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View Full Version : LA... are you really such a monster?



Arceius
2010-07-16, 12:13 AM
I have a friend, who is also one of my players, that claims that (in reference to LA) "1 is ok, 2 is berable, 3 is very bad, 4+ are just fodder".

So I was wondering what exactly is the breaking point for Level Adjustment? What is the point, if any, that an LA become too unbearable despite the numerous benefits the race or whatever might provide.

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 12:14 AM
+2 is the most I'd ever consider and even then only with buyoff.

awa
2010-07-16, 12:16 AM
it really depends on a couple things what are you getting out of the race (for example hobgoblins not worth a 1 point level adjustment) and how powerful your class is lossing levels of fighter is not as bad as losing levels of wizard.

arguskos
2010-07-16, 12:17 AM
I've played with LA +1 before. There's a few circumstances of LA +2 I would consider. LA 3 or more better be amazing and buyoff better be in play, otherwise, it's a waste of your time/life/etc.

Gorgondantess
2010-07-16, 12:18 AM
I have a friend, who is also one of my players, that claims that (in reference to LA) "1 is ok, 2 is berable, 3 is very bad, 4+ are just fodder".

So I was wondering what exactly is the breaking point for Level Adjustment? What is the point, if any, that an LA become too unbearable despite the numerous benefits the race or whatever might provide.

It all depends on what you're going for.
For casters, +1 LA can work for most builds, if you find the right creature. +2 can work for a few, but it's gotta have some damn good benefits.. +3, you've gotta have at least +6 to your casting stat, some other goodies, and LA buyoff is vital. +4 or above: just don't do it.

For melee'rs, depends on how big the str/con bonus is. For example, Half Dragon is a decent choice, because the bonus to strength makes up for the +3 LA. Goliath works, with bonus to strength, con, few penalties, and powerful build, and anything with large size is pretty much a good choice. So, half celestial won't do the trick, but something like an ogre might.
If you're just looking at goodies, though, if you're going above +1 LA, you need a lot to make it worth it. Even +1 LA is devastating: +2-4 can take a build from awesome to soulknife calibre.

Defiant
2010-07-16, 12:22 AM
Pixie is +4LA and gives some potent bonuses, notably +8DEX, +6INT, at-will invisibility, spell resistance, and so on. It works wonderfully with a rogue, especially one focused on skills. You lose 4 levels, but gain +4 or +3 to your important skills, so it balances out.

Obviously, there's more to it than that, but you get what I'm saying.

awa
2010-07-16, 12:34 AM
the problem with high level adjustment is it rarely gives you abilities that scale well. Things that would be overpowered on a level 1 character are often pointless or easily replicated at high levels. For example things like poison where the dc typically becomes trivial to make by mid level

edit pixis an exception to the rule but many creatures with level adjustment that high also give you racial hit dice

Serpentine
2010-07-16, 12:40 AM
Hey, just how does LA buy-off work?

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 12:44 AM
Hey, just how does LA buy-off work?
obligatory link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm).
Essentially when you would level up at certain milestones, you pay exp to reduce your LA by 1 instead, staying at your current level but lowering your ecl.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-07-16, 12:46 AM
Optimized: +1
Only slightly missing out: +2
Still optimizable to 'normal' play: +3
Breaking point of the rock tag: +4

anything above that better have not have RHD to count against your ECL. But oh wait... they pretty much all do. Yet another reason why RHD shouldn't count against ECL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8578981#post8578981) because lets face it, unless you're a sharn the LA is going to make you way too sucky.

Runestar
2010-07-16, 01:17 AM
I believe that LA can be worth it, but it must be fairly and reasonably determined to begin with, and let's face it, most of the ECLs of monsters these days are simply way too high.

Case in point - ghaele. ECL20 (10 outsider HD, +10LA, and I still feel it is one of the more decent monster PCs).

