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Tyndmyr
2010-07-17, 09:57 PM
I've been slowly creeping up the difficulty level of encounters. A lot. The last encounter I built involved one mob of equal CR to the party, two more that were +2 CR, and two more that were +4 CR. In a setting that involved the monsters only needing to push two buttons to win, requiring a PC chase, and with traps everywhere. That was...decently challenging, but they still weren't terribly worried as they defeated it.

But hey, designing huge fights can take a while. I like busting out the occasional premade module. Anything I've seen available requires either ridiculous amounts of tweaking upward, or ends up being walked over in about twenty minutes.

I threw ToH at them last night, and they liked it. They want something like it, but tougher. Any suggestions?

Hallavast
2010-07-17, 10:01 PM
I've been slowly creeping up the difficulty level of encounters. A lot. The last encounter I built involved one mob of equal CR to the party, two more that were +2 CR, and two more that were +4 CR. In a setting that involved the monsters only needing to push two buttons to win, requiring a PC chase, and with traps everywhere. That was...decently challenging, but they still weren't terribly worried as they defeated it.

But hey, designing huge fights can take a while. I like busting out the occasional premade module. Anything I've seen available requires either ridiculous amounts of tweaking upward, or ends up being walked over in about twenty minutes.

I threw ToH at them last night, and they liked it. They want something like it, but tougher. Any suggestions?

I think you're doing something wrong.

Edit: Seriously though, it sounds like the power level of your games is a lot higher than normal. Looking for modules published by WotC likely won't satisfy the needs of your game. You could try something from a third party source (i really can't help you there), or you could cherry pick encounters from normal mode modules and continue to up the CR. But if you're doing this, you might as well create your own encounter from scratch. It takes about the same amount of time and effort in the long run, I'd think.

An alternate solution might be to get rid of the lower-tiered classes next game.

I say all this, because Tomb of Horrors is the most difficult published massacre "adventure" that I've ever run or seen. It is designed to kill characters. Earlier editions of the game were expected to involve not only the party, but squads of hirelings, men-at-arms, and henchmen that aren't typically seen in today's parties. This would often mean that instead of killing PCs, the deathtraps and supermonsters would instead kill these "fodder". This and the fact that parties were often much larger (6-12 players) back then made the module playable.

As a side note, it is interesting to note that 9th level in first edition DnD was actually quite high (near endgame stuff). Which means that Gygax's ToH was designed to kill players that were traditionally "homegrown" from level one. Since PCs arguably leveled slower back then, this, in effect, means that ToH was meant to kill the representations of months or even years of effort. That's hardcore.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-17, 10:09 PM
Idle curiosity, though it may give us a ballpark range for modules to suggest, but what level is the party, how many PCs are there, what classes are they, and what level of optimization are they using? Because they do sound like they're very overpowered.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-17, 10:10 PM
Well, we've learned to search everything for traps. And then search the traps for traps. Paranoia is pretty much standard, and even the noobs to D&D quickly end up understanding how to optimize. They did have three fatalities, but they cleared the entire dungeon and got every bit of loot. Probably not a net profit, when the cost of purchased spells and healing pots were considered, but it wasn't actually that terrible.

ToH is probably horrible for people not used to copious amounts of traps, but they've already gotten comfortable with the idea that mistakes may result in level 9 spells going off. I could start busting out epic stuff, but given that the characters are now level 15 at the highest(and some several levels behind that), it seems a bit early.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-17, 10:11 PM
I think you're doing something wrong.


I hardly think that optimizing is "doing something wrong".

Lhurgyof
2010-07-17, 10:14 PM
Ouch, they seem much too overpowered for their level, and that screws up the whole CR/XP system.
I'd say to use optimized NPC's against them. xD

Arbitrarity
2010-07-17, 10:15 PM
given that the characters are now level 15 at the highest(and some several levels behind that), it seems a bit early.

There's the problem. Gigantic level disparity means the high level characters roll encounters, even of "equal" level. Especially if "equal" level is the party's average level. However, what sort of party composition are we looking at here, anyways?

Roc Ness
2010-07-17, 10:17 PM
How about throwing ToH at them while they play E6 Dnd? Can they optimize successfully in just six levels?

Hallavast
2010-07-17, 10:19 PM
I hardly think that optimizing is "doing something wrong".

I agree. I meant that as more of a jest at the expense of ToH than a criticism of Tyndmyr's playstyle.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-17, 10:32 PM
Idle curiosity, though it may give us a ballpark range for modules to suggest, but what level is the party, how many PCs are there, what classes are they, and what level of optimization are they using? Because they do sound like they're very overpowered.

Factotum 15: High degree of optimization, and relies on an optimized int, a clever selection of inexpensive magic items(for instance, the boots that allow a 5 ft adjust to avoid reflex saves), and an insane amount of inspiration points. Poor physical stats except for con. Somewhat below standard WBL. Can play pretend caster due to items, UMD, and of course, his built in casting.

Mystic Theurge 14(cleric/sorc, used early entry): Played by the same player as above, so never in the same party. Defensively relies on wings of cover, is the closest thing to a healer the party has, and has a ludicrous collection of partially charged wands, scrolls, and so forth. These aren't purchased, all loot is rolled randomly, we're just pack rats. Probably slightly above WBL. Is a lich. Uses sudden metamagics for alpha strike on bosses.

