Is there a downside to becoming a lich?

[shadmere]

If I wanted my cleric to become a lich, does that have any downsides mechanically? The roleplaying stuff fits right into my character's "fall from grace," but I'm wondering if I am missing something that would actually make this a bad idea.

If there are any better ways for my character to become immortal, what are they?

Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Yukitsu]

The level adjustment 4 is considered too much for most people, but honestly, liches are powerful, fun and durable enough that not being optimal is alright. Just remember, you'll never be as good as the guy with spells 2 levels higher than you.

[kamikasei]

Level Adjustment.

[Hurlbut]

Utterly Insanity. Usually the ritual cause that. :smallbiggrin:

[Arbitrarity]

Consider Necropolitan (Libris Mortis) instead, for a template without LA. Drops you a level, but you regain XP rapidly, not having +4 level adjustment. Oh, and you don't have to spend 120000 gp.

[shadmere]

Ah, ok. So how does that work, exactly? If I became a lich at level 12, would that mean that I would have to gain five more levels before I hit level 13?

[Jack_Simth]

If I wanted my cleric to become a lich, does that have any downsides mechanically? The roleplaying stuff fits right into my character's "fall from grace," but I'm wondering if I am missing something that would actually make this a bad idea.

If there are any better ways for my character to become immortal, what are they?

Thanks. :smallsmile:

1) Lack of Con score. Sure, you go from a d8 hit die to a d12 hit die... but on average, that's the equivalent of a +2 Con mod. If you have more than that (including if it's because of an item of +X Constitution), you lose HP.
2) A +4 Level Adjustment is painful, unless for whatever reason, you don't suffer for it (e.g., Gestalt - most the down sides of LA go away when they're on one side only).
3) That Phylactery will set you back half a level (4,800 xp), and a decent chunk of change (120,000 gp). Oh yes, and then there's the crafting time.
4) You have a spot of difficulty going out in public, after.

[Shadowleaf]

4) You have a spot of difficulty going out in public.
If you have the talents to do the ritual, you most surely have the talents to mask your undeath.

[Jack_Simth]

If you have the talents to do the ritual, you most surely have the talents to mask your undeath.

He mentioned he's a Cleric. Disguise Self, Veil, and such aren't in most domains. A Hat of Disguise could work... but that's an interaction Will save DC of 11. Have fun when a commoner-1 shakes your hand, and has a 50/50 chance of seeing through it.

[Hallavast]

If I wanted my cleric to become a lich, does that have any downsides mechanically? The roleplaying stuff fits right into my character's "fall from grace," but I'm wondering if I am missing something that would actually make this a bad idea.

If there are any better ways for my character to become immortal, what are they?

Thanks. :smallsmile:

It increases your ECL by giving you a fairly steep level adjustment (+4 if I can remember?) This may or may not be an issue if you become a lich midgame. It depends on how your DM (and party mates) will handle the disparity in effective power levels.

You also lose your constitution modifier (but I think you exchange HD for d12s) if you have a decent con as a living cleric, you'll probly lose hitpoints. Your fort save will also likely drop, but you are subject to fewer saves to begin with.

You're subject to all the vulnerabilities of the undead subtype.

If you use standard diplomacy rules and count it as a "mechanic", then you will probably notice most normal NPCs' initial reactions to you to drop to unfriendly if not hostile unless you can disguise the fact that you're dead (which usually means using a spell slot or item on gentle repose or disguise self).

Positive energy now hurts instead of heals you, but now negative energy does the opposite.

Edit: entirely ninja'd, of course.

[Yukitsu]

Ah, ok. So how does that work, exactly? If I became a lich at level 12, would that mean that I would have to gain five more levels before I hit level 13?

Well, you're actually supposed to just get a really slow EXP acquisition rate from then on, but most DMs just play it that you don't gain levels until it's paid off.

[shadmere]

I'm actually a Bone Knight, so in a few levels my armor will be fused to my body anyway. I figure my helmet should do a good job of hiding anything funky.

I mean, I still look like a villain, obviously. :p

And I've only got a Con of 13 right now.

[Morithias]

You can't taste coffee. LOL

Anyways the real downside to being the lich is boredom actually. Think about it, even if you do live for like 1000 years or so, eventually you'll run out of stuff to study or do. Plus since the ritual is so evil well, you can't exactly kill yourself to escape without going to the under realms.

[EagleWiz]

The only big one that comes to mind (other then LA) is Turn Undead.

[Tyndmyr]

The LA is a pain, but if you're say, towards the end of an adventure...go for it. The four level difference will not pose a problem.

Ditto for epic.