Tshern
2010-07-16, 01:30 AM
For melee'rs, depends on how big the str/con bonus is. For example, Half Dragon is a decent choice, because the bonus to strength makes up for the +3 LA. Goliath works, with bonus to strength, con, few penalties, and powerful build, and anything with large size is pretty much a good choice. So, half celestial won't do the trick, but something like an ogre might.
Actually Half-Dragon is rubbish. Giving up too much for way too little, taking that simply makes you a bait for spells like Blasphemy.

Arceius
2010-07-16, 01:34 AM
Optimized: +1
Yet another reason why RHD shouldn't count against ECL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8578981#post8578981) because lets face it, unless you're a sharn the LA is going to make you way too sucky.

I really like that way of doing it. RHD are so annoying. "It only has a +2 LA! Awesome this is gonna be great." "Yeah, but it has 6 RHD... good luck pulling that off." "... Why, WoTC... why?"

Tshern
2010-07-16, 01:36 AM
Black Ethergaunts are pretty decent even with their 16 RHD...

Superglucose
2010-07-16, 01:40 AM
+2 is the most I'd ever consider and even then only with buyoff.
+1.

I hate level adjustments because class levels in the classes I enjoy playing give me so much more.

Gorgondantess
2010-07-16, 01:47 AM
Actually Half-Dragon is rubbish. Giving up too much for way too little, taking that simply makes you a bait for spells like Blasphemy.

It works well with something like a charger barbarian, where you can put the high strength to good use- that's +4 to hit and +6 to damage from the strength alone, for 3 levels. The +2 con pays off the hp you lost from lost HD at high levels, and then you get a few other nice goodies. It's not awesome, but it's not rubbish.

Tshern
2010-07-16, 01:56 AM
It works well with something like a charger barbarian, where you can put the high strength to good use- that's +4 to hit and +6 to damage from the strength alone, for 3 levels. The +2 con pays off the hp you lost from lost HD at high levels, and then you get a few other nice goodies. It's not awesome, but it's not rubbish.
Compared to quite a few other options like Feral?

PId6
2010-07-16, 02:14 AM
Casters:

+1: Usable with LA buyoff if it provides good benefits (boosts to casting stat being prime advantage).
+2: Requires intentional self-nerf, and the benefits must be extremely good (like Saint). May be worth considering with buyoff.
+3: Not worth considering under any circumstances.

Non-casters:

+1: Pretty useful even without buyoff, and there are a wide variety of LA +1 templates that are very usable (Half-Minotaur, Feral, Lolth-Touched, Mineral Warrior, etc).
+2: Worth considering. Benefits potentially worth the cost (two of the above templates, for example). Not too bad with buyoff, and could be worthwhile even without.
+3: Requires a lot of thinking. Probably a self-nerf. Stacking +1 templates is almost the only reason to want to do this. With better classes (like martial adepts), the utility of this goes down, but with weaker classes (like fighter), this may not be a huge nerf. Buyoff is required, though it doesn't help enough most of the time.
+4: Not worth considering under any circumstances.

There are exceptions (like the aforementioned Black Ethergaunt), but this will hold true for nearly all forms of LA.

Gorgondantess
2010-07-16, 02:17 AM
Compared to quite a few other options like Feral?
Feral is cheese. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it, and I'm pretty damn liberal in what I'll allow. 'Sides, it's 3.0.
I was mainly using Half-Dragon as a core example of a decent template. Not good, decent. If you really want something good, use half-ogre.

icefractal
2010-07-16, 02:20 AM
There are a few exceptions (Black Ethergaunts, as Tshern mentioned, and I happen to think the Ghost is worth its +5 LA for the right classes), but most things above +1 or +2 aren't worth it - even most of the +1 stuff is overpriced. This varies by class though - martial types can support 2 or 3 LA if the abilities gained are good enough, casters not so much.

Milskidasith
2010-07-16, 02:23 AM
Feral is cheese. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it, and I'm pretty damn liberal in what I'll allow. 'Sides, it's 3.0.
I was mainly using Half-Dragon as a core example of a decent template. Not good, decent. If you really want something good, use half-ogre.

I'm surprised you would disallow feral but not mention half minotaur. Size increase, massive boosts to strength and constitution, a decent bit of AC, and a slight movement speed increase? It's a huge amount for 1 LA, and quite possibly better than feral if you don't give feral the special qualities unless they have actual monster hit dice.

