Deadly Dancer: New Race (PEACH)

[Matar]

This is, uh, the first time I've ever home brewed something. So I'm sure it must be broken as all hell. I would greatly appreciate any and all critiquing.


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96070.jpg

Deadly Dancer:

Type: Aberration

Racial adjustments: +2 dex, -2 Wisdom

Deadly Dancers are unnaturally graceful, however there alien nature and harsh physical needs takes a toll on their psyche.

Medium Size: As Medium creatures, Deadly Dancers have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Base land speed: 60 Feet

Favored Class: Dancer (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Dancer_(Class))

Appendage Blades: : A deadly dancer's appendage blades count as both natural and light weapons for the purpose of wielding them (thus, they are automatically proficient), giving them both the benefits and penalties/negatives of being natural weapons, and only the benefits of being light weapons. If they do not attack with their appendage blades on their first attack with a weapon that requires hands during their turn in a round* then they cannot count as light weapons for the rest of their attacks made in a turn. They still count as light weapons for the purpose of attacks of opportunity made with them and class features.

They are unable to use items, weapons or shields that require hands as these body slots are permanently occupied by their Appendage Blades. The hand slots of a deadly dancer can never be made unoccupied, even through successful disarm or sunder checks made against appendage blades.

*Appendage blades fulfill this category of weaponry. Thus the first attack with such weapons needs to be the appendage blades for them to count as light weapons during the creature's turn.

Appendage Blades = 1d6 + Str Slashing or Piercing damage, 18-20/x3.

Along with this, a Deadly Dancer's blades makes it impossible to do finer intricate movements. It is impossible for them to peform such actions as applying bandages or reloading a crossbow. You must have invested 6 ranks into Sleight of Hand to perform basic functions, such as turning a door knob or lifting a box. You need to invest at least 10 ranks in Sleight of Hand for performing finesse movements, such as tying a simple knot, donning armor, or holding particularly small objects such as a quill.

Finer intricate movements that include such actions as applying bandages, sewing, and reloading a crossbow.

Finally, because of there strange limbs, a Deadly Dancers is unable to cast spells with somatic components.

Mute: Deadly Dancers are unable to speak, and thus may not cast spells or use abilities with verbal components.

Blade Hunger: A Deadly Dancer does not eat like a normal creature. Once every week they must coat all four blades in blood. If they fail to do so they take 2d6 nonlethal damage every day thereafter as they starve to death. This damage may not be cured by healing magic, nor resisted by any means. Only be feeding may this damage be cured. Once fed, this damage is instantly healed.

Deathly Dancer: Deadly Dancers gain a +4 racial bonus to all Perform (Dance) checks. They also gain a +4 racial bonus to Balance while taking a -4 racial penalty to Climb.

Languages: The Dance, Common

Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).

LA: 0

---

Feats:

Precision Limbs

Precision Limbs [Racial]

You thought you had seen it all. Today in the Circus you were proven wrong. Honestly, a jugging Dancer? Who'd have thought.

Prerequisites: 15 Dexterity, Deadly Dancer

Benefits: You no longer need to pass a Slight of Hand check for handling larger objects (Such as opening doors or moving boxes). With a Slight of Hand check VS a DC of 10 you may handle fine objects (Pens, Feathers, wrapping bandages, etc). If doing so is linked to a certain skill you must roll this check once you are finished with the task, if you fail then the task you were attempting also fails. For example, if you're attempting to wrap bandages you must pass the Heal check and the Slight of Hand Check in order to be successful.

Furthermore, your skill with precise applications of your Appendage Blades carries over to your fighting style. When you attack with your Appendage Blades you may choose to have some or all of your attacks deal piercing damage.

Normal: You must pass a Slight of Hand check of 10 in order to handle larger objects. You may not handle fine objects. Your Appendage Blades are only capable of dealing clashing damage.

Eldritch Waltz

Eldritch Waltz[Racial]

Bone on steel is your voice. You're twisting flesh the symbols. Now and forever, you are magic and blade.

Prerequisites: 13 Dexterity, Spellcraft 8, Deadly Dancer

Benefits: By moving a minimum of five feet and unencumbered you are capable of casting spells with somatic components. Furthermore, so long as you move on or next to a hard surface (Stone, Metal, Bone, Ice. Not dirt, sand, or water) you are capable of casting spells with Verbal components, so long as you have 12 or more ranks in Slight of Hand and Spellcraft.

