Dresden Files

[devinkowalczyk]

Predictions?
Noticed Details?

Didn't see any others for him

Anyone placed Butcher's rpg based on it?

I think the bullet will kill him, which will release him from Mab's service. Probably will have to go through hell to get out, possibly literaly!

[Mauve Shirt]

The last thread was back in April when Changes came out, so Ok.
I haven't played the RPG. Wouldn't mind doing so.

My favorite guess is Marcone, having decided that Harry's too powerful with his Winter Knight mantle to be considered an asset. Though I also like Fix.
I don't think he'll be free of the mantle. Mab wouldn't let him go that easily.

[SmartAlec]

Wondered if it was the White Court, and Lara's men especially - Dresden always said that he'd kick the White Court out of Chicago as soon as he stopped having bigger problems, and with the death of the Red Court, he no longer has anything to stop him. And they'd certainly know about Thomas's boat. And trying to seduce Dresden is unlikely to work properly, because he's Mab's servant now. Perhaps Lara decided to move pre-emptively.

That said, Kincaid also occurred to me; I've suspected him of having dealings with the Black Court ever since he just 'coincidentally' arranged to take Murphy on holiday at the exact time Mavra wanted leverage over Dresden.

[The Glyphstone]

Wondered if it was the White Court, and Lara's men especially - Dresden always said that he'd kick the White Court out of Chicago as soon as he stopped having bigger problems, and with the death of the Red Court, he no longer has anything to stop him. And they'd certainly know about Thomas's boat. And trying to seduce Dresden is unlikely to work properly, because he's Mab's servant now. Perhaps Lara decided to move pre-emptively.

That said, Kincaid also occurred to me; I've suspected him of having dealings with the Black Court ever since he just 'coincidentally' arranged to take Murphy on holiday at the exact time Mavra wanted leverage over Dresden.


Oddly, I never looked at it from that angle. I figured it was Mavra's timing...she took advantage of the fact that Murphy was out of town to manipulate Dresden while he was alone.

Kincaid is definitely a suspect, but only if someone paid him to do it...and it's not his declared MO anyways, the bullet wasn't through Harry's head.

[Tavar]

Just noticed something while reading through the book a second time; in the dual with the Vampire Noble lady, Dresden Lightning Bends. Seriously, it sounds exactly like Iroh's description of lighting bending in the show.

[Lamech]

I wonder if it was that assassin guy that they let go. I mean he tried straight up shooting Dresden before. Thats who I think is most likely actually.

I doubt it was Kincaid, he seems extra careful when dealing with wizards, plus with his noted sniping skills, and MO he would have gone for the head. I also doubt it was Marcone; Dresden has been really useful to him in the past, he just aquired new spooky powers, and now is great friends with Mab. On the stuipidty scale of 1 being suicide and 10 being eternal torment that scores like a 5.

It could have been a lot of people though. Cowl, white court, summer court, black council, black court, white council, down under, nickleheads, shagnasty, any other necromancer that didn't stay dead, the death curse, He Who Walks Behind, or the ghosts of anyone he killed. Did I miss anyone? And of course, anyone who plans on bringing him back after freeing him from Mab.

[The Glyphstone]

Cowl - Maybe
White Court - Maybe
Summer Court - Maybe
Black Council - Maybe
Black Court: Possible, but I don't think so. It'd have to be a Renfield, and I don't see them very good at long-distance sniping.
White Council - Ehhhh...doubt it. They don't like Harry, but considering he just basically singlehandedly obliterated the Red Court, I can't see the Merlin ordering his murder. Besides, he's still got allies on the Council.
Down Under - who?
Nickleheads - Definitely not. See below for why.
Shagnasty - Very unlikely, last seen fleeing for its life from Injun Joe, probably wouldn't use a gun anyways. It cost a lot of energy for it to come all that way chasing Morgan, it'd probably lose out on the exchange to return explicitly for revenge on Harry even if it won.
Random Necromancer #27: Possible, but very unlikely. A cop-out like that isn't Butcher's style.
Death Curse: It triggered after he was shot, so probably not.
He Who Walks Behind - No, needs to be summoned, wouldn't use a gun (see Shagnasty)
Ghosts: Can't hold physical objects outside poltergeisting.
Other: ???

The bolded ones are my most likely guesses, with Summer Court at the very top. With "HarryXXXMab" playing in HD to every member of the Faerie Courts, they certainly know he's the new Knight, and killing the other court's Knight is a clearly allowed power play. If it's not them, my money lies on either Black Council again, the White Court, or a new player we haven't met (possibly tied to the Black Council).

As for the Nickleheads....they'll be coming back. It was a bit of a throwaway line in one of the previous books, but Nick's daughter said "he always gives someone three chances to join him". Harry's been given two - thus, I consider this very heavy foreshadowing that Nick is still alive, and won't have Harry offed yet.

[Lamech]

Down Under - who?The demon Dresden summoned up in the second book was trying to get him to join. Its like a cabal of demons or something, and Dresden has pissed off quite a few. He mentions it again when refusing Lash.


Nickleheads - Definitely not. See below for why.Well the knights of the blacked whachamacallit. They aren't united. Although not Nicks guys.


Black Court: Possible, but I don't think so. It'd have to be a Renfield, and I don't see them very good at long-distance sniping.Why would it need to be a Renfield? As opposed to doing it themselves or hiring an assassin?



White Council - Ehhhh...doubt it. They don't like Harry, but considering he just basically singlehandedly obliterated the Red Court, I can't see the Merlin ordering his murder. Besides, he's still got allies on the Council.Probably not as an official action, but some wizard who thinks he's evil, and a big threat? Just hire a two-bit assassin.


Shagnasty - Very unlikely, last seen fleeing for its life from Injun Joe, probably wouldn't use a gun anyways. It cost a lot of energy for it to come all that way chasing Morgan, it'd probably lose out on the exchange to return explicitly for revenge on Harry even if it won.Why wouldn't it use a gun? And if coming after Morgan was a good deal, I don't see how popping out and killing a much more powerful wizard wouldn't be a bad idea.
Plus can't skinwalkers take apprentices? I could see him taking one on in exhange for Dresden.

He Who Walks Behind - No, needs to be summoned, wouldn't use a gun (see Shagnasty)Did he ever leave after last time?


Ghosts: Can't hold physical objects outside poltergeisting.How common are those?

[Mauve Shirt]

Good people of this thread, I am a massive nerd with a lack of good ideas for a final project for my class, so I am giving a persuasive speech about why people should read the Dresden Files. Anyone have any good ideas for slide images?

[KnightDisciple]

Good people of this thread, I am a massive nerd with a lack of good ideas for a final project for my class, so I am giving a persuasive speech about why people should read the Dresden Files. Anyone have any good ideas for slide images?You're welcome. :smallwink:
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/Motivators2/DresdenFiles1.jpg

[devinkowalczyk]

That is an AWESOME picture



Anyone feel the sniper attack should have occured at the begining of the next book?

[estradling]

Given that the title of the next book is Ghost Story... No I don't think so. :D

[thorgrim29]

I don't know who killed him, but if it's a gambit to release him from Mab it's likely Ivy through Kinkaid, perhaps helped by the Grey Council. If it's an enemy my money's on Lara, or maybe Maeve.

As to what happens to him after, I'd have to say Kumori rezzes him after he has a wacky not-quite-ghost astral voyage for a hundred or so pages. Also I couldn't put the book down until 4am so a few of the details are a bit fuzzy, did Murph loose her job or not?

And I haven't played the RPG but would like to at some time or other, problem is I'm the only one in my group who reads the books and I suck at DMing.

[Mauve Shirt]

You're welcome. :smallwink:
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/Motivators2/DresdenFiles1.jpg

EXCELLENT!
Do you know who drew that? It's spectacular.

Also, shouldn't we be spoiling that speculation?

[ninja_penguin]

As to what happens to him after, I'd have to say Kumori rezzes him after he has a wacky not-quite-ghost astral voyage for a hundred or so pages. Also I couldn't put the book down until 4am so a few of the details are a bit fuzzy, did Murph loose her job or not?

Yeah, Murph lost her job. Rudolph went after her again to get her badge, and apparently the best she could get would be early retirement.

Would like to see Kumori again, provided she didn't get asploded by the darkhallow.

[SmartAlec]

I'd heard that Butcher had mentioned to someone at a book-signing that Bob is Dresden's primary sidekick for Ghost Story. Seeing as Bob is himself a spirit, I wonder if we might see the pair of them cruising through various afterlives, and that Dresden spends the majority of the book dead, and trying to solve the mystery of who killed him while dead.

Another character I wondered if we'd see again - because it seems such an obvious character to include - is Mort Lindquist, the ectomancer guy who talks to spirits. If Harry has some need to warn Murphy of something (say, if it WAS Kincaid who shot him), we might be looking at something very much like the movie Ghost.

[BRC]

That picture is going into my collection.
Am I the only one who kind of hopes that the next book will shift away from Harry for abit. I mean, I love the character and his narrative style, and while Changes was awesome, it set Harry at a new power level which I don't entierly like. Remember old Harry who was threatened by a guy with a gun? Not New Harry who could tear his way through a massive army.

[KnightDisciple]

That picture is going into my collection.
Am I the only one who kind of hopes that the next book will shift away from Harry for abit. I mean, I love the character and his narrative style, and while Changes was awesome, it set Harry at a new power level which I don't entierly like. Remember old Harry who was threatened by a guy with a gun? Not New Harry who could tear his way through a massive army.Well. Unless Butcher radically breaks the mold for Ghost Story, it's doubtful. Who would narrate the book?

