with Nature (L4 off the Ranger list, whereas it's L5 on the Druid list, and not available to the Cleric at all unless he has the Animal domain).

Then there's spells that were supposed to be unique to the Paladin or Ranger, like Bless Weapon or Hunter's Eye. Yep, Archivist can learn those too. And while they're a little less flashy overall, don't forget all the Druid-only spells. (Hopefully the DM outright bans Venomfire, but still ... Control Winds? Tsunami?)

Then you get into all the good Arcane powerhouse spells that are on one Domain list or another. Enlarge Person? Strength Domain. Time Stop? Time Domain (IIRC). Mordenkainen's Disjunction? Magic Domain. Teleport? Travel Domain. Heck, even Polymorph is probably on some Domain list or another. And all Archivist-accessible.

reptilecobra13
2010-08-05, 12:31 PM
I know that people tend to be down on the Dragon Shaman because of the limited breath weapon progression, etc., but I think it really finds a place in gestalt. Pair it with barbarian and use the energy shield aura and your DR to deal more damage than you'll take. Also, raging boosts the DC of the reflex save against your breath weapon, since it boosts your Con score.

As for the factotum, it's fun regardless of gestalt. In gestalt, it synergizes well with any other Int based class (I would recommend Warblade for all kinds of full-round action goodness), but it's a blast on its own too. I play one who is a professor at a magical university but takes time off to adventure (a la Indiana Jones). I've got another in gestalt who is a factotum//warblade, and it's the closest I've ever seen to a build for Link. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-08-05, 12:32 PM
Heck, even Polymorph is probably on some Domain list or another. And all Archivist-accessible.

Polymorph I'm not sure about, but Polymorph Any Object is on the Trickery domain list.

Baleful Polymorph is on the Druid list.

Machiavellian
2010-08-05, 01:17 PM
I know that people tend to be down on the Dragon Shaman because of the limited breath weapon progression, etc., but I think it really finds a place in gestalt. Pair it with barbarian and use the energy shield aura and your DR to deal more damage than you'll take. Also, raging boosts the DC of the reflex save against your breath weapon, since it boosts your Con score.

Now THIS is genius! Dragon Shaman is an excellent class when paired with Barbarian. Combo with any rage modifiers (Such as Blazing and Frozen Rage from Sandstorm and Frostburn respectively) and choose either blue or black as your totem, and voila, you are immune to almost all of the major energies with a simple Aura of X Energy Shield and a Blazing Frozen Rage (Blazing gives you [Fire] subtype and Frozen gives you [Cold] subtype, thus giving you immunity to fire and ice).

Greenish
2010-08-05, 01:22 PM
And by "AFC" he means "ACF"; that is, Alternate Class Feature.Alternative Feature Classes! (I am unable to correctly spell the initials for anything, it seems.)


Alright, suppose it was only a matter of time before I came back to this, but I looked at Archivist a little while ago (can't say I remember it terribly well) but I couldn't see what it did particularly well, that everyone was talking about it.Spellcasting. Archivist gets up to 9th level spells, and can learn any divine spell ever. Magic wins the game.


Artificer is a bit more obvious imo, but I don't have the Eberron Campaign Setting, so if anyone felt like outlining that, that'd be nice as well I suppose.Artificer can break WBL into small pieces at will, and can make items that emulate spells.


Edit: I was also wondering if there were any melee classes that are considered to be Tier 2 or higherAll tier 1 can melee. Better than lower tiers. If you mean non-caster, no. Hitting things with a sharp stick won't get you higher than tier 3, no matter how good you are with the stick.

Draz74
2010-08-05, 01:36 PM
All tier 1 can melee. Better than lower tiers. If you mean non-caster, no. Hitting things with a sharp stick won't get you higher than tier 3, no matter how good you are with the stick.

Not necessarily completely true ... the Warmarked is a homebrew "hit with a stick" class that's supposedly Tier 2.

zephiros
2010-08-08, 01:59 PM
Just wondering, has anyone ever cross classed a Bard/Beguiler, Bard/Factotum or Rogue/Factotum? If so how did it work out for you?

Also, any significant cross-classing recommendations between any of the aforementioned and any psionic classes?

Greenish
2010-08-09, 08:46 AM
Not necessarily completely true ... the Warmarked is a homebrew "hit with a stick" class that's supposedly Tier 2.Yeah, I meant of the official classes.

Besides, warmarked is just 15 level class, or has it been updated?

zephiros
2010-08-10, 11:00 AM
Just wondering, has anyone ever cross classed a Bard/Beguiler, Bard/Factotum or Rogue/Factotum? If so how did it work out for you?

Also, any significant cross-classing recommendations between any of the aforementioned and any psionic classes?

Erm, same questions on cross-class?

balistafreak
2010-08-10, 11:04 AM
Mmmmk. Bards, Beguilers, and Factotums all receive a great deal of strength from their spellcasting progression. Combining/multiclassing some/most of that away is a terrible, terrible, idea.

Admittedly there's a whole lot of reasons to dip Factotum. Not Bard or Beguiler.

Any Psionic class is practically by definition a "spellcasting" class - they derive their greatest power through full progression. Anything else will hamstring your power to a laughable fraction of what it could be.

... so yeah, I dunno what you're going after, but it's completely unfeasible, lemme tell ya that. :smallwink: