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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Adding a new dimension to E6 spellcasting.



Jergmo
2010-07-15, 08:15 PM
In my campaign, I have a variant setup for Cooperative Spellcasting that I'd like to share (I use the spell points variant in my campaign, which definitely helps make it work since you can't really split spell slots...)

The lesser version is irrelevant, though - apart from the change I made to it, I've created Improved Cooperative Spellcasting. In my campaign, NPCs typically don't reach high levels, so this gives them an extra boost so that they can partially compete with the folks who do. With this, though, in E6, Cooperative spellcasters would be fairly powerful by comparison. Here are the feats as I have them set up:

Cooperative Spellcasting: The spell point cost of a cooperative spell is split by the number of spellcasters contributing. IE: If three level 5 wizards were to work together to create a fireball, each would pay 1 spell point rather than 3. If there is an uneven point distribution, such as the same example with two wizards, round the point cost up after division; each wizard would pay two spell points.
Improved Cooperative Spellcasting: Allows a group of spellcasters to combine their mana pools to create higher spells, up to a maximum of 1.5x the highest spell level known of the most powerful manifester. IE: The three level 5 wizards mentioned above can emulate a spell of up to 4th level. Two 3rd-level spell levels would be the equivalent of one 4th-level spell, and so on. Proper research of the spell is still required, and only spellcasters of the same spellcasting type can work together. Each contributing spellcaster must have the Improved Cooperative Spellcasting feat.

I believe that while this would add a new dimension of power, it wouldn't make them quite overpowered in the E6 system, though. They could cast Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, their only threat being Dispel Magic. Which, suddenly, makes a Ring of Counterspells very important!

What do you think, folk of the Playground? Is this something you would be interested in implementing to an E6 game, or does it seem too powerful? Apart from the increased power, it also seems great for flavor. As an example, a reference to Erfworld. :smallamused: Linked spellcasters can cast spells that a single spellcaster couldn't dream of being capable of manifesting!

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 10:33 PM
I think this is a well thought-out variant, though I personally believe that all spells beyond 3rd level should only be available through the Incantation variant. One of the purposes of E6 is to limit power, and even at the highest levels, magic users and non-magic users are fairly balanced. It is only beyond 6th level that the gap between magic users and non-magic users grows unbalanced.

Incantations allow all characters access to the potentially game-breaking spells of 4th level and higher, as opposed to just the magic elite. This also makes higher level spells a big deal, part of the story almost. Giving a group of spell casters access to higher level spells through cooperative spellcasting sort of trivializes the spell's uniqueness, their power. High level spells supposed to be the stuff of legends.

I do like the other part though, and I think you should, instead of allowing them to cast higher level spells, allow them to increase their collective caster level up to the maximum allowed by the spell, and maybe even allow them to apply metamagic feats to spells that would otherwise be impossible.

Jergmo
2010-07-15, 10:48 PM
Alright, thanks for the feedback. :smallsmile: I'd have to reread Cooperative Spellcasting as Complete Arcane has it, though, because I think it might do that already as you add more people to your little spellcasting circle. Although I'm iffy on that, I think it might just be increasing caster level for purposes like beating SR.

I was hoping it might be a decent drawback that each spellcaster involved has to blow two feats if they want to cast spells cooperatively this way.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 11:08 PM
Alright, thanks for the feedback. :smallsmile: I'd have to reread Cooperative Spellcasting as Complete Arcane has it, though, because I think it might do that already as you add more people to your little spellcasting circle. Although I'm iffy on that, I think it might just be increasing caster level for purposes like beating SR.

I was hoping it might be a decent drawback that each spellcaster involved has to blow two feats if they want to cast spells cooperatively this way.

Feats are a dime-a-dozen in E6, so they're hardly a limiting factor unfortunately. With the power of a 4th level spell in an E6 world, it would almost become a requirement for any group of higher level wizards to take (arms race). And once a group of wizards has access to every 4th level spell, it's not a big leap to assume that they will become the dominant power in the setting.

Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Reincarnate, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Planar Ally, Restoration, Scrying, Glibness... Some of these spells shouldn't exist at all in an E6 setting, while others should be special events (Planar Ally, Restoration, Reincarnate, Scrying). YMMV.

Jergmo
2010-07-15, 11:12 PM
This is true, although Polymorph at least wouldn't be so bad. In E6, the worst you could do is turn into a Troll. Heh, heck, my level 16 wizard in a friend's campaign usually still defaults to Troll with Polymorph.

The idea of wizards linking together to cast better spells is still very charming to me, though. I may have to look into what you suggested for it!

Gan The Grey
2010-07-15, 11:17 PM
This is true, although Polymorph at least wouldn't be so bad. In E6, the worst you could do is turn into a Troll. Heh, heck, my level 16 wizard in a friend's campaign usually still defaults to Troll with Polymorph.

