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WarKitty
2010-07-15, 12:03 PM
Are the sudden metamagic feats in Complete Arcane any good? I'm putting together a low-level druid and wondering if Sudden Extend would be worth it, especially as the prereq to energy substitution.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-15, 12:08 PM
Here's the thing...a lotta people dislike them, because you can't use them frequently. And yeah, that's a problem for stuff you use as your bread and butter. However, if you rarely mess with metamagic, a 1/day toy you can slap on anything without prior preparation or level adjust is handy.

It's a great way to splash metamagic ability without investing in it heavily.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-15, 12:11 PM
Yeah, it should be pretty cool, especially if you plan on taking feats branching from it. Extended summons would be nice. :)

Yorrin
2010-07-15, 12:15 PM
I'm a fan, personally. When I roll a Wizard I usually find room for at least a sudden maximize so that my highest level spells get a a little boost that wouldn't be otherwise available without serious cheese.

I don't have much experience with the Druid spell list, but I'm sure that a Sudden Extend would be great for SNA. So yeah, I say go for it.

WarKitty
2010-07-15, 12:15 PM
Here's the thing...a lotta people dislike them, because you can't use them frequently. And yeah, that's a problem for stuff you use as your bread and butter. However, if you rarely mess with metamagic, a 1/day toy you can slap on anything without prior preparation or level adjust is handy.

It's a great way to splash metamagic ability without investing in it heavily.

I'm particularly thinking of it to get me through the first few levels, where sacrificing one of my two higher-level spots for a metamagic feat might not be worth it.

That and the occasional "You did what!" moment with the DM where I *really* need that silent spell...

Tyndmyr
2010-07-15, 12:19 PM
Yeah, if you get to the point where you find yourself with enough casting per day to want more of it, down the line, you can always retrain to the normal version. Easy, and not hard fluff-wise.

As a DM, I've started allowing sudden versions of most metamagics. I've got players that like them, and only rare MMs are completely imbalanced with them. Sure, someone who blows them all at once can get a great alpha strike....but then they're dry.

PId6
2010-07-15, 01:21 PM
If you want longer SNAs, just take the Ashbound feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. It doubles the duration of SNA spells, and gives the summons a +3 luck bonus to attack as well. Much better than 1/day Sudden Extend.

I really dislike the Sudden Metamagic feats. As 1/day, they're incredibly underwhelming considering other, much better feats you can take, and the best one (Sudden Quicken) has such terrible prereqs that you'll never ever get it. Only Sudden Maximize is potentially worth taking; free +1 or +2 once per day is not worth a feat.


As a DM, I've started allowing sudden versions of most metamagics. I've got players that like them, and only rare MMs are completely imbalanced with them. Sure, someone who blows them all at once can get a great alpha strike....but then they're dry.
Sudden Persist. Yummy.

Tar Palantir
2010-07-15, 01:25 PM
I find Sudden Silent and/or Sudden Still far more effective than their normal variants. Other than that, meh. They're not terrible, but there are much better options.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-15, 01:27 PM
One thing you might consider is another feat to complement the "Sudden" feats. Maybe "Improved Sudden X" which adds and 2-3 uses of it. Or "Divine Sudden Metamagic", allowing you to burn Turn Undead attempts to Sudden.

Caphi
2010-07-15, 01:28 PM
Or "Divine Sudden Metamagic", allowing you to burn Turn Undead attempts to Sudden.

Isn't this regular Divine Metamagic?

senrath
2010-07-15, 01:31 PM
If you want longer SNAs, just take the Ashbound feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. It doubles the duration of SNA spells, and gives the summons a +3 luck bonus to attack as well. Much better than 1/day Sudden Extend.


Just note that the fluff of Ashbound requires you to hate (or at least dislike, I can't remember which) all arcane casters. Of course, this might not impact taking it (especially if your DM is one of the ones that allows refluffing).

Optimystik
2010-07-15, 01:32 PM
Isn't this regular Divine Metamagic?

Yep. *Pats Mark*

Tyndmyr
2010-07-15, 01:38 PM
Sudden Persist. Yummy.

It's great. It occupys a great spot...see, persist normally has too high of an adjust to ever be useful....unless you use reducers. At which point, it becomes ridiculously broken.

