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IM@work
2010-07-15, 04:49 PM
So according to the description in order to qualify for the Master Specialist Prestige class you must be a specialist wizard and have:
5 ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft
Spell Focus (School)
Ability to cast 2 level spells

With the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane it gives 2nd level spells to 1st level characters, with the human bonus feat a character can qualify for a prestige class by third level.

Are there any other prestige classes that can qualify earlier? It seems like this is a especially easy prestige class to get into, are there any others?

EvilJoe15
2010-07-15, 04:59 PM
You can get into Mystic Theurge at level 4

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 05:01 PM
You can get Survivor 1 as your second level.

avr
2010-07-15, 05:03 PM
By design and without Precocious Apprentice cheese you can get into Dragonmarked heir at L4.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-07-15, 05:08 PM
Unless I am mistaken Changelings and Shifters can go into warhaper at level 4 or 5. Master Specialist is the earliest PrC that I know of using that same method stated.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-15, 05:09 PM
I do believe there prestige classes that you can enter at level one provided you have no compunctions against ridiculous cheese.

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 05:12 PM
I do believe there prestige classes that you can enter at level one provided you have no compunctions against ridiculous cheese.

If you are referring to that thread a while back that talked of using the Fire-souled template to get into a Leadership-based PrC at level one, that still isn't ECL 1. :smallamused:

Morithias
2010-07-15, 05:21 PM
If you are referring to that thread a while back that talked of using the Fire-souled template to get into a Leadership-based PrC at level one, that still isn't ECL 1. :smallamused:

Will you people please stop completely missing the point of that build. The build was suppose to have the class as your first HD not first level. If you can get into a PrC at level 1, it's not a PrC it's a base class.

The Shadowmind
2010-07-15, 05:21 PM
Stoneblessed you can get into at level 3, but in this case that is on purpose, With rebuilding I think it is possible to have stoneblessed as the first level.

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 05:22 PM
Will you people please stop completely missing the point of that build. The build was suppose to have the class as your first HD not first level. If you can get into a PrC at level 1, it's not a PrC it's a base class.

Oh, I didn't miss the point of that build. It indeed did it have it as its first level/HD, but due to LA, it didn't have an Effective Character Level of 1.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-15, 05:23 PM
If you are referring to that thread a while back that talked of using the Fire-souled template to get into a Leadership-based PrC at level one, that still isn't ECL 1. :smallamused:

Well there is that, but you could allways become a Dusk Giant, gain some HD, get level drained, and then be in a PrC when you're only level one.

IM@work
2010-07-15, 05:35 PM
Where is Survivor from? I don't have access to my books at the moment.

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 05:37 PM
Where is Survivor from? I don't have access to my books at the moment.

Savage Species. You can only get into it at level 2 if you start as a Commoner though.

Tar Palantir
2010-07-15, 05:40 PM
With the feats Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, you can qualify for Rainbow Servant as a 1st level characters of a spontaneous arcane casting class (usually Warmage, Beguiler, or Dread Necromancer).

gorfnab
2010-07-15, 05:42 PM
You can get into Anima Mage at 4th level.

IM@work
2010-07-15, 05:43 PM
And how would one manage to get all 4 of those feats by level one?

EvilJoe15
2010-07-15, 05:46 PM
Human + Two Flaws.

Watchers
2010-07-15, 05:52 PM
The TO Mystic Theurge earliest entry is Favoured Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 1. Takes some work though.

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 05:56 PM
The TO Mystic Theurge earliest entry is Favoured Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 1. Takes some work though.

Wait, what? :smallconfused:

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-15, 06:06 PM
Wait, what? :smallconfused:

Requires turning into a dusk giant and eating a hen house.

Or was that turning into a Dusk hen and eating a giant house? :smallconfused:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-15, 06:10 PM
My guess is either Alternative Spellsource/Souther magician sheneanigans or magical training+Precocious aprentice or versatile spellscaster + heighten spell.