Now, that said. Side Jobs is out in a couple more months, and it will have all the short stories and novellas he's done so far. With a brand new one from Murphy's perspective. So that's at least a few that shift away from him.

But you can't defocus too much; it is, after all, the Dresden Files.

And perhaps levels will be adjusted in Ghost Story.

[The Glyphstone]

For that matter, he called in a huge pile of favors and allies for his army-crushing rampage. I imagine some of them will be hard to replace.

[BRC]

For that matter, he called in a huge pile of favors and allies for his army-crushing rampage. I imagine some of them will be hard to replace.
True. I don't know, I just in some ways miss the older stories, and the Climax of Changes, while awesome, was a little much.

But also, you can't remove him from the series. It's the Dresden Files, he is Harry Dresden (Also, I read the first book of Codex Alera and hated it, so I have little faith in butcher's ability to write not in the snarktastic voice of Harry Dresden).

But yeah. I also kind of want to learn what will happen with lil'maggie (Who must be one messed up traumatized child at this point, I mean seriously).

[Mauve Shirt]

Maggie's going to have some serious psychological problems.

I listened to the older books at the gym last week, and I agree that under-to-reasonably-powered Harry is charming. I liked Harry's power level in Turn Coat, but with the power of the Winter Knight, Changes Harry is a tad ridiculous. I will be mad, though, if there's a perspective switch for an entire novel. The novellas are great, but it's the Dresden Files.
From what I understand, Ghost Story will be a tale of Harry and Bob on the other side. We already have the first line that verifies it's Harry narrating.

[BRC]

Maggie's going to have some serious psychological problems.

I'm hoping that, with Harry dead, they don't just remove her from the story. Mouse will probably go with her, and I could imagine her being sent to live with her great-great grandfather, or Murphy.

[periscope69]

I doubt that he'll stay dead, maybe be in a near death experience.

Im surprised no one mentioned Uriel. After all the guy gave him SOULPOWER:smallredface: (soulfire) to him and referred to it as an investement so he's got as much in Harry as Mab does.

Wouldnt surprise me if the currents carry Harry to shore as Butters got the urge for a midnight stroll, or the Alphas chase "something" and one finds Harry.

Also, would being legally dead null the Winter Knight pact with Mab? I mean it says "till death" but it never says he has to stay that way and having your heart stop beating and you not breathing probably qualifies.

Though at that point Harry is going to be a legend among the Fey Courts and have to deal with a pissed off Mab (maybe fuel for whatever is after Ghost Story) and probably a smirking Lea.

Maybe we'll finally learn more about his Mom and Dad straight from the horse's mouth.

And maybe find out what Mister really is (I'd bet money he's not an average cat!). After all he's the only thing that Harry's ever seen that's looks the same normally and when using the Third Sight.

I doubt Shagnasty knows how to work a gun and most Council members (white or black) would more likely use magic, a sword, or some sort of sacrificial implement.

[BRC]

I doubt that he'll stay dead, maybe be in a near death experience.

Im surprised no one mentioned Uriel. After all the guy gave him SOULPOWER:smallredface: (soulfire) to him and referred to it as an investement so he's got as much in Harry as Mab does.

Wouldnt surprise me if the currents carry Harry to shore as Butters got the urge for a midnight stroll, or the Alphas chase "something" and one finds Harry.

Also, would being legally dead null the Winter Knight pact with Mab? I mean it says "till death" but it never says he has to stay that way and having your heart stop beating and you not breathing probably qualifies.

Though at that point Harry is going to be a legend among the Fey Courts and have to deal with a pissed off Mab (maybe fuel for whatever is after Ghost Story) and probably a smirking Lea.

Maybe we'll finally learn more about his Mom and Dad straight from the horse's mouth.

And maybe find out what Mister really is (I'd bet money he's not an average cat!). After all he's the only thing that Harry's ever seen that's looks the same normally and when using the Third Sight.

I doubt Shagnasty knows how to work a gun and most Council members (white or black) would more likely use magic, a sword, or some sort of sacrificial implement.
Or Monoc Securities. Papa Odin lended Harry a hand at the big showdown as well.
Or just a hired assassin. Of course, they would need to know where Harry was at the time, but a hired assassin with supernatural backup (A tracking spell perhaps) could easily be responsible.

If the Black Council wanted Harry dead, it wouldn't be beyond their means or methods to mind control some off-duty special forces sniper or something (Not a hired gunman, so he wouldn't even show up on Marcone's radar), lead him to the right spot, and have him take the shot.

And think about it, they have every reason to do so now. Harry and the Grey Council just took out the Red Court, they just single handedly won the war.
In the council, Harry probably became a political figure to rival the Merlin, who might not be entierly opposed to Harry at this point.

[KnightDisciple]

True. I don't know, I just in some ways miss the older stories, and the Climax of Changes, while awesome, was a little much.

But also, you can't remove him from the series. It's the Dresden Files, he is Harry Dresden (Also, I read the first book of Codex Alera and hated it, so I have little faith in butcher's ability to write not in the snarktastic voice of Harry Dresden).

But yeah. I also kind of want to learn what will happen with lil'maggie (Who must be one messed up traumatized child at this point, I mean seriously).Huh. I loved Codex Alera. Go figure. *shrugs*

[Mauve Shirt]

I believe that Jim's answered the "Is Harry still the winter knight" question by saying something like "You don't think Mab will let [death] stop her, do you?" He can't be out of the deal, that would be way too obnoxious. He needs to face at least some of the consequences of his actions.

[periscope69]

I believe that Jim's answered the "Is Harry still the winter knight" question by saying something like "You don't think Mab will let [death] stop her, do you?" He can't be out of the deal, that would be way too obnoxious. He needs to face at least some of the consequences of his actions.

True, but he could mean that if Harry is let out of the deal due to a deathly experience (which he went through in the 3rd book in Bianca's place) she would offer again, possibly even engineering a situation where he might have to (such if she started threatening Maggie or any of his friends) in order to save someone/theday (since I'm thinking he would actually die than take the mantle up again if she threatened Harry himself with physical harm).

[Mauve Shirt]

Mab engineering a situation where he'd have to accept her power to save somebody sounds way too much like a repeat of his situation in Changes. That would not be a good thing for Jim to do.

[ninja_penguin]

Yeah, I think I had mentioned in another Dresden Thread that I assume that Harry will actually have to deal with the choices he made. It seems a cop-out to go 'well, not the winter knight anymore! ta-daaa!'

Edit- and on a side note for people who mentioned the RPG, I'm starting up a game here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161100)

[Lamech]

I believe that Jim's answered the "Is Harry still the winter knight" question by saying something like "You don't think Mab will let [death] stop her, do you?" He can't be out of the deal, that would be way too obnoxious. He needs to face at least some of the consequences of his actions.
Well thats nice... hopefully he'll take advantage of some of the benefits of being winter knight.

[Mauve Shirt]

The exact quote is actually "You think Mab hasn't heard that excuse before?"
But yes, Winter Knight.

[SmartAlec]

Oddly, I never looked at it from that angle. I figured it was Mavra's timing...she took advantage of the fact that Murphy was out of town to manipulate Dresden while he was alone.

Couldn't be. It was Hallowe'en, exactly the time when all these madmen were looking for the Word of Kemmler and to perform the Darkhallow. And Kincaid suggests strongly that he and Murphy go on holiday right then, but has no destination in mind.

I think it likely that Mavra threatened him with Murphy's death (and maybe his own and Dresden's), or used some other leverage, such as his true identity. Mavra would know him - after all, he and Murphy were both at Mavra's place when Dresden attacked. But the possibilitiy that he was 'in on it' from the start can't be discounted.

[The Glyphstone]

Couldn't be. It was Hallowe'en, exactly the time when all these madmen were looking for the Word of Kemmler and to perform the Darkhallow. And Kincaid suggests strongly that he and Murphy go on holiday right then, but has no destination in mind.

I think it likely that Mavra threatened him with Murphy's death (and maybe his own and Dresden's), or used some other leverage, such as his true identity. Mavra would know him - after all, he and Murphy were both at Mavra's place when Dresden attacked. But the possibilitiy that he was 'in on it' from the start can't be discounted.

Right, missed that. Then again, it's possible he was still manipulated - he's a mercenary, and while most of his contracts usually involve fatal violence, I doubt he'd turn down a 'contract' to take his girl off on a nice vacation at a specific time, especially if there was enough money involved.

[periscope69]

Actually, I think I know a way Harry could get out of the role of Winter Knight without a deathly experience. What if he managed to get another Unraveling from Mother Winter? I mean Mab is the one that seems to really want Harry, we haven't heard whether the Mother and Lady really want him (I mean I could see the Lady really abusing him for his insult the last time they met), and Mab is going loony even by fey standards.

I could see a plot for a book being him being charged to take out Mab by Mother Winter if Mab starts really slipping (particularly if Mab starts wanting Mother Winter's power or declares war on the mortal world [since most fey see mortals as food, sources of food, or playthings]).

Heck Toot might try to get one of those to free "Za Lord" since that the Winter Knight gig would hamper the pizza deliveries (and because at this point, I think he really likes Harry). It would also give Toot a time in the spotlight. Also, if Toot managed to off Mab, that would help his growth into a powerful fey lord (something that's been hinted at for a long time).

