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zephiros
2010-07-17, 02:01 PM
I was just wondering, I've seen quite a few people talking about monks with quite a bit of contempt. I'm playing a monk at the moment, and it's not my favourite character yet, but it's not bad. Is there any reason why people dislike monks in particular?

They have some quite good abilities, class abilities, random feats that benefit those abilities, if you use quarterstaff and unarmed you threaten Attacks of Opportunity on a two-square radius, and their progression bonuses are quite impressive.

I know they can't multiclass, but I never really do that anyway, so I was wondering if there was something in particular that people disliked.

Prodan
2010-07-17, 02:04 PM
All your questions answered. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)

balistafreak
2010-07-17, 02:09 PM
They have some quite good abilities, class abilities, random feats that benefit those abilities, if you use quarterstaff and unarmed you threaten Attacks of Opportunity on a two-square radius, and their progression bonuses are quite impressive.

This is what we all think at first. Monks have some EXTREMELY good stuff in their first 1-2 levels - bonus feats, unarmed strike, Wisdom to AC. Then it all goes to hell.

How so? While the Monk gets all sorts of "new and cool abilities", he gets them at a level where all the other classes have moved on to something new a long time ago, most notably Wizards, who can fall slowly, inflict SoDs, and teleport far earlier and more often than Monks.

Their abilities in a vacuum aren't "bad". It's just that when you get them, they're hilariously underwhelming. Same thing with their "progression" bonuses; similiar to the "trap" that Monkey Grip feats to wield larger weapons for larger dice are, the most efficent way to boost damage is not to roll a bigger die but to add +huge bonuses.

(Monks do have the dubious honor of being able to do everything they do naked, but let's face it: in most situations, if you're naked, you've already lost.)

Quarterstaves are not reach weapons. For that matter, I can't think of any monk weapons that are reach weapons. Sorry, mate.

... there's a lot more to it but I'll let others explain.

One thing to make clear: personal experience =!= numbers. There are solid benchmarks set at what other characters can do. If you're going to butt in with a comment that "my Monk worked out for me", good for you, but that doesn't make them any more powerful than they were. And remember that things that any player can do (creative thinking, tactics, even cross-class UMD) does not make the Monk class itself better.

We're not saying you can't have a good time with a Monk (although it might be a little harder if your DM is roll-oriented). We're only here to discuss the power of the class, period.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-17, 02:15 PM
The problems of the Monk are myriad. One, it's class features just aren't that good. Unarmed Strike damage is decent, but you can't enhance your fists which is crippling later on. Flurry imparts an attack bonus penalty on top of your mediocre BAB, so you'll miss much more often than you should, and you don't get extra damage like a Rogue in order to make your extra attacks really count. More importantly, you can only Flurry on a Full Attack, which means you can't use your other major scaling feature, the Fast Movement, at the same time.

The Wis to AC bonus is nice. The extra bonuses, not so much. Evasion's solid, and there are some decent choices for your feats in the first two levels. Beyond Monk 2, though, you really get very nearly nothing at all besides your unarmed damage.

The pseudo-slowfall is insultingly bad. Immunity to poison and disease is not a very big deal. The /day and /week limitations on your higher level features make them useless.

On top of all of that, the Monk suffers hideously from MAD - Multiple Ability Dependence. The Monk needs high Str, high Dex, high Con, high Wis, and really could use some decent Int. Even if you got ridiculously lucky with your Ability score rolls, they're not going to increase well and it will cost you a fortune in magic items to keep them all reasonable.

Prodan
2010-07-17, 02:15 PM
(Monks do have the dubious honor of being able to do everything they do naked, but let's face it: in most situations, if you're naked, you've already lost.)
Sorcerers with Eschew Materials do it better. And they have larger... Charisma.

Optimystik
2010-07-17, 02:16 PM
What I dislike about them is their lack of focus. They are built around mobility, but their damage suffers unless they are standing still. They are designed for melee, but are penalized for wearing the armor they need to survive in it. Their mobility in turn encourages ranged combat, yet their ranged weapons are laughable. They are built around weaponless fighting, but making their fists overcome damage reduction requires a deal more effort than doing the same for a weapon.

Then they have a bunch of seemingly random and incoherent abilities, presumably because the designers thought they would be "cool." What purpose are Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Empty Body, and Abundant Step meant to serve, and why does the monk have them? And some are just plain weak, like Wholeness of Body and Quivering Palm. (1/week?)

I love the idea behind them and think they are very cool thematically, but the execution was abysmal. They are very like Soulknives in that respect.

zephiros
2010-07-17, 02:16 PM
Yeah, no, I'm not trying to say it's worked out particularly well for me, we're only level one so far, I just didn't notice any glaring terribleness yet, and was wondering what I was missing on, thanks for the description.

Edit: Wow, several more people replied while I was writing this. :P

Alright thanks everybody. May see about changing that up then.

balistafreak
2010-07-17, 02:16 PM
Sorcerers with Eschew Materials do it better. And they have larger... Charisma.

Technically they can't Eschew away expensive material components... but touche. :smallamused:


Yeah, no, I'm not trying to say it's worked out particularly well for me, we're only level one so far, I just didn't notice any glaring terribleness yet, and was wondering what I was missing on, thanks for the description.

Aha!

1st level Monks are pretty good. Bonus feats, yum.
Same with 2nd level Monks. More bonus feats, yum.

But then the class falls apart.

A LOT of very good melee builds start with a 1-2 level dip of Monk. These builds are also completely playable from 1 to 20.

aivanther
2010-07-17, 02:17 PM
Monks can be fun, however when it comes to optimization, they just can't cut it. A haphazardly optimized most anything else can beat an optimized monk that isn't just a lvl 2 monk.

Obligatory reposting of my demotivational poster

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/aivanther/motivator9cdd8bd7ca1ac0da22c7f17606.jpg

Now as to what that picture really means. Monks really are like Mr Satan. They can trounce a commoner, they can even take some monsters out. Heck, they might get lucky on a BBEG. However, when it comes to the powers in the world, he's a small fry. When push comes to shove between OMGWTF powers, they just have to much MAD, Inconsistent ability synergy, and just not enough oomph to do much in a big smack down fight.

zephiros
2010-07-17, 02:21 PM
A LOT of very good melee builds start with a 1-2 level dip of Monk. These builds are also completely playable from 1 to 20.

Ah, in that case I may see about multiclassing. :P Thanks for the tip.

zephiros
2010-07-17, 02:24 PM
On the mention of MAD, we were having a bit of a discussion yesterday (just some people from our group) about Clerics suffering from that as well.

They need good Str to take part in melee (which is part of the class)
Good Con for the same reason
Good Wis and Cha, and many of their class skills have an Int base, whereas Dex also helps a bit in melee combat.

I was wondering about peoples' thoughts on that, and how it may be remedied? Either dedicating the cleric to melee/casting exclusivity? Beyond that I'm not really sure.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-17, 02:25 PM
If you're a level 1 Monk, take Monastic Training (Ardent) for your 2nd level Bonus Feat, and then take Ardent at 3rd and take Tashalatora for your 3rd level Feat. You'll be essentially what the Monk should have been to begin with.

Monastic Training is in Eberron Campaign Setting, but all it does is let you multiclass between Monk and any one other class of your choice - which is pretty useless, as you don't ever want to return to Monk. But it's a prerequisite for Tashalatora (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5) in Secrets of Sarlona, which will allow any one Psionic class that you have Monastic Training to progress your Monk features (I know it covers your unarmed strike damage; that's all that's really important).

The Ardent is a good Wisdom-based Psionicist from Complete Psionic, which matches the Monk well mechanically and flavorfully. If you don't have Complete Psionic, the Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) will do just fine, though.

Optimystik
2010-07-17, 02:27 PM
They need good Str to take part in melee (which is part of the class)

Nope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm)


Good Wis and Cha, and many of their class skills have an Int base, whereas Dex also helps a bit in melee combat.

Contrary to popular belief, Clerics don't need Charisma at all. Its primary purpose is turning undead, which is the weakest thing you can do with turning attempts.

The monk's MADness is not as easily overcome. If you dump Wisdom then your AC drops, and you can't wear armor to replace it without losing your other abilities like your speed. But Wisdom doesn't contribute to your to-hit or damage, so pumping it just makes you ineffective. Dropping Dexterity is even worse, and you also need Str and Con. You could dump Int but Monks actually have a decent skill list. That only leaves Charisma, and you can't get much mileage out of that.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-17, 02:29 PM
Higher Charisma does give you more uses of (whatever you're using Turn Undead to do), though.

Still, you don't need high Charisma, you just need decent Charisma. A Monk needs high Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. Putting a 14 in Charisma and grabbing a +2 or +4 item after they become quite cheap is enough.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-17, 02:29 PM
On the mention of MAD, we were having a bit of a discussion yesterday (just some people from our group) about Clerics suffering from that as well.

They need good Str to take part in melee (which is part of the class)
Good Con for the same reason
Good Wis and Cha, and many of their class skills have an Int base, whereas Dex also helps a bit in melee combat.

I was wondering about peoples' thoughts on that, and how it may be remedied? Either dedicating the cleric to melee/casting exclusivity? Beyond that I'm not really sure.

Everyone who is alive needs Con. Int, Cha, and Dex can all be dumped/set to 10 for a cleric. Str can run the gamut. Given 28 PB, a cleric should throw a 16 in Wis, a 16 in Con, an 8 in Cha, a 10 in Int, a 14 in Str, and an 8 in Dex. You could lower the Con a little bit to sure up the rest, but I'm a fan of my HPs. They then proceed to MAGIC away their lower scores, turning them into big numbers.

Sc00by
2010-07-17, 09:28 PM
On the subject of Monks; what does and doesn't stack from Monk to Swordsage (unarmed)? If a character was to be Monk 2/swordsage 10 how much monk stuff has an effective level of 12? (or 17 with a monks belt I guess)

And can you double up the WIS bonus to AC? As the unarmed Swordsage loses his light armour proficiency I'm guessing that his bonus must work when unarmed or else it's kinda pointless?

With Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse you can make the monk less MAD, though that's 2 feats... There isn't a damage version of insightful strike is there?

(just to post something that's almost relevant to the thread)

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-17, 09:33 PM
Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Learn it, love it. It the best way to learn about relative power levels.

Greenish
2010-07-17, 09:38 PM
On the subject of Monks; what does and doesn't stack from Monk to Swordsage (unarmed)? If a character was to be Monk 2/swordsage 10 how much monk stuff has an effective level of 12? (or 17 with a monks belt I guess)Unarmed swordsage gains monk's Unarmed Strike class feature, so it should stack.

And can you double up the WIS bonus to AC? As the unarmed Swordsage loses his light armour proficiency I'm guessing that his bonus must work when unarmed or else it's kinda pointless?By RAW, swordsage AC bonus only works in light armor, but RAI it's supposed to work without armor too, according to sage (and common sense).

With Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse you can make the monk less MAD, though that's 2 feats... There isn't a damage version of insightful strike is there?Not as a feat, but there are a few class features that add wis to damage. Soulbow and some OA class…

Prodan
2010-07-17, 09:39 PM
By RAW, swordsage AC bonus only works in light armor, but RAI it's supposed to work without armor too, according to sage (and common sense).

Errata corrects it iirc to work when unarmored.

kamikasei
2010-07-17, 09:40 PM
Yeah, no, I'm not trying to say it's worked out particularly well for me, we're only level one so far, I just didn't notice any glaring terribleness yet, and was wondering what I was missing on, thanks for the description.
Monks are, objectively, not a very good class. However, like warlocks (used to be), a lot of the scorn heaped on them here is because you get people new to optimization popping up to claim they're the BEST CLASS EVAR. It's perfectly possible to play a monk and do fine (unlike, say, a truenamer where you will in fact find yourself getting noticeably worse as you go unless you're putting in deliberate effort). It's just that the class seems to attract easily-refutable boasts of relative uberness like flies to, well, what's left of a monk after an optimization cage match.

Errata corrects it iirc to work when unarmored.
Are you sure this isn't... how to put it delicately... a lie? Or more charitably, are you mistaking something else for the infamously incomplete ToB errata (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_ToB.zip)?

Tyndmyr
2010-07-17, 09:47 PM
Learn the tiers, yup.

Monk makes a good dip for some builds...it's just really bad to use more than, oh, about two levels of it. Like fighter, but more so.

In fact, a monk 2/fighter 2 would probably own a monk 4.

Consider what a monk gets from levels 3 and 4. +2 sv vs enchantment, 1d8 attacks, slow fall(20 ft), and the ability to act as if his fists are magic weapons. Sure, they all sound good, but lets examine them in detail.

The fighter dip, by comparison, gets a juicy array of proficiencies, more hit points, and two feats. Total save boosts are equal, though the fighter dip gets you it all to fort, instead of spread around. Most importantly though are the feats.

+2 save vs enchantment. This is one of the most commonly dropped schools. Also, one of the easiest to get complete immunity to. More to the point, it's a save boost vs only one school of magic. This is vastly inferior to say, +2 will saves, which takes only one feat to pick up.

1d8 attacks. Meh. The fighter can easily pick up weapons that do more damage than 1d8. Clear fighter win, even more so if the fighter gets at least a mw weapon.