Jackgar
2010-07-16, 02:31 AM
I just find LA to be a huge hassle. I'd play a good amount of LA +1 ones, but that's about it. There are very, very few +2 ones I'd use, and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Githzerai.

Natael
2010-07-16, 08:08 AM
I've played a pixie hellfire warlock, worked alright for the most part, until monsters started casting Blasphemy, which really started to hurt because even something equal level to me would get some nice effects.

Prime32
2010-07-16, 08:11 AM
Tier system for templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0)

Aotrs Commander
2010-07-16, 08:16 AM
I've played a pixie hellfire warlock, worked alright for the most part, until monsters started casting Blasphemy, which really started to hurt because even something equal level to me would get some nice effects.

Mind you, Blasphemy (et al) is just right-out abusive anyway...

(If the DM uses it, they stand a good chance of a TPK if you're not extremely careful and the cleric spell level isn't too much higher than the group; if it is, it's an auto-TPK. I revise it to Will Negates at the very least...)

Oslecamo
2010-07-16, 08:16 AM
I'm surprised you would disallow feral but not mention half minotaur. Size increase, massive boosts to strength and constitution, a decent bit of AC, and a slight movement speed increase? It's a huge amount for 1 LA, and quite possibly better than feral if you don't give feral the special qualities unless they have actual monster hit dice.

Honestly, the half-minotaur is a clear example of bad wording from somebody who knew even less how the rules work and nobody bothered to errata. Dragon Magazine is filled with those and a good reason why it isn't trusted. All other templates that change size don't change your ability scores just for changing size.

Basically, allowing half minotaur as written would like be claiming a monk isn't proefecient with his fists.

Saintheart
2010-07-16, 08:29 AM
Can't say I've got extensive experience with it, but particularly when you've got a larger party LA is a heavy hit to put on one character. Case in point: my current RHOD campaign with an Avariel at LA +2. Course, it doesn't help she went for four levels in fighter and is only now going into Duskblade, with everyone else in the party at level 8, but she's literally down to being a one-trick pony: True Strike, Dive Attack with rapier, rinse, repeat. That's it. She's the original hit and run fighter.

Her wings are quite useful, of course, but the party recently picked up a Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1 with the Mindsight feat who basically functions as party radar out to 100', and a bard who took a raven familiar. We've got our eyes in the sky covered now. Sad, really.

2xMachina
2010-07-16, 08:39 AM
Honestly, the half-minotaur is a clear example of bad wording from somebody who knew even less how the rules work and nobody bothered to errata. Dragon Magazine is filled with those and a good reason why it isn't trusted. All other templates that change size don't change your ability scores just for changing size.

Basically, allowing half minotaur as written would like be claiming a monk isn't proefecient with his fists.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a

Half Goristro

* Size and Type: Huge outsider (goristros are Huge)
* Speed: No wings
* Armor Class: +5 natural armor improvement from template; +3 natural armor improvement due to size change from template
* Attack: No claws or bite, so add slam attacks instead
* Damage: Slam 3d6+1-1/2 Str
* Special Attacks: smite good, 1-2 HD levitate 3/day, 3-4 HD fear 1/day
* Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft., immune to poison, acid/cold/electric/fire resistance 10, DR 5/cold iron, SR 14
* Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Dex +0, Con +6, Int +0, Cha +2*; a size increase also changes the following: Str +8, Dex -2, Con +4
* Skills: 7 skill points per (HD+3); add Intimidate, Jump, and Sense Motive as class skills
* Challenge Rating: +3 (+1 base for template, +1 size increase, +1 harder to defeat)

This does.

Prime32
2010-07-16, 08:59 AM
That stuff implies that you were meant to add an extra +1 LA for increasing size which isn't included in the half-minotaur template.

Morph Bark
2010-07-16, 09:02 AM
I only ever use templates with max LA of +3, unless it's a Gestalt game. LA+3 can be bought off pre-epic, but LA+4 can't. Something with an LA of more than +1 is tougher on you if you want to be a spellcaster or anything that depends on something level-based (binder level, manifester level, etc.) and beyond LA+2 should not be considered.

