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bentheiii
2010-07-15, 06:54 PM
So it has already been proven that not all paladins are lawful stupid, and one can only assume that Soon- who ran an epic-level party through a world-wide epic quest and founded a secret orginization is nowhere near dumb.

And re-reading through Girard's plan to fool Soon I concluded it was primarlily based on five thing occuring:

Soon will be dumb enough to not triple check the coordinates given to him by someone who is known to trick others and openly dislikes Soon and his values.
The "dumb" paladin Soon will be smart enough to hide the coordinates well enough so that a smarter person woulden't find them and check them.
Soon will break the oath not to look for the other gates within 12 weeks of swearing it but he will not tell anyone about the location of the rift for his whole life.
Soon will forget where he basically saved the world so he couldn't re-trace his steps.
Soon will be slower and less healthy than a mid-to-high level wizard and her bird and die from the explosion while still being fit to explore the the desert (and Girard didn't expect Soon to look for it in his old days because he bet he would look for the gate in less than three months)


Any of these things happening is at the least probable, but all of them occuring is pretty far-fetched. Somthing clearly doesn't add up, now this is a wild guess but I think that:

Soon was in with Girard on the trap and he actually knew where the gate really is. Girard and Soon did'nt really hate each other so much and Soon predicted that some of the paladins will become ignorant of the oath and asked Girard to make the trap in the coordinates he rolled up with a d% as an old favor

slayerx
2010-07-15, 07:55 PM
1. the only way Soon could triple check the coordinates is by either going to the coordinates which would be breaking the oath, or ask one of the other members of the party and we know that serini seemed to be in on Girard's deception... And it's easy to believe that Soon would expect the best out of people and expect them to put their differences aside for the sake of PROTECTING THE UNIVERSE, and not do something stupid instead...
2. Well ya... closely guarded top secret info... that's a no brainer, even an idiot can keep a secret
3. Girard had a very flawed opinion of Soon
4. The gate was somewhere in the middle of a barren, featureless desert... And if soon has no knowledge when it comes to maps (hence Girard pointing out that he himself was in charge of the maps), Soon would only have the VAGUEST idea at best as to where the gate might be... Girard could easily give him coordinates that were only a mile away from the gate and soon would never even realize it... At best Soon might no the general region of where the gate was, but that could mean 100's of square miles when he needs an exact spot
5. and that's a valid point

As for your suggestion... well the problem there is the simple fact that would make the future paladins ill equipped as knowledge of Girard's gate location would have been lost completely with Soon

Furthermore, Soon had absolute faith in the strength of the paladin oath, and thus would not have doubts and suspect his paladins might betray their oath

Darthteej
2010-07-15, 07:57 PM
But if Soon could avoid the trap, then other people could as well.

DaveMcW
2010-07-15, 07:59 PM
Girard's plan was to hide the gate behind an endless series of cunning illusions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). It worked.

Girard's plan to fool Soon required only your 4th point. It also worked.

Zeful
2010-07-15, 08:11 PM
Soon will be dumb enough to not triple check the coordinates given to him by someone who is known to trick others and openly dislikes Soon and his values.

*Sigh*

Girard was the party navigator, it was his job to be able to look at a map and point to where they are. Soon was not a navigator, he would have zero ability to even double check the location of one random spot in the middle of a dessert.

Premise is flawed.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-07-15, 08:12 PM
The "dumb" paladin Soon will be smart enough to hide the coordinates well enough so that a smarter person woulden't find them and check them.
Only an issue if Girard is worried about collateral damage or the trap doesn’t reset. We can see that Girard doesn’t care about collateral damage from his acceptance to trigger the trap with only a 90% chance of it being Soon. While the odds are set rather high, a 10% chance for a false positive isn’t really non-negligible. So he’s willing to accept a certain level of collateral.

We don’t have much evidence whether or not the trap resets. But if Girard feels it is important for Soon to get the message, it probably does. He has already accepted a non-negligible chance of false positives. It would be foolish to have it good for one time if there’s a chance for it to be wasted.

Darthteej
2010-07-15, 08:18 PM
{scrubbed}

Kish
2010-07-15, 08:19 PM
Any of these things happening is at the least probable, but all of them occuring is pretty far-fetched.
I think you're presuming Girard's actions were more based on intellect than they actually were.