Fists count as magic attacks. Meh, the fighter can pick up a magic sword. His attacks now both count as magic attacks AND get the bonus from it being a magic sword.

Slow fall 20 feet. This is pretty much worthless.

If you're worried about the scaling, consider the fun of dipping barbarian afterward. Monk 2/Fighter 2/Barb 2 may not be an ideal build, but it'll trash a monk 6, it's all core, and around this time, you should be considering PrCs anyhow.

zephiros
2010-07-31, 11:50 AM
Having just found it, I was wondering about people's thoughts on the Drunken Master? Is monk the best way to get it? Is it worthwhile?

Boci
2010-07-31, 12:10 PM
Having just found it, I was wondering about people's thoughts on the Drunken Master? Is monk the best way to get it? Is it worthwhile?

Fun, but not very good powerwise. If homebrew is allowed there is at least 1 fix I recall.

tyckspoon
2010-07-31, 12:23 PM
^what he said. Drunken Master is one of the most entertaining classes around, but it's pretty weak; it inherits the Monk's problems and doesn't do a heck of a lot to fix them (there are some fun shenanigans you can get up to with improvised weaponry if your DM will go along with it, tho.)

Dr.Epic
2010-07-31, 12:36 PM
I know they can't multiclass, but I never really do that anyway, so I was wondering if there was something in particular that people disliked.

They can multiclass, it's just that they can't ever regain monk levels though I see what you mean. Two other points:

Aren't there other classes with that same restriction? I thought paladins had the same thing with multiclassing?

Some prestige classes let you continue to gain levels in monk.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 12:37 PM
Monks are okay in a group with one or two optimized PCs. In a group of all optimized, ya, monk falls on his face.

That being said, monk can still be good for filler

For instance: a Healbot Cleric can benefit from Wis to AC and Monk's speed boost (seeing as how combat isn't your Forte, dashing around, healing your buddies seems logical)

Likewise, a Toucher Cleric (I mean one who's primary damage is Inflict) can use Monk's Unarmed Strike to his advantage.

Even Paladin, who is MAD to the MAX can benefit (requires some tricky feat usage, mostly from Serenity and Ascetic (?) Knight). Sure, you won't have the AC of a normal Paly, but in exchange, you can remove the pesky need for CHA.

Sorcerer can benefit as well: Ascetic Mage. Removes WIS from the equation, you pump CHA, and voila, your AC jumps due to the CHA to AC and you still can cast. Plus, you are more mobile.

Here's one build that I used to use, using Monk as a "One Hit Wonder"

Race: Grey Elf
Class: Monk 5/Acolyte of the Fist 10/Initiate of Dragonic Secrets 9/Fist of the Forest 3/Drunken Master 3 (we went Epic. If you want 20th level, drop the last 2 PrCs and 4 off of IoDS)

In short, for 99% of all cases, Monk is a multiclasser's wet dream, but for Optimizers, Straight monk sucks like a Hoover

Dr.Epic
2010-07-31, 12:40 PM
You should probably take Vow of Poverty. Let's face it, the feat was designed for monks.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-31, 12:43 PM
You should probably take Vow of Poverty. Let's face it, the feat was designed for monks.

Yet, monks are the ones who take the hardest hit on potential power by losing access to magic gear.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 12:49 PM
98% of the time, if you are a monk, you need AC, so VoP is not a nice thing to have, unless you can qualify for Acolyte of Peace, which is a whole new Can of Wyrms.

Reynard
2010-07-31, 12:56 PM
It's Monk Thread time again!

http://www.carectomy.com/images/image/circular02.jpg

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 02:01 PM
It's Monk Thread time again!

http://www.carectomy.com/images/image/circular02.jpg

Yay, monk thread...

anyways, If you plan to use monk effectively, use the ACFs for Monk (PHBII is excellent for this) or use it as a dippable into something like Suel Archanamach (EWP and whatnot help here. Take the ACF from UA and drop the AC for DR. This way you can still wear armor, and are tougher than normal)

BobVosh
2010-07-31, 04:51 PM
I wonder how many threads are titled this asking this very question.

At least there isn't the weekly Sir G thread that results in about 2-6 bans anymore.

The biggest thing that makes monk weak is no power really helps the other one and the class just doesn't work at what it does.

Prime32
2010-07-31, 07:48 PM
The best monk is a monk 2/psychic warrior 18 or monk 2/ardent 18, with the Tashalatora feat.

Prodan
2010-07-31, 08:01 PM
What about Monk2/SS18?

Boci
2010-07-31, 08:02 PM
What about Monk2/SS18?

You mean monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-31, 08:04 PM
You mean monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10?

You mean necropolitan monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10.

Boci
2010-07-31, 08:07 PM
You mean necropolitan monk 2 / SS 8 / SSN 10.

No way. Free vampire template. All you have to do is claw (kick) your way out of the Second Hell.

ericgrau
2010-07-31, 08:20 PM
I was just wondering, I've seen quite a few people talking about monks with quite a bit of contempt. I'm playing a monk at the moment, and it's not my favourite character yet, but it's not bad. Is there any reason why people dislike monks in particular?

They have some quite good abilities, class abilities, random feats that benefit those abilities, if you use quarterstaff and unarmed you threaten Attacks of Opportunity on a two-square radius, and their progression bonuses are quite impressive.

I know they can't multiclass, but I never really do that anyway, so I was wondering if there was something in particular that people disliked.
Do a search as this is a common topic. Ya in a casual gaming group it is common to not have issues with things theoretical op people complain about online.

Splatbooks make a lot of their abilities obsolete, and others who don't know what they're doing outright ignore some of their abilities, try to do something else that they think they should do and suffer for it. Monks are also less effective against certain kinds of monsters. Other people focus on minor special abilities, but a minor benefit is never a drawback. This is a common fallacy. As long as you are using their abilities, you aren't in a powergamer heavy group, and your DM isn't running a theme campaign with a monster type you can't really use your abilities against, go have fun. Otherwise... do a search, this is an old and common topic.

Btw, quarterstaffs don't have reach.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 10:02 PM
I actually adore using Monk in ways that are creative, such as

Wiz 5/Cardamine or Kung-Fu Genius Monk 2/MotAO 2/Incantrix 7/Archmage 4

or

Paladin 5/Acsetic Knight Monk 2/Grey Guard 10/Purple Dragon Knight 2


or

Monk 2/Thug Fighter 3/Ur Priest 1/Contemplative 10/Mortal Hunter 4

dextercorvia
2010-07-31, 11:19 PM
I actually adore using Monk in ways that are creative, such as

Wiz 5/Cardamine or Kung-Fu Genius Monk 2/MotAO 2/Incantrix 7/Archmage 4

or

Paladin 5/Acsetic Knight Monk 2/Grey Guard 10/Purple Dragon Knight 2


or

Monk 2/Thug Fighter 3/Ur Priest 1/Contemplative 10/Mortal Hunter 4

The last build (at least) is illegal, contemplative requires 13 ranks of knowlede - religion. I fail to see what monk offers to the first build.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 11:26 PM
The last build (at least) is illegal, contemplative requires 13 ranks of knowlede - religion. I fail to see what monk offers to the first build.

okay...

and the monk offers INT to AC

dextercorvia
2010-07-31, 11:29 PM
okay...

and the monk offers INT to AC

So you are trading two caster levels -- always being a full spell level behind, for +5 AC? Wizards have tons of ways to not be hit, and if it is that important to you, you can always (after level 8 or so) buy a Monk's Belt.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 11:32 PM
So you are trading two caster levels -- always being a full spell level behind, for +5 AC? Wizards have tons of ways to not be hit, and if it is that important to you, you can always (after level 8 or so) buy a Monk's Belt.

or you could scrap one level for the INT to AC

and @18th level, you have 9th level spells...

dextercorvia
2010-07-31, 11:36 PM
or you could scrap one level for the INT to AC

and @18th level, you have 9th level spells...

Like I said, a Monk's belt +Carmendine gets you Int to AC without losing a caster level.

derfenrirwolv
2010-07-31, 11:48 PM
The problems with the monk in summation:

1) His abilities bring him up to the level of some random guy in armor with a sword while naked. The abilities of a fighter bring them far beyond the random guy with a sword as long as he's holding a sword.. which is almost always.

2) Their two key abilities are their mobility and their flurry of blows. Their flurry of blows requires that they not use their mobility. this is the same problem as all of the fighting classes.. itterative attacks were supposed to exponentially increase their damage output but you so rarely get to make a full attack that damage is barely linear as you level.

3) Lack of and expense of items. Getting a regular weapon enchanted costs

+1 2,000 gp
+2 8,000 gp
+3 18,000 gp
+4 32,000 gp

The amulet of might fists costs over 3 times as much AND uses the amulet slot, which would otherwise boost the monks ac or con.

6,000 gp (+1), 24,000 gp (+2), 54,000 gp (+3), 96,000 gp (+4), 150,000 gp (+5)


They also can't wear magic armor.

Urpriest
2010-08-01, 12:03 AM
They also can't wear magic armor.

To be fair, there aren't that many useful bracers abilities.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 12:06 AM
Bracers of Armor are rather expensive, though.

Origomar
2010-08-01, 12:13 AM
I wonder how many threads are titled this asking this very question.

At least there isn't the weekly Sir G thread that results in about 2-6 bans anymore.

The biggest thing that makes monk weak is no power really helps the other one and the class just doesn't work at what it does.


lol i have yet to see anyone say anything banworthy on this forum. (most polite forum ive ever been on)

and if you are to go swashbuckler 3 with the kung fu genius feat you become less MAD. just stack int and dex for AC, hit, and damage.

instead of you know stacking some wis for AC, some dex for AC also and strength for hit and damage.

EDIT: you can also just become monk/ class with full BAB and become insane shuriken thrower.

monk 11/somethingwithfullBAB 2/fighter7 (the variant where you get sneak attack instead of bonus feats)
get the weapon specialization thrown piercing(for shuriken) then TWF and you can make like 9 attacks from hiding with 4d6 added to each one lol.

not sure how good it would be, and once you dont get sneak attacks or things with DR your kind of, well...

Curmudgeon
2010-08-01, 01:19 AM
Like I said, a Monk's belt +Carmendine gets you Int to AC without losing a caster level.
... but at the expense of an item, a feat, and an extra hour of preparation every day.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-01, 06:46 AM
... but at the expense of an item, a feat, and an extra hour of preparation every day.

To play devil's advocate, said wizard could blow the feat on Kung-Fu Genius instead and save that one hour. Not the best plan, but it's better than the above. Honestly, if you want to gish it up with monk, go Abjurant Champion ASAP, boost INT, grab Greater Luminous Armor, Greater Mighty Wallop, and Greater Magic Weapon, allowing you to blow your gold you just saved on weapons and armor on wenches and ale the forth mentioned Monk's Belt instead.

dextercorvia
2010-08-01, 07:08 AM
... but at the expense of an item, a feat, and an extra hour of preparation every day.

He is already taking the feat. An item is much cheaper than a Non caster class level to a casting class, and you don't have to spend the hour to get Int to AC, just if you want the other benefits of the feat, which again, he was taking anyway.

I wasn't actually recommending that you do it, but he seemed very hung up on Int to AC, and had originally given up two caster levels for it. I was merely trying to show him that there were better options.

Defiant
2010-08-01, 12:05 PM
I never really understood why it is assumed creatures aren't proficient with their natural attacks...

The Glyphstone
2010-08-01, 12:11 PM
Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons. Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. Monks get an exception allowing their unarmed strikes to benefit from feats/spells as if they were natural weapons, but they still aren't actually natural weapons.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-01, 12:20 PM
Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons. Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. Monks get an exception allowing their unarmed strikes to benefit from feats/spells as if they were natural weapons, but they still aren't actually natural weapons.

Psst, Creatures aren't proficient with their own natural attacks.
Certain creature types are if they have Racial HD.

Druids despite being humanoids are told they are proficient because they normally aren't. Most Druid Players have 0 Racial HD (so they had to make an exception).

Curmudgeon
2010-08-01, 12:38 PM
I'm afraid you made three errors in three sentences.

Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons. 1) Starbuck_II covered this point.

Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.
2) The rules disagree with you. Here are some of the citations:
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).
Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) teat.

Monks get an exception allowing their unarmed strikes to benefit from feats/spells as if they were natural weapons, but they still aren't actually natural weapons.3) You've got it backward. For a Monk, unarmed strikes (natural weapons) are also treated as manufactured weapons. (Just think about it ─ who manufactures punches, kicks, and head butts?)

Starbuck_II
2010-08-01, 01:08 PM
(Just think about it ─ who manufactures punches, kicks, and head butts?)

Mothers? Baby making :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2010-08-01, 04:24 PM
Mothers? Baby making :smallbiggrin:
The word manufacture is derived from Latin words manus, meaning hand, and faceo, meaning make: to make by hand. So you're definitely talking about the wrong body parts.

OracleofWuffing
2010-08-01, 04:29 PM
I don't know, that might mean you're not making babies correctly. :smalltongue:

JaronK
2010-08-01, 05:23 PM
I never really understood why it is assumed creatures aren't proficient with their natural attacks...