Finally, you gain a +1 DC bonus for all spells you cast with a somatic component.

Normal: You are unable to cast spell with somatic and verbal components.

I have a list of feats that I hope to type up as well. Here they are, in order.


Blade Magic: May use your Appendage Blades for Swordmage (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Swordmage) Incantations. Also, you replace your damage bonus from strength with your charisma.

I don't have those written up yet. It's just an idea, that's all.

[EdroGrimshell]

This is, uh, the first time I've ever home brewed something. So I'm sure it must be broken as all hell. I would greatly appreciate any and all critiquing.

Deadly Dancer: Type becomes Aberration.

Racial adjustments: +2 dex, -2 Wisdom

Deadly Dancers are unnaturally graceful, however there alien nature and harsh physical needs takes a toll on their psyche.

Medium Size: As Medium creatures, Deadly Dancers have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Base land speed: 60 Feet

Languages: The Dance, Common

Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).

Favored Class: Dancer (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Dancer_(Class))

Appendage Blades: A Deadly Dancer automatically loses any proficiencies with weapons that it has, and may not gain any by any means. A Deadly Dancer is automatically proficient with their Appendage Blades, which deal 1d6+0.5 Strength damage and have a critical range of 18-20x3.

When attacking you may choose to attack with two Appendage Blades. You make this attack as if you had Improved Two Weapon Fighting, with your second Appendage Blade being treated as a light weapon. By taking a -5 penalty to all attacks this round you may attack with a third Appendage Blade. This attack is made with the same attack bonus as your offhand weapon, albeit with a -5 penalty.

Along with this, a Deadly Dancers blades makes it impossible to do finer movements. It is impossible for them to hold a pin or apply bandages, for example. For precise movement with larger objects, such as turns a doorknob or holding a cup requires a Slight of Hand check with a DC of ten. Failure results in having to try again next round until you pass the check. If you were trying to lift an object and failed the check you drop it.

Finally, because of there strange limbs, a Deadly Dancers is unable to cast spells with somatic components.

Mute: Deadly Dancers are unable to speak, and thus may not cast spells or use ability with verbal components.

Blade Hunger: A Deadly Dancer does not eat like a normal creature. Once every week they must coat all four blades in blood. They are treated as if starving and thirsty, taking 2d6 nonlethal damage for every day they do not coat their Appendage Blades in blood. This damage may not be cured by any means, the only way to remove it is to coat their Appendage Blades.

Uncanny Dodge: As per the feat.

Deathly Dancer: Deadly Dancers gain a +4 inherent bonus to all Perform (Dance) checks.

LA:+? I'm trying to go for +0 or +1 tops. I'm more then willing to remove some feats (Maybe Uncanny Dodge?) in order to do so.

I have a list of feats that I hope to type up as well. Here they are, in order.



I don't have those written up yet. It's just an idea, that's all.

Augmented Critical and Uncanny dodge make it impossible for this to be LA 0 or +1, i'd have to say, at least, +2, the only reason i don't say higher is because it becomes very hard for them to cast spells.

[Matar]

I'll remove Uncanny Dodge then.

Also, what do you think of the base speed? It's the same as the creature in ToM, but I think it might be too high. Should I lower it to, say, 40?

Also, while the weapon is strong it's the only weapon they can use. I may want to add a line about them not being able to use a shield as well...

[Milskidasith]

The inability to do anything but be one class makes this race really poor. I'm not certain it's weak, but it's certainly bad design to have a creature be unable to effectively use held items, fight, cast spells, speak, or go around without brutally murdering things and bathing in blood.

In short: Get rid of the forced use of appendage blades, the muteness, the inability to pick up items, and the requirement you bathe yourself in blood instead of eating. All of those serve no purpose besides making this something you can only take with your dancer class, and if you use weapons with the dancer class, it's probably worse at that as well since the appendage blades are really weak.

EDIT: The weapon isn't strong; it costs a ton to be enhanced, doesn't allow as much strength bonus as normal TWF, and has poor base damage. It has a higher critical than normal, sure, but I don't think that makes up for losing all the other potential goodies you can get (Reach, improved trip/disarm/sunder/whatever, decent damage dice, the ability to use more of your strength bonus, not requiring a huge feat investment just to get a decent full attack, etc.)

[Owrtho]

First here
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96070.jpg

Well, I'm not sure how powerful the movement speed is, so I'll leave it as is for now.

Racial adjustments make sense.