[Jack_Simth]

The only big one that comes to mind (other then LA) is Turn Undead.
Oh, yes. Sun domain clerical opponents will murderize you fairly easily. Keep forgetting that aspect.

[Tanuki Tales]

You can't taste coffee. LOL

Anyways the real downside to being the lich is boredom actually. Think about it, even if you do live for like 1000 years or so, eventually you'll run out of stuff to study or do. Plus since the ritual is so evil well, you can't exactly kill yourself to escape without going to the under realms.

There are Good Liches.

[Zeta Kai]

You're undead, so:

You can be turned.
You can be rebuked.
You can be harmed by positive energy.
Resurrection & true resurrection are no longer your friends.
Nobody likes you.
You probably smell.
Food goes right through you, & that's the best case scenario.
You don't wanna know what the worst case scenario is like.
You are doomed to an existence in which hired killers will periodically hunt you down & kill you, all because of what you are & the stuff that you have for them to take.
In this doomed existence, you have fairly low hit points, & there isn't much that you can do to fix that, even with your magical power.

[Tyndmyr]

You're undead, so:

You can be turned.
You can be rebuked.

Meh. You have bonus turn resistance. And its not like turning is that effective, or as if ways of avoiding this don't exist.


You can be harmed by positive energy.

But negative energy is now good. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.


Resurrection & true resurrection are no longer your friends.

Now, this IS a weakness. However, one that the phylacteries help negate. And hey, if you woulda died from old age anyway, not really an issue.


Nobody likes you.

Eh, you were probably evil already. Like, really evil.


You are doomed to an existence in which hired killers will periodically hunt you down & kill you, all because of what you are & the stuff that you have for them to take.

See above.


In this doomed existence, you have fairly low hit points, & there isn't much that you can do to fix that, even with your magical power.


The lack of a con score is probably the biggest worry. I like hp. Of course, increasing all current and future hit die to d12s does kinda mitigate that. If that's not sufficient, picking up improved toughness always helps, and magical power CAN do a lot to improve your survivability.

[The Glyphstone]

He mentioned he's a Cleric. Disguise Self, Veil, and such aren't in most domains. A Hat of Disguise could work... but that's an interaction Will save DC of 11. Have fun when a commoner-1 shakes your hand, and has a 50/50 chance of seeing through it.

Isn't that what Gentle Repose is for? If he casts it immediately after enacting the ritual, his body will be preserved identically to the state it was in when he died. If he wraps up a bit, it should be sufficient to avoid giving himself away to casual examination.

[Eurus]

One of the reasons why Dry Lich is so much cooler. Unholy Toughness, baby. :smallcool:

[FMArthur]

Adventurers will plague you from the moment of your undeath (unbirth?). You don't even need to reveal yourself to the world; divinations everywhere will point adventurers in your direction as a powerful lich operating too close to society.

[shadmere]

My current Con is only 13, so am I really losing potential hitpoints? It seems like going up from 1d8 with a +1 con bonus to 1d12 with no con bonus makes it likely that I'd gain hitpoints. Or am I missing something else?

And yeah, I thought it'd be kinda hard to turn me. If it'd be easy, then I definitely need to think of another idea. :p

[Mongoose87]

One of the reasons why Dry Lich is so much cooler. Unholy Toughness, baby. :smallcool:
Plus, you use Walker in the Wastes to get in, and dodge the LA.

[balistafreak]

My current Con is only 13, so am I really losing potential hitpoints? It seems like going up from 1d8 with a +1 con bonus to 1d12 with no con bonus makes it likely that I'd gain hitpoints. Or am I missing something else?

Constitution-boosting items and buffs.

... those aren't standard-issue, though, but it's something to keep note of.

+1 Constitution modifier = 1 HD step. So d8 HD with +1 Con modifier = d10 with no Con modifier.

(You'll note that this is why Necropolitan is great for casters. It's like having a free 18 in Constitution; d4 to d12 is 4 "steps".)

What you don't have is a Fortitude save worth a damn. I hope you have Contingency against Disintegrate. :smalleek:

[Zaakar]

1) Lack of Con score. Sure, you go from a d8 hit die to a d12 hit die... but on average, that's the equivalent of a +2 Con mod. If you have more than that (including if it's because of an item of +X Constitution), you lose HP.
Most often in DnD "on avarage" is your friend. Not really in this case though. I recently made an 18th lvl character a lich and my risk to drop to 80, 90 HP wasn't that small. Ended up with more then I started off with though :smallsmile:


Meh. You have bonus turn resistance. And its not like turning is that effective, or as if ways of avoiding this don't exist.
But the turn resistance is no greater then the LA :smallconfused:

Anyway, go nuts. It's fun :smallamused:

[2xMachina]

Go Walker and take the free Dry Lich template?

