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View Full Version : Converting Level Adjustment to Dead Levels



Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 05:04 AM
How would the playground feel to this adjustment in lieu of UA Level Buy-off:

Dead Level - HD 1d6; Base Attack Average; Saves One Good, Two Poor; Skill points 4 + Int. Gain proficiency in one simple weapon if the Dead Level occurs at first level. Class skills as a Commoner.

Level Adjustment + 1 - At Level 1, the character takes a dead level.

Level Adjustment + 2 - At Level 1 and 3, the character takes a dead level.

Level Adjustment + 3 - At Level 1, 3, and 5, the character takes a dead level.

Ect, ect. Characters using this rule earn experience at the same rate as other character without a level adjustment. Their level adjustment gives them a bit of a boost right out of the gate, but the way I see it, it sort turns the abilities granted them by their template/race into class abilities over time.

This would give higher level adjustments the ability to survive through early levels of the game, and they would be able to keep up with the rest of the party (somewhat) without having to completely rely on their template/racial abilities. Plus, heavily templated characters don't have to worry about effects that target creatures with low hit die, and their hit die will be increased when used to power class/race features. Also, casters can now take the Practiced Spellcaster feat to at least recoup SOME of the lost spellcasting power due to their level adjustment.

Another suggestion posed - Adding base racial HD a similar intervals instead of Dead Levels. Admittedly, I was looking at this problem strictly from a character standpoint, assuming that most players would be humanoid. I'm not sure how all this would work when you factor monsters into the equation.

Thoughts? I'm sure this won't work in every circumstance, but what do you think about it as a general adjustment?

EDIT - Added in class skills.

EDITX2 - I would totally heart someone if they built a few simple characters using this variant to demonstrate the functionality or brokenness of the concept.

Grumman
2010-07-15, 05:09 AM
Is there a reason you went for the average instead of the minimum benefits of each level? D6s instead of D4s, 3/4 B.A.B. instead of 1/2, 4+Int skill points instead of 2+Int, etc.

Without having given it much thought, I'd try giving the LA the same benefits as Commoner levels. It also makes the one-sided LA in gestalt (which I think works well) work in exactly the same way it does now.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 05:16 AM
Is there a reason you went for the average instead of the minimum benefits of each level? D6s instead of D4s, 3/4 B.A.B. instead of 1/2, 4+Int skill points instead of 2+Int, etc.

I was actually shooting for just below average across the board, though B.A.B. doesn't really give me the option to do that. The way I see it, without class abilities attached to those levels, the other aspects of gaining a level really aren't all that great. I'm looking at this like those dead levels are like playing a slightly improved commoner who gets class abilities from their level adjustment. Making Dead Levels only grant the bare minimum nerfs the variant IMHO.

That and I think that every class should get at least 4 skill points per level minimum.

EDIT - I was thinking of a wizard when I decided on the benefits. Wizards have d4 HD, one good save, 2 skills points, a few more proficiencies, skills that match their class, a familiar, scribe scroll, and spellcasting (the most powerful of abilities in D&D). Nothing someone would gain from taking a level adjustment would ever be better than spellcasting, and while wizards are at the bottom of the barrel with HD and skill points, they still get a few other goodies.

Aotrs Commander
2010-07-15, 05:22 AM
My personal take on LA was to simply wipe it out altogether and make a monster character class, basically combing "race" and "class" features at 1st level and go from there, scattering stat boosts and stuff as "class" features. (And giving the classes a HD/level, unlike the monster classes in, say Planar Handbook or Libris Mortis).

Draxar
2010-07-15, 05:22 AM
Off the top of my head, a LA +3 creature is going to still be rather strong at levels 1 and 2, as he has whatever shiny powers LA +3 gives him, and he's only a level behind.

Grumman
2010-07-15, 05:25 AM
Making Dead Levels only grant the bare minimum nerfs the variant IMHO.
It nerfs the variant, but it's still quite a bit better than what you get with the official rules.


That and I think that every class should get at least 4 skill points per level minimum.
I agree, but that's a different houserule entirely. Giving these faux-commoner levels +2 skill points per level should wait until you choose to apply +2 skill points per level across the board.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 05:25 AM
Off the top of my head, a LA +3 creature is going to still be rather strong at levels 1 and 2, as he has whatever shiny powers LA +3 gives him, and he's only a level behind.

Yes, but, at least he's playable in a 4th - 6th level game now. Granted, he'll be more powerful out of the gate, but other characters will have many more options to play with(i.e. REAL class features). The L3 character will almost universally have to rely on his shiny powers to win (which he probably will), but at least he won't have 6-12 HP for four straight levels, no skills to speak of, static saves, ect...


I agree, but that's a different houserule entirely. Giving these faux-commoner levels +2 skill points per level should wait until you choose to apply +2 skill points per level across the board.