Because the Humanoid type says you're proficient with all simple weapons, unless you have class levels, in which case you're proficient with whatever your classes say. And Monks don't have unarmed combat as a weapon.

Note that's different from every other creature type. Outsider, for example, gives proficiency with simple and martial weapons in addition to any class proficiencies. Thus, Outsider Monks are proficient.

JaronK

Frosty
2010-08-01, 05:27 PM
And Monks don't have unarmed combat as a weapon.This.

So umm...why aren't Monks Tier6?

Defiant
2010-08-01, 05:44 PM
Because the Humanoid type says you're proficient with all simple weapons, unless you have class levels, in which case you're proficient with whatever your classes say. And Monks don't have unarmed combat as a weapon.

Note that's different from every other creature type. Outsider, for example, gives proficiency with simple and martial weapons in addition to any class proficiencies. Thus, Outsider Monks are proficient.

JaronK

Ah, OK, that explains it. Still feels wrong that since it says "Unarmed strikes are considered simple weapons", it means that they classify as a simple weapon in terms of proficiencies - and not something that someone would automatically get, but is considered a light weapon for other mechanics.

Frosty
2010-08-01, 05:47 PM
Ah, OK, that explains it. Still feels wrong that since it says "Unarmed strikes are considered simple weapons", it means that they classify as a simple weapon in terms of proficiencies - and not something that someone would automatically get, but is considered a light weapon for other mechanics.
Nothing wrong with being a Simple AND Light weapon at the same time. Only problem is Monks, Druids, and Wizards don't know how to punch people.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-01, 05:48 PM
Ah, OK, that explains it. Still feels wrong that since it says "Unarmed strikes are considered simple weapons", it means that they classify as a simple weapon in terms of proficiencies - and not something that someone would automatically get, but is considered a light weapon for other mechanics.

Then, by that, unarmed strike is something most classes know how to do, but still provoke AoO without Improved Unarmed Strike? Oh man. But where does it say that US is a simple weapon? I don't recall!

I also wish to state that the monk's true lvl 20 class feature is removing the -4 penalty on their attacks XD

Prodan
2010-08-01, 05:49 PM
This.

So umm...why aren't Monks Tier6?

Because Commoners are worse.

Although Monks do seem to be on the same tier as Adepts... ouch.

Frosty
2010-08-01, 05:51 PM
Because Commoners are worse.

Although Monks do seem to be on the same tier as Adepts... ouch.
Yeah...ouch for the Adepts. Adepts get such treasures as Polymorph and Heal. Monks...don't.

Krazddndfreek
2010-08-01, 05:56 PM
Do a search as this is a common topic. Ya in a casual gaming group it is common to not have issues with things theoretical op people complain about online.

Splatbooks make a lot of their abilities obsolete, and others who don't know what they're doing outright ignore some of their abilities, try to do something else that they think they should do and suffer for it. Monks are also less effective against certain kinds of monsters. Other people focus on minor special abilities, but a minor benefit is never a drawback. This is a common fallacy. As long as you are using their abilities, you aren't in a powergamer heavy group, and your DM isn't running a theme campaign with a monster type you can't really use your abilities against, go have fun. Otherwise... do a search, this is an old and common topic.

Btw, quarterstaffs don't have reach.

Actually in even minimal optimization, monks can't compete without lots of spiffy magic items and even, then they still can't compete. I had a monk level 16 play alongside a rog6/ftr 6 and the fighter outdamaged my monk by at least 30 per round. This was both of our first game and the fighter rogue barely optimized as you can see, because he was afraid of multiclass penalties. My monk also happened to have 20 in all physical attributes and 18 in wis, not counting magic.

JaronK
2010-08-01, 05:59 PM
This.

So umm...why aren't Monks Tier6?

Since I assumed no one actually uses that rule as anything other than "heh, here's where the designers screwed up." Monks still have useful abilities, they're just weak. They're not as bad as Commoners or even CW Samurai. They do, for example, have Diplomacy as a class skill, all good saves, and Flurry. Those are good things.

JaronK

Prodan
2010-08-01, 06:00 PM
Hello, Jaron K.

Question: Are adepts in fact a Tier 5 class?

Bayar
2010-08-01, 06:02 PM
Yeah...ouch for the Adepts. Adepts get such treasures as Polymorph and Heal. Monks...don't.

Well, they get them, but they get them too late, earliest level being 12. By that time, the forms you myght polymorph into would be far less effective in dealing with equivalent level challenges. Plus, being limited to level 5 spells also takes out some neat spell combos, metamagic use is limited...

Prodan
2010-08-01, 06:04 PM
Use a wand of Polymorph before you get it as a spell.

Gametime
2010-08-01, 06:43 PM
Well, they get them, but they get them too late, earliest level being 12. By that time, the forms you myght polymorph into would be far less effective in dealing with equivalent level challenges. Plus, being limited to level 5 spells also takes out some neat spell combos, metamagic use is limited...

It's just in time to turn into a 12-headed hydra, which is still useful against the majority of challenges at that level.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-01, 06:45 PM
I'm afraid you made three errors in three sentences.


I stand corrected. This is why I should be making popcorn to eat for the thread, not trying to participate in the debate. Starbuck gave the answer I should have, anyways.

*popcorn*

Yuki Akuma
2010-08-01, 07:01 PM
Well, they get them, but they get them too late, earliest level being 12. By that time, the forms you myght polymorph into would be far less effective in dealing with equivalent level challenges. Plus, being limited to level 5 spells also takes out some neat spell combos, metamagic use is limited...

Adepts (and Magewrights) still get the dubious honour of being the best NPC classes by virtue of actually having spells.

Not the best spells, but they can PrC into monstrosities regardless.

JaronK
2010-08-01, 07:11 PM
Hello, Jaron K.

Question: Are adepts in fact a Tier 5 class?

I thought I listed them as T4. I'd have to go check... I haven't played one in quite a while. But they've got some VERY nice spells available to them which actually makes them more useful than many of the T5s in a surprising number of situations. Very few people have actually tried playing one, but it's hilarious to do so (no one ever expects it).

JaronK

Greenish
2010-08-01, 07:18 PM
Adepts (and Magewrights) still get the dubious honour of being the best NPC classes by virtue of actually having spells.Magewrights have a rather sad spell list. Good point about PrCs though...

I thought I listed them as T4. I'd have to go check... I haven't played one in quite a while. But they've got some VERY nice spells available to them which actually makes them more useful than many of the T5s in a surprising number of situations. Very few people have actually tried playing one, but it's hilarious to do so (no one ever expects it).

JaronKSo you're saying that Adepts are the Spanish Inquisition? :smalleek:

Fisticuffs
2010-08-01, 07:28 PM
Things that I don't hear people say enough in my opinion:

The best: very few PrC for monk don't advance it's unarmed strike and it's AC bonus.
The worst: at high levels the things that you picked up to advance your effective monk level for your unarmed strike (typically magic items) stop working since unarmed strike stop advancing past 20.:smallfrown:

Arctura42
2010-08-01, 10:44 PM
The monk's MADness is not as easily overcome. If you dump Wisdom then your AC drops, and you can't wear armor to replace it without losing your other abilities like your speed. But Wisdom doesn't contribute to your to-hit or damage, so pumping it just makes you ineffective. Dropping Dexterity is even worse, and you also need Str and Con. You could dump Int but Monks actually have a decent skill list. That only leaves Charisma, and you can't get much mileage out of that.

So take Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds I think?). Now WIS DOES contribute to your to-hit. Problem solved. WIS for defense and offense, a bit of STR for some damage, a bit of CON for survivability, and you can almost ignore DEX and CHA, leaving an ok-ish score for INT. I figure, if you're human, and you take the Nymph's Kiss feat from the previous source, that's an extra 2 skill points every level, plus 4, plus your INT modifier. He's only got 13 class skills, and you've got a base of 6. We don't need too much more. So figure an INT of 12 or 14 at most. Get your WIS up high, get CON up there, and leave DEX, STR, and especially CHA alone. With a standard 32 point buy:

STR 12 (cost: 4 points)
DEX 10 (cost: 2 points)
CON 16 (cost: 10 points)
INT 14 (cost: 6 points)
WIS 16 (cost: 10 points)
CHA 8 (no cost)

And then just shift it around as you see fit. With this initial setup, you start out with a +3 to hit, so +1/+1 on your initial Flurry of Blows, +3 to AC, a good starting DC on your stunning fist, and 8 skill points per level, which you could definitely do without. Keep the WIS and CON up, get INT to whatever level you believe comfortable, and you've gone from having 1 dump stat to having almost 3. If you want to be able to qualify for a bunch of feats, move things around a bit - those last 2 points are expensive in WIS and CON, costing 2 points apiece, and can easily boost STR or DEX to qualify you for the feats - as a matter of fact, STR 13 and DEX 13 is attainable by setting CON or WIS down to 14, so you're pretty much ok. I see no MADness here, just need to have a nice database to work with for a few weeks. Now if you'll excuse me, I haven't left my room in a while.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 10:51 PM
A whole +3 to hit for a whopping 1d6+1 damage. I am impressed beyond belief.

tyckspoon
2010-08-01, 10:58 PM
STR 12 (cost: 4 points)
DEX 10 (cost: 2 points)
CON 16 (cost: 10 points)
INT 14 (cost: 6 points)
WIS 16 (cost: 10 points)
CHA 8 (no cost)

And then just shift it around as you see fit. With this initial setup, you start out with a +3 to hit, so +1/+1 on your initial Flurry of Blows, +3 to AC, a good starting DC on your stunning fist, and 8 skill points per level, which you could definitely do without. Keep the WIS and CON up, get INT to whatever level you believe comfortable, and you've gone from having 1 dump stat to having almost 3. If you want to be able to qualify for a bunch of feats, move things around a bit - those last 2 points are expensive in WIS and CON, costing 2 points apiece, and can easily boost STR or DEX to qualify you for the feats - as a matter of fact, STR 13 and DEX 13 is attainable by setting CON or WIS down to 14, so you're pretty much ok. I see no MADness here, just need to have a nice database to work with for a few weeks. Now if you'll excuse me, I haven't left my room in a while.

And, comparatively, a bog-standard Fighter 1, using 16 Str/12 Dex/16 Con/14 Int (in fairness the Fighter doesn't need the Int and could cheaply put his Dex to 14 instead, which would probably be more useful, but comparing across same stat choices):

+4 to Hit, 1d8+3 damage (using a Longsword; a two-handed weapon just completely blows away the Monk on damage dice alone.) 16 AC (Chainmail, +1 Dex mod; 18 if he pairs his one-handed weapon with a heavy shield.) Better than the Monk in every possible combat number. This is why the Monk is poor- even when you do the work to reduce his deficiencies, he's still below standard. And there's *nothing* in the game more standard than a longsword-and-shield Fighter.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 10:59 PM
Monk has better saves. That's about it.

Defiant
2010-08-01, 11:31 PM
Monk has better saves. That's about it.

Monk also has a lot of colourful unique and special abilities.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 11:32 PM
And he is welcome to them.

Philistine
2010-08-02, 12:15 AM
Monk also has a lot of colourful unique and special abilities.
... taking "unique," in this instance, to mean "inferior versions of low-level spells."

Prodan
2010-08-02, 12:17 AM
And special to mean... well, special.

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-02, 12:42 AM
It is fascinating to see all the same "monk is weak" fallacies repeated again and again.

I think it is time for an update of my monk guide...:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Reynard
2010-08-02, 12:43 AM
Oh gods. Now, can we end this early this time, and not start another goddamn pointless and circular argument?

Mystic Muse
2010-08-02, 12:57 AM
Oh gods. Now, can we end this early this time, and not start another goddamn pointless and circular argument?

How about I link to the last one?:smallbiggrin:

Okay, okay, I won't.

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-02, 01:05 AM
Moreover, I am going to suggest the following for my new guide:

Everyone thinking the monk is weak can post here exacltly one thing he/she believes a monk should be able to do at what non-epic level and with what rules environment (core or everything goes). And also, of course, also give a reason why a monk should be able to do that (for instance, because a class with a comparable role can fulfill that task easily in your view).

So, everyone can post one such challenge. Only Prodan may ask for three such challenges...since I feel he is speaks for more than just one poster..:smallbiggrin:

Then I'll try to show how this can be done.

- Giacomo

Mystic Muse
2010-08-02, 01:19 AM
How about we take this to your own thread rather than hijacking somebody else's?

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-02, 01:46 AM
How about we take this to your own thread rather than hijacking somebody else's?

How can you posting what you feel a monk should bad able to do in what circumstances hijack this thread? It is exactly what the OP has asked for.

I'll then answer all these posts in a different thread (my new guide).

- Giacomo

Mystic Muse
2010-08-02, 01:50 AM
How can you posting what you feel a monk should bad able to do in what circumstances hijack this thread? It is exactly what the OP has asked for.

I'll then answer all these posts in a different thread (my new guide).

- Giacomo

If you're going to answer all the posts in a different thread anyway shouldn't you just make a different thread?

I mainly suggest moving it do a different one because it's more likely to get people to respond when they know it's a Sir Giacomo Monk thread.