[ninja_penguin]

If Toot managed to off Mab, I'm pretty sure the supernatural as a whole would either explode, or go crazy in a crazy aggressive re-org situation.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, Toot and his friends already have one Faerie Queen kill to their credit, who says they won't end up with a double-header?

[Soras Teva Gee]

I mean Mab is the one that seems to really want Harry, we haven't heard whether the Mother and Lady really want him (I mean I could see the Lady really abusing him for his insult the last time they met), and Mab is going loony even by fey standards.

Maeve abusing Harry.... whahahhahahahahaha!

A man who's previously withstood her, offed her counterpart while still only half the wizard he is at present, and now has a significant portion of the Court's power on hand. Maeve started having trouble with bowel movements as soon as Mab's show started. Dresden as Winter Knight, hell that's a demotion for her. If not a death threat.

You want a likely assassin she's high on the list. Probably in cahoots with Lily and Fix as the gunman. Remember Fix already pulled a gun on Harry for the mere suspicion he might be the Winter Knight. And the Ladies have already established a working relationship against Mab, apparently failing to pick up on Mab's massive Xanatos Gambit in Proven Guilty.

In fact this is probably the simplest theory for Dresden's shooting.

[periscope69]

Maeve abusing Harry.... whahahhahahahahaha!

A man who's previously withstood her, offed her counterpart while still only half the wizard he is at present, and now has a significant portion of the Court's power on hand. Maeve started having trouble with bowel movements as soon as Mab's show started. Dresden as Winter Knight, hell that's a demotion for her. If not a death threat.

You want a likely assassin she's high on the list. Probably in cahoots with Lily and Fix as the gunman. Remember Fix already pulled a gun on Harry for the mere suspicion he might be the Winter Knight. And the Ladies have already established a working relationship against Mab, apparently failing to pick up on Mab's massive Xanatos Gambit in Proven Guilty.

In fact this is probably the simplest theory for Dresden's shooting.

Except for the fact that as the night, she now holds the leash attached to his collar. Look up what happened when Loyd Slate tried to attack her in Summer Knight. The point of being the Knight is the fact that Harry has to do as he is told by any of the Winter leaders (Lady, Queen, Mother).

[SmartAlec]

Actually, I think I know a way Harry could get out of the role of Winter Knight without a deathly experience. What if he managed to get another Unraveling from Mother Winter? I mean Mab is the one that seems to really want Harry, we haven't heard whether the Mother and Lady really want him (I mean I could see the Lady really abusing him for his insult the last time they met), and Mab is going loony even by fey standards.

Come to think of it, one of the common threads in the Dresden Files is that there's a lot of people who'd like Dresden working for them. And they tend to be the people with an eye on the big picture. Mab, Nicodemus, Lara Raith - do they all know or suspect that he's something special as Lash suggests, and want that something for themselves? Perhaps they do...

As for the Queens of Winter, yes, the position of Winter Knight is essentially that of servant and consort of the Queens. Considering Maeve's 'evil kinkstress' personality, this likely won't go well.

[periscope69]

Come to think of it, one of the common threads in the Dresden Files is that there's a lot of people who'd like Dresden working for them. And they tend to be the people with an eye on the big picture. Mab, Nicodemus, Lara Raith - do they all know or suspect that he's something special as Lash suggests, and want that something for themselves? Perhaps they do...

As for the Queens of Winter, yes, the position of Winter Knight is essentially that of servant and consort of the Queens. Considering Maeve's 'evil kinkstress' personality, this likely won't go well.

Actually, I'm not so sure that they are after Harry because they know he'll have power few others do (if Cowl's comments in Dead Beat are to be believed), but because they know something big is happening and they want is as firepower (like a war, you want every piece of ordinance you can get your hands on).

Though I do think there is a distinct possibility that Mab might tell Maeve to keep away from Harry. Maeve would want to avenge the insult against her that was done by Harry, but Mab is flat out OBSESSED with Harry (I mean I know she's fey but normally you only see that level of obsession on Law and Order SVU).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Except for the fact that as the night, she now holds the leash attached to his collar. Look up what happened when Loyd Slate tried to attack her in Summer Knight. The point of being the Knight is the fact that Harry has to do as he is told by any of the Winter leaders (Lady, Queen, Mother).

No Mab holds the leash. Remember Slate was only the Knight due to Maeve. And a rather pitiful individual besides that. This one is all Mab who is probably still mad at Maeve for the whole thing. Remember how the Knight goes to the nearest Queen on death, and how its transmitted to the next bearer. Slate was Knight because Maeve had it and he was a favorite toy, Fix has it because he was Lily's friend before she ended up Lady. Mab took it from Slate and it was hers to give. I'd be almost suprised if Maeve could do anything to Dresden.

However assuming she can... its Harry frakking Dresden, do you think it would work?

Anything she did short of killing him, he'd just come back and get her when her guard was down ten times as bad. This is the man that has flipped off where not killed gods and entire species and survived. He’s not going to suck it up because he has too, especially because he nominally has too. And frankly I don’t think anyone would (much less should) trust Mab to get involved if Harry wants to off Maeve instead.

Needles to say the fireworks will be interesting.

[Force]

Remember how much trouble Maeve had controlling Slate? She had to unleash a fey succubus with heroin on him in order to stop him from threatening her, and Slate was just plain vanilla mortal with the Winter Knight's mantle slapped on top. A powerful wizard like Harry, with the mantle of the Winter Knight, could probably defy Maeve if he chose to do so.

[Mauve Shirt]

You know, I was rereading Changes and noticed that several times they refer to events in Fool Moon as "a few years ago." Hasn't it been 10 years? Maybe just a tad less? Hardly a few years. And these weren't wizards talking, these were Susan, Murphy, and Tilly. And Harry once.
</meaningless nitpick>

[YPU]

You know, I was rereading Changes and noticed that several times they refer to events in Fool Moon as "a few years ago." Hasn't it been 10 years? Maybe just a tad less? Hardly a few years. And these weren't wizards talking, these were Susan, Murphy, and Tilly. And Harry once.
</meaningless nitpick>

I think Jim has a bit of a tendency to refer to most old cases as "a few years ago" he has a time line but it often seems like he doesn't really know it by hart, or care about that stuff. Nor do I really.

[Mauve Shirt]

Also, Jim has said that we know all of the Grey Council members that showed up at the battle, who are our guesses besides the obvious Eb and Odin?

AND, we should know who gave the FBI guys their wolf belts. Tilly is a suspect for that, since he has a little magical talent, maybe enough to acquire the belts if not make them. And the Erlking I suppose would work, since he's right on the other side, but I don't think he'd be interested enough to get involved with the Black Council.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You know, I was rereading Changes and noticed that several times they refer to events in Fool Moon as "a few years ago." Hasn't it been 10 years? Maybe just a tad less? Hardly a few years. And these weren't wizards talking, these were Susan, Murphy, and Tilly. And Harry once.
</meaningless nitpick>

Has it been ten years though? I hate to use this as a marker, but in which book did Molly talk about being visited by the boob fairy? Since that would have to be only five-six years before present date.

Though you have a point as any reference to pre-Grave Peril days is stretching the "a few years ago" a bit much. Maybe because Murphy and Susan are getting old so anything in their thirties is still a few years ago to them.

[Force]

AND, we should know who gave the FBI guys their wolf belts. Tilly is a suspect for that, since he has a little magical talent, maybe enough to acquire the belts if not make them. And the Erlking I suppose would work, since he's right on the other side, but I don't think he'd be interested enough to get involved with the Black Council.

Cowl is our best bet at the moment. He's Black Council, almost certainly has the mojo necessary to create the belts, and as he wants to destabilize the White Council he has a good motive. He's also a good candidate for the guy who taught Victor Sells/the Shadowman magic.

[Mikeavelli]

Has it been ten years though? I hate to use this as a marker, but in which book did Molly talk about being visited by the boob fairy? Since that would have to be only five-six years before present date.

Though you have a point as any reference to pre-Grave Peril days is stretching the "a few years ago" a bit much. Maybe because Murphy and Susan are getting old so anything in their thirties is still a few years ago to them.

For reference, my grandmother still uses the term "a few years ago" to refer to World War 2.

[Tavar]

AND, we should know who gave the FBI guys their wolf belts. Tilly is a suspect for that, since he has a little magical talent, maybe enough to acquire the belts if not make them. And the Erlking I suppose would work, since he's right on the other side, but I don't think he'd be interested enough to get involved with the Black Council.
Tilly didn't know about magic until Susan/Harry/Murphy told him. Unless he's done some serious breakage of the...4th law? The one about time travel, he's out of it. The Erlking is right on the other side, but he has absolutely no reason to do such a thing. Probably Cowl, or his apprentice person.


Cowl is our best bet at the moment. He's Black Council, almost certainly has the mojo necessary to create the belts, and as he wants to destabilize the White Council he has a good motive. He's also a good candidate for the guy who taught Victor Sells/the Shadowman magic.
Well, the red court could have something to do with that as well. Especially since it was the same spell that they were going to try and use in changed.


I wonder how the Denarians fit into this. it's obvious that some are part of the Black council, but which ones? And in what positions?

[Mauve Shirt]

Tilly didn't know about magic until Susan/Harry/Murphy told him. Unless he's done some serious breakage of the...4th law? The one about time travel, he's out of it.

According to Harry's internal monologue. He's been wrong before.

I do think Cowl is more likely though.

Nicodemus is not on the black council, that we know. Thorned Namshiel definitely is, and I think Tessa?