Favoured class should mention one of the core classes for those who don't want to include the Dancer class.

Appendage blades seem fine for damage. Not sure if the critical is overpowering. I might suggest having them count as mechanical weapons for being enchanted and the like (that or make them able to be enhanced as both mechanical or natural weapons). Also would suggest clearing up the weapon proficiencies (as you say they can't be proficient with weapons then say they are with this. Wording should be fixed).
If you make them count as manufactured weapons for attacks, then perhaps let them take the multiweapon fighting feat for if they want to attack with 3 blades.
You should also point out they can't be disarmed or have their blades broken.
Don't automatically give them improved two weapon fighting, and make all the blades count as light weapons.
Specify if they can use shields or not (it currently is somewhat unclear)


Mute might be troublesome. I suggest giving them some form of communication though otherwise it will be annoying for the players. Perhaps a dancing language that requires they move at least 5 feet and needs a line of sight, but can be understood by most other races due to the gestures (or require that the other races need to have learned it themselves if you want to be mean, but I suggest the former. Perhaps make a perform check (on dancer's part) and sense motive check (on viewers part) required to get the point across if viewer doesn't know the language). They also should still have a language list as they should be able to read and hear languages even if they can't speak them.

Blade hunger is unclear. Do they need to feed every day or every week. Do they heal immediately upon feeding or do they just become capable of being healed.

I might suggest taking uncanny dodge out if you want to lower the LA.

The perform (dance) bonus doesn't seem too strong.
Also, seems like they might have a bonus to balance checks based on the picture, and possibly a penalty to climb.

Owrtho

[Matar]

In short: Get rid of the forced use of appendage blades, the muteness, the inability to pick up items, and the requirement you bathe yourself in blood instead of eating. All of those serve no purpose besides making this something you can only take with your dancer class, and if you use weapons with the dancer class, it's probably worse at that as well since the appendage blades are really weak.

Hrm. I figured as much for the weapon, honestly. However, that's sorta part of the race. Their arms and legs are swords. What to do...

Maybe make it so their off-hand attack has no penalty? Also, if they choose to add two attacks they only take a -5 instead of a -7 to all attacks that round? That sounds better.

For the feeding thing. Well, you can go longer then normal people without starving. And getting "food" is real easy. Just... kill something. Or bottle some blood. Or even get an ally to drain off some of there blood and have a cleric heal him. I don't see it being that big of an issue.


EDIT: The weapon isn't strong; it costs a ton to be enhanced, doesn't allow as much strength bonus as normal TWF, and has poor base damage. It has a higher critical than normal, sure, but I don't think that makes up for losing all the other potential goodies you can get (Reach, improved trip/disarm/sunder/whatever, decent damage dice, the ability to use more of your strength bonus, not requiring a huge feat investment just to get a decent full attack, etc.)

Why wouldn't you be able to Sunder/Trip/Disarm/Full Attack with them? Am I missing some sort of rule that wouldn't allow that? I mean, you lose reach but your also really fast.

Mind you, I do see your point though. What do you think of my idea to add a feat that lets you enchant each one of your Appendage Blades?

-Edit: Ninja'd by Ort. Reading your post noa dude.

[Owrtho]

The inability to do anything but be one class makes this race really poor. I'm not certain it's weak, but it's certainly bad design to have a creature be unable to effectively use held items, fight, cast spells, speak, or go around without brutally murdering things and bathing in blood.

Thought I'd point out that the race is based on a monster from Tomb of Magic.


In short: Get rid of the forced use of appendage blades, the muteness, the inability to pick up items, and the requirement you bathe yourself in blood instead of eating. All of those serve no purpose besides making this something you can only take with your dancer class, and if you use weapons with the dancer class, it's probably worse at that as well since the appendage blades are really weak.

Most of that is from the monster this is a conversion of. Biggest issue would likely be the blood bathing, but that could be circumvented in various ways. I already addressed the muteness above. The blades are part of the class. I'll also point out that given their base critical range, the improved critical feat would give them from 15-20, over a 1 in 4 chance (provided they can confirm it). On top of that they can attack with 3 of them and it has a x3 damage critical.


EDIT: The weapon isn't strong; it costs a ton to be enhanced, doesn't allow as much strength bonus as normal TWF, and has poor base damage. It has a higher critical than normal, sure, but I don't think that makes up for losing all the other potential goodies you can get (Reach, improved trip/disarm/sunder/whatever, decent damage dice, the ability to use more of your strength bonus, not requiring a huge feat investment just to get a decent full attack, etc.)