I think he cast a spell that determined that there was a 90% chance that if anyone ever came to the coordinates he had given Soon, it would be someone who somehow got the coordinates from Soon. Then, motivated by hatred, wishful thinking, and his own quasi-religious conviction that no one would tell the truth if a lie was more advantageous and thus someone who claimed to be bound by his word had to be the biggest hypocrite around, he decided that there was actually a 100% chance that Soon would come to seize all the Gates, probably within twelve weeks. He set his trap based on that.

derfenrirwolv
2010-07-15, 08:40 PM
Soon will be dumb enough to not triple check the coordinates given to him by someone who is known to trick others and openly dislikes Soon and his values.

Without a GPS unit, can YOU tell your latitude and longitude?



The "dumb" paladin Soon will be smart enough to hide the coordinates well enough so that a smarter person woulden't find them and check them.

Check them against what? He'd have to go to the gate with someone that knows how to navigate in order to do that.


Soon will break the oath not to look for the other gates within 12 weeks of swearing it but he will not tell anyone about the location of the rift for his whole life.

Yes, he was wrong. It wasn't an unreasonable assumption, he just happened to be wrong.

Soons gate fell because the honor of a paladin CAN break. Miko fell, and it was her interference, corrupt nature, and beleif in her own rightousness


Soon will forget where he basically saved the world so he couldn't re-trace his steps.

Can YOU walk back to the same spot in a featureless desert a year after you were there?

Soon will be slower and less healthy than a mid-to-high level wizard and her bird and die from the explosion while still being fit to explore the the desert (and Girard didn't expect Soon to look for it in his old days because he bet he would look for the gate in less than three months)
[/LIST]

The bird has evasion, and doesn't even exist when people forget about them. The spell was apparently intended to do half its damage with the blast and half its damage when they fell, since V was flying (and soon wouldn't be) V survived.

JonestheSpy
2010-07-16, 01:28 AM
Well, I've always been of the opinion that Girard's message was a double-bluff. designed to throw off folks who were getting too close.

If it was the real deal, that means that Girard either was totally ignorant of the fact that Azure City and its gate fell to hobgoblins a year after it happened, or just didn't care enough to change his message. I suppose the second option is possible, but in that case it seems like the double bluff again.

LuPuWei
2010-07-16, 01:34 AM
Soons gate fell because the honor of a paladin CAN break. Miko fell, and it was her interference, corrupt nature, and beleif in her own rightousness


Wow. I think you just found Soon's fatal flaw! His trust in the principles of Law and Good to overcome any obstacle. I think what really pissed Girard off was probably that- Soon's idealism whereas Girard was probably world-weary, cynical and pragmatic by comparison. He probably didn't really hate Soon at all.



Yes, he was wrong. It wasn't an unreasonable assumption, he just happened to be wrong.

In that case, he was right not to believe blindly in principles, because he understood that humans are inherently fallible. Girard too was fallible- he was too quick to generalize and assume it was Soon who would not be able to conduct himself correctly- probably a grave mistake. If he had not tried to hold Soon personally responsible for the failures of rigid beliefs, he might have done more good.

He was right, but he addressed the problem in the worst way possible, becoming what he loathed- rigid, dogmatic and a judgmemental bigot.

factotum
2010-07-16, 01:50 AM
If it was the real deal, that means that Girard either was totally ignorant of the fact that Azure City and its gate fell to hobgoblins a year after it happened, or just didn't care enough to change his message.

Or else Girard is dead and CAN'T change the message. It's been sixty-odd years since the adventures of the Order of the Scribble, and as far as we know Girard was a normal human--he'd be ancient if he were still alive in the strip's current time frame.

Bogardan_Mage
2010-07-16, 03:31 AM
1. Actually, Girard was betting that Soon would double check the coordinates. The only way for Soon to do that would be to go to the coordinates given, see, which is exactly what Girard's spell seems to have been anticipating.
2. Um, no matter how smart you are one set of coordinates in the middle of a desert looks pretty much the same as another set of coordinates in the middle of a desert, unless you go to said coordinates in which case see #1.
3. What? This is basically #2 again, I'm not sure how obvious you think Girard's deception was, but I assure you that it wasn't.
4. It's a freaking desert. The largest in the world, I believe. You reckon you can tell the difference between two different sand dunes?
5. A genuine flaw, if Girard seriously intended for the blast to kill Soon. It's quite possible it was merely intended to injure and humilate him. For some reason I get the feeling that merely killing Soon wouldn't be enough for Girard, he'd prefer to see him publicly revealed for the fraud Girard believed him to be.

No, the real flaw in Girard's plan was the one by which the plan canonically failed. Paladin's don't break oaths. Girard's reasoning is a little hard to follow, fair enough that he hates Soon and wants to believe the worst of him, but one of the things he hated about Soon was his strict adherence to duty. Why on earth would he assume that Soon would break his oath, of all things?

