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Andion Isurand
2010-07-15, 01:29 AM
In what ways would you help the fighter get more table time?

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To start, I would make the Weapon Groups varient would become the standard, and that would give fighters more weapon proficiencies than any other base class... even the rangers, paladins, barbarians etc.

I'd probably fold the fighter's Weapon Specialization tree and Weapon Focus tree into a single Weapon Study tree, which would apply its effects to every weapon group in which the fighter has Weapon Focus.

The bonus to attack rolls with every feat would help compensate BAB shifted towards Combat Expertise or Power Attack.

In addition, these fighter-only feats would be more flexible towards treasure gained.

I wrote these a while back, but wanted to post them somewhere.

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WEAPON STUDY [FIGHTER]
Choose a weapon group for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. Unarmed strike and grapple are also eligable groups.
Prerequisites: Proficiency and Weapon Focus (any group), fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls you make using weapons from each group you have taken Weapon Focus for. You can also make 1 additional attack of opportunity each round, if its made with one of these weapons. These bonuses stack with those from all other sources.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon Study as one of his fighter bonus feats.

IMPROVED WEAPON STUDY [FIGHTER]
Your focused use of weapons continues to progress.
Prerequisites: Proficiency and Weapon Focus (any group), Weapon Study, fighter level 8th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls you make using weapons from each group you have taken Weapon Focus for. You can also make 1 additional attack of opportunity each round, if its made with one of these weapons. These bonuses stack with those from all other sources, including previous Weapon Study feats.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Weapon Study as one of his fighter bonus feats.

GREATER WEAPON STUDY [FIGHTER]
Your focused use of weapons elevates your efficacy.
Prerequisites: Proficiency and Weapon Focus (any group), Weapon Study, Improved Weapon Study, fighter level 12th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls you make using weapons from each group you have taken Weapon Focus for. You can also make 1 additional attack of opportunity each round, if its made with one of these weapons. These bonuses stack with those from all other sources, including previous Weapon Study feats.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Weapon Study as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SUPERIOR WEAPON STUDY [FIGHTER]
Your focused use of weapons has arrived.
Prerequisites: Proficiency and Weapon Focus (any group), Weapon Study, Improved Weapon Study, Greater Weapon Study, fighter level 16th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls you make using weapons from each group you have taken Weapon Focus for. You can also make 1 additional attack of opportunity each round, if its made with one of these weapons. These bonuses stack with those from all other sources, including previous Weapon Study feats.
Special: A fighter may select Superior Weapon Study as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SUPREME WEAPON STUDY [FIGHTER]
Your focused use of weapons is renowned.
Prerequisites: Proficiency and Weapon Focus (any group), Weapon Study, Improved Weapon Study, Greater Weapon Study, Superior Weapon Study, fighter level 20th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls you make using weapons from each group you have taken Weapon Focus for. You can also make 1 additional attack of opportunity each round, if its made with one of these weapons. These bonuses stack with those from all other sources, including previous Weapon Study feats.
Special: A fighter may select Supreme Weapon Study as one of his fighter bonus feats.

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Fighter Modification in Progress

Lvl// BAB // Fort// Ref // Will// Special
01 // +01 // +02 // +00 // +00 // Combat Affinity, Bonus Feat
02 // +02 // +03 // +00 // +00 // Combat Technique
03 // +03 // +03 // +01 // +01 //
04 // +04 // +04 // +01 // +01 // Bonus Feat
05 // +05 // +04 // +01 // +01 // Combat Technique
06 // +06 // +05 // +02 // +02 //
07 // +07 // +05 // +02 // +02 // Bonus Feat
08 // +08 // +06 // +02 // +02 // Combat Technique
09 // +09 // +06 // +03 // +03 //
10 // +10 // +07 // +03 // +03 // Bonus Feat
11 // +11 // +07 // +03 // +03 // Combat Technique
12 // +12 // +08 // +04 // +04 //
13 // +13 // +08 // +04 // +04 // Bonus Feat
14 // +14 // +09 // +04 // +04 // Combat Technique
15 // +15 // +09 // +05 // +05 //
16 // +16 // +10 // +05 // +05 // Bonus Feat
17 // +17 // +10 // +05 // +05 // Combat Technique
18 // +18 // +11 // +06 // +06 //
19 // +19 // +11 // +06 // +06 // Bonus Feat
20 // +20 // +12 // +06 // +06 // Combat Technique


Combat Affinity (Ex): Reduce each ability score prerequisite by 2.for bonus feats you gain from levels in the fighter class.