Don't see why they can't get most of the improved ______ feats. As for reach, I'd suggest a feat that lets the blade dance hold some amount of movement to increase their threat range for attack of opportunities though it would case them to move when making said attack (either without provoking attacks of opportunity itself, or having another feat that makes it not provoke one). Given that it is a dancer that has blades for limbs, I could see it 'dancing' around the field attacking opponents.

Owrtho

[Matar]

Also would suggest clearing up the weapon proficiencies (as you say they can't be proficient with weapons then say they are with this. Wording should be fixed).


How about this:

A Deadly Dancer is automatically proficient with there Appendage Blade. They are unable to become proficient with any other type of weapon, no matter the means (Class feature, feat, etc). Their Appendage Blades deal 1d6+0.5 Strength damage and have a critical range of 18-20x3.


If you make them count as manufactured weapons for attacks, then perhaps let them take the multiweapon fighting feat for if they want to attack with 3 blades.

That's what the -5 to attacks for an extra attack was for. Maybe I should make it so that they take no penalty for wielding both weapons, but take a -5 to AB for all attacks if they use their 3rd attack?


You should also point out they can't be disarmed or have their blades broken.

Will do.


Specify if they can use shields or not (it currently is somewhat unclear)

Will do. I'll toss in a line somewhere about how they can't use shields.


Don't automatically give them improved two weapon fighting, and make all the blades count as light weapons.

Are you sure? Remember, they are limited to one weapon that doesn't have range. They also can't use shields or have magic weapons without a feat investment. From what I can tell it's too weak.


Blade hunger is unclear. Do they need to feed every day or every week. Do they heal immediately upon feeding or do they just become capable of being healed.

How about this:

A Deadly Dancer does not eat like a normal creature. Once every week they must coat all four blades in blood. If they fail to do so they take 2d6 nonlethal damage every day as they starve to death. This damage may not be cured by any means, but is instantly healed once they manage to feed themselves.


Mute might be troublesome. I suggest giving them some form of communication though otherwise it will be annoying for the players. Perhaps a dancing language that requires they move at least 5 feet and needs a line of sight, but can be understood by most other races due to the gestures (or require that the other races need to have learned it themselves if you want to be mean, but I suggest the former. Perhaps make a perform check (on dancer's part) and sense motive check (on viewers part) required to get the point across if viewer doesn't know the language). They also should still have a language list as they should be able to read and hear languages even if they can't speak them.

That's what “The Dance” is in languages. I just haven't written anything up about it yet is all. I'll do so, yes.


Also, seems like they might have a bonus to balance checks based on the picture, and possibly a penalty to climb.

Good point. Maybe a +4 and a -2 penalty?


On top of that they can attack with 3 of them and it has a x3 damage critical.

With a large penalty to their AB, of course.

[Makiru]

First of all, I'm very happy to see this being made, as I am a big fan of the Deadly Dancer, and I always thought that it would make an interesting player race.

Second, cracking open my ToM, it seems that the DD applies its full Strength modifier to its attacks, instead of 0.5. As far as I am aware, attacks are usually full Strength for one-handed and 1.5 for two-handed, so giving it full Strength with the appendage blades shouldn't be enough to bump up LA by any amount.

The speed can probably stay at 60, since it really doesn't have much else going for it with the lack of hands. Also, I recall there being a feat in Planar Handbook that let somebody cast with the limb motions and sounds native to their form, which was made mostly for the buoman so they could cast with their moans. That feat and Eschew Materials makes a caster DD extremely viable, with the only caveat being the inability to use costly components.

The lacking of hands and blood feeding, in my opinion, should stay due to being flavorful limitations to be roleplayed around, just like any other monstrous character. Muteness could be lessened to only being unable to speak a language, but not unable to create sounds. I assume they have to breathe in some method, probably through the same pores they take in blood, so logic (cue one dead cat) makes me think they can produce a sound in that method. I suggest this mostly because having someone play a completely mute character, even if the player would normally not speak much, would be a very boring experience. The ability to react in an audible way, even if not understandable, adds much more depth to the character.

Overall, I think this is allright, obviously not a high-tier race, but an interesting choice, nonetheless.

[Milskidasith]

What I meant by saying they can't do all the specialized combat actions is that they do not have a bonus to it like many weapons do.