Racial HD is even tougher unless you can somehow retrain them into class HD, but it's not so bad if you take a class with only 2 skill points per level or an initiator class. Better not get one with more than 2 RHD though. Plus, a race with 2 RHD and LA+3 can still buy the LA off pre-epic!

Lioness
2010-07-16, 09:11 AM
I read this thread, and wonder why on earth I decided to play a vampire (LA +8)

Eh. No racial HD...it'll be fun to play with.

Oslecamo
2010-07-16, 09:59 AM
This does.

Notice the "customized" part. The whole article is aimed at giving sugestions to DMs how to rule 0 the half-fiend template to represent specific outsiders. I can rule 0 anything.

It also costs +3 LA so it's considerably more fair.

Flickerdart
2010-07-16, 10:47 AM
Notice the "customized" part. The whole article is aimed at giving sugestions to DMs how to rule 0 the half-fiend template to represent specific outsiders. I can rule 0 anything.

It also costs +3 LA so it's considerably more fair.
+4 LA, actually. The CR is what's +3.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-07-16, 11:54 AM
Yes, LA sucks. RHD too.

I can't tell you how many times I've thought, "Man, I'm love to play a Minotaur, but... ECL 7? So not worth it..."

Which is why I've been planning something I call "Project Playable", an effort to make lower ECL versions of races and templates otherwise hampered by the crippling LA and RHD. Obviously, some need to be powered down a bit, as the goal is to get the flavor at ECL 1 without the need for monster classes (which some people might not like, I'd imagine, preferring the crunch of the monster to the fluff). The only thing I've gotten done so far though is the Minitaur, a no LA/RHD, Medium-sized Minotaur.

Any other suggestions for the project? Criticism? Wanna kill me for plugging my own project in a thread? :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-07-16, 11:56 AM
Half Goristro
Now this is just silly!

And very, very horrible... :smalleek:

Arceius
2010-07-16, 12:12 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've thought, "Man, I'm love to play a Minotaur, but... ECL 7? So not worth it..."

Which is why I've been planning something I call "Project Playable", an effort to make lower ECL versions of races and templates otherwise hampered by the crippling LA and RHD.

Oh! Shiny Linkage. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)

I'm pretty sure that thread already has Minotaur up.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-07-16, 12:21 PM
Oh! Shiny Linkage. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)

I'm pretty sure that thread already has Minotaur up.

Curses, foiled again b-

Oh wait, I suppose my project has a just different enough from that to be its own thing. I'm trying to get the fluff of the creatures without being stuck waiting for epic levels to get builds normal races can get. (Even with monster classes, you have to wait for epic levels if you want to play, say, a Centaur Warblade 20, while with my plan you wouldn't. If I did Centaur).

Although I guess it's close enough at the same time to be nearly the same thing.

Thanks for the link, though.

Oslecamo
2010-07-16, 01:37 PM
Oh wait, I suppose my project has a just different enough from that to be its own thing. I'm trying to get the fluff of the creatures without being stuck waiting for epic levels to get builds normal races can get. (Even with monster classes, you have to wait for epic levels if you want to play, say, a Centaur Warblade 20, while with my plan you wouldn't. If I did Centaur).


Well, to be fair my custom monster classes allow you "break out" from the monster at any time (and even return if you wish), so you can perfectly be a centaur 1/warblade19 before epic levels.

1 level of centaur would give you the quadraped body, large land speed, +1Str and +1 Con and Con to nat armor besides the HD, skill points and saves. Ok, you're not a fully fledged centaur, but large size at 1st level just isn't correct.

Same with the other monsters. You can perfectly be a pit fiend 1/warblade 19.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-07-16, 01:46 PM
Well, to be fair my custom monster classes allow you "break out" from the monster at any time (and even return if you wish), so you can perfectly be a centaur 1/warblade19 before epic levels.