Killer Angel
2010-08-02, 02:19 AM
It is fascinating to see all the same "monk is weak" fallacies repeated again and again.


Some "fallacies" are simply the truth.
Example: he monk has a low BaB, and flurry lowers all his to hit rolls. All the things you can do to work around this, are resouces (money, feats, etc.) spent to compensate a starting gap... resources that another class can spend to keep you behind on that field.



I mainly suggest moving it do a different one because it's more likely to get people to respond when they know it's a Sir Giacomo Monk thread.

It also increment the volume of Gliphstone's popcorn.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-02, 05:32 AM
I'm always amused by how Giomoco showcases cross-class UMD as a strong point of the monk.

Bayar
2010-08-02, 06:19 AM
I'm always amused by how Giomoco showcases cross-class UMD as a strong point of the monk.

Dont forget purchesable partially charged wands.

Boci
2010-08-02, 06:32 AM
Moreover, I am going to suggest the following for my new guide:

Everyone thinking the monk is weak can post here exacltly one thing he/she believes a monk should be able to do at what non-epic level and with what rules environment (core or everything goes).

What the monk should be able to do? Swordsage.
1. Able to move their speed and attack each round without spending a feat on travel devotion.
2. Able to make a variety of different attack, with a system that replicates learning martial art well. (I do MMA, and the drills we do can best be represented in game by maneuvers IMO). Oh and without exspending feats, gp or skillpoints.
3. Able to function as a melee class with 3/4 BAB.

Those are the top three things I can think of write now.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-02, 07:50 AM
Moreover, I am going to suggest the following for my new guide:

Everyone thinking the monk is weak can post here exacltly one thing he/she believes a monk should be able to do at what non-epic level and with what rules environment (core or everything goes). And also, of course, also give a reason why a monk should be able to do that (for instance, because a class with a comparable role can fulfill that task easily in your view).

So, everyone can post one such challenge. Only Prodan may ask for three such challenges...since I feel he is speaks for more than just one poster..:smallbiggrin:

Then I'll try to show how this can be done.

- Giacomo

There's only one thing I ever wanted from a Monk.
They should be able to hold their own in comparison to other classes, such as the Barbarian, Rogue or Bard and so on, (which are themselves not exactly high-tier classes). Specifically with the concept of the Tier system in mind, which is to say -

NOT tier 5, as in "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well"
but rather at least tier 4, "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise"
up to tier 3, "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate"

WITHOUT requiring complex builds, heavy magical reliance, or any real level of op-fu.

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-02, 08:06 AM
I'm always amused by how Giomoco showcases cross-class UMD as a strong point of the monk.

Could you please quote where I said that?
Please. Do not spread views I never maintained as if they were my opinion.

Also, stop mocking my posting name, please.
Thank you.

- Giacomo

Edit: Thanks, Boci and Tiki Snakes for your entries. I'll answer them in a new monk guide.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-02, 08:15 AM
Could you please quote where I said that?
Please. Do not spread views I never maintained as if they were my opinion.

Also, stop mocking my posting name, please.
Thank you.

- Giacomo




1. Key Insights on Giamonk strategy (and: what the Joker would say….)


1) “Where does he get those wonderful toys?” – The Joker
Be prepared for a harsh truth: Magic is cheap in core 3.5. And the “Giamonk” (courtesy Kurald Galain) intends to make full use of it. In that way, he is quite close to the classic gish…

- Use Magic Device (UMD), either cross-class or class. It does not really matter, since the greatest bargains, the wands simulating ALL 1-4 spell levels are safely usable with just a UMD score of +19. And even one rank of UMD and total bonus of +0 will allow you to eventually activate a wand…only a “1” rolled without +19 UMD will mean stopping to use that item for the day, but you could carry several for the same effect, lowering your risk greatly. Wands are the cheapest way for non-casters to obtain non-pc buffs. Based on the usual casting and spell levels of arcane and divine spells, level 1 spells, it is 15 gp per use, for level 2 spells 90 gp, for level 3 spells 225 gp and for level 4 spells 420 gp.
(Some quote-trimming involved)

Whether or not you have actually espoused UMD as a strength of the Monk class, on many occaisions that is the impression you have given, G. :smallsmile:

Prodan
2010-08-02, 08:17 AM
1. Monk should be able to use their save or die (Quivering Palm) more than once per week so as to not render it inferior to pretty much any other save or die ability or spell in the game.

2. Monk should be able to Dimension Door more than once per day. The Horizon Walker can get Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds, at a caster level of his character level, at character level 11 at the earliest, one round before the monk gets his.

3. The slow fall ability only works when near a wall. This really should work any time he is falling so as to not be inferior to Feather Fall.

Killer Angel
2010-08-02, 08:20 AM
Could you please quote where I said that?
Please. Do not spread views I never maintained as if they were my opinion.


:smallconfused:
To be fair, in your guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704), just after the intro, we have the basic of Monkery, and your FIRST point, develops UMD and Npc casters.
It's difficult don't consider UMD one of the basic strenght of your monks.

Edit: I hate you, Tiki Ninja!

Prodan
2010-08-02, 08:29 AM
And it is easily the most entertaining, memorable, and well thought out part.

Frog Dragon
2010-08-02, 08:38 AM
Maybe now we can have the Giamonk sample build. :smallwink:

Prodan
2010-08-02, 08:40 AM
Didn't he put that in the guide?

Frog Dragon
2010-08-02, 08:43 AM
Didn't notice that then. Reading.

Prodan
2010-08-02, 08:47 AM
How can you posting what you feel a monk should bad able to do in what circumstances hijack this thread? It is exactly what the OP has asked for.


I'm always amused by how Giomoco showcases cross-class UMD as a strong point of the monk.



It's difficult don't consider UMD one of the basic strenght of your monks.

Guys? Guys? Please remember the spellcheck on firefox won't save you if you use the wrong word spelled correclty.

Eldan
2010-08-02, 08:55 AM
A challenge?

Okay, a simple one.

A core monk with moderate point buy (say, 28 points), should be reliably able to hit a melee monster with a challenge rating equal to his level, across all levels. Let's make this levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20. By reliably I mean, let's say... on a roll of 6+ on a d20.

jseah
2010-08-02, 08:55 AM
Guys? Guys? Please remember the spellcheck on firefox won't save you if you use the wrong word spelled correclty.
XD


Anyway, does Giacomo think that monks are mobility focused strikers or full attacking flurrying bruisers? I can't quite figure it out from the "guide".

IMO, monks need to be able to get where they need to go and do what they need to do. Like being able to fully ignore "simple" stuff like walls of force/stone.

Prodan
2010-08-02, 09:22 AM
IMO, monks need to be able to get where they need to go and do what they need to do. Like being able to fully ignore "simple" stuff like walls of force/stone.

Haven't you heard? Rods of Cancellation are not used up when negating Walls of Force.


A challenge?

Okay, a simple one.

A core monk with moderate point buy (say, 28 points), should be reliably able to hit a melee monster with a challenge rating equal to his level, across all levels. Let's make this levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20. By reliably I mean, let's say... on a roll of 6+ on a d20.

Do you want to add on any conditions such as not being hit overly often, or having a decent amount of HP?

Killer Angel
2010-08-02, 09:49 AM
I love the irony of how much Prodan's sig is perfectly fitted for this thread... :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2010-08-02, 10:09 AM
So, everyone can post one such challenge.
A Monk should be able to contribute to a party without having to rely heavily on items and wealth.

Popertop
2010-08-02, 10:11 AM
How can you posting what you feel a monk should bad able to do in what circumstances hijack this thread? It is exactly what the OP has asked for.

I'll then answer all these posts in a different thread (my new guide).

- Giacomo

Really?

I thought he meant to do that,
it was kinda funny to me.

Oh, a challenge, right.

The monk should MAKE SENSE.
I mean, seriously, it's like they tried to get him to do ten different things at once.
They gave him extra attacks on a full attack.
So he should full attack?
Enhanced mobility.
So he should run around.
Quasi-magical abilities.
To ... I don't know appear semi-mystical?
He gets Dimension door, 1/day? No more?
Doesn't scale with your level just 1/day, and we're done with abundant step.
And then, we pretty much don't get a capstone ability. Yeah.
So I'd like for the monk to make more sense, basically, and not suck at everything.

Flickerdart
2010-08-02, 10:12 AM
Really?

I thought he meant to do that,
it was kinda funny to me.
Well the question is "what should a monk be able to do", not "what should a monk be able to do well". A Monk can already do a ton of things poorly. It's just that poorly is the only way it can do them.

Prodan
2010-08-02, 10:18 AM
Really?

I thought he meant to do that
In that case, I withdraw my objections.

Popertop
2010-08-02, 10:21 AM
Well the question is "what should a monk be able to do", not "what should a monk be able to do well". A Monk can already do a ton of things poorly. It's just that poorly is the only way it can do them.

I thought it was funny, since he typed "bad able to do"

which is what the monk does

you know

he does things






badly

Stompy
2010-08-02, 10:38 AM
Everyone thinking the monk is weak can post here exacltly one thing he/she believes a monk should be able to do at what non-epic level and with what rules environment (core or everything goes). And also, of course, also give a reason why a monk should be able to do that (for instance, because a class with a comparable role can fulfill that task easily in your view). -Giacomo

Problem: From my impressions on a monk, it is a weaker, more "tech-y", melee fighting type, with some skill (stealth and perception mostly) tech and a bunch of random immunities and stuffs thrown in for fun. Correct me if I am wrong, but the monk is a melee fighting defense type with stealth and perception.

I'm having a hard time why, from a party contribution standpoint, I shouldn't be a rogue or ranger instead of this class, when rogue can do that and has a much better damage output (usually, when flanking with allies) and much more skills, and the ranger can do that, has full BAB, more skills, except he does ranged combat, which is much better in my eyes then melee.

Enviroment: Core only

Level: 6

Reason: I want to know how a monk contributes to a party, and if it can effectively contribute more over these two classes.

Prodan
2010-08-02, 10:40 AM
I'm having a hard time why I shouldn't be a rogue or ranger instead of this class

Rogues don't get to sneak attack a lot of enemies, and rangers... don't get good saves?

Doug Lampert
2010-08-02, 10:40 AM
Higher Charisma does give you more uses of (whatever you're using Turn Undead to do), though.

Nightsticks if you GM is insane enough to let them in as per the book.

But even if core only. 16 Cha gives the cleric 6 turns a day.
So does 8 Cha and one core feat, and the feat does stack, so if you need more your can take it again.

Which is worth more, 10 point buy points or one feat?

If you seriously think it's the Feat then you must consider fighters the most overpowered class in the entire game.

Terazul
2010-08-02, 11:04 AM
Which is worth more, 10 point buy points or one feat?

If you seriously think it's the Feat then you must consider fighters the most overpowered class in the entire game.

Kinda gotta disagree here, given you can make up the point buy in silly little magic trinkets; you only get 7 feats ever. I'd rather go spend them on more things to use TU with in the first place.

Gametime
2010-08-02, 11:07 AM
You know, the last thread like this ended in a challenge between Doc Roc and Giacomo to test their views in the arena.

That challenge has still not occurred, due to various delays.

I propose we don't engage in this discussion until that arena match has been concluded. Not because I think empirical evidence for either side will stop people from continuing to spout whatever tired old arguments they feel best represents the reality they choose to see, but because I really really really want to see this fight happen and don't want Gia getting distracted by a 40 page monstrosity of a thread.

Please? :smallbiggrin:

Lans
2010-08-02, 11:16 AM
The monk's MADness is not as easily overcome. If you dump Wisdom then your AC drops, and you can't wear armor to replace it without losing your other abilities like your speed. But Wisdom doesn't contribute to your to-hit or damage, so pumping it just makes you ineffective. Dropping Dexterity is even worse, and you also need Str and Con. You could dump Int but Monks actually have a decent skill list. That only leaves Charisma, and you can't get much mileage out of that.

Actually you can go through enough ACFs that wisdom isn't really needed, and you can wear armor because you traded away everything that is stopped by wearing armor. Which I think is Fast movement, flurry, and the AC bonus.

Well you don't trade the AC bonus, it just becomes pointless due to having a 6 wisdom.

I think the build was 1-2 fighter or other armor using class, 18-19monk

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-02, 12:30 PM
(Some quote-trimming involved)

Whether or not you have actually espoused UMD as a strength of the Monk class, on many occaisions that is the impression you have given, G. :smallsmile:

The quote you provided (quote trimming or not) has nothing to do with what you maintained. If you get the impression that I say UMD is a strength of the monk class, I really cannot help you.

What I DO maintain, though, is that UMD is very useful for the monk trying to get spells that synergise with his class abilities. But it is very useful for everyone else (different spells, maybe, but no advantage of the monk in general here).

Meanwhile:
Thanks for all the entries. I'll quote and answer them in the new monk guide that I plan. Before I do a new monk guide, though, I'll focus my currently limited time on the duel against Doc Roc - do not worry.