It's a bigger pain to hide though, with the dry aura.

[Lycanthromancer]

Just be careful not to use turning yourself. You could accidentally dust yourself if you roll really well.

And yes, unless something has changed regarding turn attempts, you can turn yourself, since it specifies 'nearest undead,' and that would be you.

Also, I second necropolitan, or better yet, levels in Ghostwalk ghost if you want to become undead. If you're willing to take the +4 LA, use some other templates, as you can get better ones that might even be worth the level adjustment, such as evolved undead and spellstitched. Grab a nightmare, hide your body well, and use astral projection if you want to be able to spontaneously arise after dying that much.

[Set]

11. No sex.

[Steward]

Wait, so it's possible for an evil cleric to rebuke himself!?

[Lhurgyof]

Wait, so it's possible for an evil cleric to rebuke himself!?

The power of me compels me!

[NowhereMan583]

The power of me compels me!

I can see it now. He pulls out his evil holy symbol, rebukes some nearby undead... and then gets so impressed with how awesome he is that he has to sit down for a while.

[Lycanthromancer]

11. No sex.Oh, come on. It's not like there isn't the Lich-Loved feat floating around out there.

[Gametime]

I think that there exists no stronger evidence that 3.5 has too much material written for it than the fact that Lich-Loved probably isn't even in the top three squickiest templates.

At least liches aren't mindless.

[2xMachina]

I think that there exists no stronger evidence that 3.5 has too much material written for it than the fact that Lich-Loved probably isn't even in the top three squickiest templates.

At least liches aren't mindless.

Wait, how does it even work with liches? They're bones right? No fleshy parts?

[NowhereMan583]

Wait, how does it even work with liches? They're bones right? No fleshy parts?

Well, Xykon appears to be just bones, but according to the MM description, their flesh is still there, just stretched really tightly over their skeleton. I suppose there's no reason they wouldn't be... equipped... but the concept is awfully disturbing.

(I'd never heard of this "Lich-Loved" thing before, and now I'm a little squicked out.)

[Tyndmyr]

Isn't that what Gentle Repose is for? If he casts it immediately after enacting the ritual, his body will be preserved identically to the state it was in when he died. If he wraps up a bit, it should be sufficient to avoid giving himself away to casual examination.

That's actually what my party liches do. They haven't missed a day yet, so their bodies are still relatively normal. Now, if they ever forget...

[Killer Angel]

You can't taste coffee. LOL

Anyways the real downside to being the lich is boredom actually. Think about it, even if you do live for like 1000 years or so, eventually you'll run out of stuff to study or do. Plus since the ritual is so evil well, you can't exactly kill yourself to escape without going to the under realms.


There are Good Liches.

Yeah, but neither them can taste coffee.

[Talon Sky]

11. No sex.

Bring new meaning to the term, "Getting boned." :D

[Closak]

You will no longer be able to feel the pleasures of the flesh for one.

That part can be a real pain in the ass.

[Mnemnosyne]

Anyways the real downside to being the lich is boredom actually. Think about it, even if you do live for like 1000 years or so, eventually you'll run out of stuff to study or do. Plus since the ritual is so evil well, you can't exactly kill yourself to escape without going to the under realms.
I'm not sure I agree with this. You'll be destroyed far before you run out of things to do, in my opinion. Seriously. You know how space is vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big? Well the multiverse is that, to the 38th power, except it's mostly full of stuff. No matter how long you exist, there is always going to be things somewhere out there you have not seen, done, learned, or experienced.

Now if you limit yourself to sitting around in a moldering ruin, reading books and doing magical study, sure, you're gonna get bored. But that's why there's a whole bloody multiverse out there to get out and do stuff in.

[NowhereMan583]

Mnemnosyne is correct - there is far more stuff to do in the D&D multiverse than even an immortal lich could ever accomplish. There'd always be something new happening somewhere, so boredom really isn't an issue. Assuming, of course, that the lich can move between planes.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Ideally, there shouldn't be much downside to being a lich. The point is that it's a totally rational thing if you're actively evil and willing to do anything for more power. The "downside" for most characters will be that "unspeakably evil" ritual that's never spelled out, so probably involving baby murder or some such thing.

[Maerok]

Some DMs will hound you with Maruts or other kinds of inevitables.

[NowhereMan583]

The "downside" for most characters will be that "unspeakably evil" ritual that's never spelled out, so probably involving baby murder or some such thing.