1 level of centaur would give you the quadraped body, large land speed, +1Str and +1 Con and Con to nat armor besides the HD, skill points and saves. Ok, you're not a fully fledged centaur, but large size at 1st level just isn't correct.

Same with the other monsters. You can perfectly be a pit fiend 1/warblade 19.

In that case I suppose my project really isn't that different.

Good, I don't need another project taking up my time anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 01:50 PM
Is it really such a monster? Yes.

If you are a full caster, you should never, ever forsake casting progession for LA. Ever. If you think you should, you are wrong.

As anything else, it's a straight comparison. Would I get more from an actual class level instead? Generally, the answer is yes. The exceptions are mainly "one side of a gestalt progression" and "LA buyoff is in effect".

Oslecamo
2010-07-16, 02:04 PM
If you are a full caster, you should never, ever forsake casting progession for LA. Ever. If you think you should, you are wrong.


Well, even whitout buyoff tiefling is suprisingly solid for a wizard. +2 to int and you become an outsider wich allows for all kind of fun cheese.

Untill they printed the LA 0 otherwordly template grumble grumble.:smallyuk:

I've also seen people try to argue the skeletal template from Book of Vile Darkness is LA 0 because it increase CR by 0. Despite giving undead traits and a bonus to dex over your base race whitout any penalties. Yeah.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 02:26 PM
Well, even whitout buyoff tiefling is suprisingly solid for a wizard. +2 to int and you become an outsider wich allows for all kind of fun cheese.

Outsider is not worth losing a level of casting. You can get +2 int elsewhere. Lesser Tiefling is the most similar choice. Grey elf, if you're in core.

Even if it WAS a choice of stats vs level, another level of casting is more important than +2 int.

Even if that wasn't true, racial paragon levels would STILL be superior to LA. Since they progress casting 2/3 levels, give you +2 to a stat, give you other minor bonuses, and don't screw you over on hit die.

Oslecamo
2010-07-16, 02:55 PM
Those are all options that came later. Tiefling in a core only game is worthwhile.

Of course if you're in splatbook land even wizard is inferior and you're taking focused specialist instead with half a dozen prcs on top.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-16, 03:00 PM
Already mentioned grey elf as a core option there. Monster Manual 1, I believe. That'd be your +int option, if thats really that critical to your build.

In a core only game, LA gets even worse. Most of the passable LA options are found only by heavy splatbook delving, and of course, neither gestalt or LA buyoff are core. The best spells are core, though, so you're still giving up just as much.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-16, 03:07 PM
To be fair, Tiefling could see use with LA buy-off for a Gish build that wants to ease up on the PB and not want to blow a feat on Otherwordly.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that anything over +3 LA is murder to the character. +3 is worth it if and only if you're A). Starting at 12th level or higher and B). The LA buy-off rules are in full effect. +2 follows similarly, but I'm willing to go as low as 7th level with that, though it does mean having an awkward growth period if I'm playing a caster. +1 LA generally is awesome for melee even without the buy-off rules, but only for a select few templates.

EDIT: Of course, you could always just use Incarnate Construct cheese on a templated Warforged for fun and profit.

aje8
2010-07-16, 03:17 PM
Feral is cheese. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it, and I'm pretty damn liberal in what I'll allow. 'Sides, it's 3.0.
I was mainly using Half-Dragon as a core example of a decent template. Not good, decent. If you really want something good, use half-ogre.
Actually.... I rather support allowing Feral, assuming the game is somewhat high powered. Is it broken compared to any Martial class in DnD? Obviously yes. Is it broken compared to Wizard 20? Of course not.

Play your Feral Half-Minatour guy in my game. He'll hit things really hard. He'll have pounce. He'll be an awesome tank...... and he'll still lack versatility and be mericlessly outclassed by the Wizard. Though... my games IRL are generally pretty high powered.

Regardless, my limits on LA:
Caster:
+1 is only woth it for an Outsider for Alter-Self Cheese (which I would never do) or for something which grants Caster Levels equal to the LA.
+2 or more: Never, unless is pays for itself in Caster Levels.