I edited my above post with my reasons if you are interested. Most characters who take level adjustments will be non-casters, so I like giving melee nice things.

Zovc
2010-07-15, 05:30 AM
There is such a thing as racial hit dice, which are basically what you are thinking of. The game designers saw some reason to have Level Adjustments and RHD. Making them one in the same seems harmless enough to me, but they are, by default, different things.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 05:37 AM
There is such a thing as racial hit dice, which are basically what you are thinking of. The game designers saw some reason to have Level Adjustments and RHD. Making them one in the same seems harmless enough to me, but they are, by default, different things.

I'm basically looking to convert level adjustment into a form of RHD, but unlike RHD, Dead Levels can be gained over time (yes, I'm aware of monster classes, different discussion). This is more of an ease of use type thing. I don't want to have to build a monster class for every single possible circumstance. This works as a quick fix.

On the subject of the game designers: Maybe they just didn't think too hard on it. You know, like they didn't think too hard about the suck that is the fighter.

Zovc
2010-07-15, 05:46 AM
I'm basically looking to convert level adjustment into a form of RHD, but unlike RHD, Dead Levels can be gained over time (yes, I'm aware of monster classes, different discussion). This is more of an ease of use type thing. I don't want to have to build a monster class for every single possible circumstance. This works as a quick fix.

On the subject of the game designers: Maybe they just didn't think too hard on it. You know, like they didn't think too hard about the suck that is the fighter.

There already are Racial Hit Dice for every creature type. This is much "easier to use" than designing a one-size-fits-all "dead level". You don't have to build monster classes, nor did I suggest you should.

I'm not sure whether or not the game designers were thinking at all. :smallsigh:

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 05:55 AM
There already are Racial Hit Dice for every creature type. This is much "easier to use" than designing a one-size-fits-all "dead level". You don't have to build monster classes, nor did I suggest you should.

I'm not sure whether or not the game designers were thinking at all. :smallsigh:

Um...what? I think we're not connecting on the same point here. I'm not looking to adjust existing RHD. I'm only adjusting level adjustment. Look at the Celestial template. A creature that gains this template doesn't have any natural racial HD, only a +2 level adjustment.

On a 4th level Fighter with this variant:
2d10 + 2d6 HD or 17 average w/o Con
(4+Int)x4 starting skill points + 8+(Intx3) from other levels or 24 SP w/o Int
Base attack +3
+3 Fort +0 Ref +0 Will (with an additional +2 to a save of his choice)
4 feats (2 being fighter feats)
A smite evil attack +4 vs evil
5 resist cold, acid, and elec
5/magic DR
Darkvision 60ft
Spell Resist of 9
He is also playable in a 4th level game(and beyond), where before he would very likely not be able to perform his role up to the rest of the party's standards.

Compare this to the same fighter using standard rules, and you'll see a decent difference in power and playability at 4th level.

RHD don't really have anything to do with this, other than I'm creating faux racial HD by removing the level adjustment.

Edited for readability.

Zovc
2010-07-15, 06:06 AM
Um...what? I think you miss my point. I'm not looking to adjust existing RHD. I'm only adjusting level adjustment. Look at the Celestial template. A creature that gains this template doesn't have any natural racial HD, only a +2 level adjustment.

I actually understand exactly what you're trying to do. BUT, instead of using your dead levels, for example, replacing LA +2 with 2 Dead Levels, replace LA +2 with two levels of Humanoid, Outsider, Aberration, or whatever racial hit dice is appropriate.

That was my point, do you understand why I think it's pointless to make an one-size-fits-all dead level now?

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 06:16 AM
I actually understand exactly what you're trying to do. BUT, instead of using your dead levels, for example, replacing LA +2 with 2 Dead Levels, replace LA +2 with two levels of Humanoid, Outsider, Aberration, or whatever racial hit dice is appropriate.

That was my point, do you understand why I think it's pointless to make an one-size-fits-all dead level now?

Now I think I understand your point. Why did you say that in your first post? :smallsmile: I wasn't really sure what you were talking about.

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this. I'll need to think about it some more.

Zovc
2010-07-15, 06:30 AM
If you want 'balance', you can always use levels of commoner. I meant for you to give racial hit dice appropriate to the race, not the template (that would be complicated and even more awkward, since you would have to arbitrarily assign each template a RHD).

Apologies for having a bit of a short fuse. I'm rather deprived of sleep at the moment.

Edit:


Now I think I understand your point. Why did you say that in your first post? :smallsmile: I wasn't really sure what you were talking about.

I think if you go back and read my first post, you'll see this is exactly what I was trying to say. Albeit much less thoroughly.