I really wish they would spell that out. As it is, it puts too much on the DM, especially if he's not expecting it. If a high-level spellcaster wants to find out how to become a lich, it's pretty necessary for the player to know exactly what the ritual entails, so they can decide whether their character would be okay with it. So the DM either has to invent something "unspeakably evil" on the fly, or explain why Mage McMage, who likely has piles of ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and access to a research library, can't find the ritual for some reason.

Or go into a bad comedy routine.
Player: So what's the unspeakably evil ritual?
DM: I can't tell you. It's unspeakable. I can't speak of it.

[Sasha Tate]

11. No sex.

Wish + gentle repose = body restored to time of death and no further decay. I actually played a necromancer whose mother was a lich and went though this. Of course she was creating a curse of miscarriage to decimate the women of the kindgom. I became a sort of side experiment. She didn't love me, but she did find me just interesting enough to keep alive. When the adventurers killed her I admit I was more than a bit upset, but hardly surprised. Of course the crypt was never the same without her so I became an adventurer myself. That was a fun campaign. Especially when I learned the paladin was my half brother.

[Natael]

If you have the corpse crafter feats, could you then corpsecraft yourself into a lich?

For necropolitan, wouldent it make sense to be able to pay a bit more for the people doing the ritual to have the feats, therefore getting spiffy stuff like exploding in negative energy when someone kills you?

Personally, I figure if you're spending 120,000gp on something like that, it shouldent give you any LA (much like going through Dragon Disciple shouldent screw you with LA). But that is entirely house ruled.

[Tyndmyr]

Or go into a bad comedy routine.
Player: So what's the unspeakably evil ritual?
DM: I can't tell you. It's unspeakable. I can't speak of it.

This is literally what I do. It's unspeakable, after all.

The two party casters checked into a room together. They brought in twelve kittens, two innocent laughing children, a puppy, and a butterfly. 24 hours later, the strange flashes of light from under the door stopped, and they came out liches.

[Starbuck_II]

This is literally what I do. It's unspeakable, after all.

The two party casters checked into a room together. They brought in twelve kittens, two innocent laughing children, a puppy, and a butterfly. 24 hours later, the strange flashes of light from under the door stopped, and they came out liches.

Wait, did the laughing children become Liches or the spellcasters?

[Prodan]

Can't a lich just Alter Self into something with fleshy bits?

[deuxhero]

He mentioned he's a Cleric. Disguise Self, Veil, and such aren't in most domains. A Hat of Disguise could work... but that's an interaction Will save DC of 11. Have fun when a commoner-1 shakes your hand, and has a 50/50 chance of seeing through it.

He knows it's a fake, it doesn't disappear. Claim you look ugly and are sensitive about it (it will even work in a zone of truth!)

[NowhereMan583]

Wait, did the laughing children become Liches or the spellcasters?

The puppy and the butterfly did, obviously. :smallbiggrin:

(Note: I dare you to use an awakened butterfly lich as your next BBEG.)

[Beorn080]

Meh. No sex. Your forgetting about the most funnest spell in existence for that, and its core even.

Magic Jar

I mean really. It can get you pretty much anyone, as anyone. Nothing like making the Elf do a striptease before the Big Fight.

[Dr.Epic]

Honestly, I can't see anything wrong with it.

[Amiel]

Presumably it's the following: "For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it! Too long I've been starvin' to death and haven't died! I feel nothing! Not the wind on my face, nor the spray of the sea... nor the warmth of a woman's flesh."

[gallagher]

Ideally, there shouldn't be much downside to being a lich. The point is that it's a totally rational thing if you're actively evil and willing to do anything for more power. The "downside" for most characters will be that "unspeakably evil" ritual that's never spelled out, so probably involving baby murder or some such thing.

actually, i found out the hard way what it involves. i wont reveal the whole process (i mean, really, i dont want more people with my affliction) but one step is sitting old people on a chair, tying them down, and forcing them to watch the nations of the world song from the animaniacs for 5 hours straight.

the last step involves eating brussel sprouts

[Lycanthromancer]

actually, i found out the hard way what it involves. i wont reveal the whole process (i mean, really, i dont want more people with my affliction) but one step is sitting old people on a chair, tying them down, and forcing them to watch the nations of the world song from the animaniacs for 5 hours straight.I actually memorized that, so maybe it's not quite as unspeakable as indicated.

[Mnemnosyne]

Presumably it's the following: "For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it! Too long I've been starvin' to death and haven't died! I feel nothing! Not the wind on my face, nor the spray of the sea... nor the warmth of a woman's flesh."