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-15, 06:12 PM
My guess is either Alternative Spellsource/Souther magician sheneanigans or magical training+Precocious aprentice or versatile spellscaster + heighten spell.

noneof those get you the needed skills. Only Dusk Giant cheese will do that

Critical
2010-07-15, 06:13 PM
You can go Anima Mage at level 2, but there won't be much benefit without your Binder level, so that's not really workable, but still, you can do that. :smalltongue: Thief of Life at level 3 from Faiths of Ebberon would be possible too, I believe.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-15, 06:23 PM
noneof those get you the needed skills. Only Dusk Giant cheese will do that

I stand corrected then.

Watchers
2010-07-15, 06:36 PM
noneof those get you the needed skills. Only Dusk Giant cheese will do that

Finding a helpful Bard would also work. Anything that gives a couple Temp HD.

candycorn
2010-07-15, 06:43 PM
You can get into Master of Many Forms at level 2, with the right template.

Watchers
2010-07-15, 06:45 PM
HD 2, or ECL 2?

Thurbane
2010-07-15, 06:46 PM
Do the Racial Paragon classes in UA count? Some of them advance spellcasting...if so, you can enter these at level 1! :smalltongue:

playswithfire
2010-07-15, 06:47 PM
You can get into Forsaker (3.0; I think Masters of the Wild) as your third level, with a human and 1 flaw or anything with 2 flaws.

nedz
2010-07-15, 06:49 PM
Do the racial Paragon classes count ?
I belive you can take these at level 1 though its probably not the best idea around.

Ed: Ninja'd

gbprime
2010-07-15, 06:50 PM
Yeah, a common build is to take an arcane casting class at level 1, then 3 levels of human paragon. (or paragon 1, caster 1, then paragon 2+3 for better skill points at 1st level) You have a martial weapon feat, a bonus feat, and +2 on any stat for just one caster level. It's not too long afterward you can jump into Abjurant Champion.

candycorn
2010-07-15, 06:58 PM
HD 2, or ECL 2?

HD 1, ECL 2. Divine minion of something or other.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-15, 07:23 PM
A Cleric qualifies for Church Iniquitor by 2nd level (but you'll need high Int or UA version Cloistered Cleric fot skill points).

So by 3rd level you can have 1 level of the class.
Cloistered Cleric 2/CI 1 is legal and intended by the designers.

gorfnab
2010-07-15, 07:30 PM
Thief of Life at level 3 from Faiths of Ebberon would be possible too, I believe.
Level 2 actually, if you can use the Generic Expert Class from Unearthed Arcana. Otherwise level 3 if you go Rogue 1/ Spellthief 1 with the Aereni Focus (PGtE page 20) feat.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-15, 07:33 PM
A Cleric qualifies for Church Iniquitor by 2nd level (but you'll need high Int or UA version Cloistered Cleric fot skill points).

So by 3rd level you can have 1 level of the class.
Cloistered Cleric 2/CI 1 is legal and intended by the designers.How do you get Zone of Truth by 2nd level?

Jergmo
2010-07-15, 07:46 PM
Would a Racial Paragon Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) count as a Prestige Class for the purpose of this thread? :smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2010-07-15, 07:46 PM
How do you get Zone of Truth by 2nd level?

Right, it would be 4th level.
Cloistered Cleric 3/CI 1.

Jarveiyan
2010-07-15, 07:48 PM
So according to the description in order to qualify for the Master Specialist Prestige class you must be a specialist wizard and have:
5 ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft
Spell Focus (School)
Ability to cast 2 level spells

With the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane it gives 2nd level spells to 1st level characters, with the human bonus feat a character can qualify for a prestige class by third level.

Are there any other prestige classes that can qualify earlier? It seems like this is a especially easy prestige class to get into, are there any others?

Lets look at those prereqs again(looks), you don't have to pull anything to go into the PrC at level 4. You can meet the prereqs at 3rd level already - must be a specialist wizard, 5rnks in Knowledge(arcana) and spellcraft, spell focus(in specialist school), ability to cast 2nd level spells, all these you can already have by 3rd level without having to pull any "cheese".