- Giacomo

PS: Prodan, your requests of what the monk should do is a request for houseruling. This is not what I meant. (or I could simply maintain that the wizard sucks because he only has one familiar, and not five).
Just post some things that you believe a certain class comparable to the role of the monk can do at level x with y resources and that you doubt a monk can do that as well. Examples of what I mean can be found above from various posters.

Math_Mage
2010-08-02, 12:54 PM
Re: use of UMD as a class skill...
Well, consider the level 6 build in your guide, which you're so very proud of and used in playtesting.

ITEMS (7,760gp, 30#weight): Masterwork tools for all above skills (500/10), Masterwork spiked chain (325/10), bead of bless 1/day (600/-), Masterwork light crossbow (335/4), 2 Pearls of Power level 1 (2,000/-), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000/1), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000/5).
WAND BUDGET: 4,950 (cumulative with prvs levels)

At this point, nearly half your wealth is tied up in UMD items that you can only activate half the time. So yes, I'd say that UMD use is considered a core feature of your monk.

Tangential: were you planning on loaning the Rod of Extend to the caster? Because that doesn't work on wands. Between that and the 2,000 on pearls of power, you're pretty clearly spending more money making the wizard effective than making the monk effective. You could put just about any class in place of the monk and have the build function as or more effectively, since the build's strength is determined by WBL and accompanying spellcasters, not the monk chassis.

JaronK
2010-08-02, 01:27 PM
What Monks would have to do to be considered a moderately powerful class:

Without having specific gear, and when using a 0 LA normal race contribute meaningfully to a reasonable assortment of CR 12 monsters at level 10 (in other words, contribute to the hard fights). Note that I'm not saying "without gear at all." I'm also not saying a stupid race... I just don't want this to be optimized based on race instead of class. I just find that in most games, the gear you have isn't completely customizable. It's stuff you find, with a few things you're able to buy... you can't just leave mid way through saving the world to stop off at ye old magic mart and purchase every custom item you want, especially when we're talking about items that might not last very long (and thus require many trips).

I think that's a very reasonable base line. Right now though a Monk has to really work hard just to be able to hurt things his level. Can it be done? Sure. But when I made a Monk designed to deal a great deal of damage (1000+ per round) the only way to do it was to ignore pretty much everything about the Monk itself except Flurry and Unarmed Strikes and cheese up the races (Feral Half Minotaur Water Orc!) and go with a few powerful feats (Shock Trooper, Leap Attack). It worked, but that's not really showing how Monks behave in normal play.

The problems with the Giacomo Monk are obvious... they rely on having constant access to any gear you want, and really have nothing to do with the Monk itself (nearly half the wealth is in UMD items), plus they seem to require a huge charge up time before battle (a few rounds trying to get your buffs up, which may or may not work). They're usually not ready to fight until the battle is over, even if you could get that gear. But as such, they don't look usable in any game I've ever been in.

And as noted by the poster above, they're clearly a raging Class X fallacy. It boils down to "cross class UMD, buy custom wands from your DM, and get items to power up your party Wizard so he can better buff you." But that has nothing to do with the Monk... I could use that exact strategy for any other class and likely be just as good. It's amazing how effective a Commoner can be when PAO turns him into a Hydra and then a Greater Magic Weapon buffs his heads.

JaronK

Doug Lampert
2010-08-02, 02:57 PM
Kinda gotta disagree here, given you can make up the point buy in silly little magic trinkets; you only get 7 feats ever. I'd rather go spend them on more things to use TU with in the first place.

No, you CAN'T make up for point buy with silly little magic trinkets. You STAY BEHIND the guy who DIDN'T waste 10 point buy points because he ALSO has those trinkets. In fact, the trinkets are part of the character's expected power level.

A cleric that starts with 10 points tied up duplicating 1 feat will FOREVER be gimped compared to one who spent those points on Con and Wisdom where they actually help his build.

25 points, your build is something like 8, 8, 13, 8, 16, 16
As opposed to 8, 11, 14, 8, 18, 8

Notice higher Con and +2 to your casting stat, those differences are FOREVER, because every cleric uses items and spells to boost both of those.

But you saved a feat!

32 points, your build is something like 8, 8, 14, 8, 18, 16
As opposed to 14, 12, 14, 8, 18, 8

Even in plate the second build has +2 AC, and if you waste 36,000 GP to boost dex the other guy can use a spell and stay ahead. You can use +6 to strength AND a +4 inherent, and he stays even by casting Bull's Strength.

Except then he's put his inherent into Wis and is way ahead.

Prodan
2010-08-02, 05:12 PM
PS: Prodan, your requests of what the monk should do is a request for houseruling. This is not what I meant. (or I could simply maintain that the wizard sucks because he only has one familiar, and not five).
Just post some things that you believe a certain class comparable to the role of the monk can do at level x with y resources and that you doubt a monk can do that as well. Examples of what I mean can be found above from various posters.

Then address them.

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-02, 06:45 PM
Re: use of UMD as a class skill...
Well, consider the level 6 build in your guide, which you're so very proud of and used in playtesting.

At this point, nearly half your wealth is tied up in UMD items that you can only activate half the time. So yes, I'd say that UMD use is considered a core feature of your monk.

Do you know what the wbl for level 6 is? 4,950 gp at that level is not "nearly half your wealth", it is 38%, to be precise. Sounds closer to a third than half for me.
More importantly, you are referring to ONE example build, in ONE sub-section of the total guide that I put forward in detail.
It is entirely possible to apply the whole joker monk idea to just using permanent items (and some enlarge potions), as obvious from the guide which mentions several ways to get good buffing spells.
And yes, I put in a lot of effort into that guide. Which makes me somewhat...reluctant :smallamused: to see people criticising it for the wrong reasons, and then even refusing to accept when they have been proven wrong time and again.
This is not to say that I am not open for constructive criticism and ideas to improve the guide. Unfortunately, I have hardly received any.


Tangential: were you planning on loaning the Rod of Extend to the caster? Because that doesn't work on wands. Between that and the 2,000 on pearls of power, you're pretty clearly spending more money making the wizard effective than making the monk effective. You could put just about any class in place of the monk and have the build function as or more effectively, since the build's strength is determined by WBL and accompanying spellcasters, not the monk chassis.

I learned by now that many as DMs would not allow rods of metamagic being applied to wands (like Saph, for instance) and I'd tend to follow that interpretation by now. The rod of extend is still very useful, though, for buffing by fellow pcs and can help everyone in the group, too. That, and also the pearl of power.
Is always good to have in the group and can be used by mid-level to guarantee long-lasting mage armours for the monk which is cheaper for a while than the bracers of AC.

- Giacomo

Caphi
2010-08-02, 06:47 PM
I learned by now that many as DMs would not allow rods of metamagic being applied to wands (like Saph, for instance) and I'd tend to follow that interpretation by now. The rod of extend is still very useful, though, for buffing by fellow pcs and can help everyone in the group, too. That, and also the pearl of power.
Is always good to have in the group and can be used by mid-level to guarantee long-lasting mage armours for the monk which is cheaper for a while than the bracers of AC.

- Giacomo

This sounds less like a monk and more like a 30-50% WBL boost for the team casters.

Prodan
2010-08-02, 06:48 PM
Do you know what the wbl for level 6 is? 4,950 gp at that level is not "nearly half your wealth", it is 38%, to be precise. Sounds closer to a third than half for me.
You won the battle and lost the war.

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-02, 06:50 PM
This sounds less like a monk and more like a 30-50% WBL boost for the team casters.

Well, usually in teamplay I'd also be inclined to expect more buffs are given for free between pcs. But this is not what many at the time the monk guide was written maintained happens in their groups and gameing experience.
Therefore, my idea to find more ways for non-casters to get buffs from their items (for instance, UMD) and items that support casters do the buffs.

- Giacomo

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 06:51 PM
Hmmm...we may be on to something here. Almost any class, barring Truenamer/CW Samurai, starts at a higher gear-free baseline than the Monk does in terms of party contribution. Therefore, the Monk contributes more than any other class in terms of spending his WBL on items for the party casters, since his potential competitors would instead buy stuff for themselves...Is the new 4-person party a Wizard and 3 Monks, creating a Wizard with 4x his normal WBL?:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

tyckspoon
2010-08-02, 06:53 PM
This sounds less like a monk and more like a 30-50% WBL boost for the team casters.

The Pearls of Power, at least, are a sound personal investment. Count it out this way: You want to get an Armor bonus to AC. You're going to pay for it however you get it. You can buy Bracers of Armor +4 for 16,000 GP. Or you can buy your Wizard a 1st level Pearl of Power for 1,000 GP, and have him cast Mage Armor on you along with his own instance of the spell by using that Pearl. Similar math applies to buying a 3rd level Pearl so you can get Greater Magic Weapon (+3 Weapon: 18,000. Pearl: 9,000. +2 equivalent weapon +3 GMW, +4 total equivalent: would be 32,000. Effective wealth gain: Substantial.)

Prodan
2010-08-02, 06:55 PM
Observation: Tactic predicated on the assumption that there will be someone who can cast Mage Armor in the party.

Krazddndfreek
2010-08-02, 06:56 PM
Hmmm...we may be on to something here. Almost any class, barring Truenamer/CW Samurai, starts at a higher gear-free baseline than the Monk does in terms of party contribution. Therefore, the Monk contributes more than any other class in terms of spending his WBL on items for the party casters, since his potential competitors would instead buy stuff for themselves...Is the new 4-person party a Wizard and 3 Monks, creating a Wizard with 4x his normal WBL?:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

So why can't you just do that with 3 fighters? :smallconfused:

tyckspoon
2010-08-02, 06:58 PM
Observation: Tactic predicated on the assumption that there will be someone who can cast Mage Armor in the party.

Specifically, somebody who can also benefit from a Pearl of Power (the Memento Magica for spontaneous casters is not as cost-efficient and they're less likely to have Mage Armor available) but yes.

Lans
2010-08-02, 07:46 PM
The GMW one is less likely than Mage armor, though having a mage armored, magic weaponed, walloped monk might be worth the drop in spell selection.



Without having specific gear, and when using a 0 LA normal race contribute meaningfully to a reasonable assortment of CR 12 monsters at level 10 (in other words, contribute to the hard fights).

JaronK
Does this count self created items? ranging from artificer and item familiar to ancesteral relic.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-02, 07:48 PM
The GMW one is less likely than Mage armor, though having a mage armored, magic weaponed, walloped monk might be worth the drop in spell selection.

That's basically what the Tashalatora Psychic Warriors are.

Lans
2010-08-02, 07:55 PM
That's basically what the Tashalatora Psychic Warriors are.
Do you take a hit on flurry with Tashalatora? I figure the higher attack bonus from the buffs can make up for it, along with claws of the beast. 14 BAB with +6 from insight would be pretty standared I would think.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-02, 08:06 PM
No. Tashalatora fully progresses AC, damage and flurry.

Lans
2010-08-02, 08:13 PM
Well, they get them, but they get them too late, earliest level being 12. By that time, the forms you myght polymorph into would be far less effective in dealing with equivalent level challenges. Plus, being limited to level 5 spells also takes out some neat spell combos, metamagic use is limited...
They get web, and Animate dead when a sorcerer would be able to get those spells. The problem being is that they get nothing in between, a week start, and lack luster afterwords. I would say they are a smidge lower than warmages. Give or take a little.

Lans
2010-08-02, 08:16 PM
No. Tashalatora fully progresses AC, damage and flurry.

So I guess if you traded flurry for decisive strike you'd be screwed on that front then.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-02, 08:17 PM
So I guess if you traded flurry for decisive strike you'd be screwed on that front then.

It only makes sense to adapt it so that you progress decisive strike with Tashalatora. That's an alternate class feature, not a multiclass feat-sensitive dip =P

JaronK
2010-08-02, 08:48 PM
Does this count self created items? ranging from artificer and item familiar to ancesteral relic.

Those don't rely on the GM handing you the gear you want. Artificer items are the best... no matter what magic items you're handed, you can turn them into whatever you want. This makes Artificers extremely non gear dependent, despite the amount of gear they use.

My objection to all of Gia's Monks is that GMs never hand me absolutely everything I want for gear, so they're useless in play as I see it (and a Rogue would clearly be totally superior). Well, that and the obvious Class X fallacy going on there.

Basically, all of Gia's arguments are Class X fallacies, because he's somehow missed that "is the Monk powerful" is always actually "is the Monk powerful compared to other classes."

JaronK

Math_Mage
2010-08-02, 10:38 PM
Do you know what the wbl for level 6 is? 4,950 gp at that level is not "nearly half your wealth", it is 38%, to be precise. Sounds closer to a third than half for me.

Oh no, I missed the mark by all of 10 percentage points. Do you think a 40% expenditure of WBL constitutes a significant feature of your Monk?


More importantly, you are referring to ONE example build, in ONE sub-section of the total guide that I put forward in detail.

I am referring to the only monk build for which you list WBL expenditure. Levels 3-12, UMD is a significant (>35%) portion of that expenditure. After that, you start running out of wands to buy, and you start duplicating wand effects with permanent items; ironically, that's around the time when you can start reliably using those wands (+16 bonus at level 12). But you're always talking about how levels 1-12 are where most campaigns run, no?