[YPU]

Tessa?
Perhaps not on but willing to work for them?

EDIT: I started changes, and holy damn that's a banger to start of on.:smalleek:

[Force]

Well, the red court could have something to do with that as well. Especially since it was the same spell that they were going to try and use in changed.


In-universe, yes, but thinking law of drama I don't think so. The Red Court is dead, and beyond the obvious reprecussions, I don't think they're going to end up holding the bag for anything like the wolf belts or the Shadowman. A reveal of who actually was responsible for such actions is worthless if the subjects of the reveal are not only dead but impossible to bring back. Much more effective if Harry gets to throw down with Cowl and Cowl's Reasons You Suck speech involves his Evil Gloating about how much he's accomplished that Harry couldn't stop (the deaths the loup garou/hexenwolves caused, the sheer damage that Three-Eye did, etc).

[Mauve Shirt]

I recall reading that another person to suspect for the wolf belts is Listens To Wind. He knows Tera West, and he's a shapeshifter. This would make him Black Council, which ties in with Shagnasty in Turncoat. But I don't think it's him.

[BRC]

I recall reading that another person to suspect for the wolf belts is Listens To Wind. He knows Tera West, and he's a shapeshifter. This would make him Black Council, which ties in with Shagnasty in Turncoat. But I don't think it's him.
Me neither. I mean, anything is possible, but that would be something of an ass pull.

I personally don't think any of the Senior Council (Well Senior Council pre-Turn Coat) is Black Council. I don't know why, I just do.

[Dragonus45]

Anyone who thinks that the nickleheads are in on the end of changes cus of Nick's whole three times thing. Remember, he fears Harry, he fears him like that fallen friend he chills with fears the big G. And that's word of god straight from the Butchers mouth, with a bit of paraphrasing and possible hyperbole by me.

[tomandtish]

You're welcome. :smallwink:
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/Motivators2/DresdenFiles1.jpg


EXCELLENT!
Do you know who drew that? It's spectacular.

The picture is from Wizard at Large (http://www.sfbc.com/pages/product/productDetail.jsp?skuId=1007886043), which is the Science Fiction Book Club compilation of Blood Rites and Dead Beat.

As for the "few years", remember that wizards live a very long time. With their life span, 10 years is a few years. Harry's not quite there yet, but I suspect the mind set may be rubbing off a little.

[The Glyphstone]

Anyone who thinks that the nickleheads are in on the end of changes cus of Nick's whole three times thing. Remember, he fears Harry, he fears him like that fallen friend he chills with fears the big G. And that's word of god straight from the Butchers mouth, with a bit of paraphrasing and possible hyperbole by me.


That's the thing. the 'three times' thing is basically as close to Word of God we're going to get that the Denarians (or, at least, those who are loyal to Nick and not the Black Council) aren't responsible for the shooting. Butcher is a master of foreshadowing and Chekov's Guns - he would not have included that line if he intended Nick to be responsible for Harry's death. We've got a lot of suspects, but I think they're one of the few we can conclusively rule out, whether or not Nick is scared to death of Harry.

[devinkowalczyk]

I will agree that the nickel heads are one that you can firmly rule out. Their MO is not to use sniper rifles. They prefer to use their nasty super natural powers and just wade in. Look at the Ivy attack on the aquarium. So many of them...

It might be more of an explanation of the person dressed up like susan who hired the other gunman. I feel it wasn't fully explored.

Or it could be the introduction of the Jade court

[The Ik]

There is no way dying can prevent Harry from being the Winter Knight. He's not getting out of so many potential plots so easily.
It's been a general rule that Harry...breaks rules. People don't really come back from death in the Dresden Files much (if you don't count the random hallucinations-or-dreams-or-whatever Harry's had) but he'll find some way around this problem.
There's a short story coming out (in November, I think?) that's written from Murphy's POV that might provide some clues as to what's going on?

[SmartAlec]

It might be more of an explanation of the person dressed up like susan who hired the other gunman. I feel it wasn't fully explored.

That could even have been Susan herself. As grim as it is, killing Harry is the only way to absolutely ensure that their daughter is never used as a piece in some dastardly plot again. The man's just got too many enemies for them to ignore little Maggie.

[Mauve Shirt]

I read the short story Even Hand in the bookstore today, and I'm even more convinced that
Marcone is the person who ordered the hit on Harry. The Winter Knight mantle provides too much power than can be countered by his extensive preparations for the day he has to face Harry in a fight.

[The Glyphstone]

I read the short story Even Hand in the bookstore today, and I'm even more convinced that
Marcone is the person who ordered the hit on Harry. The Winter Knight mantle provides too much power than can be countered by his extensive preparations for the day he has to face Harry in a fight.


Yeah, we kind of forgot about him amidst all these supernatural heavy hitters, didn't we? Who shot him isn't as important as who arranged to have him shot, and Marcone is definitely towards the top of the list, as much as he's drifted towards the anti-hero side of the fence over the course of the series.

[Mauve Shirt]

The only problem I can think of with Marcone doing it is that Odin likes Harry, and Marcone wouldn't want to lose his contract with Monoc Securities. Perhaps he did make a deal with Odin, and the food Odin gave Harry will bring him back to life, as many have surmised, and free Harry of his WK powers, putting him back in a more acceptable and killable range.
Or that might be the plan, anyway. I don't think Harry's getting out of his WK deal that easily.
Hm....

But why would he bring Harry back to life just to waste resources killing him again? Probably Odin wouldn't care if Harry was killed attacking Marcone, which is what Marcone's prepared for in Even Hand anyway.

[Lamech]

AND, we should know who gave the FBI guys their wolf belts. Tilly is a suspect for that, since he has a little magical talent, maybe enough to acquire the belts if not make them. And the Erlking I suppose would work, since he's right on the other side, but I don't think he'd be interested enough to get involved with the Black Council.
What about the black court vampire chick? (Mavora? I'm bad with names and too many start with "Ma") She helped Kravos become a ghost, helped him with his ghostly nastyness, and she apperantly taught Bianca a good bit of her magic. She seems like a good canidate for making belts. Spreading around dark magic, while someone else is the point man.


I still really like the assassin that they let go. I mean its his MO and he was hired to kill Harry.

[periscope69]

AND, we should know who gave the FBI guys their wolf belts. Tilly is a suspect for that, since he has a little magical talent, maybe enough to acquire the belts if not make them. And the Erlking I suppose would work, since he's right on the other side, but I don't think he'd be interested enough to get involved with the Black Council.
What about the black court vampire chick? (Mavora? I'm bad with names and too many start with "Ma") She helped Kravos become a ghost, helped him with his ghostly nastyness, and she apperantly taught Bianca a good bit of her magic. She seems like a good canidate for making belts. Spreading around dark magic, while someone else is the point man.


I still really like the assassin that they let go. I mean its his MO and he was hired to kill Harry.

Her name is Mavra.

One thing that might happen is a time skip to say 10 years in the future. By that time Maggie will be about 18 (I think she's 8 in Changes isn't she? Haven't been able to ahold of the book yet).

She'll go on a "quest" (I'm thinking 18 year old raised around magic so the term quest is not completely out of the question) to learn more about Harry (maybe even find a loop hole in the Winter Knight contract, [she is a Dresden after all] I mean by that age her father had already dealt with a powerful demon [He Who Walks Behind] so it's not out of the question).

She'll tell him all about Master Molly, Grandpa Ebenezer, both of which taught her magic (Ebenezer teaching her the finer points of combat magic as Molly is not adept at combat magic last time I checked, though can hold her own, learn unarmed combat and gunplay from "Aunt" Murphy [who is now a Knight], swordplay from "Uncle" Michael, Murphy, and "Mr." Sanya. She'll talk with Father Forthill when she needs some spiritual advisement. Ivy will be a friend of the family. Bob's a riot of course. Mouse always wants his belly rubs and Mister will....well he's Mister:smallcool: (and he's somehow found the key to immortality but that's just my opinion :smallbiggrin: ). Oh, and Major General Toot Toot is her playmate (and her food taster when she tries to learn how to cook which will end in disaster :smallwink: ).

On the serious side of things, I think there are too many factions that probably want Harry eliminated for anybody to make a definitive theory on who had Harry shot.

However I do think that it wasn't Marcone. Marcone would probably see more reasons to keep Harry alive then have him killed, chief of which is that Harry protects the people of Chicago, including Children (one of Marcone's concerns).

I'd also say that Uriel will have a hand in helping Harry out of the Winter Knight deal.

[Mauve Shirt]

I still really like the assassin that they let go. I mean its his MO and he was hired to kill Harry.

Well, he could be the trigger, but he gave up on that job. And who hired him the second time is the question? There's no longer a Red Court.

Also, not gonna happen, Periscope. Well, at least not in Ghost Story. Jim's said we'll have the usual timeskip of a year, and the book is about Harry solving his own murder.
I said in the last thread about this, if the Dresden Files stops being about Harry and starts being about Maggie, I'm quitting. Well, I'll stop buying the books, anyway.

[YPU]

I said in the last thread about this, if the Dresden Files stops being about Harry and starts being about Maggie, I'm quitting. Well, I'll stop buying the books, anyway.
We want Harry! :smallbiggrin:

[periscope69]

Well, he could be the trigger, but he gave up on that job. And who hired him the second time is the question? There's no longer a Red Court.

Also, not gonna happen, Periscope. Well, at least not in Ghost Story. Jim's said we'll have the usual timeskip of a year, and the book is about Harry solving his own murder.
I said in the last thread about this, if the Dresden Files stops being about Harry and starts being about Maggie, I'm quitting. Well, I'll stop buying the books, anyway.