IM@work
2010-07-15, 07:57 PM
The point would be so that you could go into a second prestige class sooner. In this case a friend and I were doing a conjuration based build with a couple of other prestige classes in limbo, wanted all 10 levels of this and couldn't get to it without entering a level earlier.

Regardless, Master Specialist is much better than straight up Wizard. There is no reason not to prestige into this class asap. Entering early at the cost of a feat... well it all depends.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-15, 07:59 PM
The point would be so that you could go into a second prestige class sooner. In this case a friend and I were doing a conjuration based build with a couple of other prestige classes in limbo, wanted all 10 levels of this and couldn't get to it without entering a level earlier.

Regardless, Master Specialist is much better than straight up Wizard. There is no reason not to prestige into this class asap. Entering early at the cost of a feat... well it all depends.That feat can be swapped out for a variety of powerful features, including Spontaneous Divination. If you're specializing in a school with weak esoterica you might never touch Master Specialist.

dextercorvia
2010-07-15, 11:15 PM
A cleric gets into Church Inquisitor at ECL 4 with no shenanigans.

With shenanigans:

Illumian Rogue3/Warlock1 qualifies for Arcane Trickster

Feats:
Flaw:Magical Training (gets Mage Hand)
Flaw:Precocious Apprentice
1:Improved Sigil (Krau)

(A rogue3/Wiz1 can do it without flaws, but is better off taking more Wizard levels)

Edit: Ninja'd and discussed on the first point while I was making sure of the details on the second.

Saintheart
2010-07-16, 08:40 AM
I saw a fear-optimising build that gets you started in Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror) at level 3, but I've no idea exactly how it's done: Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Dread Witch XYZ...

gorfnab
2010-07-16, 09:14 AM
I saw a fear-optimising build that gets you started in Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror) at level 3, but I've no idea exactly how it's done: Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Dread Witch XYZ...
Precocious Apprentice will net you Scare with the sorcerer. Beyond that first level of sorc you just need another class that nets you +2 to your base will save at 1st level, like cleric, in order to meet the prereq of base will save +4.

Thurbane
2010-07-16, 10:39 AM
Would a Racial Paragon Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) count as a Prestige Class for the purpose of this thread? :smallconfused:
Triple ninja'd!
http://bullshish.com/blog/pictures/3Ninjas.jpg

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-16, 11:58 AM
With the right domains and versitle spellcaster you can take a spontanious cleric into walker of the waists I think at level 2. You can be a full drylitch by level 11.

Draz74
2010-07-16, 01:14 PM
Savage Species. You can only get into it at level 2 if you start as a Commoner though.

Or anything else with no good saves. (Construct Racial Hit Die, perhaps?)

DragoonWraith
2010-07-16, 02:26 PM
You can get into Anima Mage at 4th level.
You can go Anima Mage at level 2, but there won't be much benefit without your Binder level, so that's not really workable, but still, you can do that. :smalltongue: Thief of Life at level 3 from Faiths of Ebberon would be possible too, I believe.
You can get into Anima Mage at 2nd level (following Focused Enchanter 1) with two Flaws and the specialist Wizard variants from Unearthed Arcana. You need Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, any Metamagic feat, Precocious Apprentice, the Enchanter variant that adds Intimidate as a class skill, and you need to put 4 ranks in that.

However, more importantly, you cast spells as a 2nd level Wizard and bind vestiges as a 1st level Binder. The wording of Anima Mage is very poor, and does not require that you have any levels of Binder to progress before progressing. It states that your effective Binder level is equal to your levels in the Binder class plus your levels in Anima Mage: 0 + 1 = 1.

Alaris
2010-07-16, 03:17 PM
Ooh, I'm gonna ruin some of the ideas here, for fun!

Official Errata, or official note from Wizards, on Precocious Apprentice pretty much states that, because you can never fully reliably cast that 2nd level spell, and are always 'reaching' for it, it does not qualify you for prestige classes or other feats.

Thus, all of this stuff about using it to qualify for prestige classes... no. Just no.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 03:18 PM
Fine...we'll use Sanctum Spell instead.

