Psionic Brokenness

[Saintjebus]

Now, I know that psionics is not broken. I am acquainted with someone who thinks so, however, and I want to understand where his point of view comes from. He is an older guy who has been DMing since AD&D.

His most common comment is that there are 10 psionic rounds for every regular round. I have searched the SRD high and low, and cannot find any support for anything like this. Does anyone know where that misconception originated?

I am aware of the other common misconception, that of the ability to spend power points greater than your manifester level.

Thanks in advance!

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Now, I know that psionics is not broken. I am acquainted with someone who thinks so, however, and I want to understand where his point of view comes from. He is an older guy who has been DMing since AD&D.

His most common comment is that there are 10 psionic rounds for every regular round. I have searched the SRD high and low, and cannot find any support for anything like this. Does anyone know where that misconception originated?

I am aware of the other common misconception, that of the ability to spend power points greater than your manifester level.

Thanks in advance!

The only argument for psionics being broken is where people don't know about the pp limit you mentioned, and once I tell them about that they realize psionics might be fine. I don't know what that 10 psionic rounds per round even means.

[Milskidasith]

Maybe he got *really* confused reading about Planar Shepards?

[balistafreak]

It sounds like he's referencing some sort of Schism/Hustle/whatever combo.

While it can produce a stupidly large amount of actions (infinite in some cases, perhaps with an infinite PP combo thrown in there too) most DMs stop that nonsense in its tracks with a well-timed DMG pimpslap.

It's no more broken than Celerity shenaigans, anyways. There's something broken in every form of casting, tell him he should open his eyes and look around more.

[Saintjebus]

Ah. I see. I thought maybe it was some silliness with 2nd edition psionics. I really kind of want to play a psion! :smalltongue:

[Innis Cabal]

2nd Ed psionics were pretty silly. But not really...that silly. They just worked differently then anything else.

[Douglas]

He might be referring to "psionic combat", the set of rules governing two psionic creatures battling each others' minds. It's been a long time since I read the 2e psionics rules, but there might have been something in there about it happening faster than physical battles. That whole concept was, thankfully, dropped in 3.5.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psionics does do well at playing with action economy. There are a few tricks psionics can do (such as hustle, schism, temporal acceleration and synchronicity loops) to get extra actions, but except for a very small number of things (primarily synchronicity loops - from CPsi, big surprise there) it can't really smash campaigns overly much.

Magic is considerably more powerful and outright broken most of the time, though, especially with celerity and arcane fusion loop-tricks, with which they can do similar things.

Compared to the core casters, psionics is downright tame. It's powerful compared to most non-casters (with a few exceptions, such as most of the tier 3 classes), but then again, what isn't?

If you cheese things out, any class can be broken. Thousands of damage with a barbarian at mid-levels, miles-wide craters with a wizard, obliterating everything within the radius. Infinite-time loops. Nigh invulnerability. Etc.

So no, it's not really more broken than anything else, with similar optimization, and a lot less so than a lot of things. Just read the rules, understand the rules, and don't try to purposefully go out of your way to destroy the campaign (because you really can't do so by accident, generally), and you'll be fine.

[Dacia Brabant]

His most common comment is that there are 10 psionic rounds for every regular round. I have searched the SRD high and low, and cannot find any support for anything like this. Does anyone know where that misconception originated?

I have to agree with douglas that this might refer to psionic combat from the old 3.0 rules for psionics. Emphasis on old as psionics have been overwritten almost completely and is now one of the best and most balanced systems in the game, making it IMO the best thing about updating to 3.5. So, don't worry about it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

He might be referring to "psionic combat", the set of rules governing two psionic creatures battling each others' minds. It's been a long time since I read the 2e psionics rules, but there might have been something in there about it happening faster than physical battles. That whole concept was, thankfully, dropped in 3.5.


I have to agree with douglas that this might refer to psionic combat from the old 3.0 rules for psionics. Emphasis on old as psionics have been overwritten almost completely and is now one of the best and most balanced systems in the game, making it IMO the best thing about updating to 3.5. So, don't worry about it.

Well they haven't been completely forgotten in 3.5

Hyperconcious a 3rd party book written by Bruce Cordell (smae guy that wrote the expanded Psionic handbook) has rules for mindscape combat, I haven't read it yet and I never had played psionics in 2e (as a matter of fact I have never played 2e) so I can't comment anymore on that.

[Douglas]

I have to agree with douglas that this might refer to psionic combat from the old 3.0 rules for psionics. Emphasis on old as psionics have been overwritten almost completely and is now one of the best and most balanced systems in the game, making it IMO the best thing about updating to 3.5. So, don't worry about it.
No, from what I remember of 3.0 psionics there's nothing in there about psionic combat happening extra fast. 2e psionics might do that, I'm not sure, but not 3e.

[Dacia Brabant]

No, from what I remember of 3.0 psionics there's nothing in there about psionic combat happening extra fast. 2e psionics might do that, I'm not sure, but not 3e.

Hmm, I believe you're right. I found a post on ENWorld saying that the extra-fast psionic combat was an AD&D (i.e. 1st Edition) thing. Only ever played 1e a couple of times, and played 2e a lot but never psionics, so I wouldn't know.