Maybe Harry is in a coma for part of that year then? That might give Mab incentive to at least get a new temporary Winter Knight (though she did let that Loyd Slate guy linger for a while).

I'm thinking that Maggie is going to at least become seriously involved in the series, if not the focus (sort of like Molly Carpenter). Though, she may end up staying at Ebenezer's farm (assuming he doesn't get killed in a later novel), which may be expedient until Harry gets a new place to live (either provided by the Winter Court since I think that's one of the perks, like with the old Summer Knight, or simply the old place repaired [handled by Michael Carpenter's contracting company and paid for by Johnny Marcone :smallwink: ] ).

[Mauve Shirt]

Harry's not in a coma, Harry is D-E-D dead. He's not even in a coma for a little bit, 45 minutes after Changes Murphy says "I can't believe he's really dead."

Maggie will certainly be involved in the series, no point introducing her otherwise. However, Harry's narration makes the series.

[periscope69]

I don't think that anyone can be sure that he is dead since from my understanding he got shot in the shoulder and fell into the water. He might hover between life and death but I doubt that he'll get out and out killed off (especially since Jim Butcher said that Harry still has 7 - 10 books to go).

[Lamech]

Well, he could be the trigger, but he gave up on that job. And who hired him the second time is the question? There's no longer a Red Court.
Gave up? You trust an assassin to keep his word and not change his mind? Even if he was honest when he said he was giving up he might have thought "You know I'm a big fan of money, and I'm also a big fan of people who hire assassins not being ticked at me. Maybe I really should shoot Dresden."

Also do we really know who hired him? Sure it was someone who looked like Susan, but that only leaves how many shapeshifters? (Or was it dressed? I remember someone in the thread saying dressed... If the person only dressed like Susan that pretty much leaves the Red Court out...)

Harry is definitly dead. Dead, dead dead. And in the Dresden world that means you stay dead and gone... unless you get ressurected by a powerful necromancer. Or an apprentice to a powerful necromancer. So that leaves like two people who could ressurect Harry, who might actually do it. Or you happen to be Dresden's dad, in which case you can kind of just wander back whenever you feel like it.

[The Glyphstone]

Harry is definitly dead. Dead, dead dead. And in the Dresden world that means you stay dead and gone... unless you get ressurected by a powerful necromancer. Or an apprentice to a powerful necromancer. So that leaves like two people who could ressurect Harry, who might actually do it. Or you happen to be Dresden's dad, in which case you can kind of just wander back whenever you feel like it.



Dresden's dad? Unless I'm dreadfully misremembering something, his father wasn't even a wizard. He was a bog-standard mortal stage magician, I don't think he's made an appearance even in flashbacks or memories yet.

[periscope69]

Harry is definitly dead. Dead, dead dead. And in the Dresden world that means you stay dead and gone... unless you get ressurected by a powerful necromancer. Or an apprentice to a powerful necromancer. So that leaves like two people who could ressurect Harry, who might actually do it. Or you happen to be Dresden's dad, in which case you can kind of just wander back whenever you feel like it.[/SPOILER]

The author actually said that Harry isn't done yet, and did flat out say that Changes is only the halfway point in Harry's series (note: he said HARRY'S series so me thinks he's gonna pull something ie like Kumori keeping Harry alive).

Harry might be assumed dead if they don't find the body which might lead to Murphy saying "I can't believe he's dead". I mean the last thing Harry saw was a train coming for him (ok saw a light, heard a train).

So Harry might come closer to death then he ever has before, but he's definitely coming out on this side of the line. I'd bet cold, hard cash on it.

[Mauve Shirt]

I don't think that anyone can be sure that he is dead since from my understanding he got shot in the shoulder and fell into the water. He might hover between life and death but I doubt that he'll get out and out killed off (especially since Jim Butcher said that Harry still has 7 - 10 books to go).

Jim Butcher has said he's dead. :smallsigh: "Isn't done" doesn't mean "still alive" in a world with magic including necromancy. Lemme look for one of those instances.

Lamech, you have a point. I still think it's not important if Stevie D. pulled the trigger or not, because it's who hired him that matters.

[Lamech]

Lamech, you have a point. I still think it's not important if Stevie D. pulled the trigger or not, because it's who hired him that matters.True. Metastory I would say not the red court because that would defeat the point of Harry solving his own murder.

Well now I'm back to square one...

[Mauve Shirt]

Dresden's dad? Unless I'm dreadfully misremembering something, his father wasn't even a wizard. He was a bog-standard mortal stage magician, I don't think he's made an appearance even in flashbacks or memories yet.

He has made an appearance, as a ghost at the end of Dead Beat.

For those doubting that Harry is dead, Jim wanted to call the next book "Dead", but the publisher wouldn't allow it.

[The Glyphstone]

He has made an appearance, as a ghost at the end of Dead Beat.

For those doubting that Harry is dead, Jim wanted to call the next book "Dead", but the publisher wouldn't allow it.

Right, forgot about that one.

[devinkowalczyk]

Maybe some kind of ghostly journey to learn more about...something?

[YPU]

He has made an appearance, as a ghost at the end of Dead Beat.

Call me mad, but dresden dead seemed quite active, there were things he was afraid of etz, it sugets quite an interesting "live" considering he has been dead quite some time. Then again the things he was afraid of might just have been in Dresdens head.

Anyhow, I would love to read about Dresdens view of the afterlife.

[Mauve Shirt]

Maybe some kind of ghostly journey to learn more about...something?

Ghostly journey to learn more about who murdered him.

http://www.scifinow.co.uk/news/interview-jim-butcher/

[BRC]

He has made an appearance, as a ghost at the end of Dead Beat.

For those doubting that Harry is dead, Jim wanted to call the next book "Dead", but the publisher wouldn't allow it.


I remember Harry having a dream about his dad. But that's a far cry from "Showing up as a ghost"

[Force]

I remember Harry having a dream about his dad. But that's a far cry from "Showing up as a ghost"

Considering the number of times Harry has had conversations with his subconscious, my guess is that the image of his father wasn't a ghost but was a part of Harry's mind.

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh yeah, it was a dream wasn't it. Sorry, haven't read that one in a while.

Hey I've got a question. Can Harry use his Winter Knight powers when he's not on a mission for Mab? He gets the power directly from her. Could he have used his ice magic against the vampires had Mab not allowed him to?

[thorgrim29]

You know, I have a love/hate relationship with may and june... One the one hand, I get my Dresden fix, and a lot of series have awesome finales, on the other hand I have 7 months to wait for the new Who season, 5 for most american shows, and a year for the next Dresden book...

Back on subject, what happens to Molly after Harry dies? They both went AWOL, witch can't be a good thing for the whole Sword of Damocles situation, and now the guy who was responsible for her not evilness is dead. McCoy will probably try to help her but still, won't be fun for the grasshopper. Also I wonder if Gard will show up in Ghost Story in her official functions.

[Tavar]

They went AWOL from a potential attack against the Red Court in order to partake in an attack that destroyed the red court utterly. Merlin may be a ass, but he's not that big of one. Especially since Harry is now dead, and thus the threat he would have represented is diminished.

[Lamech]

Back on subject, what happens to Molly after Harry dies?

I distinctly remember the white council getting all screwed up in the background of changes. They may be too busy. Also the whole hero status. Also who ever was sending the outsiders at the council is still alive... and those knights of the cross who slice through them? They probably want to be on their good side.

[Mauve Shirt]

The White Council is going to try to kill Molly as soon as they're done being sick. I doubt they'll even realize that it was Harry who destroyed the Red Court, since the only people on the council who saw it were the grey council, and there is no grey council.

[Tavar]

There's no Grey Council, but McCoy can tell them what went down. Plus several other rather well connected beings.

[Mauve Shirt]

No, McCoy can't. That's the point. The Grey Council can't be discovered by the White Council, and to reveal that they were there would be to reveal that they are on the Grey Council.

[Tavar]

How is saying that McCoy was there in any way reveal the grey council? All it does is reveal that he, the proclaimed heavy weight champion when it comes to magical fights, took part in/lead a brilliant counterstroke that destroyed the Red Court. Which, if you remember, what was supposed to happen.

[periscope69]

It might raise suspicions as to why he was there in the first place, and why was he their in the first place without informing the council as a whole? Might raise the Black Courts suspicions.

Also, Harry might be dead but that doesn't mean he has to stay that way.

Mab wouldn't let him, Uriel has invested too much to just let him drop dead, and if you read Norse mythology, coming back to life is a big part of their afterlife and I doubt Odin or Gard are going to let someone like Harry suffer such a death. I mean seriously a gun shot? After Red, White, and Black court attempts on his life, the Council (both White and Black) gunning for him, 3 different breeds of werewolf, Fallen Angels, and the Summer and Winter Courts his death comes from the barrel of a gun? Boom, splash, that's it?

Also, mythology is full of people who make it back from the other side. Who's to say that Harry wouldn't have something like that forced on him (in the case of Mab) or would choose to come back (like with Uriel, probably showing him what would happen if he didn't come back).

[YPU]

It might raise suspicions as to why he was there in the first place, and why was he their in the first place without informing the council as a whole? Might raise the Black Courts suspicions.

Also, Harry might be dead but that doesn't mean he has to stay that way.