Melee:
+1: Some good tempaltes exist and are often quite worth it.
+2: Again, a few choice templates are worth it. Anything outside of them is bad.
+3: Very, very little is worhtwile, stacking some of the previous templates could work.... maybe.
+4: Never.

FMArthur
2010-07-16, 04:24 PM
I sometimes like level adjustment templates, but very few races. Its effects have to be unique or hard to get in classes and need to be useful up to mid-high levels for me to consider it. In particular, Dark (+1), Shadow (+2), Mineral Warrior (+1), and sometimes Lolth-Touched (+1) are good templates for noncasters in general. I don't allow Feral; "not broken compared to wizard" isn't good enough for me. It's so powerful it could be a 10-level prestige class and fit right in with the other strong melee ones. :smallannoyed:

ericgrau
2010-07-16, 04:25 PM
Pixie rogues are awesome even with 4 LA. Grimlocks (any melee) are 2 LA and 2 RHD and ditto for them. They're great from stats alone and then the blindsight is icing on the cake. I don't know anything higher than that that I'd play, unless you count templates. I mean half-dragon is good even for 3 LA. So, hmm, half-dragon grimlock, 5 LA, 2 RHD. That's playable. I mean those are great in core and I bet splatbooks both set the bar higher and have the races and templates to meet that bar.

Logician
2010-07-16, 06:40 PM
I obviously dont like LA, but i simply love the idea of the abstract and awesome ideas you can achieve if you accept it. I'm already playing a (modified) pseudodragon sorcerer so my LA is already very crippling yet i cant help but wonder...

would a pseudodragon litch use the litch template or the dracolitch template... hmm....

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-16, 06:58 PM
Pixie is +4LA and gives some potent bonuses, notably +8DEX, +6INT, at-will invisibility, spell resistance, and so on. It works wonderfully with a rogue, especially one focused on skills. You lose 4 levels, but gain +4 or +3 to your important skills, so it balances out.

Obviously, there's more to it than that, but you get what I'm saying.

Pixie is also great because there's no RHD to deal with, either. And while they do make great rogues, they make even more awesome warlocks. Everything they have is a bonus to a warlock, and all their drawbacks don't matter to a warlock.

It really depends on how much your race matches up with your class. Pixie warlock should be +4 LA, but a Pixie fighter? Maybe +2 LA at best. I think LA's are something a DM should be flexible on, keeping in mind that the LA's suggested for almost every monster race is horribly high, especially when you add in the heaps of RHD you need also.

ericgrau
2010-07-16, 08:07 PM
That's the thing. I think the LA assumes you're using the race for what it's good at, which is only natural. Ogres tend to be barbarians and so on. I mean if the pixie fighters held up to other fighters in a war, it should make you raise an eyebrow. Though I think LA and RHD screw over casters so universally that they should be counted towards any gish non-caster level requirements.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-16, 08:58 PM
That's the thing. I think the LA assumes you're using the race for what it's good at, which is only natural. Ogres tend to be barbarians and so on. I mean if the pixie fighters held up to other fighters in a war, it should make you raise an eyebrow. Though I think LA and RHD screw over casters so universally that they should be counted towards any gish non-caster level requirements.

The problem here is that even an Orge barbarian type doesn't gain any class abilities until 7th level, by which point normal orcs could already be pulling Shock Trooper together with nearly the same Str score thanks to rage and frenzy.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-16, 09:09 PM
obligatory link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm).
Essentially when you would level up at certain milestones, you pay exp to reduce your LA by 1 instead, staying at your current level but lowering your ecl.
Mind you, the math on that is broken.
You're +1 LA, with 5,999 xp, and you gain one more XP (to 6,000), and so you hit your third class level. You pay (ECL -1)*1,000 XP. ECL 4, so 3,000 xp, making you +0 LA with 3,000 xp. 3,000 xp is level 3. AKA, you still level at exactly the same time everyone else does. Oh yes, and you're now treated as a 3rd level character in a party of 4ths, so you gain XP faster. If it's in play, there is exactly 0 drawback to using LA buyoff... which I suppose is the point.