Phishfood
2010-07-16, 04:10 AM
1. Actually, Girard was betting that Soon would double check the coordinates. The only way for Soon to do that would be to go to the coordinates given, see, which is exactly what Girard's spell seems to have been anticipating.

<snip>

4. It's a freaking desert. The largest in the world, I believe. You reckon you can tell the difference between two different sand dunes?
5. A genuine flaw, if Girard seriously intended for the blast to kill Soon.
<snip>



Indeed. The trap was set FOR Soon when he "betrayed his oath" and came to check on the others gates.

I would like to add that an empty desert has no fixed features - dunes shift with the wind. Even in the 12 weeks he bet on the desert would be different, never mind years later. Emphasis on the bet there too, he didn't ASSUME it would only be 12 weeks, the trap is still working years later. He BET it would be within 12 weeks but set the trap well enough to still be working now.


As for Girard being dead, Someone had a good scry at the site of the trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

Nimrod's Son
2010-07-16, 05:48 AM
I too don't believe that the trap was intended to kill Soon; it was more of a flourish to end his message and leave Soon incensed. Soon was an epic-level paladin and Girard would be well aware of how powerful he was. If he'd truly intended to kill him outright in one shot he'd have piled on the overkill.


We don’t have much evidence whether or not the trap resets.
Durkon seems to think it does, at any rate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html)

Lighturtle
2010-07-16, 07:09 AM
What if Girard was Miko's horse, cunningly polymorphed and observing soon's gate?

The real horse, meanwhile, would be stuck in the celestial realm, and the oracle would still be right.

derfenrirwolv
2010-07-16, 08:12 AM
Wow. I think you just found Soon's fatal flaw! His trust in the principles of Law and Good to overcome any obstacle. I think what really pissed Girard off was probably that- Soon's idealism whereas Girard was probably world-weary, cynical and pragmatic by comparison. He probably didn't really hate Soon at all.

What ticked Girard off was the loss of their Dwarf barbarian adventuring buddy Kraggor, soul and all, into the snarl. Either soon ordered him in, or came up with the plan that put Kraggor on



In that case, he was right not to believe blindly in principles, because he understood that humans are inherently fallible. Girard too was fallible- he was too quick to generalize and assume it was Soon who would not be able to conduct himself correctly-

Yup, same mistake, but in opposite directions. Too much trust in law and order, and too much cynicism about it.

Swordpriest
2010-07-16, 08:32 AM
To make Girard's lack of mental capacity even better, remember that each Gate's supposed to have some kind of "alarm divination" on it so that if it falls into the wrong hands, the other Scribble members will know and can come investigate.

So there's actually a circumstance -- Girard's fall and the seizure of his gate by outside forces -- where Soon would be right to come to his gate, and in fact honor-bound to do so. So, Girard set up a booby trap designed to kill people who would have a legitimate reason to be there -- specifically, to save the world.

Just plain nuts, I'd say.

sihnfahl
2010-07-16, 09:18 AM
Either soon ordered him in, or came up with the plan that put Kraggor on
Soon and Kraagor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) were both near the gate when Soon ordered it sealed. Soon survived; Kraagor didn't. Girard blamed Soon for it, and thought Soon would forget Kraagor's sacrifice.

Gitman00
2010-07-16, 10:16 AM
Soon and Kraagor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) were both near the gate when Soon ordered it sealed. Soon survived; Kraagor didn't. Girard blamed Soon for it, and thought Soon would forget Kraagor's sacrifice.

I think it wasn't that Kraagor thought Soon would forget; it's that he knew of Soon's plan to purge the world of all evidence and knowledge of the Gates. That would include evidence and knowledge of Kraagor's sacrifice.

Anyway, to add my two cents, I'm in the "double bluff" camp. Consider: Girard is an epic-level illusionist, which means his intelligence is through the roof. He's also known to practice deception as a matter of course. Given these two tidbits about him, he can weave lies and misdirection like a tapestry, and I don't think we can take anything he says at face value.

It's entirely possible very probable that he designed the trap to humiliate Soon if not actually kill him, but also to throw anyone else off the trail. The scrying sensor tells us that someone was notified when the trap was sprung, so it's a good bet Girard or his allies know someone's looking for him.

Bongos
2010-07-18, 01:08 AM
Nah, I think it's a pretty good plan.

Barlen
2010-07-18, 02:44 PM
One of the things that seems to be forgotten in this is what actually triggered Girard's hologram. In 693 after they find the spell trigger, it responded: "Keywords accepted: Gate, Girard, Sapphire Guard, Soon".