Mab wouldn't let him, Uriel has invested too much to just let him drop dead, and if you read Norse mythology, coming back to life is a big part of their afterlife and I doubt Odin or Gard are going to let someone like Harry suffer such a death. I mean seriously a gun shot? After Red, White, and Black court attempts on his life, the Council (both White and Black) gunning for him, 3 different breeds of werewolf, Fallen Angels, and the Summer and Winter Courts his death comes from the barrel of a gun? Boom, splash, that's it?

Also, mythology is full of people who make it back from the other side. Who's to say that Harry wouldn't have something like that forced on him (in the case of Mab) or would choose to come back (like with Uriel, probably showing him what would happen if he didn't come back).

You forgot the fay embodiment of the hunt.

[Mauve Shirt]

I have no doubt he'll make it back from the other side. I am actually looking forward to a book of him as a ghost, though. Solving a mystery invisibly, only communicating through Mort, with Bob as his sidekick, sounds pretty nifty to me. :smallbiggrin: I wouldn't want that to be the whole series, but for a single book it'll probably be a cool story.

[devinkowalczyk]

Didn't mort die/lose his powers
or am I mixing him up with a constantine book?

[KnightDisciple]

Didn't mort die/lose his powers
or am I mixing him up with a constantine book?Mortimer Lindquist? If anything, he's notably stronger than he was.

[Lamech]

Didn't mort die/lose his powers
or am I mixing him up with a constantine book?

Yes, by becoming a fraud he lost a lot of his powers. But that happened before Mort was ever introduced. Since Morts introduction he has gotten much more powerful, and he has significant influence with the ghosts and spirits, and can contact large numbers of them.

[Mauve Shirt]

Question! If one-trick wonders like Mort get regularly checked in on by the Wardens, why don't one-trick wonders like the Alphas? Also, if a practitioner who would otherwise be White Council signs the accords as a free-holding lord, can they break the laws of magic all they like?

[The Glyphstone]

The Alphas aren't wizards. Therefore, they're not worthy of the Council paying attention to them.:smallconfused: Alternatively, their one trick (shapeshifting) isn't a potential violation of the Laws of Magic, while summoning and communicating with spirits is wandering in the direction of necromancy - so, the Wardens keep an eye on Mort to make sure he hasn't gone warlock.

As for an independent wizard signing as a freeholding lord - to be a freeholding lord, you have to earn the status and be capable of defending your claim. It's very unlikely that any wizard not part of the Council would be capable of doing so, and there's no indication that you can just 'leave' the Council once you join.

[Mauve Shirt]

I don't get how the Alphas could have learned such a significant trick without having a little bit of magic in them, but that's just me not getting how it works.

[YPU]

I don't get how the Alphas could have learned such a significant trick without having a little bit of magic in them, but that's just me not getting how it works.

I think it is mentioned that you have to have specific talent for it, however that talent does not necessarily coincide with a large talent for magic, tough it is a part of it.

I somewhat figured that a unstable self image (as could be found in teenage geeks?) should help with learning shapeshifting.

[Tavar]

Plus, they did have someone helping them. Well, something. You now, the woman-wolf.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, having a wolfwere as your instructor's gotta count for something.

[Lamech]

I don't get how the Alphas could have learned such a significant trick without having a little bit of magic in them, but that's just me not getting how it works.I suspect that the glyphstone is right that the Alphas really can't do much to break the laws of magic. They might come closish to breaking the first law, but in death masks Dresden says that the wardens probably didn't do the disease curse because it would be too close to breaking the first law. So if killing people with magical disease constructs is shady but okay, I highly doubt shapeshifting and then tearing someones throat out really counts.

I suppose a freeholding lord might be able to break the laws of magic, but the white council might do something like, declare war. And then try to kill them, which is pretty much exactly how they deal with every other black wizard.

[tomandtish]

Assuming McCoy is willing to speak up, I don’t think Molly has too much to worry about. After all, she was part of the raid as well. Heck, this might be enough to get the Doom lifted off her. (Probably not, but who knows).



There is no way dying can prevent Harry from being the Winter Knight. He's not getting out of so many potential plots so easily.
It's been a general rule that Harry...breaks rules. People don't really come back from death in the Dresden Files much (if you don't count the random hallucinations-or-dreams-or-whatever Harry's had) but he'll find some way around this problem.
There's a short story coming out (in November, I think?) that's written from Murphy's POV that might provide some clues as to what's going on?


As for the Winter Knight issue, I suspect that it is out of Harry and Mab’s hands. Based on what’s been written so far, when the Knight dies, the Mantle of the Knight returns to the nearest of the three Queens. Therefore, once he dies, Harry is no longer the Knight. I suppose it is possible that once he is alive again the power could say “Oh, he’s alive again” and come back to him, but barring that unlikely act, the power has returned to one of the queens. Harry would have to accept it again to be the Winter Knight. This doesn’t mean that Mab won’t try and make his life miserable to get him to accept, but he’ll still have to accept. Of course, she knows he has a daughter now, so there’s a new source of leverage.

Given the way the power appears to work, I’m wondering if Maeve had Harry killed. She’s been worried that Mab is insane, and she’s not going to like that Harry is under Mab’s control. If she arranged to have Harry killed, she could place herself to be the nearest of the queens in order to have the mantle return to her. This allows her to pick the next Knight, as well as stabbing Mab in the back. It would be interesting to know how Queens replace each other, which would help evaluate the chances of a serious power grab by Maeve. She’s not much for solid planning or discipline, but she might think she could pull it off.

[Mauve Shirt]

Does it go to the nearest queen or the nearest vessel? Because I'd just about die of laughter if Toot toot got the power of the winter knight.

[Erts]

Hey I've got a question. Can Harry use his Winter Knight powers when he's not on a mission for Mab? He gets the power directly from her. Could he have used his ice magic against the vampires had Mab not allowed him to?

(Jumping out of lurking)

He can. Slate did it, if I remember correctly. The whole point of the Knights are so that the Courts have a hand in the mortal world.


Theories on not only who killed him, but also who's going to help him get back?
My thoughts:
I think who killed him is either
White Court: They would know that he went to the Water Beetle. Lara could have ordered the hit.
Black Council: Pretty standard for these guys, being the mysterious men in the shadows they are.

How Harry gets back
Cowl: He has the power to do it, motivation could be to try to get Harry on his sides.
Erlking: This is more a crack theory. Maybe the Erlking wants to be able to hunt Harry some night?
Molly: Turning back to twisted black magic, trying to raise Harry.


Well that's my thoughts.

[Mauve Shirt]

I suspect, since Bob will be a major character in Ghost Story, that he'll have something to do with Harry's revival. He was Kemmler's right-hand skull, after all.

Speaking of Ghost Story,
http://www.littlebrown.co.uk/Title/9781841497617

[periscope69]

I suspect, since Bob will be a major character in Ghost Story, that he'll have something to do with Harry's revival. He was Kemmler's right-hand skull, after all.

Speaking of Ghost Story,
http://www.littlebrown.co.uk/Title/9781841497617

Well that description shot my theory of who did it out of the water :smallfrown:

Guess I just gotta wait till I get the book then...

[Mauve Shirt]

229 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes. (http://toreadornottoread-vampangel.blogspot.com/2010/07/countdown-clock-widget-for-side-stories.html) :smalltongue:

[Erts]

229 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes. (http://toreadornottoread-vampangel.blogspot.com/2010/07/countdown-clock-widget-for-side-stories.html) :smalltongue:

I find it best to just forget about it, poke my head back up in April, and read it. Course, what I did before Changes was re-read the books. Very fun.

[SmartAlec]

I suspect, since Bob will be a major character in Ghost Story, that he'll have something to do with Harry's revival. He was Kemmler's right-hand skull, after all.

Bob is a spirit of intellect; it's possible he'll be hanging with Dresden for a while outside of the skull, in the Nevernever. Thinking about it, he's the only character who can hang with Dresden.

[devinkowalczyk]

But a spirit of intellect doesn't necessarily mean he can interact with the spirits of the dead.
Lousy english, not very descriptive

[Mauve Shirt]

I read somewhere when haunting the Jim Butcher forums after Changes came out that Bob will be Harry's sidekick in Ghost Story. So yeah, he can contact him.
You know who I hope shows up in Ghost Story? Michael. He was one of my fave characters and he's disappeared. I've read The Warrior, I know he's happy now, but I'd still like to see him again.

[YPU]

I read somewhere when haunting the Jim Butcher forums after Changes came out that Bob will be Harry's sidekick in Ghost Story. So yeah, he can contact him.
You know who I hope shows up in Ghost Story? Michael. He was one of my fave characters and he's disappeared. I've read The Warrior, I know he's happy now, but I'd still like to see him again.

I find all the knights hilarious to read for some reason. But I guess Michael might be one of the select few who can see harry?

EDIT: a bit of topic, but did the big B say anything about his other series yet, the new one?

[KnightDisciple]

I've yet to hear anything. It won't be until at least next year, though. His writing time this year has been focused on Ghost Story and some short stories, culminating in his collection of said short stories (which will include Aftermath, a new novella).

Incidentally, Jim's still very much shaved.:smalltongue:

[Mauve Shirt]

His new series is post-apocalyptic, something like the heroes stormed the castle to defeat the big bad, and they lost, and that's where the story begins. I think it's steampunky, too.

[Kane]

I'm going to be honest here; clicked on page four of this thread, read the latest post, went, "Oh. That's interesting. Okay." and then clicked back.