Combat Technique (Ex): You become more deadly in combat. Each time you gain this class feature, you can choose either to take any feat from the list of fighter bonus feats for which you meet the prerequisite, or to improve the extra damage dealt by your existing sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike class feature by 1d8.

21 // +01 // +00 // +00 // +00 //
22 // +01 // +01 // +01 // +01 // Epic Bonus Feat
23 // +02 // +01 // +01 // +01 // Epic Bonus Feat
24 // +02 // +02 // +02 // +02 //
25 // +03 // +02 // +02 // +02 // Epic Bonus Feat
26 // +03 // +03 // +03 // +03 // Epic Bonus Feat
27 // +04 // +03 // +03 // +03 //
28 // +04 // +04 // +04 // +04 // Epic Bonus Feat
29 // +05 // +04 // +04 // +04 // Epic Bonus Feat
30 // +05 // +05 // +05 // +05 //

Epic Combat Technique (Ex): You become more deadly in combat. Each time you gain this class feature, you can choose either to take any epic feat from the list of epic fighter bonus feats for which you meet the prerequisite.

Improved Precision [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Sneak attack, skirmish or sudden strike class feature.
Benefit: Add an extra 1 point of damage for die rolled when rolling damage resulting from one or more of the prerequisite class features.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack to a maximum amount of additional damage per attack equal to your HD.

Temotei
2010-07-15, 01:51 AM
Your feats end up being about as powerful as Combat Reflexes and a couple Weapon Focuses and Weapon Specializations at higher levels. They're not that great because all they do is provide the fighter with another attack and better numbers.

That said, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8896502&postcount=1) are two archery feats the fighter might find useful, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7300170&postcount=1)'s an unarmed feat.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159429)'s a thread dedicated to compiling homebrew giving the mundane fighter (as well as other similar classes) more to work with.

For Valor
2010-07-15, 12:16 PM
Here's a new fighter (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class))...

and here are Races of War combat feats (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats) which make stabbing people in the face much easier.

Evard
2010-07-15, 07:52 PM
Fighter mod? Let them at each level choose one thing from another class to take on.

Mastery over battle: At each level chose one class skill of another class and the fighter gains that skill. This applies to spell like effects, animal companion, skills like sneak attack, even monk abilities, and lay on hands. Does not apply to arcane or divine magic. May not choose the same class twice in a row

These abilities stay the same unless the fighter chooses to "level them up" by taking the ability again when they get to the upgraded version....

Level 1: chooses sneak attack 1d6
Level 2: flurry of blows (fighter gets the attack not the unarmed damage type)
Level 3: chooses sneak attack 2d6
Level 4: Detect Evil

get it? hope there ain't something like this already

Temotei
2010-07-15, 07:56 PM
Fighter mod? Let them at each level choose one thing from another class to take on.

I choose wizard spellcasting.

Oh, and I'll lose a caster level to get wild shape.

Evard
2010-07-15, 09:08 PM
can't take arcane or divine magic, however you could take turn undead or familiar or even animal companion.

For Valor
2010-07-16, 01:46 PM
can't take arcane or divine magic, however you could take turn undead or familiar or even animal companion.

and Wildshape...

I think that's actually an interesting mechanic, but it needs to be applied conservatively. Really. You can take Bardic Knowledge and then Bardic Singing and strip the bard of a huge amount of his stuff in just a couple levels.

However, taking the Dred Necro's Lich Body ability for DR 2/- is fair.

hmmm... how to make a system like that.

Temotei
2010-07-16, 03:18 PM
I think that's actually an interesting mechanic, but it needs to be applied conservatively. Really. You can take Bardic Knowledge and then Bardic Singing and strip the bard of a huge amount of his stuff in just a couple levels.

