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View Full Version : Build Help/Challenge: Vow of Poverty Unarmed Swordsage Swashbuckler



Talbot
2010-07-18, 12:15 AM
So I've got a pretty good character concept, and I know roughly what I want to do with it, but I haven't quite hammered out the specifics. Those of you wise in the ways of Op-Fu, please help me get as much of what I want out of it as I can.

The build MUST have:
*3 Levels of Swashbuckler, ideally as the first three levels.
*Some means of using Int instead of Wis for as much Swordsage stuff as possible (I assume either Kung Fu Genius or Carmedine Monk, but maybe there's something else out there I'm not aware of)
*As many levels of Swordsage (or prestiges listed below) as you can squeeze in.
*Vow of Poverty, although ideally not until level 6 at the earliest, though no later than level 12.
*Must be fun/playable throughout
*Feats: Shadow Blade, Knowledge Devotion
*Skills: Lots of skillpoints, and as much access to Diplomacy and the various Knowledges as you can get without stinky cheese

Now, that part is easy enough. What's tricky is tacking on all the goodies I want. In order of importance:
* 16+ base attack
* At least 3 9th level maneuvers (preferably more)
* Good access to the non-Swordsage disciplines
* Feat: Educated, Keen Intellect, Snap Kick
* Prestige Classes: I'd love some or all of the following levels: Shadow Sun Ninja (level 4), Bloodclaw Master (level 2), Master of 9 (level 5)
*Anything else fun/cool

The build must NOT have:
*Flaws or Traits
*Stinky Cheese
*Homebrew
*Arcane or Divine Spells (exception: If you come up with a really awesome way to use my favorite class (Factotum), I'll look the other way on the spells since they're technically SLAs).

Whoever comes up with the most fun/exciting build gets three internets. And my loyalty if there's ever a Civil War itP.

dspeyer
2010-07-18, 08:38 AM
This build's bane is feats. Mo9 requires 5. You've requested 4. There may be more that you want (e.g. for class skills). A normal character has 7. Human and fighter each get you one, so:

Human Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 1 / Swordsage 11 / Mo9 5 works (assuming you don't mind taking Knowledge Devotion and Shadow Blade at levels 15 and 18).

It's a little ambigous, but unarmed swordsage might give you improved unarmed strike (one of the Mo9 prereqs). It looses you armor, and looks a little weird if you plan to fight with a weapon. Also, Warblade 5 gives you improved initiative.

You could try:

Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 1 / Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Warblade 11 / Mo9 5
or even
Urban Ranger 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Warblade 11 / Mo9 5

This gives you good starting skills, some feat flexibility, 18 BAB and warblade recovery as a Mo9. It only gets you 2 9ths level maneuvers, though.

Talbot
2010-07-18, 01:11 PM
This build's bane is feats. Mo9 requires 5. You've requested 4. There may be more that you want (e.g. for class skills). A normal character has 7. Human and fighter each get you one, so:

Human Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 1 / Swordsage 11 / Mo9 5 works (assuming you don't mind taking Knowledge Devotion and Shadow Blade at levels 15 and 18).

It's a little ambigous, but unarmed swordsage might give you improved unarmed strike (one of the Mo9 prereqs). It looses you armor, and looks a little weird if you plan to fight with a weapon. Also, Warblade 5 gives you improved initiative.

You could try:

Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 1 / Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Warblade 11 / Mo9 5
or even
Urban Ranger 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Warblade 11 / Mo9 5

This gives you good starting skills, some feat flexibility, 18 BAB and warblade recovery as a Mo9. It only gets you 2 9ths level maneuvers, though.

That one spends a lot more time in Warblade than Swordsage, and I'd like Swordsage to be the core of the build.


Currently leaning towards:

Swashbuckler 3/Full BAB class 1/Unarmed Swordsage X/ Prestiges X

Or, alternatively: Swashbuckler 3/Full BAB class 5/ Unarmed Swordsage X/Prestige X

playswithfire
2010-07-18, 07:02 PM
Well, this isn't quite what you want since it has no VoP, but it does have BAB 16, 4 9th level maneuvers and good access to all disciplines except Iron Heart.

swashbuckler finesse, feat[dodge]
swashbuckler
swashbuckler feat[init]
swordsage weapon focus, improved unamred strike
swordsage
swordsage feat[adaptive style]
swordsage
swordsage
crusader feat[blind-fight]
master of 9
swordsage
master of 9 feat[Kung Fu Genius]
swordsage
eternal blade
master of 9 feat[Shadow Blade]
eternal blade
master of 9
eternal blade feat[Knowledge Devotion]
swordsage
master of 9

back to the drawing board to see if I can do a good VoP one

PId6
2010-07-18, 07:09 PM
*Some means of using Int instead of Wis for as much Swordsage stuff as possible (I assume either Kung Fu Genius or Carmedine Monk, but maybe there's something else out there I'm not aware of)
That's impossible to get RAW and will require some homebrew. Neither of those feats work for swordsage; they only work with monk.