After a few seconds my mind sufficiently processed Mauve Shirt's post, namely the 'post apocalyptic', 'starts after the heroes lose', and 'steampunk-y'. Then I went and clicked forward...

We... We shall certainly have to see.

[Somebloke]

Got so sick and tired of the hype, the tidbits from the rpg and this forum that I went and grabbed Storm Front on special at my bookstore.

Three weeks and £90 later, I've burnt my way through the entire series. It really is a horribly addictive little series.

I will follow this entire series to it's entirety (unless Molly gets killed). I'm hoping this is going to be a 'earn your happy ending' series rather than a 'kill em all' or 'bittersweet' ending. I'm far to attached to the characters to be happy with that.

[Mauve Shirt]

HA! You are caught now, Somebloke! Hopefully you don't get stuck in the reread cycle like so many. Help me.
I'm pretty sure there's going to be a happy ending. For someone, anyway. We have 12 or so years to wait before we find out!

[KnightDisciple]

His new series is post-apocalyptic, something like the heroes stormed the castle to defeat the big bad, and they lost, and that's where the story begins. I think it's steampunky, too.Hm. I've seen nothing of Jim actually confirming such a thing. I recall him talking about it, but having searched his site, and following him on twitter, I don't recall anything of the sort being made official.:smallconfused:

[Mauve Shirt]

Justasec, I saw it in one of the Q&A interviews on Youtube from April...

"Since I finished Codex Alera, am I going to be working on something else to take its place? Yes! I'm sure. I'm not quite sure what yet. I would have to much time on my hands if I didn't, so I think what I'm planning on is kind of a post-apocalyptic fantasy thing that I'm gonna write with my friend Cam Banks, because Cam is one of the only guys I know who can actually put up with me long enough to do that. But it's sort of one of those 'The heroes went forth to face the dark lord, fulfill the prophecy, and y'know, bravely did they stride in upon him, and he killed them all, and the world was plunged into darkness.' Chapter one."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxHxfB_ElU Quote's within the first few minutes.

He also talks about it here (http://theauthorhour.com/jim-butcher/), but you're right, it's not "confirmed" yet.

[YPU]

"I look like the Games Workshop version of a Jedi knight!"

My god, by geek for geeks all the way eh?

[Mauve Shirt]

You know, the Eebs said they weren't "of the first Maya". Are they still alive?
If they aren't being tortured for eternity by the Erlking, that could matter some.

[devinkowalczyk]

i think so everyone there died and some of them were things like half bloods (and remember susan wasn't a first) that they are all dead dead dead

[Eldan]

By the way, was it just me or did Butcher confuse Maya and Aztecs a few times in that book?

[Mauve Shirt]

Yeah, it seems more likely that the Eebs would be dead. I really really hope it's true that the red court is completely eradicated. Have I mentioned in this thread that I am glad Susan is dead?

Eldan: Not just you. I'm pretty sure he did, but I don't feel like reading up on each just to point out his problems. :smalltongue: Wikipedia article's far too long.

[Erts]

You know, the Eebs said they weren't "of the first Maya". Are they still alive?
If they aren't being tortured for eternity by the Erlking, that could matter some.

Naw, I don't think they are. Narratively, I think Changes marked the end for Harry and the Red Court, and it's a sign that the series is continuing past the Red Court War. I welcome this, I mean, it's been happening all the way back sense Grave Peril.

I agree Eldan, I think Butcher confused the two in places, if not in name, then in location.
Aztecs are in Mexico. Not Mayans.

[Mauve Shirt]

Ok, I did do some wikipediaing. And the Mayan population was found on the Yucatan Peninsula as well as South America, so the location's not the problem.

[Erts]

Ok, I did do some wikipediaing. And the Mayan population was found on the Yucatan Peninsula as well as South America, so the location's not the problem.

I thought they were in Mexico... and here is a map. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mayamap.png) It seems that there influence extended up there, but not the total empire. However, on the Yucatan, you are correct. It's a moot point.


Back to my main point...

After Ghost Story, what does everyone think the next book? What direction will the series go?

I hope we see more of Odin and more mythological characters. I'm hoping for various mythologies... In fact, I like to hope Butcher does something like various heads of the pantheons sit around and play poker and talk about the good old days, when people believed in them, damnit! Comedic potential much?

[Mauve Shirt]

I read an idea that the Black Court of Vampires is going to show up to take the place of the Red and be the bigger bad for the remainder of the series until the Apocalyptic Trilogy. I'm not sure if that's my favorite idea, but we haven't heard from the Blampires in a while, and Mavra's been up to something for ages.
He could do some good mythology gags with the pantheons, but I don't see any of them becoming serious players. Odin made it in, but Jim hasn't been exactly keeping him secret for anyone with a smattering of knowledge of Norse Mythology (and since that's the popular nerdy pantheon these days, I'm sure much of his readership has some). Maybe more Norse players, but I don't think any of the others will show up for serious.

[Erts]

That's true, but we really haven't seen any Black Court besides Mavra. The Reds were built up story wise. I can see maybe one book, but not more.

I don't know, Bob had an off-hand comment in Grave Peril about old gods rising, I thought: FUTURE BOOK PLOT!

Oh, and I can't wait for Ferrovax (if that's how you spell it.) Great plot right there, and awesome cover picture.

[Lamech]

Mavora is pretty much the only member of the black court. She will of course be back. (Silly Kremler book wielding vampire accension is for kids.) Of course, Dresden can now shoot necromancy at them, so I doubt the black court as a whole will be a threat. Plus they were kind of silly in the first place, the only threat they've ever really been is their Reinfields, and land mines and crap. And just about every bad guy can pull off that trick.

Also when are they gonna clone mouse? I mean seriously you have a super-dog, why aren't you making more of them. Also fairies trading for kids?


I don't know, Bob had an off-hand comment in Grave Peril about old gods rising, I thought: FUTURE BOOK PLOT! Also Dresden's conversation with his dad? Can we make that more ominous? Dead people came back? And there is a big scary demon in the forest?

[Erts]

Also when are they gonna clone mouse? I mean seriously you have a super-dog, why aren't you making more of them. Also fairies trading for kids?


Well, he is magical, I'm pretty sure if cloning would just get you a big dog, nothing more.

What about faeries trading kids?

[Mauve Shirt]

I honestly hope it's not the Black Court, because I don't want this to turn into your standard Wizard vs. (stereotypical) Vampires setup.
This theory was based on the bit from Jim saying (I don't know where) that the Biggest Bad of the series was someone we'd heard of but not seen. So it's not Cowl, it's not Nicodemus, it's not Mavra any of the little bads from the individual books. So the person who wrote this thought of Drakul and/or Dracula. Other possibilities include Simon Petrovich, Titania, the Shapeshifter Guru, and the Jade Court.

[Eldan]

I really wanted to know more about the scary island Harry made friends with.

[The Glyphstone]

Aye, an exploration/explanation of the relationship between Demonreach and the Gatekeeper would be neat.

[Mauve Shirt]

I bet Demonreach is where Harry goes to live when he gets back to his body.

[SmartAlec]

It's implied that Demonreach is where he was born.

[Erts]

It's implied that Demonreach is where he was born.

Agreed. I think that if there is any real villian Big Bad, it's Cowl, or the man down under. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Satan) Wasn't hell implied to have helped Tessa in Small Favor?

To be honest, I don't think there is ONE Big Bad. I think that the Black Council is the Big Bad, but not with one person in Charge, just a bunch with varying motivations.

[Lyesmith]

I personally hope we see more of Faerie. The Summer, Winter and Wyld courts are pretty interesting, and the way they're portrayed (plus just the whole mechanics of the thing) is great, and we could do with more.

I got the impression Demonreach had something to do with Harry's past as well, but McCoy did mention such feelings were generally Prescience kicking in.

Which leads me to my next point - has Discworld been referenced yet? Magic users being able to see the future in odd little ways made me think immediately of the Witches & Wizards knowing when they'll die.

[Mauve Shirt]

It could be Satan, since he's been referenced but not seen.
I think Titania is going to have a big role in the apocalyptic trilogy.

[Lamech]

Well, he is magical, I'm pretty sure if cloning would just get you a big dog, nothing more.It is part of a bloodline thing. Clonign should work.


What about faeries trading kids?Oh right haven't they found sperm banks yet. They could make all the kids they want.

[Erts]

It is part of a bloodline thing. Clonign should work.
Oh right haven't they found sperm banks yet. They could make all the kids they want.

Well, here is an interview section. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJarGqXUuN8&feature=related)

To quote,


I doubt the DNA would survive a highly technical process of cloning. Whew, dodged a bullet there.

[Lyesmith]

Not to mention Cloning is pretty high-tech, and I'd imagine Faeries don't have a particularly good time with technology.

[SmartAlec]

There's references to Outsiders, and to Dresden being associated with them. If Demonreach being his birthplace was significant, perhaps the vast well of power in Demonreach is intended to keep shut whatever gates Outsiders would use to enter this world.

Hence the Gatekeeper's insistence that Dresden not mess with it.

[Eldan]

By the way, I have for some while suspected the Gatekeeper to be part of the Black Council, though my only point of evidence was the use of Outsiders by the Black Council and a vaguely bad feeling I have about him. What do others think?

[Erts]

By the way, I have for some while suspected the Gatekeeper to be part of the Black Council, though my only point of evidence was the use of Outsiders by the Black Council and a vaguely bad feeling I have about him. What do others think?

Hmmmmmmmm Maybe... But he is so awesome...

Course, why would he help Harry out at times?