Fortuna
2010-07-15, 06:31 AM
I would like to point out that both RHD and commoner levels are flat-out better than LA. I think that the general consensus is LA+1 is about the same as 2 RHD.

Grumman
2010-07-15, 06:35 AM
EDIT - Again, I may not be clear on your point. Are you saying the RHD is determined from the template, or the natural type of the templated creature? If the second, I can get down with that.
I can't. It means the Planetouched suddenly become a great base to stack templates onto, since every point of LA just converts a class level into a full BAB skillmonkey level, as well as granting whatever benefits come from the template. And suddenly there's no reason to play a Barbarian when a Dragon does everything better: why rage for +8 Str when you can get +14 constantly?

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 06:36 AM
If you want 'balance', you can always use levels of commoner. I meant for you to give racial hit dice appropriate to the race, not the template (that would be complicated and even more awkward, since you would have to arbitrarily assign each template a RHD).

Apologies for having a bit of a short fuse. I'm rather deprived of sleep at the moment.

Edit:



I think if you go back and read my first post, you'll see this is exactly what I was trying to say. Albeit much less thoroughly.

Yeah, we're both manning that boat. If I wasn't working on something, I'd be unconscious right now. This is just a nice diversion.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 06:39 AM
I can't. It means the Planetouched suddenly become a great base to stack templates onto, since every point of LA just converts a class level into a full BAB skillmonkey level, as well as granting whatever benefits come from the template. And suddenly there's no reason to play a Barbarian when a Dragon does everything better: why rage for +8 Str when you can get +14 constantly?

See, this is why I edited that whole post away. I was looking at this from a generally humanoid PC standpoint. K, I'm back on my Dead Level bandwagon. Least it's predictable across the board. :smallbiggrin:

Zovc
2010-07-15, 06:42 AM
See, this is why I edited that whole post away. I was looking at this from a generally humanoid PC standpoint. K, I'm back on my Dead Level bandwagon. Least it's predictable across the board. :smallbiggrin:

Although 'levels in commoner instead' seems like a worse (probably more appropriate) solution. :smallcool:

Then again, Random_Person has a pretty good point.

Jergmo
2010-07-15, 07:43 PM
There's this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm) variant rule, if you hadn't seen it already - if you don't have a morbidly high level adjustment, I'd think you'd be better off buying off LA.

Natael
2010-07-15, 09:49 PM
For a lot of things that have both RHD and LA, I figure that the "dead" levels of the RHD tend to balance out the LA.

For example, the ogre, he had 4 rdh and 2 la, but a supposed cr of 3, meaning if a player is using it, the ogre is apparently a 6th level character, but if they are being fought, they are some how only the equivalent of a 3rd level character. Knock off the LA, the ogre has 4 rhd, which are all pretty dead levels, sure they get extra str, con, and natl ar, but they lose dex, int, and cha, and abilities like rage or even the fighter's extra feats (as minimally good as they are). He might be a bit tougher, but I don't see him significantly overpowering a level 4 human warblade, let alone a cleric or wizard. Besides, unless the party expends some magic hiding him, the party'll likely suffer some social penalties for having an ogre running around with them.

Something like a vampire is much more difficult, as you have a +8 LA thing that is only supposedly a +2 CR. Vampire gets a lot if you merely knock it down to +2 LA (though if you completely ban LA buy off, you could be closer to get away with it), granted they have some fairly significant weaknesses (especially that whole day light thing) as well. Without LA buy off, I'd probably be pretty happy only giving them +3 LA, and even then, not sure if I'd have a lot of enthusiastic takers.

Coidzor
2010-07-15, 10:07 PM
Gimps anyone with skills for quite a while though, due to the dead level getting the 1st level multiplication bonus.

Make them have to take the 1st one at 2nd level, or else give the 1st level multiplication bonus to their first class level.

Pechvarry
2010-07-15, 11:05 PM
I've always kinda hated LE buyoff (it's not fair that my template is making me weaker, so I should get to be stronger than everyone else at no penalty once the XP tables catch me up to the party), but I understand it's a lesser of 2 evils. Anyway, I think this is an interesting approach.

Perhaps you could give it minimum specs across the board, or at least Commoner stats, but have some method of increasing them? Maybe spending a feat (which you're gaining because of your dead HD) to choose one aspect of your chassis to improve, or simply coming up with an arbitrary number of attributes you can change. For instance, you have commoner stats + 2 "improvement points" which you could spend one to up BAB progression a step, or choose a save to make strong, etc. I don't know a clean, uncomplicated way to do that, but I thought I'd throw it out in case another playgrounder wants to work on it.

Also: just straight commoner HD is fantastic compared to the other options. Especially if you're playing Fractional BAB/Saves (as you should be!).

Also also: to Coidzor, I like the idea of saying your x4 skills (and perhaps your level 1 feat) come at actual-class level 1.