The events after that were specific to that set of keywords. Its possible that a different set of keywords would have triggered a different event. What that event would be we don't know. Perhaps it was set to respond to the druid and wizard if they showed up as well, but to respond in a different manner.

We don't know as much about Girard as we would like to think we do yet! We do know that he planned on using illusions and deception to hide his gate. With that said a double bluff, or even a partial (exagerated?) bluff is certainly possible. Maybe he was happy to leave a trap for Soon or anyone who came in his name, but also knew doing so would throw others off the trail.

As for him being intelligent, Dorukon would also have been highly intelligent but he didn't look like fought like he was.

snikrept
2010-07-19, 11:49 PM
r.e. the explosion: It was probably some sort of specific spell researched by Girard that does 100d6 to Lawful Good Paladins and 6d6 to everyone else or something.

Otherwise it does seem that Girard was being pretty foolish thinking it would kill Soon, whose capabilities he'd observed for years adventuring together.

Witty Username
2010-07-20, 08:22 PM
It could be the correct spot but Girrard is intentionally throwing off PC's that have a tendency to leave destruction in their wake.

And may be counting on Soon being Honorable to a fault and not actually showing up.

RMcMurtry
2010-07-21, 07:35 PM
Soon and Kraagor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) were both near the gate when Soon ordered it sealed. Soon survived; Kraagor didn't. Girard blamed Soon for it, and thought Soon would forget Kraagor's sacrifice.

I doubt Girard and Soon were ever close friends. The guy who believes in the power of honor, truth and loyalty and the guy who believes in the power of deception, illusion, and lies don't strike me as liking each other even before Kraagor's death. It also seems most of the dislike was on Girard's side, as if Soon's existence, actions, and beliefs were constantly irritating him.

I wonder how quickly Girard betrayed the oath.

derfenrirwolv
2010-07-21, 10:50 PM
I wonder how quickly Girard betrayed the oath.


He probably had an illusory stand in for the signing.

brilliantlight
2010-07-22, 12:13 AM
I too don't believe that the trap was intended to kill Soon; it was more of a flourish to end his message and leave Soon incensed. Soon was an epic-level paladin and Girard would be well aware of how powerful he was. If he'd truly intended to kill him outright in one shot he'd have piled on the overkill.


Durkon seems to think it does, at any rate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html)


Agreed, he was just pissed at Soon and wanted him to feel humiliated.

LuPuWei
2010-07-22, 01:16 AM
...as if Soon's existence, actions, and beliefs were constantly irritating him...

Maybe he has a back story as messed up as Redcloak's.

RMcMurtry
2010-07-22, 04:07 AM
Maybe he has a back story as messed up as Redcloak's.

That's certainly possible.

Ancalagon
2010-07-22, 05:44 AM
Maybe he has a back story as messed up as Redcloak's.

Plus, he seems to be an idiot... really, if he did not get what Soon was all about in years of travelling with him...

Glass Mouse
2010-07-22, 05:56 AM
Soon will break the oath not to look for the other gates within 12 weeks of swearing it but he will not tell anyone about the location of the rift for his whole life.

Break the oath to go look for the other gates = ensuring that his companions haven't messed anything up; thus making sure that the world is still safe.

Telling anyone about the location of the rift = endangering the entire world.

I can see how Girard's assumption would make sense.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-07-22, 04:00 PM
Plus, he seems to be an idiot... really, if he did not get what Soon was all about in years of travelling with him...
Oh, he got what Soon claimed to be “all about,” but that still doesn’t preclude Soon from being a hypocrite, which is what Girard sees all paladins as.

Dr.Epic
2010-07-22, 04:51 PM
One thing that always bugged be was the damage caused by the blast. I assumed Girard was trying to kill Soon with that blast (why else put it there?) yet, if it did kill V a mid-leve wizard, would it really have killed possibly an epic level paladin?

RMcMurtry
2010-07-22, 05:08 PM
Oh, he got what Soon claimed to be “all about,” but that still doesn’t preclude Soon from being a hypocrite, which is what Girard sees all paladins as.

Girard seems to see EVERYONE as a liar, willing to do whatever's the most expedient. He awards himself points for being "honest about it" and anyone who says they do otherwise is therefore a hypocrite.

brilliantlight
2010-07-22, 08:32 PM
One thing that always bugged be was the damage caused by the blast. I assumed Girard was trying to kill Soon with that blast (why else put it there?) yet, if it did kill V a mid-leve wizard, would it really have killed possibly an epic level paladin?

The same reason :vaarsuvius: gave :miko: the explosive runes scroll, to make a point. As she said :miko: was in no real danger so why did she do it? To get a rise out of :miko:!