The idea of wizards linking together to cast better spells is still very charming to me, though. I may have to look into what you suggested for it!

Let me know what you come up with. I really like the idea, though I don't know much about the use of the spell point variant. I wonder if you could work out a way to do it with the normal system.

Jergmo
2010-07-15, 11:24 PM
Let me know what you come up with. I really like the idea, though I don't know much about the use of the spell point variant. I wonder if you could work out a way to do it with the normal system.

Well, what I did with Improved Cooperative Spellcasting would work very easily - in the above example, two wizards would be sacrificing 3rd-level spell slots to emulate a 4th-level spell slot. What I did with the regular version would be tricky, though.

Jergmo
2010-07-15, 11:31 PM
Alright. Here's the original version of Cooperative Spell:

Cooperative Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells to greater effect in conjunction with the same spell cast by another individual.
Requirements: Any metamagic feat
Benefit: While the two of you are adjacent, you and another spellcaster with the Cooperative Spell feat can simultaneously cast the same spell at the same time in the round. Add +2 to the save DC of cooperatively cast spells and +1 to the caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance (if any), using the higher DC and level check of either caster.
A cooperative spell uses up a spell slot of the same level as the spell's actual level.
Special: For each additional caster with this feat casting the same cooperative spell simultaneously, the spell’s save DC and the bonus on the caster level check both increase by 1. When more than two spellcasters cooperatively cast a spell, each must be adjacent to at least two other casters involved in the casting. For example, two wizards and two sorcerers standing in a circle all have Cooperative Spell. The first three in the initiative order ready an action to cast fireball, casting the spell when the fourth does. The base DC of the spell’s save is equal to the highest save DC among the cooperative casters (as determined by relevant ability scores, other feats, special abilities, or items) +4 (+2 for the first cooperative caster and +1 for each of the other two). As well, whoever has the highest caster level determines the base caster level check, which gains a +3 bonus (+1 for each cooperative caster).

To be honest, I've only read the information for Cooperative Spell once - I simply liked the concept and took my own spin on it. I may have to tinker with things with this in mind. Perhaps I'll have the same thing be in effect for Cooperative Spellcasting, and for Improved, have it so it only starts getting bonuses for additional wizards after the base required to cast the higher level spell. IE: The two wizards in my example being helped by a third, increasing DC and vs. SR by 1.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-16, 12:09 AM
Alright. Here's the original version of Cooperative Spell:

Cooperative Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells to greater effect in conjunction with the same spell cast by another individual.
Requirements: Any metamagic feat
Benefit: While the two of you are adjacent, you and another spellcaster with the Cooperative Spell feat can simultaneously cast the same spell at the same time in the round. Add +2 to the save DC of cooperatively cast spells and +1 to the caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance (if any), using the higher DC and level check of either caster.
A cooperative spell uses up a spell slot of the same level as the spell's actual level.
Special: For each additional caster with this feat casting the same cooperative spell simultaneously, the spell’s save DC and the bonus on the caster level check both increase by 1. When more than two spellcasters cooperatively cast a spell, each must be adjacent to at least two other casters involved in the casting. For example, two wizards and two sorcerers standing in a circle all have Cooperative Spell. The first three in the initiative order ready an action to cast fireball, casting the spell when the fourth does. The base DC of the spell’s save is equal to the highest save DC among the cooperative casters (as determined by relevant ability scores, other feats, special abilities, or items) +4 (+2 for the first cooperative caster and +1 for each of the other two). As well, whoever has the highest caster level determines the base caster level check, which gains a +3 bonus (+1 for each cooperative caster).

To be honest, I've only read the information for Cooperative Spell once - I simply liked the concept and took my own spin on it. I may have to tinker with things with this in mind. Perhaps I'll have the same thing be in effect for Cooperative Spellcasting, and for Improved, have it so it only starts getting bonuses for additional wizards after the base required to cast the higher level spell. IE: The two wizards in my example being helped by a third, increasing DC and vs. SR by 1.

I don't see a problem simply increasing all caster level dependent aspects of a spell through Cooperative Spell. After all, both casters are burning a spell. Duration, Range, Damage, Saves, SR...I think it should increase all of these.

Jergmo
2010-07-16, 12:23 AM
I don't see a problem simply increasing all caster level dependent aspects of a spell through Cooperative Spell. After all, both casters are burning a spell. Duration, Range, Damage, Saves, SR...I think it should increase all of these.

Aye - in that case, if all effects are being increased in caster level as well as the DC, I should probably remove the bit about splitting the spell point cost, though. That was likely a bad idea anyway - the spell would end up being almost free in some situations, like with the fireball.