There are definitely powers and spells that can change that. I'm pretty sure most liches can cast Polymorph, for instance, and since that allows the subject to change their type, they can change to humanoid type. If that doesn't feel strong enough, go all the way with Shapechange. A Mind Switch psionic power would also work pretty nicely, just switching you into a living person's body for a while.

[gallagher]

I actually memorized that, so maybe it's not quite as unspeakable as indicated.
i tried, but instead memorized the modern major general song from pirates of penzance.


and its unspeakable, but not unsingable!

[Katana_Geldar]

The puppy and the butterfly did, obviously. :smallbiggrin:

(Note: I dare you to use an awakened butterfly lich as your next BBEG.)

Because NOBODY ever suspects the butterfly. :smallbiggrin:

[Cahokia]

Well, Xykon appears to be just bones, but according to the MM description, their flesh is still there, just stretched really tightly over their skeleton. I suppose there's no reason they wouldn't be... equipped... but the concept is awfully disturbing.

(I'd never heard of this "Lich-Loved" thing before, and now I'm a little squicked out.)

Well, if you're really undead, I'm guessing you have the same problem Mr. Edward Cullen has. No bloodflow means, well...I think you get the picture.

[Katana_Geldar]

Well, if you're really undead, I'm guessing you have the same problem Mr. Edward Cullen has. No bloodflow means, well...I think you get the picture.

Since when ever has that pile of bantha poodoo made any sense?

[Gametime]

Well, if you're really undead, I'm guessing you have the same problem Mr. Edward Cullen has. No bloodflow means, well...I think you get the picture.

Twilight vampires actually have flowing blood. It's sort of but not really implied that they aren't actually undead, since aside from getting super hard skin and venomous body fluids, they keep functioning much the same after the transformation.

...Or so I heard. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrSoIHeard)

[Eldan]

While I haven't ever even seen a Twilight book, I've heard the rumour that originally, they were supposed to be Sidhe.

[Myth]

You could metagame your arse off. If your DM has stated this to be a 1 to 16 lvl campaign, and you are halfway trough lvl 15, and it's obvious that your group has to plunge in to the final fight soon, just go and become a Lich, gaining a terrific boost in power right before the endgame, when the LA doesn't matter anyway. Just be careful with your phylactery.

[gallagher]

While I haven't ever even seen a Twilight book, I've heard the rumour that originally, they were supposed to be Sidhe. i heard that they are a terrible way to make money off of teenage girls going through a tough time adjusting to hormones. my fiancee actually tried reading one of the books and threw it in the fire because it had no literary value

[Prodan]

It can be used to make compost and serves as toilet paper in a pinch.

[NowhereMan583]

It can be used to make compost and serves as toilet paper in a pinch.

I had to read this a couple times to be sure that "it" was not, in fact, the lich. (Though they may or may not be good compost material.)

[shadmere]

You could metagame your arse off. If your DM has stated this to be a 1 to 16 lvl campaign, and you are halfway trough lvl 15, and it's obvious that your group has to plunge in to the final fight soon, just go and become a Lich, gaining a terrific boost in power right before the endgame, when the LA doesn't matter anyway. Just be careful with your phylactery.

I have to admit, the thought's tempting. Of course, the players in my group tend to take in-game timeframes a wee bit too seriously. I wouldn't be completely surprised if they didn't let me take the 120 days "off" that I'd need to take. "We're about to go kill the BBEG! We can't just sit around for months!" (Early in the game, they didn't want to backtrack to a safe, cozy room we had found, complete with beds, because it would take an hour or so to walk there. We ended up sleeping in our armor in the middle of a cave, instead. Note that we had no in-game reason to be in a hurry, either. :smallannoyed: Ah well. :smalltongue:)

[taltamir]

Ah, ok. So how does that work, exactly? If I became a lich at level 12, would that mean that I would have to gain five more levels before I hit level 13?

you become a lich at level 12... from now on your DM awards you XP as if your level is 4 level higher... so you are now gaining XP as if you are a 16th level character. meaning significantly less XP, and significantly slower leveling. this is actually not that bad depending on which level you became a lich at... level 17 (in a game without epic magic) is ideal. Combined with the XP cost to craft your phylactery, expect to fall behind on level.

however, if you are creating a character from scratch, things are worse... while your peers create 12th level characters, you are going to create a level 8 wizard with the lich template...


Well, you're actually supposed to just get a really slow EXP acquisition rate from then on, but most DMs just play it that you don't gain levels until it's paid off.

that is a common rule DMs use, so it really depends on the DM.

All that being said, there ARE "alternative" lich types... for example, dry lich, which don't suck.

[Talon Sky]

Please, people. Edward Cullen is not a vampire or any kind of undead.