Druid/MoMF 14(I think...might be 13 still): New player. However, also a druid, with a full christmas tree effect of well chosen magic items, including an artificers monocole and a top hat. Prefers bear form for hilarity. All items are clasped to work in forms, so except for social situations, is never actually in her normal form. Ends up tanking a lot, spells get busted out only when ridiculous melee damage isn't the answer. About par on WBL.

Samurai 15: Newer player. Has discovered the wonders of adamantium for his weapon. Cleverly used the fluff of his clan as opium producers together with social skills to become a rather successful drug dealer. Also a tank, and above average WBL due to his ability to deal socially.

Wizard 13: Highly optimized. My character, and I've ended up DMing the most, so not frequently with the party. Focused specialist abjurer/Incantatrix/IOT7V grey elf. Used to be well above WBL, but is now broke, due to an unfortunate pull from the DOMT.

Rogue/Assassin/Forget what else 13: The classic greedy halfling, this guy has piles of loot, and is highly optimized, making use of a wild number of magic effects. Optimized UMD allows him to play caster when need be, but he also is fond of death attacks.

Sorcerer 14: I know this guy has PrCs, but I can't recall what they are. He's a lich too, and thus, will likely be falling behind the party shortly. Both him and the other caster converted over recently. Ridiculously evil, and tends to play mostly blasty, and solve most problems through violence. Held in check by the rest of the party, who plays evil cleverly, though.

All PCs can be assumed to have extradimensional storage in quantity, and have essentially any mundane item available at any point in time. Normal buffs like flight and invisibility are always available to the party. The world is a sandbox one, they range from neutral to evil, and are essentially out for personal gain. Players attending at any given point in time range wildly, with a low of 2, and a current high of 5(have had more in the past). ToH was done with two.

The world they live in is custom, with elements of all settings present. High magic, though there are powerful political forces out for the destruction of magic as a whole. They have significant political friends and allies, but frankly, armies are not a threat.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-17, 10:35 PM
There's the problem. Gigantic level disparity means the high level characters roll encounters, even of "equal" level. Especially if "equal" level is the party's average level. However, what sort of party composition are we looking at here, anyways?

Eh, Im furthest behind, and Im a batman wizard. I'm not terribly worried about keeping up. In one awkward battle, we determined that either me or the MT could kill the entire rest of the party in one round, but between the two of us, it was entirely a game of rocket tag, in which both of us are very good at dodging rockets. Thankfully, we came to an agreement three rounds in, before the casualties were too great.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-17, 10:50 PM
I say all this, because Tomb of Horrors is the most difficult published massacre "adventure" that I've ever run or seen. It is designed to kill characters. Earlier editions of the game were expected to involve not only the party, but squads of hirelings, men-at-arms, and henchmen that aren't typically seen in today's parties. This would often mean that instead of killing PCs, the deathtraps and supermonsters would instead kill these "fodder". This and the fact that parties were often much larger (6-12 players) back then made the module playable.

As a side note, it is interesting to note that 9th level in first edition DnD was actually quite high (near endgame stuff). Which means that Gygax's ToH was designed to kill players that were traditionally "homegrown" from level one. Since PCs arguably leveled slower back then, this, in effect, means that ToH was meant to kill the representations of months or even years of effort. That's hardcore.

We actually play a bit like this. We have a small army at our disposal, though we don't generally use them just as fodder. The campaigns been going from level one, and while we always allow new characters to be made at one level lower than the lowest party member, some of them have come up all the way. The assassin, for example.

Thing is, most modern modules are not actually threatening to even decently played characters of the level.

Look at the highest module on wizards, Icy Heart. We have...an EL 24 dragon. But wait...she's an old white dragon/druid 10. Not particularly synergistic. And she's elected not to gain an animal companion. What? Abilities...gust of wind, and fog cloud as SLAs. Some very specialized abilities as well. Not impressive. Her fifth level prepared spells have only a single combat option. And she can be easily bypassed by talking.

And we have, as a seperate encounter, a CR19 dire bear. Well, dire bear/barb6/ftr6, which is at least somewhat reasonable for a beatstick build. Unfortunately, his ranged options are, well, none. His best magic spell is mage hand. This isn't going to end well.

And that's it. That's not going to challenge a level 20 party for a night.

LansXero
2010-07-18, 08:57 AM
Have you tried Glacier Season? Its from Dungeon Magazine # 087, and it seems like at least the final Dragon may be a bit of a challenge :D

Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 09:20 AM
That I haven't...unfortunately, I never subscribed to Dragon. Know of a good source for finding either the adventure or the magazine?

LansXero
2010-07-18, 10:17 AM
{Scrubbed}

Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 03:10 PM
Long as it's a legal source, I believe you're fine.

CapnVan
2010-07-18, 04:55 PM
Long as it's a legal source, I believe you're fine.

That wouldn't be a legal source, no.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-18, 05:29 PM
Bastion of Broken Souls. Right now. See how far they get.