It is entirely possible to apply the whole joker monk idea to just using permanent items (and some enlarge potions), as obvious from the guide which mentions several ways to get good buffing spells.

And I refer you back to my comment about your build being simply a WBL + friendly spellcasters build, with the Monk chassis an afterthought.


And yes, I put in a lot of effort into that guide. Which makes me somewhat...reluctant :smallamused: to see people criticising it for the wrong reasons, and then even refusing to accept when they have been proven wrong time and again.
This is not to say that I am not open for constructive criticism and ideas to improve the guide. Unfortunately, I have hardly received any.

Because the guide wasn't made to be played and criticized, but rather to prove a point. Naturally the feedback is a continuation of the arguments you got into prior to making the guide.


I learned by now that many as DMs would not allow rods of metamagic being applied to wands (like Saph, for instance) and I'd tend to follow that interpretation by now. The rod of extend is still very useful, though, for buffing by fellow pcs and can help everyone in the group, too. That, and also the pearl of power.
Is always good to have in the group and can be used by mid-level to guarantee long-lasting mage armours for the monk which is cheaper for a while than the bracers of AC.

- Giacomo

You, er, missed the point of my comment.

Bayar
2010-08-03, 08:16 AM
You, er, missed the point of my comment.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, he missed the point of most "nay-sayers" in his UMDMonk handbook. The best thing to do is walk away.

I for one am eagerly awaiting Giacomo's new guide to monks. With a bit of work, it too will become a veritable DeathBan Note as it's predecessor was (meaning it's like a list of people that got banned, growing steadily in the past 2 years).

Prodan
2010-08-03, 08:18 AM
So I guess if you traded flurry for decisive strike you'd be screwed on that front then.

Decisive Strike does not progress.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-03, 08:19 AM
Decisive Strike does not progress.

It does. Early you have a -2 penalty, then you gain a second strike, then the penalty is gone.

Prodan
2010-08-03, 08:19 AM
Really? I thought it was a static feature.

Lans
2010-08-03, 10:45 AM
I think its static in most builds due to the people that use it only take 2 levels of monk. DS works good with karmic strike/gambit but monks have trouble drawing aggro. More so than even fighters.

thompur
2010-08-03, 11:02 AM
In my homebrew, Monks can overcome DR with unarmed strikes, starting with Magic at 3rd level, then cold Iron, Silver. Adamantine, etc. Not a big boost, but something unique for the class.

Yuki Akuma
2010-08-03, 11:58 AM
In my homebrew, Monks can overcome DR with unarmed strikes, starting with Magic at 3rd level, then cold Iron, Silver. Adamantine, etc. Not a big boost, but something unique for the class.

They get magic, cold iron and adamantine anyway. So no, it's not a big boost at all.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-03, 12:02 PM
My personal fix on that angle, for a player who insisted on playing a Monk and didn't want Swordsage, was simply allowing Monk unarmed strikes to bypass 1 point of DR per class level, regardless of what (if anything) would normally bypass it. Still not much of fix, but it helped somewhat.

Lans
2010-08-03, 12:06 PM
You can also make its abilities encounter based, and increase the effect on some of them.

Instead of giving the monk an AC boost, give it a miss chance of 5% per boost instead. Give it it spell resistance earlier, and give it another 4-6 points over the progression. Allow Stunning fist to daze instead of stun.

Theodoxus
2010-08-03, 03:40 PM
One thing I don't get is the discussion on extra movement vs full attack. Yes, i know you can't normally move and full attack - but fighters, barbarians (classical, not pounce), paladins, etc all have the same issue. But monks can cover more ground initially, and then full attack the following round. I've played dwarven fighters that didn't get into combat for 3 rounds - and then had the 5' dance played against them too.

Is it more a combination of lack of reach weapons with lots of speed or the fact that you're not using your 60'+ move every round so why bother?

To me, it's a meh point at best - a monk can move from group to group better than other fighter classes - but they're all restricted to not moving to full attack afterwards.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-03, 03:47 PM
Fighters/Barbarians don't have "increased speed" and "extra attacks on a full attack" as class features, though. The monk has these presented as positive benefits, but can only benefit from one at a time.

Prodan
2010-08-03, 03:54 PM
Fighters/Barbarians don't have "increased speed" and "extra attacks on a full attack" as class features

If I may be so bold as to point something out?

AmberVael
2010-08-03, 03:55 PM
If I may be so bold as to point something out?

You mean there are Barbarians that don't take the Lion Totem alternate class feature? :smalltongue:

Gametime
2010-08-03, 04:24 PM
Fighters/Barbarians don't have "increased speed" and "extra attacks on a full attack" as class features, though. The monk has these presented as positive benefits, but can only benefit from one at a time.


In fairness, having increased speed and extra attacks on a full attack action are purely positive benefits. The monk isn't weakened by having these class features; they simply don't synergize (unless, of course, you've got Pounce or Travel Devotion or something similar, which you really should).

Even without being able to move and full attack in one turn, the increased speed is useful in non-combat situations (for scouting, running, and so on). Heck, every once in a while you'll start a battle more than 60 feet away from the enemy, and in that scenario the monk's extra speed does translate to more attacks because you can close sooner.

The real problem isn't that the class features don't synergize, it's that they don't synergize or do enough in isolation to make up for the monk lacking what other classes get.

On that note, giving the monk Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Rapid Assault as bonus feats, without prerequisites, is a good way to increase their mobility. Letting them add Flurry to Spring Attacks on top of that would make them pretty good skirmishers.

UserShadow7989
2010-08-03, 04:27 PM
The first and foremost problem I have with your guide, Sir Giacomo, is that you constantly praise Use Magic Device as the Monk's trump card, and their alertness (Spot and Listen) and stealth (Hide and Move Silently) as a major tool. The latter is done vastly better by the Rogue, and even the Wizard can cross class those skills thanks to his high INT or use a spell to do the exact same job.

While a great boon, Use Magic Device is not part of the Monk itself, or even something he uses exclusively better then others. Everyone can gain the benefit of Use Magic Device. And the Monk's 'synergy' does not make up for it. All the boosts that Monks can get from UMD, other Melee classes benefit from just as much.

In fact, Monks actually get LESS mileage out of UMD then other classes. He'wants to pump up Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, so he doesn't have points to spare for Int on top of that. While not barred from it, UMD being cross class means he needs to put much more effort into getting it for less of a pay off. He's spending a decent chunk of his WBL on magic items to keep his stats on par, more so then other classes as a Magic Weapon is cheaper then magic amulets and the like, so he gets far less money that can be spent on wands.

A Rogue has much more money to spend on UMD, much more skill points to spend on UMD, has UMD as a class skill and therefore gets more UMD for less effort, and has the bonus of being a much better scout, trap remover, and flanking buddy.

My question is, going solely on class features and without Use Magic Device, how does the Monk stack up against classes like the Rogue for scouting, the Fighter and Barbarian for melee, the Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, or even Adept for versatility, or Unarmed Swordsage for Unarmed combat? And with UMD, how does he stack up against classes that are using UMD to the same extent?

Also, your argument for MAD not existing is underwhelming. In the handbook you wrote, you state the following:


"Most of the times, you’ll read about a very popular monk myth, the multi ability dependence (MAD). Allegedly, the monk has to have more high stats everywhere than everyone else
True, the monk can make use out of great scores in all his abilities. So can everyone else. No difference. So everyone is MAD (multi ability dependent), to the same degree. Or no one is. It is that simple."

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. I highlighted the important part here: MAD is not when you 'make use out of great scores in all his abilities', it's NEEDING great scores in all his abilities to function at all. The fighter needs Str, Dex, and Con. He can and should pump as much as he can into Str, Dex, and Con, because those are the things he needs. The Wizard needs Int, and nothing but Int. He can put every point into Int and function like he's supposed to.

If a Monk is lacking, or even 'only average' in Str, Dex, Con, or Wis, he suffers as a result. And if he wants to skill monkey, he needs decent Int, too. He NEEDS great stats across the board. Other classes need only 1~3 good stats, and split their points among those for big bonuses. Monk needs 4 or 5 that he needs to keep boosting, so he can't increase them as much. It makes a HUGE difference.

You also state in the guide that these are things that "ONLY the monk can do or can do best in core":


- best grappler (No. of attacks, damage, bonus feat, spc additional effects like stunning fist- Note: FAQ has nerfed to no longer use stunning fist to be possible alongside grapple damage, so use unarmed strike with stun before grapple or in grapple at -4. His medium BAB does not matter much, and he can easily overcome it – see below)
- fastest scout (highest move, spot/listen/move silently/hide as class skills). Combined with the highest movement speed this means the monk has the highest chance of achieving a surprise melee attack.
- best defensive non-spell abilities in the game. Most are still useful once you use Silence and Antimagic Field (AMF) spells to your advantage.
- Highest base damage dice eventually. The full BABers with their martial weapons have power attack and two-handed weapons. The rogue has sneak attack. The monk has the unique power to make use of scaling his base damage (which also gets mutltiplied in a critical btw) with size increases. Weapon damage dies also increase with rising sizes, but 1) the monk achieves the highest base damage dice by level 15 in core with a monk’s belt, 2) the monk is the only one to get his fists enchanted since only his unarmed strikes are considered manufactured weapons and 3) the monk COULD be the one best affected by any morphing spells since he never has to worry about his weapons growing with him in morph, while he also retains all his other abilities like superior saves, SR and move enhancement.

I'll skip the last one, since I don't have any experience that would prove or deny it's merit. Grappling has little use other then getting an enemy to hold still. You prevent them from doing anything but chip away at you for little damage, yes, but you can't do anything but chip away at them either. And even with all the Monk's bonuses, anything with tentacles or a moderately larger size then the Monk can win Grapple checks just as often as the Monk does.

Fastest scout? Two major problems with that. Firstly, no trap finding. Speed means little if you get dropped into a spike filled pit, or get a giant pile of rubble dropped on your head. Second, fastest means getting far ahead of your party, or purposefully slowing yourself so they can keep up, which defeats the point. Tell me, what happens to a guy with a d8 hit die and no armor that bumps into an enemy encounter all alone? A Monk's Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen will never be as good as a Rogue's, due to lower Int score and less skill points, and even Rogues can get caught pretty often.

As for best defensive abilities, two of the Monk's defenses are built against things you'll never have to deal with, and the other three aren't that special. A minor bonus against enchantments and immunity to NON-MAGICAL diseases are worthless. Immunity to Poison is a VERY nice bonus, but does nothing against every other status ailment. Good Saves across the boards I'll give you. That leaves Spell Resistance.

The problem is with the Spell Resistance. It only stops the spells that are susceptible to SR, only works half the time (and less if they have any number of the metamagic feats made to get around it), and actually HINDERS you, since it blocks off allies healing and buffs (which includes Enlarge Person, the Monk's life long love and bestest boost evar). Which leaves him Wholeness of Body, something strictly inferior to cure light wounds by a low level Cleric.

The last point that appears both here and in your thread I'll touch upon is the Monk not needing to spend as much on magical items, as his class abilities do that heavy lifting for him:


You actually do not need as many items as the other non-spellcasting classes. Why? Because you have the most special abilities; magical or non-magical, that already do the stuff that items can do.
For instance, you need no (but in many cases you makes still high use of)
- extra saving throw protection (best BASE saves in the game, plus enhancement spell save bonus)
- spell resistance items
- immunity to disease and poison
- healing items
- movement-enhancing items (speed, dimdoor, etheralness, slow fall)
And if someone suggests to you to take the Amulets of might fists, use the last word to smack him over the head for it. Seriously. They are not only expensive, but also block the spot for other valuable amulets like WIS and CON enhancers. And WoTC designers themselves say by now that since the amulet occupies the wrong body slot, they should be cheaper in bracers form.

I'll grant you the saving throws and base movement bonus (though I'd like to point out there are classes with 2 good saves that can live with a single poor save, dimdoor 1/day and etherealness a Monk Level # of rounds per day doesn't cut it, and slow fall is a horrible version of feather fall, which costs only 2200 to get a permanent magical ring of or a single level 1 spell slot).

Natural diseases comes up how often? I've never seen one used, and I commonly read the ongoing campaigns on this forum. Poison's cheap to heal, and a Cleric can cure most of them in one turn for free. The Monk's self healing is nearly non existent, and does nothing to compensate for his small for melee fighter hit die. His spell resistance can't be turned on and off like an item's, and isn't big enough to matter when it does kick in.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-03, 04:30 PM
You mean there are Barbarians that don't take the Lion Totem alternate class feature? :smalltongue:

Theoduxus did say "classical Barbarians," after all.:smalltongue:

Lans
2010-08-04, 03:25 PM
What would happen if we traded Fob for skirmish like the scout gets?

Bayar
2010-08-04, 03:56 PM
What would happen if we traded Fob for skirmish like the scout gets?

That would boost your damage on your firsts attack, but then you'll be forced to attack only once per turn to activate your skirmish...

Olo Demonsbane
2010-08-04, 04:45 PM
The first and foremost problem I have with your guide, Sir Giacomo, is that you constantly praise Use Magic Device as the Monk's trump card, and their alertness (Spot and Listen) and stealth (Hide and Move Silently) as a major tool. The latter is done vastly better by the Rogue, and even the Wizard can cross class those skills thanks to his high INT or use a spell to do the exact same job.