He sparkles in the sun
He doesn't kill people
He lives in a forest


Obviously, he's a fairy. :D

[Gametime]

Please, people. Edward Cullen is not a vampire or any kind of undead.


He sparkles in the sun
He doesn't kill people
He lives in a forest


Obviously, he's a fairy. :D

Psh. In all the myths worth the syllables they're spoken on, fairies are way more ruthless than that floppy-wristed whiner.

[CubeB]

Every adventurer in a 5 mile radius will come and try to kill you.

So, I mean, that's an issue.

[Starbuck_II]

Please, people. Edward Cullen is not a vampire or any kind of undead.


He sparkles in the sun
He doesn't kill people
He lives in a forest


Obviously, he's a fairy. :D

He doesn't live in a forest. He lives near one. He lives in a mansion near the forest.
He plays baseball in the forest, but that is neither here nor there.

[gallagher]

He doesn't live in a forest. He lives near one. He lives in a mansion near the forest.
He plays baseball in the forest, but that is neither here nor there.

so he is in denial?

[Lord Vampyre]

In this doomed existence, you have fairly low hit points, & there isn't much that you can do to fix that, even with your magical power.


This is why wizards create golems, in the first place. If I were you, I would just look into creating the divine version of a wizards golem.

[Lycanthromancer]

Please, people. Edward Cullen is not a vampire or any kind of undead.


He sparkles in the sun
He doesn't kill people
He lives in a forest


Obviously, he's a fairy. :DHey, stop insulting fairies like that.

Navi would have a heart glow-attack, or maybe ride a giant alien bird and stab you with a spear, depending on which continuity she feels like following that day.

[Sindri]

Clay golems are already made by divine casters. It's because they were originally based on the actual golem myths, where a rabbi would make a man out of clay and animate them with scrolls of scripture in their heads, in order to defend against anti-Semitic attacks.

[Flame of Anor]

11. No sex.

I don't know, I'm sure there would be ways for a lich to get his bone on. :smalltongue:

[Sindri]

As long as you put a Gentle Repose on immediately after dying, nothing decays and you should stay "functional."

[Gametime]

Are we having the same conversation about undead and sex two separate times in a three page thread? :smalltongue:


Hey, stop insulting fairies like that.

Navi would have a heart glow-attack, or maybe ride a giant alien bird and stab you with a spear, depending on which continuity she feels like following that day.

I've always wanted to run a campaign where the Fair Folk are eldritch monstrosities - sort of like in Exalted - and have the Big Bad yell "HEY! LISTEN!" in a gleeful voice before he starts eviscerating people while telling them all about the various weaknesses of the human anatomy.

...That's normal, right?

[Lycanthromancer]

...rabbi...Is that the plural of 'rabbit'?

[dgnslyr]

Is that the plural of 'rabbit'?

Of course! Doesn't everybody know that rabbits would band together in order to build mighty golems that defended their warrens to the end? How else could they fend off the terrible house cats?

[Gametime]

Of course! Doesn't everybody know that rabbits would band together in order to build mighty golems that defended their warrens to the end? How else could they fend off the terrible house cats?

This should really be a movie. It's like a crossover between "American Tail" and "Watership Down." You know, with golems.

[Schylerwalker]

Doesn't it take like, three frickin' MONTHS to make a lich's phylactery? I don't really see an adventurer sitting around for three months when he could be traveling around beating up dragons and seducing fair maidens and setting taverns on fire.*

*Because, really, this is all adventurers do.

[AgentofOdd]

Twilight vampires actually have flowing blood. It's sort of but not really implied that they aren't actually undead, since aside from getting super hard skin and venomous body fluids, they keep functioning much the same after the transformation.This. I mean the dude has a daughter now for god sakes (yea he boned the protagonist).

[Lhurgyof]

...Or so I heard. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrSoIHeard)

Damn your link! I clicked lolicon, 'cause I thought it had something to do with an lol thing.
And it turned out to be lolita. They ****in' log your ip for clicking on that stuff. Dx

But on a different note: When you get to the high levels, chances are becoming a lich will be a good finish to a character.

[Draz74]

I actually memorized that, so maybe it's not quite as unspeakable as indicated.

Nice Autohypnosis check.

[Lycanthromancer]

Nice Autohypnosis check.Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5POQ4k62x80) gives a +10 circumstance bonus for that particular function.

[Coidzor]

i heard that they are a terrible way to make money off of teenage girls going through a tough time adjusting to hormones.40 year old women who want to fantasize about guys with the body of 16 year olds and who regret their failures of lives.