[Owrtho]

A Deadly Dancer is automatically proficient with there Appendage Blade. They are unable to become proficient with any other type of weapon, no matter the means (Class feature, feat, etc). Their Appendage Blades deal 1d6+0.5 Strength damage and have a critical range of 18-20x3.

That seems to work.


That's what the -5 to attacks for an extra attack was for. Maybe I should make it so that they take no penalty for wielding both weapons, but take a -5 to AB for all attacks if they use their 3rd attack?

You should state they count as manufactured weapons and not natural attacks. Then just say that you can use two (which counts as duel wielding weapons) or 3 (which counts as wielding 3 weapons). Specifically note they can take the multi-weapon fighting feat. Also specifically mention they count as light weapons. This would also apply for feats like weapon finesse.


Are you sure? Remember, they are limited to one weapon that doesn't have range. They also can't use shields or have magic weapons without a feat investment. From what I can tell it's too weak.

If you mention they count as manufactured weapons, then they can be enchanted like any other weapon (as in with spells like magic weapon). You can also state they can be enchanted like natural weapons (so spells like magic fang would also work on it). I'll also point out they should have a range of 5'. If they don't then you need to stand in the same square as the opponent.


A Deadly Dancer does not eat like a normal creature. Once every week they must coat all four blades in blood. If they fail to do so they take 2d6 nonlethal damage every day as they starve to death. This damage may not be cured by any means, but is instantly healed once they manage to feed themselves.

That's better.


That's what “The Dance” is in languages. I just haven't written anything up about it yet is all. I'll do so, yes.

Missed the languages being at the top. Usually they are at the bottom.


Good point. Maybe a +4 and a -2 penalty?

Seems to work, though I'd likely make the penalty -4, not sure how that would be with balance.


With a large penalty to their AB, of course.

It isn't that big. If they count as light weapons, then they have a -4 to primary hand and a -8 to both off hands. If they then take multiweapon fighting it becomes -2 to all hands. If they took improved two weapon fighting, they would then gain a fourth attack at -5, and if they took greater two weapon fighting they would gain a fifth attack at -10.
-2 is hardly a large penalty to AB, but I'm also not saying there needs to be one.


Also, likely should add strength bonus as normal for weapon damage.

And Makiru, miking sounds can be done just by banging on something or the like. The deadly dancer doesn't need to be able to gasp or exclaim without words. Also, it seems like the idea of it dancing to convey its message would be able work just as well and be more thematically appropriate.

Also a suggestion for the dance language mechanics:
The language of dance can be used to convey messages that almost anyone can understand if the dancer is skilled. Using the language of dance requires that the dancer move at least 5 feet during the round. Those watching may make a DC 30 sense motive check to interpret the message of the dancer (those that know the language of dance automatically succeed). The dancer must also make a perform (dance) check. For every 2 points by which they exceed 10, the DC of the sense motive check is reduced by 1. They may take a 10 any time they could normally take a 10 a perform check.

Also would give the deadly dancer the ability to always take a 10 when using the language of dance.

Owrtho

[Makiru]

All I meant was that sometimes it's harder to describe your reaction by way of interpretive dance when a minute sound would suffice. It would be a player issue more so than a character one.

[Matar]

Made some of the changes we went over. What do you think now? Also.


Also a suggestion for the dance language mechanics:
The language of dance can be used to convey messages that almost anyone can understand if the dancer is skilled. Using the language of dance requires that the dancer move at least 5 feet during the round. Those watching may make a DC 30 sense motive check to interpret the message of the dancer (those that know the language of dance automatically succeed). The dancer must also make a perform (dance) check. For every 2 points by which they exceed 10, the DC of the sense motive check is reduced by 1. They may take a 10 any time they could normally take a 10 a perform check.

I'm not sure if that's necessary. The Dance is basically a language based on movement, without knowing it then understanding a Deadly Dancer would be very difficult to do. Nothing stops them from writing in the dirt, tapping out Morse code, or communicating with telepathy or something.

Once we get the race working nicely I'll write up some feats I suppose.

[Owrtho]

The changes seem better for the most part. A few things:
You forgot to mention they can't use shields. I suggest putting that with where you say they can't use other weapons (just tack on or shields).
Also in thinking about it after getting some sleep, you should also say something like 'unless they gain new natural weapons or limbs capable of using them' in case the player decides to do something like take the deepspawn feat or get a graft.