FMArthur
2010-07-16, 10:02 PM
Mind you, the math on that is broken.
You're +1 LA, with 5,999 xp, and you gain one more XP (to 6,000), and so you hit your third class level. You pay (ECL -1)*1,000 XP. ECL 4, so 3,000 xp, making you +0 LA with 3,000 xp. 3,000 xp is level 3. AKA, you still level at exactly the same time everyone else does. Oh yes, and you're now treated as a 3rd level character in a party of 4ths, so you gain XP faster. If it's in play, there is exactly 0 drawback to using LA buyoff... which I suppose is the point.

You just described exactly the reason to take LA buyoff. I don't know what you thought its purpose was before now. The point of LA buyoff is that abilities on LA races generally don't scale, and become more and more redundant as you level up and less equivalent to another class level, so it is supposed to equalize things a bit.

It doesn't actually work in practice, since smart players pick level adjustment templates/races for things that will still matter after tenth level, so LA buyoff is effectively free levels. Which is why it is a variant and not a real part of the main ruleset like everyone here seems to assume.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-16, 10:26 PM
You just described exactly the reason to take LA buyoff. I don't know what you thought its purpose was before now. The point of LA buyoff is that abilities on LA races generally don't scale, and become more and more redundant as you level up and less equivalent to another class level, so it is supposed to equalize things a bit.

It doesn't actually work in practice, since smart players pick level adjustment templates/races for things that will still matter after tenth level, so LA buyoff is effectively free levels. Which is why it is a variant and not a real part of the main ruleset like everyone here seems to assume.
Heh. I was actually referring mostly to Kylarra's "staying at your current level" bit.

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 10:27 PM
A poor choice of words on my part. I was rushing to get to bed for work early the next morning. :smallredface:

potatocubed
2010-07-17, 04:18 AM
"... Why, WoTC... why?"

Because you're not supposed to play non-standard races. I have a strong suspicion that the LA/RHD thing in 3.5 is an intentional design decision meant to drive people away from playing things like driders and vampires and towards elves and gnomes.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-17, 12:53 PM
Because you're not supposed to play non-standard races. I have a strong suspicion that the LA/RHD thing in 3.5 is an intentional design decision meant to drive people away from playing things like driders and vampires and towards elves and gnomes.
A Half-Dragon Minotaur Fighter-4 is noticeably stronger, mechanically, than a Human Fighter-4. So there has to be some form of adjustment to balance; if you have them both in the same party, and treat them the same, one is much more likely than the other to take the spotlight in combat. LA, or something similar to it, is necessary for game balance (even if the exact LA and exact method chosen by WotC isn't balanced properly, something like it is necessary). Did they go overboard in many cases? Absolutely. But it needs to exist.

awa
2010-07-17, 01:09 PM
I agree level adjustment is far from perfect but it is better then second edition where you either couldn't play the creature at all or they gave it bizarre weakness like random and illogical stat modifiers to try and balance it

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-17, 01:22 PM
A Half-Dragon Minotaur Fighter-4 is noticeably stronger, mechanically, than a Human Fighter-4. So there has to be some form of adjustment to balance; if you have them both in the same party, and treat them the same, one is much more likely than the other to take the spotlight in combat. LA, or something similar to it, is necessary for game balance (even if the exact LA and exact method chosen by WotC isn't balanced properly, something like it is necessary). Did they go overboard in many cases? Absolutely. But it needs to exist.

Technically, LA is suppose to represent the difference between how much more useful a set of abilities is to a player than it is to an NPC. For example, a monster wielding greater teleport at will is not a significantly greater combat threat, but a player character with that ability is MUCH more powerful/useful. There are many monsters with great abilities players would die for, and LA is supposed to adjust things so players have to pay equivalently to get them.

So the raw stats and abilities of a half dragon minotaur should be reflected in the 6 monstrous humanoid racial hit dice. So even without LA, you'd have to compare a minotaur fighter 4 with a fighter 10, which is a lot more even of a playing field. And since a half dragon minotaur has a CR of 10 anyway, it would seem to pose at least an even challenge to the fighter, if the CR system wasn't a bit screwy itself. The Level Adjustment is because of the things the minotaur can do that players usually can't, like fly, have a large size, breath weapons, natural armor/weapons, super awesome melee stats, and immunity to being flatfooted.