There, fixed that for ya. :smallwink:

[Maerok]

There seems to be a sudden flareup in lich postings...

I'm currently working on a large fluff/crunch writeup to follow up on my Complete Lich homebrew (sig :smalltongue:). It'll have examples of different rites and the addition of customizations to make the Lich template worth the +4 LA.

[Lycanthromancer]

There seems to be a sudden flareup in lich postings...The boards do that. One thread shows up, which inspires other questions, leading to more threads.

Just nobody mention UMD in regards to you know what...

[Sydonai]

(Sorry)(Please delete this)

[RE:Insanity]

Positive energy kills you.

[Lycanthromancer]

Positive energy kills you.It does that anyway. Try visiting the positive energy plane some time.

[dgnslyr]

It does that anyway. Try visiting the positive energy plane some time.

Incidentally, death by positive energy overload made me imagine that there's an epic level dwarf fighter living there, granted immortality among other things by his god for his services, past and future. For this, the dwarf guards the positive energy plane from intruders, him and his humble home being the first thing travelers see. He's got 19+ fortitude without magic items (12 for 20th level fighter, 7 from 24 con [18 base +2 racial+4 level up]), and so many temporary hitpoints that he's practically unkillable. I was going to say he's a knight, so he doesn't autofail on a 1, but knights have a bad fort. save, for some reason. Now, if only there was an easy way to not autofail fortitude saves...

[NowhereMan583]

It does that anyway. Try visiting the positive energy plane some time.

If anything, having positive energy harm and negative energy heal you is a plus. On the Material Plane, it's an even trade, but outside the Material Plane, there is now one fewer place that is deadly to you. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that the Negative Energy Plane is harmless for undead, while the Positive Energy Plane can be a place of swift, messy death for the living.

[Gametime]

Incidentally, death by positive energy overload made me imagine that there's an epic level dwarf fighter living there, granted immortality among other things by his god for his services, past and future. For this, the dwarf guards the positive energy plane from intruders, him and his humble home being the first thing travelers see. He's got 19+ fortitude without magic items (12 for 20th level fighter, 7 from 24 con [18 base +2 racial+4 level up]), and so many temporary hitpoints that he's practically unkillable. I was going to say he's a knight, so he doesn't autofail on a 1, but knights have a bad fort. save, for some reason. Now, if only there was an easy way to not autofail fortitude saves...

Steadfast Determination will do it. If you're constitution-focused, it's a good feat anyway to boost your will save.

[FelixG]

The negative energy plane actually empowers undead and heals them, there is no downside for undead there. Where as a living critter who pops over to the positive energy plane, well, pops :D

[Starbuck_II]

Incidentally, death by positive energy overload made me imagine that there's an epic level dwarf fighter living there, granted immortality among other things by his god for his services, past and future. For this, the dwarf guards the positive energy plane from intruders, him and his humble home being the first thing travelers see. He's got 19+ fortitude without magic items (12 for 20th level fighter, 7 from 24 con [18 base +2 racial+4 level up]), and so many temporary hitpoints that he's practically unkillable. I was going to say he's a knight, so he doesn't autofail on a 1, but knights have a bad fort. save, for some reason. Now, if only there was an easy way to not autofail fortitude saves...

Isn't that PHB 2 feat?

[Fax Celestis]

1) Lack of Con score. Sure, you go from a d8 hit die to a d12 hit die... but on average, that's the equivalent of a +2 Con mod. If you have more than that (including if it's because of an item of +X Constitution), you lose HP.
2) A +4 Level Adjustment is painful, unless for whatever reason, you don't suffer for it (e.g., Gestalt - most the down sides of LA go away when they're on one side only).
3) That Phylactery will set you back half a level (4,800 xp), and a decent chunk of change (120,000 gp). Oh yes, and then there's the crafting time.
4) You have a spot of difficulty going out in public, after.

5. You look like a skeleton.
6. You detect as evil because you're undead, even if you're actually a really nice dude. And no, baelnorns still detect as evil because of the Undead type.
7. No more sex. That is, aside from lichloved.

[FelixG]

5. You look like a skeleton.
6. You detect as evil because you're undead, even if you're actually a really nice dude. And no, baelnorns still detect as evil because of the Undead type.
7. No more sex. That is, aside from lichloved.

5: you can easily disguise as something else
6: in the LM there is a template for "good" lich that wont ping as evil
7: There is Lich Loved and Gheden ~.^ yay for undead sex! :P

[Starbuck_II]

5: you can easily disguise as something else
6: in the LM there is a template for "good" lich that wont ping as evil
7: There is Lich Loved and Gheden ~.^ yay for undead sex! :P

No, undead are detected by detect evil despite any subtype they have.