Nevertheless, psionic combat rules were so cumbersome in 3.0 that it probably felt like 10 rounds had passed when you'd only actually played one round. :smalltongue:

[Analytica]

I think this is actually from 2nd Ed Complete Psionics Handbook. IIRC there was indeed a separate mindscape combat round, and then some hassle with a 3-step process to open up the opponent's mind. There is something about "attack modes" allowing multiple steps against an opponent each round. That is probably where this person got this from.

Needless to say, 3.5 psionics are vastly easier.

[Tyndmyr]

Basically, if anything involves an infinite loop....ban it. Boom, psionics is now balanced. This holds true for anything else, too, of course. It's not like you can't get infinite loops in vancian casting. It's just that no sane DM is ever going to allow them, and they generally take a great deal of effort and cheese to pull off.

Psionics is only considered overpowered due to history(2nd ed strangeness) and unfamiliarity. It's good, sure, but no more powerful than vancian casting.

[Optimystik]

He might be referring to "psionic combat", the set of rules governing two psionic creatures battling each others' minds. It's been a long time since I read the 2e psionics rules, but there might have been something in there about it happening faster than physical battles. That whole concept was, thankfully, dropped in 3.5.

Psionic Combat was fixed in Hyperconscious (Mindscape Battle), and made quite flavorful as well. As your psionic avatar does battle with that of your enemy (or enemies), you gain bonuses that carry over to your real-world combat with them, such as bonuses to AC, saves, tumble checks and even PP drain.

Rather than it being a whole separate dimension of combat, it's just an opposed check made by all the psionicists within 60 feet of each other, repeated each round.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I can confirm that the 10:1 rounds thing is from 1e. In 1e, every round is broken up into 10 segments (1 segment = 6 seconds, 1 round = 1 minute, 1 turn = 10 minutes), and while your actions generally took 1 round (hence the synonym of "melee round") some things could act faster than a round (such as surprise giving you a few extra segments instead of a surprise round, flying creatures taking up a few segments to make turns, weapon speed making attacks come in at different segments, and so on). The psionic combat system, as the OP's DM recalls, worked on segments rather than rounds, so you could attack and defend psionically 10 times as fast.

The best way to handle this is, quite simply, to tell the DM "While you're right about AD&D, it sounds like you have no experience at all with the XPH psionics system, so before you complain about it being broken, read it. AD&D psionics were pretty much broken, true, but 3e psionics work completely differently, so forget everything you know about AD&D psionics and come to the XPH with an open mind."

[gallagher]

come to the XPH with an open mind." risking distracting from the true conversation going on, i would like to point out this hilarious and unintentional pun

[Optimystik]

risking distracting from the true conversation going on, i would like to point out this hilarious and unintentional pun

Oh-ho. I totally missed that. :smallamused:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

risking distracting from the true conversation going on, i would like to point out this hilarious and unintentional pun

What do you mean, "unintentional"? :smallbiggrin:

[Aotrs Commander]

AD&D psionics were pretty much broken, true, but 3e 3.5 psionics work completely differently, so forget everything you know about AD&D psionics and come to the XPH with an open mind."

Normally, I wouldn't correct people, but that is an important distinction that needs to be made 3.0; psionics were pretty terrible; it was only the XPH that made them the superlative system they are now.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Normally, I wouldn't correct people, but that is an important distinction that needs to be made 3.0; psionics were pretty terrible; it was only the XPH that made them the superlative system they are now.

I usually see 3e used to refer to the current/final state of the edition including only the 3.0 material that's still 3.5 legal, as opposed to 3.0/3.5 specifically, so that wouldn't include PsiH. I was careful to specify the XPH psionics system, though.

[Aotrs Commander]

I usually see 3e used to refer to the current/final state of the edition including only the 3.0 material that's still 3.5 legal, as opposed to 3.0/3.5 specifically, so that wouldn't include PsiH. I was careful to specify the XPH psionics system, though.

True, but when trying to convert the uninitiated, the more we can avoid the 3.0 psionics *shudder* the better...!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I think this is actually from 2nd Ed Complete Psionics Handbook. IIRC there was indeed a separate mindscape combat round, and then some hassle with a 3-step process to open up the opponent's mind. There is something about "attack modes" allowing multiple steps against an opponent each round. That is probably where this person got this from.
It’s been awhile since played 2e psionics, but I think I remember it well enough to clarify here.

First of all, there was no separate round. Using psionic powers, even attack powers still took actions.

There was a 3-step thing with accessing an opponents’s mind, though. If an character did not have his mind open to telepathic contact, you would need to use psionic attacks to force the mind open. Three successful attacks were required to open up the mind. If I remember correctly, you could make two psionic attacks per round, at least for the purpose of establishing mental contact. That is the closest you could get to extra “psionic rounds.” But then it was really only modeling the multiple attacks per round that Warrior classes could get to begin with, so it wasn’t really special anyway.

Of course, I think most of that changed under the Player’s Option psionics rules, anyway. So that only holds if we’re going with the Complete Psionics Handbook version.