At 1/day, it's reasonable.



And yeah, the prereqs for sudden quicken make it unlikely to be useful.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-15, 01:52 PM
Yep. *Pats Mark*

Too many gorram books to keep track of. :smallbiggrin:

WarKitty
2010-07-15, 02:57 PM
If you want longer SNAs, just take the Ashbound feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. It doubles the duration of SNA spells, and gives the summons a +3 luck bonus to attack as well. Much better than 1/day Sudden Extend.

I really dislike the Sudden Metamagic feats. As 1/day, they're incredibly underwhelming considering other, much better feats you can take, and the best one (Sudden Quicken) has such terrible prereqs that you'll never ever get it. Only Sudden Maximize is potentially worth taking; free +1 or +2 once per day is not worth a feat.


Sudden Persist. Yummy.

I'm not sure Eberron is allowed in this world. I do need one metamagic feat to qualify for Energy Substitution, but I'm not sure a non-sudden version would be worth burning one of my two second-level slots for. Especially since I'm only getting 2 or 3 2nd-level spells per day.

That and I do have to get along with the arcane casters in the party.

PId6
2010-07-15, 03:05 PM
I'm not sure Eberron is allowed in this world. I do need one metamagic feat to qualify for Energy Substitution, but I'm not sure a non-sudden version would be worth burning one of my two second-level slots for. Especially since I'm only getting 2 or 3 2nd-level spells per day.
Why do you need Energy Substitution? Druid has enough blasting spells of all varieties that you shouldn't need it even if you want to blast.

WarKitty
2010-07-15, 03:09 PM
Why do you need Energy Substitution? Druid has enough blasting spells of all varieties that you shouldn't need it even if you want to blast.

Lower-level druid? We're talking a max of level 2 spells, maybe level 3 later in the campaign. All I'm seeing are fire spells with maybe some energy once I get level 3's.

Glimbur
2010-07-15, 10:32 PM
You get ~7-8 feats in a 20 level career, unless you get bonus feats from class or flaws or such. You get 760,000 gp if you follow WBL and hit level 20. Metamagic rods cost a move action to draw, but what else did you need that action for? Metamagic rods are also 3/day instead of 1/day like the feat is. There are limits on the spell level they can be applied to, but I still prefer metamagic rods for my spontaneous metamagic needs. Alternately, divine meta magic.

Thiyr
2010-07-15, 10:58 PM
Only reason I like them is that they provide a good way for warlocks to qualify for most metamagic prereqs without being -entirely- worthless. Otherwise, not a huge fan.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-07-15, 10:59 PM
Metamagic Rods are one of the few things that make me wish my character had extra arms. What's the LA on a Spellweaver?

Is there a forumula for determining the price of a metamagic rod?

The Shadowmind
2010-07-15, 11:12 PM
I think the sudden feats, as others said are to limited for a feat. I think thought that spending time at a Athenaeum of Boccob[Complete Champion] is worth it. 2,000 gp value for 7 uses each of sudden empower and sudden maximize, no time limit in which you could use the feat. Either a limited power boost for when you really need it, or two cheap metamagic feats for the purpose of prerequisites(I think).

PId6
2010-07-16, 12:09 AM
Lower-level druid? We're talking a max of level 2 spells, maybe level 3 later in the campaign. All I'm seeing are fire spells with maybe some energy once I get level 3's.
At low levels though, you shouldn't be seeing many fire-resistors. Or, for that matter, be using blasting spells much. With only a few spells per day, you want your spells to do something that last more than a single round. Something like Entangle or Enrage Animal would serve you far better than a spell that deals a few points of damage a single time.

Besides, there are quite a few choices for blasting spells at those levels without needing Energy Substitution, even with just PHB and SpC:

Sandblast (1st, SpC) - Nonlethal
Produce Flame (1st, PHB) - Fire
Thunderhead (1st, SpC) - Electric
Winter Chill (1st, SpC) - Cold
Chill Metal (2nd, PHB) - Cold
Creeping Cold (2nd, SpC) - Cold
Flaming Sphere (2nd, PHB) - Fire
Heat Metal (2nd, PHB) - Fire
Saltray (2nd, SpC) - Untyped
Splinterbolt (2nd, SpC) - Piercing
Winter's Embrace (2nd, SpC) - Cold
Wracking Touch (2nd, SpC) - Untyped

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 04:42 AM
You get ~7-8 feats in a 20 level career, unless you get bonus feats from class or flaws or such. You get 760,000 gp if you follow WBL and hit level 20. Metamagic rods cost a move action to draw, but what else did you need that action for? Metamagic rods are also 3/day instead of 1/day like the feat is. There are limits on the spell level they can be applied to, but I still prefer metamagic rods for my spontaneous metamagic needs. Alternately, divine meta magic.