Yes, but the Monk can do all of them. Additionally, the wizard will not have as high a Wisdom or Dexterity as the monk will, because monks always seem to have much better rolls/point buy than the wizard does.


While a great boon, Use Magic Device is not part of the Monk itself, or even something he uses exclusively better then others. Everyone can gain the benefit of Use Magic Device. And the Monk's 'synergy' does not make up for it. All the boosts that Monks can get from UMD, other Melee classes benefit from just as much.

The Monk benefits from Mage Armor more than a fighter does...that way he gets +4 to AC semi-constantly for a few levels for cheaper than the fighter's full plate!


In fact, Monks actually get LESS mileage out of UMD then other classes. He'wants to pump up Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, so he doesn't have points to spare for Int on top of that. While not barred from it, UMD being cross class means he needs to put much more effort into getting it for less of a pay off. He's spending a decent chunk of his WBL on magic items to keep his stats on par, more so then other classes as a Magic Weapon is cheaper then magic amulets and the like, so he gets far less money that can be spent on wands.

But he can use his UMD to pump up his ability scores. Wand of Bull's Strength (1 charge) anyone? He may need to spend a few rounds buffing up at the beginning of the battle, but a monk has higher speed so he can charge into battle 2 rounds after it started and get there in style!


A Rogue has much more money to spend on UMD, much more skill points to spend on UMD, has UMD as a class skill and therefore gets more UMD for less effort, and has the bonus of being a much better scout, trap remover, and flanking buddy.

Yes, but a monk will benefit more from UMD! If he spends another round at the beginning of a battle UMDing a wand of some sort to make his fists flaming, he'll do more than the rogue, who can't enhance his weapons with UMD as easily.


My question is, going solely on class features and without Use Magic Device, how does the Monk stack up against classes like the Rogue for scouting, the Fighter and Barbarian for melee, the Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, or even Adept for versatility, or Unarmed Swordsage for Unarmed combat?

That's not fair, you're taking away the Monk's most potent tool. We can't use this scenario.


And with UMD, how does he stack up against classes that are using UMD to the same extent?

See above.


Also, your argument for MAD not existing is underwhelming. In the handbook you wrote, you state the following:



You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. I highlighted the important part here: MAD is not when you 'make use out of great scores in all his abilities', it's NEEDING great scores in all his abilities to function at all. The fighter needs Str, Dex, and Con. He can and should pump as much as he can into Str, Dex, and Con, because those are the things he needs. The Wizard needs Int, and nothing but Int. He can put every point into Int and function like he's supposed to.

But when you're adventuring, you aren't going to just find enhancements to intelligence along with the many partially charged wands of divine power. You will find lots of +2 amulets to con, wis, str, etc. The monk will be able to use these better than the wizard.


If a Monk is lacking, or even 'only average' in Str, Dex, Con, or Wis, he suffers as a result. And if he wants to skill monkey, he needs decent Int, too. He NEEDS great stats across the board. Other classes need only 1~3 good stats, and split their points among those for big bonuses. Monk needs 4 or 5 that he needs to keep boosting, so he can't increase them as much. It makes a HUGE difference.

See above. The DM will provide as necessary. Oh, and you forgot Charisma. Very important for UMD usage.


You also state in the guide that these are things that "ONLY the monk can do or can do best in core":



I'll skip the last one, since I don't have any experience that would prove or deny it's merit. Grappling has little use other then getting an enemy to hold still. You prevent them from doing anything but chip away at you for little damage, yes, but you can't do anything but chip away at them either. And even with all the Monk's bonuses, anything with tentacles or a moderately larger size then the Monk can win Grapple checks just as often as the Monk does.

Um, excuse me? The monk can do a full attack while grappling; and if you hit with 3 attacks, that's a whopping 6d10+3*str! That's an average of 48 damage a round, assuming Strength 20! WOW!

And really, how often do you run into anything bigger than humans? My adventuring party always fights kobolds and occasional humans.


Fastest scout? Two major problems with that. Firstly, no trap finding. Speed means little if you get dropped into a spike filled pit, or get a giant pile of rubble dropped on your head.

It said "scout", not "trapfinder". And, again, even if you happen to run into traps (rare, IMHO), you can disable them by punching them! A rouge using a bow can't do that, eh?


Second, fastest means getting far ahead of your party, or purposefully slowing yourself so they can keep up, which defeats the point. Tell me, what happens to a guy with a d8 hit die and no armor that bumps into an enemy encounter all alone? A Monk's Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen will never be as good as a Rogue's, due to lower Int score and less skill points, and even Rogues can get caught pretty often.

Yeah, but with a faster speed, the monk is better at running away. We all know that's one of the monk's best strengths. And then they can use their UMD-boosted stealth to sneak back up on the enemy wizard when his hours/level and 2 day buffs have expired.


As for best defensive abilities, two of the Monk's defenses are built against things you'll never have to deal with, and the other three aren't that special. A minor bonus against enchantments and immunity to NON-MAGICAL diseases are worthless. Immunity to Poison is a VERY nice bonus, but does nothing against every other status ailment. Good Saves across the boards I'll give you. That leaves Spell Resistance.

Diseases come up very often! You know, when your monk comes back from a long adventuring spree and decides that he wants to go find some "company"? :smallwink: That's when players get non-magical diseases. And the monk is not susceptible to that. Additionally, that +2 bonus will help save you if your "company" turns out to be a succubus!


The problem is with the Spell Resistance. It only stops the spells that are susceptible to SR, only works half the time (and less if they have any number of the metamagic feats made to get around it), and actually HINDERS you, since it blocks off allies healing and buffs (which includes Enlarge Person, the Monk's life long love and bestest boost evar).

Yeah, but it doesn't stop spells that you UMD yourself. And at this level, the monk will be able to UMD all but the highest level scrolls and 5th level wands. So, at this level, the monk can say good bye to his allies and go solo. He certainly is powerful enough to take on encounters of his level alone. And this way he won't have to share the partially charged wands he finds.


Which leaves him Wholeness of Body, something strictly inferior to cure light wounds by a low level Cleric.

This adds to the monk's self sufficiency. He is now a healbot, even without having to use UMD!


The last point that appears both here and in your thread I'll touch upon is the Monk not needing to spend as much on magical items, as his class abilities do that heavy lifting for him:



I'll grant you the saving throws and base movement bonus (though I'd like to point out there are classes with 2 good saves that can live with a single poor save, dimdoor 1/day and etherealness a Monk Level # of rounds per day doesn't cut it, and slow fall is a horrible version of feather fall, which costs only 2200 to get a permanent magical ring of or a single level 1 spell slot).

Dimension Door 1/day costs 4*7*2000/5=11,200 on a custom item. Ethrealness likely costs more. Every gold piece you save gives you more spending cash when you get to go to the Magic Mart (TM) in the middle of the adventure after your wands run out.


Natural diseases comes up how often? I've never seen one used, and I commonly read the ongoing campaigns on this forum. Poison's cheap to heal, and a Cleric can cure most of them in one turn for free. The Monk's self healing is nearly non existent, and does nothing to compensate for his small for melee fighter hit die. His spell resistance can't be turned on and off like an item's, and isn't big enough to matter when it does kick in.

All of these have been addressed above.


Really, everyone, the monk isn't so terrible. It is one of the better core classes, especially at taking down spellcasters with a Wand of Antimagic Field (1 charge) and grappling. Cause they never fly. That'd be too complicated.

Caphi
2010-08-04, 04:49 PM
extended parody

I'm ashamed not to have gotten this until the third or fourth point.

JaronK
2010-08-04, 04:52 PM
That's because it sounds REALLY similar to a non parody version. Poe's law.

But seriously, I can't be the only one who wants to use Giacomo's Monk stuff to make an awesome commoner. I already made a pretty darn good Commoner charger (Half Minotaur Feral Water Orc Charger, baby!). Now I want to make him a UMD freak too. Maybe I should write the Commoner handbook!

JaronK

Origomar
2010-08-04, 04:56 PM
i think the main issue with the class is most of its abilities are next to useless or situational and increased movement with extra attacks when making a full round attack dont make any sense.

i mean

still mind- flavor mostly
slow fall- flavor mostly, situational
purity of body- situational and not that great
wholeness of body- not useless but not powerful
diamond body- situational
quivering palm- 1 week is way too long of a time
timeless body- flavor
tounge of sun and moon- yay a 3rd level spell at level 17
diamond soul- really needs to be changed so that friendly spells can get through.

Bayar
2010-08-04, 04:58 PM
Stuff

You know, this is something akin to the TMECUBE !!! RPG. It parodiessomething by imitating the source frightenly accurate.

Just one complaint. You forgot to remove the quote tags and make the text you wanna quote in italics.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-04, 04:58 PM
Monk vs. Rogue... (http://yafgc.net/?id=740)

Greenish
2010-08-04, 05:40 PM
Maybe I should write the Commoner handbook!Definitely. Commoners even get Handle Animal as a class skill. Like Giacomo has told us, the monk's greatest problem at fighting a druid is the druid's animal companion, so obviously a commoner with several animals trumps both easily!

But there is a way to benefit from monk's high speed and strength, which I believe Giacomo mentioned himself: http://www.classicmagic.net/tricks/fig-34.jpg

[Edit]:
You can also make its abilities encounter based, and increase the effect on some of them.What you're describing sounds awfully familiar… Oh yeah, swordsage.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-08-04, 06:05 PM
But seriously, I can't be the only one who wants to use Giacomo's Monk stuff to make an awesome commoner. I already made a pretty darn good Commoner charger (Half Minotaur Feral Water Orc Charger, baby!). Now I want to make him a UMD freak too. Maybe I should write the Commoner handbook!

You aren't the only one.

So, we have a Commoner Charger, a Commoner UMD master (maybe use Magical training to get a caster level, then add practiced spellcaster and some magic item creation feats), and the commoner Animal master. Anyone else have some commoner ideas?

Greenish
2010-08-04, 06:10 PM
You aren't the only one.

So, we have a Commoner Charger, a Commoner UMD master (maybe use Magical training to get a caster level, then add practiced spellcaster and some magic item creation feats), and the commoner Animal master. Anyone else have some commoner ideas?Diplomancer? It's not a class skill for commoners, but I've heard that that doesn't matter.

Optimized craft checks to break WBL? (Good luck with that. :smalltongue:)

Lans
2010-08-04, 06:11 PM
[Edit]:What you're describing sounds awfully familiar… Oh yeah, swordsage.

Not quite the same, the sword sage would still be better overall, and the monk would be better at things like running away from things.



But seriously, I can't be the only one who wants to use Giacomo's Monk stuff to make an awesome commoner. I already made a pretty darn good Commoner charger (Half Minotaur Feral Water Orc Charger, baby!). Now I want to make him a UMD freak too. Maybe I should write the Commoner handbook!

JaronK
I actually started one of those, only it used less UMD and was based on a party of 4-5 commoners. I'll see if I can find it.


That would boost your damage on your firsts attack, but then you'll be forced to attack only once per turn to activate your skirmish...

I was thinking more on whether they become viable skirmishers through spring attack or what ever, with having two synergistic class features and whether it would be a fair trade.
Actually wasn't there an ACF or substitution level that traded something for skirmish?

JaronK
2010-08-04, 06:20 PM
I've had a party of Commoners that I DMed for before. It was great fun, but they weren't allowed to optimize at all because they were just townsfolk (skill focus: profession barkeep). It would be fun to try and take a Commoner into real play.

JaronK

Kurald Galain
2010-08-04, 06:20 PM
Anyone else have some commoner ideas?

Needs moar Chicken Infested.

Lans
2010-08-04, 06:23 PM
My commoner stuff never got passed a general outline, but hear it is.

Commoner
Ability scores
Con>Dex>=Str>Int>Wis<Chr
Races Human, Warforged, (water)Orc, dragon born, mongrel folk, nezumi, kobold, Warforged
Races
Feats
More feats
Flaws- gets you two additional feats for negligible flaws
Soul trades in for two feats
Worshiping an elder evil Gets 1 feat plus 1 per 5 hd
Taint gets up to 2 feats

Good feats
Knowledge devotion- worth +1 to hit and damage
Binding feats> can get an array of abilities
True naming
Wild Cohort
Item Familiar
Draconic Aura
Ancestral Relic
Necropolis Born, Spell Hand, Night Haunt, Communicator

Heritage Feats
Fey 5 Feats, 4 are useful. Gives some nice spells, DR Con doesn't really help till level 6.
Fiendish Gets Suggestion at 6th, Teleport at 9th,
Abyssal Bonus AC, attacks, DR, unarmed strikes, spot and search
Devil touched bonus AC, hp, DV, daze

Vile Abyss bound> summon a Tanri of CR 1/2 your level. This is cast at a spell level equal to your level. Insane Defiance
Willing Deformity line Can get a frightful presence of things with less HD, immunity to Mind affecting, DR,
Ceremony feats

White Raven Tactics
Edit: The spelling was terrible.