Swap your feat in your build appropriately, then carry on as normal.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-16, 03:19 PM
Which is why I use Sanctum Spell.

Edit: Ninja'd

It also works for Divine Spells.

Alaris
2010-07-16, 03:21 PM
I can also be a jerk and say, if you leave your Sanctum, your spells are no longer considered 2nd level, if I recall. Ooh... what was that? The sound of a hundred cheese builds crashing to the ground and melting in a fiery explosion?

Since you don't have the 2nd level spells, you no longer qualify for those builds, and thus lose abilities appropriately, as you would for any feat.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-16, 03:23 PM
Then you stay in your sanctum and summon things to kill, until you're high enough to cast them normally.

kestrel404
2010-07-16, 03:24 PM
However, more importantly, you cast spells as a 2nd level Wizard and bind vestiges as a 1st level Binder. The wording of Anima Mage is very poor, and does not require that you have any levels of Binder to progress before progressing. It states that your effective Binder level is equal to your levels in the Binder class plus your levels in Anima Mage: 0 + 1 = 1.

I was going to complain about this being incorrect, since you don't get the Soulbinding class feature - but then I checked. You're totally right - you actually DO get the soulbinding class features. It's like the game designers wanted you to be able to do this.

Alaris
2010-07-16, 03:28 PM
Then you stay in your sanctum and summon things to kill, until you're high enough to cast them normally.

If I may be so bold... I'd like to argue that.

Okay, you are your Wizard 1 with Sanctum Spell to reach that 2nd level spell. That's nice, awesome. Okay, you go into your prestige class, AWESOME.

And you even reach CL 3rd, you can now cast 2nd level spells normally! AWESOME! You leave your Sanctum into the free world! And... come crashing down. You see, in theory, you just lost the ability to cast 2nd level spells pre-prestige. As far as I know, you can't use a Prestige Class to qualify for itself, so you automatically lose access and the powers of your Prestige Class, because you no longer qualify for it.

I'm curious to see the counter-arguement. Probably not the thread for it, but I'm curious...

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 03:30 PM
I can also be a jerk and say, if you leave your Sanctum, your spells are no longer considered 2nd level, if I recall. Ooh... what was that? The sound of a hundred cheese builds crashing to the ground and melting in a fiery explosion?

Since you don't have the 2nd level spells, you no longer qualify for those builds, and thus lose abilities appropriately, as you would for any feat.

Yup. Guess my character did indeed have a tough time getting to level three, when these problems went a way. Phew. Good thing that's all in the past for this level 5 build.

Oh, there's no limit on how you can get requirements. At all. You can use prestige classes to get requirements. Including for itself. The only limit is that if you don't have the requirements at any point in time, you don't get the bennies. For a relevant example, look up magic items as prerequisites for PrCs.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-16, 03:32 PM
If I may be so bold... I'd like to argue that.

Okay, you are your Wizard 1 with Sanctum Spell to reach that 2nd level spell. That's nice, awesome. Okay, you go into your prestige class, AWESOME.

And you even reach CL 3rd, you can now cast 2nd level spells normally! AWESOME! You leave your Sanctum into the free world! And... come crashing down. You see, in theory, you just lost the ability to cast 2nd level spells pre-prestige. As far as I know, you can't use a Prestige Class to qualify for itself, so you automatically lose access and the powers of your Prestige Class, because you no longer qualify for it.

I'm curious to see the counter-arguement. Probably not the thread for it, but I'm curious...

As far as I know, you can. Prestige classes don't care where you get their prerequisites, just that you have them. You can't, say, be a 2nd level wizard (normally) and become a Wiz2/Master Specialist 1, because you don't meet the "2nd level spells" requirement for MS until you take the level, which is impossible. If you meet it some other way (say, Sanctum Spell), and can cast 2nd level spells at lvl2, you do meet the requirements and can take a level in MS. Now, you have 2nd level spells by virtue of your class levels, and 3rd level spells inside your Sanctum - but now that you can cast 2nd level spells outside the sanctum, it's a self-sopporting loop.