[FelixG]

My mistake then.

[Talon Sky]

I've always wanted to run a campaign where the Fair Folk are eldritch monstrosities - sort of like in Exalted - and have the Big Bad yell "HEY! LISTEN!" in a gleeful voice before he starts eviscerating people while telling them all about the various weaknesses of the human anatomy.

...That's normal, right?

You are a God. Lol.

[dgnslyr]

Steadfast Determination will do it. If you're constitution-focused, it's a good feat anyway to boost your will save.

Thanks. Next time I DM, I'm going to throw in said dwarf.

[taltamir]

7: There is Lich Loved and Gheden ~.^ yay for undead sex! :P

while technically you COULD... you no longer possess the desire, or the equipment to enjoy it...
as xykon said "you did not tell me that I would no longer be able to taste coffee".
You can no longer ENJOY the pleasures of the flesh, even the simple ones such as eating and drinking.

[Lycanthromancer]

while technically you COULD... you no longer possess the desire, or the equipment to enjoy it...
as xykon said "you did not tell me that I would no longer be able to taste coffee".
You can no longer ENJOY the pleasures of the flesh, even the simple ones such as eating and drinking.This is probably why polymorph any object was invented.

[FelixG]

while technically you COULD... you no longer possess the desire, or the equipment to enjoy it...
as xykon said "you did not tell me that I would no longer be able to taste coffee".
You can no longer ENJOY the pleasures of the flesh, even the simple ones such as eating and drinking.

Well you might not be able to enjoy it but you definatly do posess the equipment.

Gheden states that you inherit the template when, this is the important part, one of your parents is undead. So it stands to reason that if a creature wants to father or mother a child both parties need to be equiped for such a task ~.^

[taltamir]

This is probably why polymorph any object was invented.

you now lack the DESIRE to use it for such a purpose.


Gheden states that you inherit the template when, this is the important part, one of your parents is undead. So it stands to reason that if a creature wants to father or mother a child both parties need to be equiped for such a task ~.^

there are different kinds of undead. necropolitans, vampires, etc... those can still do so.

also, there is always the chance of your mother being turned into an undead with you still in the womb.

but all in all, its just a stupid gaffaw by WOTC. big surprise there.

[olentu]

you now lack the DESIRE to use it for such a purpose.

So what is the problem then. Do you desire the ability to desire the ability but not actually desire the ability that you can get.

[Mnemnosyne]

you now lack the DESIRE to use it for such a purpose.
If you lack the desire then it's not a downside, because you no longer care. If you do care, then you have the desire.

[Zombimode]

Meh. No sex. Your forgetting about the most funnest spell in existence for that, and its core even.

Magic Jar

Im a bit suprised most people seem to ignore this most obvious solution.

Magic Jar will not only solve the sex issue, but almost all others besides the LA.

[dsmiles]

12. You die.

[Optimystik]

This is probably why polymorph any object was invented.

Liches are immune :smalltongue: no coffee for you!

[Lycanthromancer]

Liches are immune :smalltongue: no coffee for you!Um...doesn't polymorph any object affect, y'know, objects?

If so, then it affects undead, since that part overrides polymorph's strictures against affecting non-living things.

[mikeejimbo]

Isn't there a feat for undead that lets them use their Charisma instead of Constitution for HP?

[Eldan]

There's the special ability that pops up on a lot of the newer undead, but I haven't seen it in feat form, as far as I know.

[Mnemnosyne]

Liches are immune :smalltongue: no coffee for you!


Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.

Polymorph works, they just have to cast it themselves.

[taltamir]

If you lack the desire then it's not a downside, because you no longer care. If you do care, then you have the desire.

but you only don't care after you have undergone the transformation...

once you become a lich you no longer have the desire for it... you wouldn't miss it...
but UNTIL you become a lich you do have the desire for it, and would refuse to become a lich because you would lose the desire...

[Lycanthromancer]

but you only don't care after you have undergone the transformation...

once you become a lich you no longer have the desire for it... you wouldn't miss it...
but UNTIL you become a lich you do have the desire for it, and would refuse to become a lich because you would lose the desire...Ostensibly, liches still remember their previous lives, and still desire pleasure, whether the source of that pleasure is physical or not.

If Xykon can crave coffee, he can crave sex, or at least he can crave the gratification and intimacy that once came from it (if he was that kind of person, anyway).

There are several ways he can get that back, and even though he might not have the physical urge to procreate any longer, that doesn't mean he won't desire sex, if only emotionally (until he alters himself enough physically to have those urges again).