Or wildshape, as mentioned.

You could also pretty easily take prestige class abilities, even if you're really far off from qualifying for them. This alternate rule is hideously broken if not checked constantly, which is, honestly, not supposed to be in a class. Anyway, I think there are a few classes (mimic, mimic, mimic, mimic redux, generalist) that can do this with more guidelines. If I remember correctly, one of those mimics works well enough, though the generalist is the only one that really gets what you're going for.

Frozen_Feet
2010-07-16, 03:52 PM
You might have found a link from some other thread mentioned, but there's my own incomplete feat fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154811).

Many problems of fighter are actually problems for all non-caster classes. Namely, the feats that should help them more suck in comparison to caster feats and abilities. Really, think what benefit a melee character gains from improved trip, and compare it to a benefit caster fets from a single spell like grease.

My take on the problem was to start at the bottom and rework core fighter feats into something that support each other and keep improving through a character's whole career. Unfortunately, I kinda lost steam half-way through. I intend to go back and finish the job later on, though. :smallredface: In any case, you might learn something from it.

Zeful
2010-07-16, 04:12 PM
I was going to give the fighter some class features, but some of them are very hard to word.

I was going to give the fighter an ability to disarm his opponents every time he's attacked in melee, and a scaling bonus to disarms as long as the fighter has one hand free.

I was also going to remove the "reach donut" for reach weapons in a fighter's hands.

I was also going to give the fighter a zone equal to his reach which makes it harder for enemies to move through, attack other characters, cast spells.

And if I could manage it, give each weapon group an ability that scales with level, that fighters can use naturally (though others may get a similar benefit through a feat).

Yora
2010-07-16, 06:07 PM
The very first thing a fighter just NEEDS is 4 skill points per level. Every class needs at least 4 skill points per level when you want to have a game that does not only consists of killing monsters.

If you think Dexterity-based fighters should work without multiclassing, add Balance and Tumble to the class skills. At least in asian martial arts movies fighter characters do it all the time. :smallbiggrin:

And a very simple variant that favors fighters the most, is just plain old E6. Yes, all it does is "limit spellcasters", but if you want to have that in your game, the bigger role of melee characters is a very nice side effect.

For Valor
2010-07-16, 06:20 PM
I was going to give the fighter some class features, but some of them are very hard to word.

I was going to give the fighter an ability to disarm his opponents every time he's attacked in melee, and a scaling bonus to disarms as long as the fighter has one hand free.

I was also going to remove the "reach donut" for reach weapons in a fighter's hands.

I was also going to give the fighter a zone equal to his reach which makes it harder for enemies to move through, attack other characters, cast spells.

And if I could manage it, give each weapon group an ability that scales with level, that fighters can use naturally (though others may get a similar benefit through a feat).

Any time he's attacked..? That's a little much. How about any time an opponent misses? That's strong, but not too OP:

"Each time an opponent attacks the fighter with a weapon that can be disarmed and misses, the fighter can make a disarm attempt as an immediate action. For each free hand the fighter has, he gains a bonus to his disarm attempts equal to 1/4 his level."

For the reach donut, the wording isnt' too hard. Keep in mind, though, this means all fighters will use Glaives and such:

"When a fighter uses a weapon with a reach greater than 5 ft., he may perform attack actions anywhere within that reach, regardless of restrictions from the weapon."

The reach=harder for other people to do things effect could be worded as such:

"All area within the fighter's reach is considered difficult terrain, and all spells that affect the fighter have an X% chance to fail. This spell failure chance does not stack with the reach areas of other fighters."

X would be something... I dunno...

And that scaling thing would be nice, but lots of work. I'd personally rather make the above abilities into scaling [combat] feats and apply them to the F&K feat system.

jiriku
2010-07-16, 06:36 PM
The biggest fighter buff I've designed is not for the fighter. It's for the feats. I compressed combat-oriented feat trees into a single feat that scales with base attack bonus, such that the fighter only needs to spend one feat to learn a combat style rather than 3-5. The changes are too exhaustive to list here in full, but here's a quick table to get the concept across.

