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WarKitty
2010-07-16, 04:29 PM
So one of my co-players wants to play a... monk. Which, I think, is going to mess with things horribly. The idea she wants I think is a former thief turned from her thieving ways (hence her rejection of rogue as too trickery-based for her liking). Any better suggestions for her? All sources allowed.

Sc00by
2010-07-16, 04:30 PM
Unarmed varient Swordsage? I think that's what's normally the 1st thing suggested in these circumstances...

IonDragon
2010-07-16, 04:31 PM
Homebrew? There's a ton of 'monk fixes'itP. Otherwise... uh... is it Gestalt? That's the best way to get good mileage out of Monk. Druid x//Monk2, something better x, possibly Cleric.

Otherwise Unarmed Swordsage.

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 04:31 PM
Unarmed varient Swordsage? I think that's what's normally the 1st thing suggested in these circumstances...

Will look at it. I don't think weapons are an issue if I understand her character concept, actually she'd probably prefer to be swinging a sword than her fists.

Prodan
2010-07-16, 04:33 PM
The Cherokee would let their children burn themselves on camp fires in order for the children to learn firsthand the danger of fire.

IonDragon
2010-07-16, 04:34 PM
Will look at it. I don't think weapons are an issue if I understand her character concept, actually she'd probably prefer to be swinging a sword than her fists.

In that case, Cleric all the way. Or just re-fluff something. Anything.

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 04:36 PM
In that case, Cleric all the way. Or just re-fluff something. Anything.

Oh that's her other limitation. Not at all a magic-user. Just no.

jiriku
2010-07-16, 04:37 PM
The homebrew monk in my sig?

Panigg
2010-07-16, 04:40 PM
You could always just buff them.

One thing I like to do with my monks is the following:

Flurry of Blows:

Allows the monk to add an additional attack to.
If he uses flurry of blows as a standard action, he gets an extra attack and -2 on both attacks.
If he uses flurry of blows as a full round action, he gets an extra attack and no penalties.

At Level 5th its -0 on standard and +2 on full at level 9 its +2 on standard and +4 on full and on level 11 its two attacks, which add +5, so basically full base attack.

Or just use the one from the sig above. Waaaaaaay better, same principle tho.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-16, 04:42 PM
She wants a rogue that isn't stealing. She just has to play a rogue that doesn't steal.

Otherwise a swordsage will do. Or warblade. Or crusader. Or fighter. Or Ninja. Or Knight. Or Marshal.

Or any freaking thing.
All we know is what she isn't. What is she?

Prplcheez
2010-07-16, 04:45 PM
She wants a rogue that isn't stealing. She just has to play a rogue that doesn't steal.

This. It's really easy to build a rogue around pumping out damage, as opposed to building a stealthy thief that serves no real purpose in combat.

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 05:01 PM
She wants a rogue that isn't stealing. She just has to play a rogue that doesn't steal.

Otherwise a swordsage will do. Or warblade. Or crusader. Or fighter. Or Ninja. Or Knight. Or Marshal.

Or any freaking thing.
All we know is what she isn't. What is she?

Personally I think she's a rogue. But she doesn't like that.

What she is is a now good aligned drow (none of that, the drow in our world are all good aligned...has to do with our previous incarnations breaking part of the foundations of reality...). Very strong sense of honor, more of a melee fighter but also a skillmonkey. Specializes in a light-and-quick fighting style.

Caphi
2010-07-16, 05:04 PM
Personally I think she's a rogue. But she doesn't like that.

What she is is a now good aligned drow (none of that, the drow in our world are all good aligned...has to do with our previous incarnations breaking part of the foundations of reality...). Very strong sense of honor, more of a melee fighter but also a skillmonkey. Specializes in a light-and-quick fighting style.

Light, fast melee unit with skills? Sounds like a rogue to me! If she absolutely refuses, and high power isn't a concern, see if you can get Scout (CAdv) to pass instead. It does the same noncombat job and is more about mobility than tactics, but Sneak Attack is generally much better than Skirmish.

Keld Denar
2010-07-16, 05:04 PM
Personally I think she's a rogue. But she doesn't like that.
Swordsage?

What she is is a now good aligned drow (none of that, the drow in our world are all good aligned...has to do with our previous incarnations breaking part of the foundations of reality...).
Swordsage?

Very strong sense of honor,
Swordsage?

more of a melee fighter
Swordsage?

but also a skillmonkey.
Swordsage?

Specializes in a light-and-quick fighting style.
Swordsage?

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 05:05 PM
Recommended she look at swordsage, will see what she says.

Keld Denar
2010-07-16, 05:08 PM
Desert Wind has a lot of really good mobility maneuvers, along with some decent, albeit [Fire] based damage boosts. Tiger Claw also has some mobility with Sudden Leap and Pouncing Charge. Diamond Mind has Bounding Assault, and almost all strikes, being standard actions, work with a move in + hit, or hit + move out role.

Da Beast
2010-07-16, 05:12 PM
Rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw might work. It has a bit of rogue but no ones going to force her to go around stealing stuff.