LA is hard to quantify unless you're evaluating a completed character concept, which is why it rankles a lot of people. In a lot of cases, for a lot of concepts, the LA given is just wrong. In some cases, where the synergy is high (e.g. pixie warlock/rogue, minotaur melee) it can almost seem worth it. I urge DMs everywhere to evaluate and lower LA if it seems unreasonable. LA should be seen as more of a variable, rather than a fixed value.

FatR
2010-07-17, 01:51 PM
I have a friend, who is also one of my players, that claims that (in reference to LA) "1 is ok, 2 is berable, 3 is very bad, 4+ are just fodder".

So I was wondering what exactly is the breaking point for Level Adjustment? What is the point, if any, that an LA become too unbearable despite the numerous benefits the race or whatever might provide.
Any LA is generally crippling, but LA 1-2 might work for specific builds. LA above that is generally not worth considering. At best, you might bypass a lot of dangers entirely by being a puzzle monster, like a ghost, but you will have very crippling weaknesses in exchange for this. And the value of your template investment will drop as levels increase.

Otodetu
2010-07-17, 02:08 PM
I have found that "replacement man" levels are a solid fix to level adjustment.

So for every point of level adjustemnt you have, you gain a level of replacement man, the class includes 1d4 hit dice, 2 skill points+int(class skills as dictated by class), all bad saves, wizard bab.

Sort of like gaining commoner levels really.

Works great where i have gotten the chance to test it. (as a dm and a player)

Note that this fix is for the basic and sort of underpowered core la issues, when you start adding splat stuff, it's usually so good that the fix makes it borderline broken.

awa
2010-07-17, 07:45 PM
its very true that ability that are okay for a monster break the game for pcs just look at all those cheats using planer ally for examples.

PersonMan
2010-07-17, 08:25 PM
For LA, I generally use the following:

For every level of LA you have, you gain 1+Con mod hit points, 2+Int skill points(class skills of RHD or first class), all bad saves and 1/2 BAB. It gives you some hit points, but not many, and if you have a ton of LA you at least gain a little BAB and some save bonuses for it. All in all, it makes LA have less of an impact. I also allow LA to count as hit dice, making high-LA characters less susceptible to Cloudkill and the like.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-17, 09:35 PM
Any LA is generally crippling, but LA 1-2 might work for specific builds. LA above that is generally not worth considering. At best, you might bypass a lot of dangers entirely by being a puzzle monster, like a ghost, but you will have very crippling weaknesses in exchange for this. And the value of your template investment will drop as levels increase.

Ghost is a +0 template. It happily ignores the problems of LA, and is reccomended if you want to survive by being highly unusual. It's not without concerns, but it can be quite broken if used well.

Yeah, anything with LA and RHD is basically a losing proposition. At best, it's balanced at the level you get it, and slightly thereafter. They never scale, though.

awa
2010-07-17, 10:37 PM
wait ghost is la 0? i could swear it was la 5 are we talking about some other ghost like creature?
Being incorporeal would be insane at low level

balistafreak
2010-07-17, 10:58 PM
I think Tyndmyr might be talking about the Ghostwalk version of Ghost. Which, IIRC, is a completely different beast than the SRD Ghost.

big teej
2010-07-18, 12:49 AM
I'm sure I'll catch flak for this... but!!!

I'm playing an Ogre ranger... and love it :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2010-07-18, 04:34 AM
I've never understood why people would call Half Minotaur and Feral cheesy or overpowered and then turn around and allow Wizards and Druids to cut loose. If you're reigning in the big boys then fine, but as a DM I find it much easier to challenge a Feral Half Minotaur Water Orc Barbarian than a Gnomish Shadowcraft Mage.

And Half Minotaur specifically says you add the stat adjustments for size changing, so it's nothing like the Monk thing. It's an intended choice, it's just a very strong one. I won't say it's overpowered, as that's more based on your individual game, but it's strong.

JaronK