{table=head]
REMOVED FEAT|
REPLACEMENT
Bounding Assault|Spring Attack
Combat Manifestation|Combat Casting
Double Hit|Two-Weapon Fighting
Endurance|Toughness
Expeditious Dodge|Dodge
Great Cleave|Cleave
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization|Heavy Armor Optimization
Greater Kiai Shout|Kiai Shout
Greater Manyshot|Manyshot
Greater Mighty Roar|Mighty Roar
Greater Multigrab|Multigrab
Greater Multiweapon Fighting|Multiweapon Fighting
Greater Powerful Charge|Powerful Charge
Greater Two-Weapon Defense|Two-Weapon Defense
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting|Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Focus|Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization|Weapon Specialization
Heavyweight Wings|Dragon Wings
Improved Combat Expertise|Combat Expertise
Improved Dragon Wings|Dragon Wings
Improved Flyby Attack|Flyby Attack
Improved Mounted Archery|Mounted Archery
Improved Multiattack|Multiattack
Improved Multiweapon Fighting|Multiweapon Fighting
Improved Precise Shot|Precise Shot
Improved Rapid Shot|Rapid Shot
Improved Shieldmate|Shieldmate
Improved Toughness|Toughness
Improved Two-Weapon Defense|Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting|Two-Weapon Fighting
Mobility|Dodge
Rapid Blitz|Spring Attack
Sand Spinner|Sand Dancer
Uncanny Scent|Improved Scent[/table]

Zeful
2010-07-16, 07:47 PM
Any time he's attacked..? That's a little much. How about any time an opponent misses? That's strong, but not too OP:

"Each time an opponent attacks the fighter with a weapon that can be disarmed and misses, the fighter can make a disarm attempt as an immediate action. For each free hand the fighter has, he gains a bonus to his disarm attempts equal to 1/4 his level." I haven't refined most of them yet but yeah, that works, though I won't write it up like that.


For the reach donut, the wording isnt' too hard. Keep in mind, though, this means all fighters will use Glaives and such:

"When a fighter uses a weapon with a reach greater than 5 ft., he may perform attack actions anywhere within that reach, regardless of restrictions from the weapon."I was thinking of giving them the Short Haft feat as a bonus feat at level 2 or 4 (which allows one to strike adjacent enemies with most reach weapons).


The reach=harder for other people to do things effect could be worded as such:

"All area within the fighter's reach is considered difficult terrain, and all spells that affect the fighter have an X% chance to fail. This spell failure chance does not stack with the reach areas of other fighters."

X would be something... I dunno...The difficult terrain bit is nice, but I was going to think about something that makes the fighter particularly dangerous within his reach, possibly an AC reduction, I'd also make it harder to cast period (including casting defensively) but break up the ability to cover about 4 levels.


And that scaling thing would be nice, but lots of work. I'd personally rather make the above abilities into scaling [combat] feats and apply them to the F&K feat system.

Feats are good, but everyone can use them, they should be pretty generic. Class features, while they restrict the concept of a class, are superior to feats. Further,

lightningcat
2010-07-16, 11:53 PM
These are the modification I've made to the fighter. Most of these come from other d20 games, or other people's "fixes". At this time, the higher levels have not been playtested.

General Modifications
1) Action Points
2) Weapon Groups
3) Set Criticals: no rolling to confirm criticals
4) Bonus Damage: Any attack roll that exceeds the target's AC by 5 or more deals additional damage. You gain a +2 bonus to damage for each 5 that your attack roll exceeds the AC of your opponent. This bonus damage is not further increased on a critical hit.
5) Stunts: an action in combat that falls outside the normal bounds of the rules. These rules are a tool to help you come up with imaginative, clever, and exciting actions in combat. If you can imagine it, the stunt rules allow you to attempt it.
6) Pathfinder's Combat Manuevers
7) Iterative Attacks based on weapon size