Tar Palantir
2010-07-16, 05:17 PM
+1 for swordsage. It's just what the doctor ordered (or the player, as the case may be).

IonDragon
2010-07-16, 05:20 PM
Rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw might work. It has a bit of rogue but no ones going to force her to go around stealing stuff.

Yeah, but if she's all "NO,NO,NO,NO,NO ROUGE. NUH-UH." then we've got to think of something else. I'd second Scout or possibly Ranger. Homebrew trading out ranger casting for a bonus feat whenever she'd get a new spell level, and take Swift Hunter feat from CAdv or CScound (never can remember).

EDIT: If she's a new player, I'd shy away from Swordsage a little. It's a great fit and fun to play, but she doesn't want to be a caster, and she seems newbie-ish.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-16, 05:21 PM
Pray she doesn't see the Shadow Hand discipline.

gallagher
2010-07-16, 05:25 PM
Recommended she look at swordsage, will see what she says.
if she doesnt like ToB, i would suggest she look into scout.

if she wants someone who does extra damage without having to move 10 feet, i would actually suggest spellthief, even though she doesnt want to be a magic user. she could always steal other people's spells and blow them up in their face. most people i know that dont like being a mage is because they dont want to have to pick spells and then be stuck with them (whether its for a day like a wizard or until they can retrain their spells like a sorc)

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 05:26 PM
Yeah, but if she's all "NO,NO,NO,NO,NO ROUGE. NUH-UH." then we've got to think of something else. I'd second Scout or possibly Ranger. Homebrew trading out ranger casting for a bonus feat whenever she'd get a new spell level, and take Swift Hunter feat from CAdv or CScound (never can remember).

EDIT: If she's a new player, I'd shy away from Swordsage a little. It's a great fit and fun to play, but she doesn't want to be a caster, and she seems newbie-ish.

Not sure about newbie-ish as much as very very strong RP-over-power in a fairly optimized group.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-16, 05:28 PM
Then remind her that just because the class says "Rogue", doesn't mean she should be "Thief".

Fax Celestis
2010-07-16, 05:31 PM
Failing swordsage, you could try my monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238).

Eldariel
2010-07-16, 05:32 PM
Then remind her that just because the class says "Rogue", doesn't mean she should be "Thief".

Aye; Rogue covers a wide variety of archetypes. The widest out of the PHB-classes, perhaps. Basically every mundane skilled character (that isn't a Ranger) is a Rogue. Warrior, thief, guard, you name it, Rogue does it. There's more to the name than that.

Mongoose87
2010-07-16, 05:57 PM
Here's an odd idea: Convince your DM that Ascetic Rogue does let Monk and Rogue stack for Sneak Attack. Then, have here go rogue 1/Monk x. Not great, but slightly better than a crappy Monk.

FMArthur
2010-07-16, 06:21 PM
Factotum can work too, using Knowledge Devotion, Iaijutsu Focus, or just plain using the Font of Inspiration feat over and over until she has Int to everything forever, or a heap of extra standard actions. It can be magical if she likes but Factotum is also just good enough at melee to slip by without using magic (and is the best at skills).

fryplink
2010-07-16, 06:38 PM
Factotum (already said, but it deserves a look)

Wildshape ranger? or standard ranger is wildshape is too much magic.
No one needs more wildshapers

Unarmed swordsage has already been said too

Barbarian, refluffed slightly, someone who doesn't wear heavy armor, who gets angry about theives but has no formal education... its perfect, just take feats that mitigate the lost power from rogue attributes, unless you just stat for barbarian and run with it

Watchers
2010-07-16, 06:55 PM
I, for once, would suggest Daring Outlaw, as mentioned above.

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 07:19 PM
Factotum (already said, but it deserves a look)

Wildshape ranger? or standard ranger is wildshape is too much magic.

Unarmed swordsage has already been said too

Barbarian, refluffed slightly, someone who doesn't wear heavy armor, who gets angry about theives but has no formal education... its perfect, just take feats that mitigate the lost power from rogue attributes, unless you just stat for barbarian and run with it

Hey! Wildshaping is MY job around here! My little anthro bat self is the only one that's allowed to turn into bears! :smallyuk:

fryplink
2010-07-16, 07:48 PM
Whats this about wildshaping? I have no idea what you're talking about...

anyway, other than barbarian (and wildshaping, who'd wanna do that anyway?) perhaps a paladin of freedom, still loose with the rules, but has a valid excuse to dislike thievery, or if you can find a quarterstaff long enough for implantation, standard paladin

or bard, I think there is a ACF that trades off spells for better bard song, but I'm not sure, the idea that your character is an ex-thief who took up the performing arts goes almost perfectly with bard

DragoonWraith
2010-07-16, 07:50 PM
If dead-set on "Monk", I like this one (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en&pli=1).