Talbot
2010-07-18, 09:05 PM
That's impossible to get RAW and will require some homebrew. Neither of those feats work for swordsage; they only work with monk.

I feel like most DMs will probably allow them for an unarmed swordsage though, as they modify the same class feature as on a monk. It's no different than using Craven for a Factotum or Sneak Attacking PrC.

As far as level nines go, if it helps, I'm not particularly interested in the ones from Tiger Claw (although I do love one of its level eights), Setting Sun, or White Raven.

I'd also prefer to be human, but it's not necessarily a deal breaker.

Yorrin
2010-07-18, 10:43 PM
I've always been a fan of Shadow Sun Ninja's flavor, despite it feeling faily weak until its capstone. Regardless, I'll toss in my SSN build.

This build assumes that your Unarmed Swordsage gives you Imp. Unarmed Strike for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. If it doesn't then replace knowledge devotion or educated. I'm also going under the assumption that Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk don't work for a Swordsage, though there's an argument to be made that they work for SSN. Again, Knowledge Devotion/Educated would be the feat to replace, rearranging other feats as needed if you have to wait until SSN level to take it (consult your DM).

Human
Swashbuckler 3/Barbarian 1/Swordsage 12/Shadow Sun Ninja 4

Feats:
1- Educated
1- Knowledge Devotion
3- Sacred Vow
6- Shadow Blade
9- Vow of Poverty
12- Superior Unarmed Strike
15- Snap Kick
18- Travel Devotion (Or Extra Rage, if you're into that... but really, Travel Devotion is great even without Turn Undead to burn on it.)

VoP Bonus Feats:
10- Nymph's Kiss
12- Touch of Golden Ice
14- Righteous Wrath
16- Servant of the Heavens
18- Nimbus of Light
20- Lliira's Blessing (PGtF)

Grab pounce from the Barbarian, since you will be doing that every now and then. It's not the most OMGUBERXORZ build, but Touch of Golden Ice is going to be fun when you get it, and by the end you're a pretty competent combatant even when you're not using martial maneuver strikes. On the down side- you only get one 9th lvl maneuver and it has to be either Shadow hand or Setting Sun.

If nothing else I think you should at least look into Touch of Golden Ice as one of your first bonus feats. It's the best part about mixing VoP with an unarmed swordsage.

dspeyer
2010-07-19, 12:07 AM
That one spends a lot more time in Warblade than Swordsage, and I'd like Swordsage to be the core of the build.


True, getting 5 levels in warblade means using it as the core. Once you're into Mo9, though, it'll feel pretty swordsagish. Just more powerful.



Or, alternatively: Swashbuckler 3/Full BAB class 5/ Unarmed Swordsage X/Prestige X

This doesn't get 9th level maneuvers.



Swashbuckler 3/Full BAB class 1/Unarmed Swordsage X/ Prestiges X


This is the straightforward approach. Just count your feats.

Another thought occurs to me: a single level in cobra-path monk gains both IUS and dodge. It also gets you the AC. Not useful if you want a lot of unarmed swordsage, but otherwise....

Talbot
2010-07-19, 12:37 AM
I like it. Another option I was considering (although I miss out on the base attack):

1- Swashbuckler
2- Swashbuckler
3- Swashbuckler
4- Unarmed Swordsage
5- Unarmed Swordsage
6- Unarmed Swordsage
7- Unarmed Swordsage
8- Unarmed Swordsage
9- Unarmed Swordsage
10- Master of 9
11- Master of 9
12- Master of 9
13- Master of 9
14- Master of 9
15- Uncanny Trickster
16- Uncanny Trickster
17- Uncanny Trickster
18- Unarmed Swordsage
19- Unarmed Swordsage
20- Unarmed Swordsage

The problem with this build (besides base attack) is feat-starving... I'd either have to take flaws or live without some of the good feats (especially since I'd need Martial Study at 18 to get the level 9 from Devoted Spirit). The build gives me 10 feats total (2 from classes, 7 normal, 1 from being human), but
I'd need/want:
Educated
Kung Fu Genius
Blindfight
Dodge
Improved Unarmed Strike
Weapon Finesse
Improved Initiative
Adaptive Style
Knowledge Devotion
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Martial Study
Shadow Blade

... which leaves me three short. There's a chance (not a good one) I could persuade a DM to let me use VoP feats on non-Exalted feats, but shy of that I seem to be out of luck. I suppose I could live without the Educated/Knowledge Devotion combo, but then I'm sill left giving up either Shadow Blade or the Devoted Spirit level 9.


The upside of the build is that it should let me get all six level nines that I want, as long as I understand Uncanny Trickster properly.

It seems to be more or less impossible to get most of what I want without either compromising the character concept or resorting to stinky cheese...