Fighter Modifications
Weapon Groups: Basic, plus any other five. Fighters may instead learn an Exotic Weapon Proficiency in place of a Weapon Group.
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
Combat Prowess: Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list, choosing another one of these options (the same choice may be made multiple times).
Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items, or Strength-based skill checks to perform an offensive or maneuver stunt.
Armor Training (Ex): Whenever the fighter is wearing armor, he gains an additional +1 armor bonus to his armor class, reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), or increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1 (each chosen separately, the same choice may be made multiple times).
Battle-hardened (Ex): A fighter gains a +1 bonus to either his Combat Maneuver Bonus or his Combat Maneuver Defense.
Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks and Dexterity-based skill checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces or when attempting to perform a stunt.
Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march. He also gain +1 hit point.
Tactical Insight (Ex): A fighter can read combat situations better, giving the character a +1 bonus on Wisdom checks, Perception checks and Sense Motive checks.
Inspired Leadership (Ex): A fighter gains a +1 bonus when making morale checks and rally checks, (see Heroes of Battle). The fighter also gains a +1 to his Leadership score.
Warcry (Ex): The fighter learns to better use his force of personality as a weapon, giving the character a +1 bonus on Charisma checks, Diplomacy checks and Intimidate checks.
Active Assault (Ex): A 5th level Fighter can flawlessly place himself where he is most needed in combat. He may take a 5' step as an immediate action. This is in addition to any other movement he takes during his turn. The fighter also threatens all enemies within reach of any of his melee weapons.
Combat Mastery (Ex): A fighter's expertise in the art of war overshadows lesser wanderers on the martial path. At 9th level, all static bonuses granted by feats on the Fighter Bonus Feat list to AC, DR, attack rolls, damage, initiative, and saving throws are multiplied by 1.5, rounding up; and at 17th level this changes to x2. (This means feats like Weapon Focus, Dodge or Improved Grapple are applicable, but Combat Expertise and Power Attack are not.)
Lunging Attacks (Ex): The battlefield is an extremely dangerous place, and 11th level Fighters are expected to hold off Elder Elementals, Hezrous, and Hamatulas. Fighters of this level may add 5' to the reach of any of their weapons, he may still attack enemies in the normal range of the weapon.
Adrenalin Rush (Ex): A 13th level Fighter may take one extra Immediate Action between his turns without sacrificing a Swift action during his next turn.
Array of Stunts (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may take an extra Swift Action each round.
God of War (Ex): By 20th level, a fighter's deeds are well known and his sheer presence causes terror among his foes. Lesser opponents flee at sight and spellcasters find it hard to muster concentration to use their abilities. The fighter gains Frightful Presence with a range of 10 feet * their Charisma modifier against all hostile creatures. This ability is triggered every time the fighter attacks someone. All creatures with fewer Hit Dice than the fighter has are forced to make a Will saving throw against (10 + HD + Cha modifier) or become frightened for 5d6 rounds. Those who succeed the saving throw become immune to this ability for the next 24 hours. In addition, all hostile actions requiring concentration (such as spellcasting or manifesting) taken within that range fail unless the character wins an opposed Concentration check against the fighter's Intimidate check.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow, that he has previously chosen for the Weapon Specialization Feat. Any attacks made with that weapon have their critical hit damage multiplier increased by 1 (a 2 becomes a 3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

Hyooz
2010-07-17, 12:06 AM
I stapled the Warblade over the fighter pages.

tordirycgoyust
2010-07-17, 12:59 PM
Many problems of fighter are actually problems for all non-caster classes. Namely, the feats that should help them more suck in comparison to caster feats and abilities. Really, think what benefit a melee character gains from improved trip, and compare it to a benefit caster fets from a single spell like grease.

This was a bit of a lightbulb for me... the idea that a feat is an at will spell. Given that spells are power, I propose giving non-casters feats at a rate similar to, say a wizard's spells known(including paying to learn more). I don't know how to balance this, but it can easily be drastically tweaked to taste



Then again, you can just replace with ToB.., but I don't think that's the point of th excersize

Yora
2010-07-17, 02:05 PM
But what would a fighter do with all those feats? More of something that already isn't very powerful won't make him more useful.

For Valor
2010-07-17, 03:14 PM
I stapled the Warblade over the fighter pages.

Here, take this. It's the internet. You deserve it.