[Eldan]

Evil Masterplan. He needs Harry for something.

Or perhaps Harry is just causing a lot of chaos, which is helpful?

[Erts]

Evil Masterplan. He needs Harry for something.

Or perhaps Harry is just causing a lot of chaos, which is helpful?

Xanatos Roulette much though... That's a huge thing.


What other good guys might be evil?
I want to see Justin in Ghost Story. I mean, this is the biggest opportunity for Jim to explore all the dead characters that this series has.

[Mauve Shirt]

I don't think the Gatekeeper is Black Council. I've thought Eb was BC, but Changes pretty much nixed that.
Cowl is the one who specializes in Outsiders, and we've heard enough of him to know he's not the Gatekeeper. I'm sure Cowl has something to do with Harry's birth and ability as an outsiderbane, Maggie was on the Black Council.

[The Glyphstone]

Besides, the Gatekeeper can time travel, or at least send messages/information to himself in past/future times. He refrains from doing so often because of paradoxes, but if he's Black Council, everyone is completely and utterly screwed anyways.

[Force]

Cowl keeps pinging me as "Justin DuMorne, round 2." I don't have the books right in front of me at the moment, but there was some doubt as to his death-- namely that Harry nailed him in a heckofalot of fire and there wasn't much left to identify. We all know what that means.

The Black Court... we haven't seen enough of them to be sure, I think. The Reds were shown from the very beginning to be an organized threat. The Blacks... you see Mavra and her "children." There's no sense of an organized threat; more like a few thugs who just want to survive.

Personally, I think the BBEG is going to be one of the dragons. It would be very nice to see Ferrovax in something other than his authentic roman guise.

[Erts]

I agree with the dragons.

I think the Black Court are like that, a bunch of independent powerful old vampires with a bunch of minor ones and Reinfields. They probably have alliances and such, but they are likely the smallest Court over all.

Any predictions on what the Jade Court is like? I don't know much about the mythology of Asian Vampires.

[Mauve Shirt]

Justin's been confirmed D-E-D dead by Jim several times. But then, so has Harry. :smalltongue: I don't think Cowl's identity is so easy, though.
Also WoJ, the dragons will play a big role in the Apocalyptic trilogy. I look forward to it.

As for the Jade Court, probably something like Jiang Shi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_vampire)

[Erts]

J
As for the Jade Court, probably something like Jiang Shi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_vampire)

From a quick glance, (http://www.vampire.com.hk/photos/800/Other/cvamp1.jpg) they seem to be more akin to zombies then vampires. I mean, not Twilight vampires, but I like my horrific creatures of the night to be sentient.

[devinkowalczyk]

The Dresden RPG talks about the jade court
something about feeding on the soul

other than that very normal
or zombie
i cant remember

[Mauve Shirt]

Feeding on the soul sounds like the Jiang Shi to me. Well, according to Wikipedia they "absorb life essence".

[Erts]

The Dresden RPG talks about the jade court
something about feeding on the soul

other than that very normal
or zombie
i cant remember

Is there a place where you can get the Beta pdf online? A fan mentioned it at a convention?

[Lamech]

Justin's been confirmed D-E-D dead by Jim several times.
Evil Dark wizard's always stay dead when they get blown to bits! Just look at how Cowl was obliterated by the Dark Hollow and... Erm... just look at how Kremmeler was killed in the early 1900's and no one heard from him... Yes well just look at Harry's father and how he... Or look at Harry will stay dead for a whole book...

Wouldn't be too surprised if Justin made a return from the land of the dead.


Not to mention Cloning is pretty high-tech, and I'd imagine Faeries don't have a particularly good time with technology. Sperm banks on the other hand can pull stuff off at much lower tech levels.

[Erts]

Sperm banks on the other hand can pull stuff off at much lower tech levels.

But less likely to be able to use magic, and less likely to be as powerful. Wait, maybe...

There most likely isn't a "magic gene", there are a bunch of different traits and such.
Would cryogenic freezing be high tech?

[lord_khaine]

Evil Dark wizard's always stay dead when they get blown to bits! Just look at how Cowl was obliterated by the Dark Hollow and... Erm... just look at how Kremmeler was killed in the early 1900's and no one heard from him... Yes well just look at Harry's father and how he... Or look at Harry will stay dead for a whole book...


Cowl was only presumed dead because he got hit by a massive backclash when he fumbled the spell.

Also, we dont know if kemler actualy died back there, or if he just tricked his opponents into beliving he was dead.

[Mauve Shirt]

Evil Dark wizard's always stay dead when they get blown to bits! Just look at how Cowl was obliterated by the Dark Hollow and... Erm... just look at how Kremmeler was killed in the early 1900's and no one heard from him... Yes well just look at Harry's father and how he... Or look at Harry will stay dead for a whole book...

There's a difference between Harry assuming Cowl is dead in his narration, and Jim saying Justin is dead. Dead Beat wasn't about Kemmler, it was about his book. No one has heard from Kemmler, personally, since the Wardens killed him and Justin took Bob. I predict Bob will have something to do with resurrecting Harry, and since Harry took Bob Justin won't have that to do.
I'd be disappointed if Justin didn't show up in Ghost Story though.
Justin being dead doesn't mean he won't show up, even if he does resurrect, it just means he's not Cowl. If I recall correctly, that's the question Jim was answering specifically when he said Justin was dead. Let me find what Jim said....

Also, Harry's father didn't come back to life, he appeared in a dream.

[Mauve Shirt]

From his forums (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?topic=19999.0):


Is Justin dead?

Yes Justin is dead, Jim stated it so in this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DbsSGiGCmw) interview starting at 0:25.

Interviewer: Justin is behind everything isn’t he?
Jim: Justin’s dead! He’s dead! He’s dead!
Interviewer: dead dead?
Jim: He’s dead!
Interviewer: Very dead?
Jim: D-E-D dead!
Interviewer: Are you ever going to change your answer dead?
Jim: He’s dead! (rolls eyes)

So he wasn't answering a question about Cowl, but still.

[Avilan the Grey]

Finally read Changes (I have had the book for a long time, but I have stopped myself from reading it because it will end too quickly. So it did, I started yesterday after work, finished it at lunch break today...).

First impression: Definitely a fitting name.

Other than that; to start backwards:

Ending
I think that the way Jim works, the one responsible for killing Harry will be either a very old "friend", or a very new one. I can't really see him using an enemy from the last 3 books or so, because it would be too easy for us (and Harry). I think we have to look back to the Party, or if not there, one of the other people he has crossed in say the first 3 books of the series. Also, of course we will have to think really hard about who would use such a method.

The Big Finale
I liked the way the Familicide curse worked. Instead of the Eldest being of the family being the one being optimal for the curse, it was the Youngest. That's a nice twist all in itself.

Susan
Having Susan sacrifice herself was rough for me, but it made sense.

Martin
Martin gambling like that was interesting. I never trusted him. I am not 100% sure of what his plan really was though; maybe he didn't know himself. He had started as traitor to the Fellowship, and remained such throughout, but at the same time made sure that he blew his cover right by the primed altar. Did he hope to cause the ruin of at least the King? Was he just too tired of it all to carry on and wanted a quick death and nothing more? I didn't get that, really.

Mouse
Mouse... a demon? What did Mouse mean when he "cheated"? He seemed to be on par, powerwise with Harry's Godmother, despite not being on his "home turf"!

The Big Demon
I am desperately trying to remember the name I know it as. I can' t find anything on Google for it since I can't remember that name. The description is more or less the same, man-sized or bigger walking bat-monster creature with a heartbeat you can hear from yards away if not more.

[BRC]

Concerning Mouse

I think the Fu Dog theory was more or less confirmed by Ancient Mai. I doubt Mouse is anything more than the doggie demigod he seems to be.

[Avilan the Grey]

Concerning Mouse

I think the Fu Dog theory was more or less confirmed by Ancient Mai. I doubt Mouse is anything more than the doggie demigod he seems to be.

Oh I know that already. My point is: "Cheat?"; how can he have access to all his power in that place?

[Mauve Shirt]

The big demon is called, in the book, an Ik'k'uox, Ick for short. :smalltongue:
You probably don't have to use spoilers, we haven't been spoiling Harry's demise for the last few pages.
One theory on Mouse is that a Fu Dog's source is whatever he's guarding, and he's guarding a wizard.

[Avilan the Grey]

The big demon is called, in the book, an Ik'k'uox, Ick for short. :smalltongue:
You probably don't have to use spoilers, we haven't been spoiling Harry's demise for the last few pages.
One theory on Mouse is that a Fu Dog's source is whatever he's guarding, and he's guarding a wizard.

(About Mouse) That makes a lot of sense.

About the batmonsterthingy... I think the other times I have heard of it, in other games and books etc, it is spelled with a lot of Qs. I recognized the beast because of the hearbeat, but I wonder if different civilizations in the Americas called it slightly different things?

[Erts]

The big demon is called, in the book, an Ik'k'uox, Ick for short. :smalltongue:


Anyone know where that thing comes from? What is it based off of? I just googled it and only came up with Changes related stuff.

[Avilan the Grey]

Anyone know where that thing comes from? What is it based off of? I just googled it and only came up with Changes related stuff.

Yeah. I was desperately trying to find it with a different name; as I said I recognize the description and the fact that you can hear it's heartbeat from a distance, but I have never heard this name for it before. The problem is that the last time I read anything about it was like 25 years ago, and the only thing I remember from then was that it was spelled with a lot of Qs.