Again, starting at level 3 though. Not going to be able to buy metamagic rods for a long time. And I doubt this campaign will go past level 10 or so, if that.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 08:24 AM
You get ~7-8 feats in a 20 level career, unless you get bonus feats from class or flaws or such. You get 760,000 gp if you follow WBL and hit level 20. Metamagic rods cost a move action to draw, but what else did you need that action for? Metamagic rods are also 3/day instead of 1/day like the feat is.

Two reasons...

1. Hands are limited. Carrying a one handed melee weapon is nice. Not because you expect to actually hit anything, but because you now threaten, and cause flanking, etc. Carrying wands is also nice. In specialist situations, you may want to carry other things.

2. Move actions are actually reasonably useful. It's not unusual to need to move to get LOS on something.

3. Level restrictions suck. Keeping a rod current with your spell level actually requires a significant amount of gold.

4. Most importantly, you can use a rod AND a sudden metamagic.

2xMachina
2010-07-16, 08:40 AM
Wand chambers.

Boccobsblog
2010-07-16, 08:47 AM
The ability to cast two 9th lvls spells in a round (if only once a day) is well worth it.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 08:59 AM
Wand chambers.

This does help for the hands thing, yes. I love em.

Unfortunately, the pair of 9th level spells in a round, while awesome, requires sudden quicken. It's a great feat, but the prereqs suck.

Prodan
2010-07-16, 09:47 AM
The ability to cast two 9th lvls spells in a round (if only once a day) is well worth it.

Hint: Shapechange into a Choker

Boccobsblog
2010-07-16, 12:26 PM
I agree, the pre-req's are bad (6 feats). But you can't make a more powerful mage than one with sudden quicken.

Prodan
2010-07-16, 12:28 PM
I agree, the pre-req's are bad (6 feats). But you can't make a more powerful mage than one with sudden quicken.

You can if you gave him a Metamatic Rod of Quicken Spell, Greater and spent your feats on something more worthwhile.

FMArthur
2010-07-16, 12:41 PM
I agree, the pre-req's are bad (6 feats). But you can't make a more powerful mage than one with sudden quicken.

There are better, easier ways to quicken spells, or even spontaneously add a quicken effect to prepared spells (Sudden Quicken's only advantage over simple metamagic cost reduction).

Besides, it's just easier to protect yourself from daze and use celerity. Very light on feats.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 01:02 PM
I agree, the pre-req's are bad (6 feats). But you can't make a more powerful mage than one with sudden quicken.

I can do a lot with six feats on a caster. Enough so that I can guarantee it'll be more powerful.

Lets start with Quicken, Arcane thesis, and some +0 metamagics, for starters.

Ernir
2010-07-16, 01:48 PM
I really like these, actually. Mostly because at low levels, they are a lot more usable than their "real" counterparts. Without metamagic reducers, you are not going to be empowering anything save for spells two levels below your maximum spell level, and even then, using your highest level slots for metamagick'ed versions of lower level spells hurts. For example, I'd much rather be a level 7 Wizard who can Sudden Maximize a single level 4 spell than a level 7 Wizard who can use his level 4 slots (of which he has like 1 to 4) to cast Empowered level 2 spells and his 3rd level slots to Empower his level 1 spells.

Now, if metamagic cost reducers are allowed, normal metamagic feats shoot faaaaaaar ahead, the Sudden feats get nothing (with the very notable exception of Residual Magic, which, if your DM agrees with the reading, can make Sudden metamagic feats about twice as powerful).
Also, as your spell slots become a less contested resource, using normal metamagic becomes more and more viable.

The TL;DR version: Short term: I like sudden metamagic, long term: normal metamagic.