I think - I consider this far past my own personal cheese limit, but that's how i understand the logic to work.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-16, 03:58 PM
The rules on PrC prereqs are ambiguous on this point - hell, even the claim that you lose the class features in the first place if you cease to meet them is somewhat dubious, as that rule technically only applies to the classes in CWar and CArc; no other book had that rule and those books cannot change the rules in other books (nor, IIRC, do they try to). However, in the absence of a rule for saying that you have to have been able to qualify as Alaris suggests, I don't think you can assume that that is how it works. After all, IIRC, the rules for retraining don't require that.


I was going to complain about this being incorrect, since you don't get the Soulbinding class feature - but then I checked. You're totally right - you actually DO get the soulbinding class features. It's like the game designers wanted you to be able to do this.
Tell me about it. It was very dumb; in my own homebrew I've made sure to close that loophole by writing my Soulbinding clauses differently, because that fact just bothers me. Hell, I only learned the trick because I did exactly what you did - I looked it up to prove someone wrong, and realized that wait, no, he was right. Sadly.

Optimystik
2010-07-16, 04:22 PM
Ooh, I'm gonna ruin some of the ideas here, for fun!

Official Errata, or official note from Wizards, on Precocious Apprentice pretty much states that, because you can never fully reliably cast that 2nd level spell, and are always 'reaching' for it, it does not qualify you for prestige classes or other feats.

Thus, all of this stuff about using it to qualify for prestige classes... no. Just no.

1) PrC prereqs say nothing about "reaching" or "reliability." Only "ability", which PA gives you.

2) I have the CArc errata open in front of me. Precocious Apprentice is not mentioned.

IonDragon
2010-07-16, 04:29 PM
Ooh, I'm gonna ruin some of the ideas here, for fun!

Official Errata, or official note from Wizards, on Precocious Apprentice pretty much states that, because you can never fully reliably cast that 2nd level spell, and are always 'reaching' for it, it does not qualify you for prestige classes or other feats.

Thus, all of this stuff about using it to qualify for prestige classes... no. Just no.

AHAHAHAHA! You's Trollin'! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bMLrA_0O5I)

OMG PONIES
2010-07-16, 04:59 PM
I can also be a jerk and say, if you leave your Sanctum, your spells are no longer considered 2nd level, if I recall. Ooh... what was that? The sound of a hundred cheese builds crashing to the ground and melting in a fiery explosion?

Since you don't have the 2nd level spells, you no longer qualify for those builds, and thus lose abilities appropriately, as you would for any feat.


Don't people use the Acorn of Far Travel or some other odd item to count as if you're always in your sanctum, even while adventuring?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-16, 05:02 PM
Don't people use the Acorn of Far Travel or some other odd item to count as if you're always in your sanctum, even while adventuring?

Spontaneous casters use a Dragon's Blood Pool to get legitimate 2nd through 4th level spell slots thanks to Sanctum Spell.

EDIT: Because I'm bored, I'll join the fray!


If I may be so bold... I'd like to argue that.

Okay, you are your Wizard 1 with Sanctum Spell to reach that 2nd level spell. That's nice, awesome. Okay, you go into your prestige class, AWESOME.


Personally, I prefer Focused Specialist + Precarious Apprentice to nab me 2nd level spells at 1st level, Chaos Shuffling away the feat later after I have my natural 2nd level spells from leveling.



And you even reach CL 3rd, you can now cast 2nd level spells normally! AWESOME! You leave your Sanctum into the free world! And... come crashing down. You see, in theory, you just lost the ability to cast 2nd level spells pre-prestige. As far as I know, you can't use a Prestige Class to qualify for itself, so you automatically lose access and the powers of your Prestige Class, because you no longer qualify for it.

I'm curious to see the counter-arguement. Probably not the thread for it, but I'm curious...

Cool. Except that I don't lose benefits from Archmage when I can no longer cast 7th level spells for the day. Similarly, the rules don't care if I'm in my Sanctum or not. I can technically cast X level spells, even if only in a 25 foot by 25 foot room.