Soranar
2010-07-16, 07:56 PM
1rst, an INT based monk really works better for multiclassing (as int is always useful for skills)

so taking the kung-fu genius or carmendine monk feat is recommended

2nd

ascetic rogue is not a terrible feat (add 2 to stunning fist DC when it's a sneak attack and rogue gets unarmed strike progression that stacks with monk levels)

so Rogue x/ Monk 1

Take stunning fists like normal (but based on intel with kung-fu genius) and the decisive strike variant (double damage 1 round with full action, add 2 to DC for stunning fists if used together)

sneak, stun with +4 to your DC , repeat until death results (at low levels it will work fairly often and you have plenty of skills to do other things

or flurry and concentrate on getting as many attacks as possible with SA damage

other viable options

Monk 1/ Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler x

instead of ascetic rogue use daring outlaw and fight with weapons (again you're still DEX and INT based

Rogue 1/Swordsage x

-swordsage lets you use your DEX to damage with shadow blade
-you can still wear light armor and gain Wis to AC on top of it
-some stances also pump your SA (assassin's)

While this is quite strong, it also limits some things as you're still MAD (DEX, WIS, INT, CON)

JaronK
2010-07-16, 08:01 PM
Swordsage and Factotum pop to mind, though Factotums do have limited casting.

JaronK

Optimystik
2010-07-16, 08:08 PM
so taking the kung-fu genius or carmendine monk feat is recommended.

I would just like to point out that the two feats aren't totally interchangeable - Kung-Fu Genius is the superior of the two. It can be found in Dragon Compendium, while Carmendine Monk is in Champions of Valor.

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 08:24 PM
I would just like to point out that the two feats aren't totally interchangeable - Kung-Fu Genius is the superior of the two. It can be found in Dragon Compendium, while Carmendine Monk is in Champions of Valor.Actually, Carmendine Monk is a tad stronger, if you ignore the fluff requirement, otherwise KFG wins for accessibility.

Optimystik
2010-07-16, 08:33 PM
Actually, Carmendine Monk is a tad stronger, if you ignore the fluff requirement, otherwise KFG wins for accessibility.

I disagree; Carmendine specifically applies only to AC, stunning fist and quivering palm, whereas KFG applies to all monk abilities that use Wis. This means you can take an ACF like Soulwarp Strike, and KFG will key the save DC off your Int modifier, while Carmendine will not.

Also, Carmendine isn't just fluff - you need that item to get the studying bonus, unless your DM lets you just scribble down some notes to study between fights.

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 08:37 PM
I disagree; Carmendine specifically applies only to AC, stunning fist and quivering palm, whereas KFG applies to all monk abilities that use Wis. This means you can take an ACF like Soulwarp Strike, and KFG will key the save DC off your Int modifier, while Carmendine will not.

Also, Carmendine isn't just fluff - you need that item to get the studying bonus, unless your DM lets you just scribble down some notes to study between fights.I guess, if you're planning on using a stunning fist variant. I honestly ignored that possibility because I couldn't think of any offhand that keyed off wis that I actually like, and figured the +10 boost to speed was generally better.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-16, 08:58 PM
There's a feat in The War of the Burning Sky Players Guide that lets you spend stunning fist uses to cast shocking grasp as part of an attack. Not only does this give you incredibly awesome taser fists, but Carmendine Monk will make the DC based on your INT; Kung-Fu Genius will not.

Optimystik
2010-07-16, 09:04 PM
There's a feat in The War of the Burning Sky Players Guide that lets you spend stunning fist uses to cast shocking grasp as part of an attack. Not only does this give you incredibly awesome taser fists, but Carmendine Monk will make the DC based on your INT; Kung-Fu Genius will not.

Psst, other way around.

Carmendine Monk: Int for Monk AC bonus, save DC of quivering palm and stunning fist.

Kung-Fu Genius: "All monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom." (Thus, ACFs and racial subs are included.)

Fax Celestis
2010-07-16, 09:11 PM
Er, that. <_<

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-16, 09:25 PM
There is something to be said for asetic rogue. You take two levels of each and trade away the rogue evasion (becuse you have it from monk) for ray reflection. Now take mage slayer. Be feared by all spellcasters everywhere, as you dodge anything with a reflex save and reflect those touch attacks with you high touch AC and send them back at the mage!

El Dorado
2010-07-16, 10:07 PM
Plain old swashbuckler. Even has a pretty picture.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-16, 10:35 PM
I dislike tinkering with the rules overly much. However, you can address some of the Monk issues without changing any of the rules.

Allow her to pick a couple of flaws to get more feats. Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) and Kung Fu Genius are good choices here.
Allow access to a Sparring Dummy of the Master for training. The ability to make 10' steps as well as 5' steps is a big tactical advantage. So she can flurry for a full attack, then step back 10' to deter a full counterattack.
Encourage her to pick up the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) at level 2. This swaps evasion for the ability to become invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds. It will also allow your Monk who started as a Rogue to add her small amount of sneak attack damage fairly often. (Despite the source book, there's nothing evil about this ACF.) When she gets to level 9, the Blink ability provided by Invisible Fist will key off of INT due to Kung Fu Genius.
If you want to be generous, include a Ring of Evasion in some treasure after the Monk picks up Invisible Fist. She could use a replacement for that that lost evasion capability.