JaronK
2010-08-04, 06:23 PM
Actually come to think of it I put together a great character for a game recently that was Commoner 1/Crusader 2/Henchman 3. Infested with Chickens and Tasty are two amazing flaws that were totally worth taking... enough that I would say Commoner 1 is an optimized choice to consider. Tasty forces monsters to attack you, and if you have an Immovable Rod they'll swallow you whole (the flaw makes them want to) and then you escape out leaving them with an Immovable Rod in their stomach. Then shoot them to death. Infested with Chickens comes up all the time. It's pretty awesome.

But yeah, Diplomacy, UMD, and Handle Animal can provide amazing power for Commoners (you'll need a way to get the first two up to decent levels).

JaronK

Greenish
2010-08-04, 06:31 PM
Actually come to think of it I put together a great character for a game recently that was Commoner 1/Crusader 2/HenchmanWhere's henchman from?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-04, 06:32 PM
Where's henchman from?

My first thought was he meant Survivor from Savage Species, but I believe the same Dragon Magazine with Chicken Infested also has the Henchman class based off of Nodwick.

JaronK
2010-08-04, 06:34 PM
Yeah, that's the one. It's an awesome and hilarious class, with abilities like Monster Bait (enemies attack you first), Hench Form (you become small no matter what because of how stooped over you are), Common Sense (the DM tells you if the players are doing something stupid), and an ability that doubles your carrying capacity at every level.

JaronK

tyckspoon
2010-08-04, 06:35 PM
I was thinking more on whether they become viable skirmishers through spring attack or what ever, with having two synergistic class features and whether it would be a fair trade.


It is near impossible to be a viable skirmish-fighter with just Spring Attack; the mechanics of Spring Attack deny a lot of the easiest means of bonus damage, and it's really quite hard to do anything really good with a single attack otherwise (Skirmish doesn't do it, really, unless you vastly speed up the damage progression of it. And even then you're looking at basically fighting like an unoptimized Warlock, only you have to enter the enemy's personal space to do your 11 or 12d6 worth of damage instead of standing off 30 feet and ladling on a couple negative levels while you do it.)

If you really want to do it I'd probably make it one of the Monk Combat Style ACFs (along with giving them a Skirmish progression, naturally.) Level 1: Dodge, Level 2: Mobility, Level 6: Spring Attack, skill requirement: Tumble. Combat Style benefit: You may use your Flurry of Blows attacks when making a Spring Attack.

Greenish
2010-08-04, 06:38 PM
Yeah, that's the one. It's an awesome and hilarious class, with abilities like Monster Bait (enemies attack you first), Hench Form (you become small no matter what because of how stooped over you are), Common Sense (the DM tells you if the players are doing something stupid), and an ability that doubles your carrying capacity at every level.Sounds brilliant. Gotta get Leadership accepted and grab meself one. :smallcool:

tyckspoon
2010-08-04, 06:48 PM
Sounds brilliant. Gotta get Leadership accepted and grab meself one. :smallcool:

Leadership? LEADERSHIP? Pelor, no, you don't Leadership a Henchman. You hire them. They're no more members of your party than your 10-foot poles or your coils of rope! I mean, your cleric can heal them, if she's really nice and wants to. But you don't have to. It's in the contract.

(Seriously, if you really wanted to use Leadership rules for the situation a Nodwick-type Henchman is in, they'd be a very specialized kind of Follower.)

Teron
2010-08-04, 07:26 PM
Yeah, that's the one. It's an awesome and hilarious class, with abilities like Monster Bait (enemies attack you first), Hench Form (you become small no matter what because of how stooped over you are), Common Sense (the DM tells you if the players are doing something stupid), and an ability that doubles your carrying capacity at every level.

JaronK
What issue is the henchman in? It's not the one with the commoner flaws.

Greenish
2010-08-04, 07:30 PM
Leadership? LEADERSHIP? Pelor, no, you don't Leadership a Henchman. You hire them. They're no more members of your party than your 10-foot poles or your coils of rope! I mean, your cleric can heal them, if she's really nice and wants to. But you don't have to. It's in the contract.

(Seriously, if you really wanted to use Leadership rules for the situation a Nodwick-type Henchman is in, they'd be a very specialized kind of Follower.)Okay, gotta get me a Leadership and grab a few of them. :smallamused:

UserShadow7989
2010-08-04, 08:00 PM
I'm ashamed not to have gotten this until the third or fourth point.

I'm ashamed it took me until your post. I really don't have a high opinion of other people's intelligence.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-08-04, 08:10 PM
I'm ashamed it took me until your post. I really don't have a high opinion of other people's intelligence.

I feel terribly offended :smalltongue::smallwink:


Back to commoners though, someone in the arena has a Abberant Commoner that's loads of fun...

Hmmm, you can fake your way through being an Incarnate with feats...or a swordsage...

Warforged with Adamantine Body for a very durable commoner...

Dragonwraught Kobold Commoner with Epic Toughness...

My brain's a-whirling now...

EDIT: I think I'm actually going to make this guide, if no one has any objections. PM me any suggestions if you don't want to post them here :smallbiggrin:

UserShadow7989
2010-08-04, 08:40 PM
I feel terribly offended :smalltongue::smallwink:

Terribly sorry, I'm so used to dealing with nuts and 'lolj00suxxors' online that meeting someone stable is a breath of fresh air.


Back to commoners though, someone in the arena has a Abberant Commoner that's loads of fun...

Hmmm, you can fake your way through being an Incarnate with feats...or a swordsage...

Warforged with Adamantine Body for a very durable commoner...

Dragonwraught Kobold Commoner with Epic Toughness...

My brain's a-whirling now...

EDIT: I think I'm actually going to make this guide, if no one has any objections. PM me any suggestions if you don't want to post them here :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I can't wait. That's going to be a fun read through.

Math_Mage
2010-08-04, 09:22 PM
EDIT: I think I'm actually going to make this guide, if no one has any objections. PM me any suggestions if you don't want to post them here :smallbiggrin:

Couldn't you just ctrl-c Gia's guide and ctrl-r "monk" to "commoner"? :smalltongue:

Olo Demonsbane
2010-08-04, 09:56 PM
Couldn't you just ctrl-c Gia's guide and ctrl-r "monk" to "commoner"? :smalltongue:

Commoners get handle animal :smalltongue:

El Dorado
2010-08-04, 11:04 PM
I play monks to beat up (unoptimized) commoners. The cinematic fight scenes are breath taking!

Kurald Galain
2010-08-05, 04:32 AM
Leadership? LEADERSHIP? Pelor, no, you don't Leadership a Henchman. You hire them. They're no more members of your party than your 10-foot poles or your coils of rope!

Yeagar says hello :smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2010-08-05, 05:03 AM
What issue is the henchman in? It's not the one with the commoner flaws.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871710/Chicken_Infested!_Basket_Weaving!_BAH!_Try_Henchma n!

Try there.

JaronK

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-07, 09:20 AM
Ah, I see...:smallamused:

...the question part of what a monk is supposed to be able to do at what level and what environment seems to be receding ...(and there were already quite a lot, thanks, all questions will be answered in the upcoming new monk guide).

Instead, a lot of mediocre parodies and usual fallacies about what my guide is allegedly about and how much UMD it allegedly needs and how I maintain that the monk is better at UMD than everyone else and makes best use out of it and how a commoner npc class can do everything with UMD just as well etc.:smallconfused:

For those interested, I once answered (with the poster name "Themistokles")to a lot of the questions on the guide over at wizards.com over a year ago - my answers triggered some people to ask the mods there to shut down the thread before I had to any chance to object, unfortunately. Or I would have been able to continue to answer questions on the guide over there.

Here's the link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871206/Beating_Batman:_Sir_Giacomos_guide_to_Monks&post_num=218#338387914) for those interested in a different opinion while waiting for the monk guide update.

Two adjustments I'd make to what I said in that wizards thread:
1. Everyone can really just move out of a solid fog, but the movement is limited to 10 ft per round (with two move actions), not 1 round with 20 ft (4x move reduced to 2x move, due to bad visibility)
2. The single item value limit for each level can be 50% of total wbl, not just 25%. It depends on which of the two existing guidelines of the DMG you use.

- Giacomo

Boci
2010-08-07, 09:36 AM
Ah, I see...:smallamused:

...the question part of what a monk is supposed to be able to do at what level and what environment seems to be receding ...(and there were already quite a lot, thanks, all questions will be answered in the upcoming new monk guide).

Instead, a lot of mediocre parodies and usual fallacies about what my guide is allegedly about and how much UMD it allegedly needs and how I maintain that the monk is better at UMD than everyone else and makes best use out of it and how a commoner npc class can do everything with UMD just as well etc.:smallconfused:

For those interested, I once answered (with the poster name "Themistokles")to a lot of the questions on the guide over at wizards.com over a year ago - my answers triggered some people to ask the mods there to shut down the thread before I had to any chance to object, unfortunately. Or I would have been able to continue to answer questions on the guide over there.

Here's the link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871206/Beating_Batman:_Sir_Giacomos_guide_to_Monks&post_num=218#338387914) for those interested in a different opinion while waiting for the monk guide update.

Two adjustments I'd make to what I said in that wizards thread:
1. Everyone can really just move out of a solid fog, but the movement is limited to 10 ft per round (with two move actions), not 1 round with 20 ft (4x move reduced to 2x move, due to bad visibility)
2. The single item value limit for each level can be 50% of total wbl, not just 25%. It depends on which of the two existing guidelines of the DMG you use.

- Giacomo

One thing you will probably need in your new guide is to convince people that a monk can be a viable option when compared to the swordsage. Or are you just making this guide for people who cannot/will not use ToB?

JaronK
2010-08-07, 10:03 AM
Ah, I see...:smallamused:

...the question part of what a monk is supposed to be able to do at what level and what environment seems to be receding ...(and there were already quite a lot, thanks, all questions will be answered in the upcoming new monk guide).

That question is critical, but your guide completely failed to answer it, because all you said amounted to "first, get a bunch of partially charged wands..." at which point everyone who can't buy those in game (read: most players) tuned out. Notice how many assumptions about the style of play were in your guide. Now compare that to better guides, and notice how few assumptions they have.


Instead, a lot of mediocre parodies and usual fallacies about what my guide is allegedly about and how much UMD it allegedly needs and how I maintain that the monk is better at UMD than everyone else and makes best use out of it and how a commoner npc class can do everything with UMD just as well etc.:smallconfused:

Allegedly? We've quoted your guide. You want to buy partially charged wands and spend rounds in combat buffing yourself, then you state this is how Monks are supposed to be played. In fact, your guide assumed that's possible (and desirable, as though combats in D&D always last long enough for wasting rounds to be a good idea). Your guide for Monks was in many ways just a guide to UMD, so yes, it applies to Commoners as well because it's a guide for exploiting UMD if the DM is nice to you and lets you have every item you want, not an actual guide for Monks.

Look, you want to make a half decent actual guide for Monks? Ignore everything that isn't about Monks. Focus on what the Monk provides, and on things that then work well with Monks. Drop the Class X stuff... if anything in your guide applies as much to Commoners as it does to Monks, you're off track again. Show how a Monk in a given situation is a better class than another similar class (this is why the comparison to Swordsage is important... why play a Monk if an Unarmed Variant Swordsage will make the same character, only better and in a more interesting and fun way?).

If it's a guide to Monks, it should be about Monks

And definitely drop the huge UMD budget. All classes are powerful when the DM lets them have whatever custom gear they want... that's hardly unique to Monks, and guides don't need to say that. After all, someone could just buy a bunch of Candles of Invocation...

JaronK

Math_Mage
2010-08-07, 11:51 AM
Ah, I see...:smallamused:

...the question part of what a monk is supposed to be able to do at what level and what environment seems to be receding ...(and there were already quite a lot, thanks, all questions will be answered in the upcoming new monk guide).

That's because interest petered out due to lack of answers. Ball's in your court, Gia.


Instead, a lot of mediocre parodies and usual fallacies about what my guide is allegedly about and how much UMD it allegedly needs and how I maintain that the monk is better at UMD than everyone else and makes best use out of it and how a commoner npc class can do everything with UMD just as well etc.:smallconfused:

That's only a part of it, just as it's only a part of your guide. The meat of the argument is that 99% of the build has nothing to do with what the Monk can do. It's to do with what every class can do with WBL, UMD, a few feats (a commoner misses out on Improved Init, Improved Disarm, INA, and Stunning Fist--and loses what, exactly?) and a lot of opti-fu. Practically the only thing I'd miss if I were to play a different class than Monk would be the extra attacks, and 10 dead levels isn't really worth it for that.


For those interested, I once answered (with the poster name "Themistokles")to a lot of the questions on the guide over at wizards.com over a year ago - my answers triggered some people to ask the mods there to shut down the thread before I had to any chance to object, unfortunately. Or I would have been able to continue to answer questions on the guide over there.

Yeah, I lost interest in that post after you spent multiple paragraphs on partial charged wands. I mean, I read through the post, casually noting things like your mistake about Solid Fog (thankfully noted in your post), your constant assumptions about being able to Hide every encounter (playing with a rogue, I can attest to the difficulty of this--but I can live without it; can the monk?), and your...ah...interesting interpretation of how the playtesting went. But my heart wasn't really in it.