On the bathe in blood, you should probably put:

Blade Hunger: A Deadly Dancer does not eat like a normal creature. Once every week they must coat all four blades in blood. If they fail to do so they take 2d6 nonlethal damage every day thereafter as they starve to death. This damage may not be cured only by by the Deadly Dancer feeding itself, at which point is instantly heals.
to make it a little more clear.

Just say that the type is aberration, not that it changes to it. They didn't have a starting race to begin with. Most races also would mention size with the type so it would look like:
Size & Type: The Deadly Dancer is a medium aberration.

You still need to mention a standard favoured class. I'd suggest ranger or rouge. The first has the two -weapon fighting tree, and later learns to cast spells like magic fang (so they can buff themselves), rouges could benefit from the balance check and just seems to fit for some reason.

Also, I happen to have the opposite opinion of the language of dance. It is based on movement, and as such would be easier to understand without knowing it. Much the same way you can tell the story of a ballet despite it not having any words. Being based in movement, you just have to make out what it's gesturing to or pantomiming, as opposed to figuring out arbitrarily assigned noises. The down side of course is that it requires a line of sight. As such you can't use it to talk to someone in another room or the like (though on the plus side they wouldn't be able to eavesdrop from the other room either). It would also either have no written language, or it would be maps of dance steps (the former is likely the better choice).
Also, while it may be true that they can still communicate in other methods, I'll point out that morris code would be a language (and as such require all the other characters learn it as well for it to be of use), and telepathy would require being telepathic (which the Deadly Dancer is not).
I would suggest however making the lowest that the perform check can reduce it to be 10, as there are some people who would have trouble figuring it out no matter how skilled the dancer.

Owrtho

[Matar]

On the bathe in blood, you should probably put:

Done and done.


You forgot to mention they can't use shields. I suggest putting that with where you say they can't use other weapons (just tack on or shields).
Also in thinking about it after getting some sleep, you should also say something like 'unless they gain new natural weapons or limbs capable of using them' in case the player decides to do something like take the deepspawn feat or get a graft.

I added on that they are not proficient. I think I should add something on that explains what type of equipment they can use. Sorta like what a beholder has in Lords of Madness. They have no fingers, so they can't use rings for example.

I just need to think of a way to word it. Imma crack open LoM later on to figure it out.


You still need to mention a standard favoured class. I'd suggest ranger or rouge. The first has the two -weapon fighting tree, and later learns to cast spells like magic fang (so they can buff themselves), rouges could benefit from the balance check and just seems to fit for some reason.

This is a personal prefrence more then again. I'm big on the whole "Support the works of other homebrewers". I could add on an alternative favored class for those not using ToB or the Dancer homebrew, if you think I should.

So the favored class would still be dancer, but at the end of everything I'll add in a line saying that you can substitute Rogue for Dancer if your not using ToB or the Dancer homebrew.

So, what do you all think now? Is it complete enough for me to start working on the feats?


Also, I happen to have the opposite opinion of the language of dance. It is based on movement, and as such would be easier to understand without knowing it.

I think this is where we have a disagreement xD. A Deadly Dancer isn't human; it has no mouth, face, visible eyes, or hands. These things really help when trying to convey a message.

Add to it that they are, by there nature, rather alien compared to humans... well, I'm not sure if it fits.

I don't think it's a big enough issue to need to change, and I don't really feel it's necessary either.

Again, if others disagree with me then I'll change it, but I don't exactly think I should.

[Owrtho]

I think this is where we have a disagreement xD. A Deadly Dancer isn't human; it has no mouth, face, visible eyes, or hands. These things really help when trying to convey a message.

Add to it that they are, by there nature, rather alien compared to humans... well, I'm not sure if it fits.

I don't think it's a big enough issue to need to change, and I don't really feel it's necessary either.

Again, if others disagree with me then I'll change it, but I don't exactly think I should.

The thing is, the face isn't that important when using gestures to convey a message. Silhouette can do a good job of conveying messages and they lack such things. While the lack of hands might reduce that some, it would only be minor. I mean, if someone gestures at an object, and pantomimes picking it up and throwing it, you can fairly easily tell they're saying something about throwing the object or throwing something at it. Based on the context and more minute actions as well as those before or after, it can be easier to figure out what they mean (compared to someone babbling in a language you've ever heard and as such can make out nothing from). The language of dance would be based around such things but in a rather more uniform and artistic fashion. As such it makes sense that others would be able to work out what they're saying.

You're also overlooking a somewhat more important issue. It sucks for players if they have no easy manner of communication. They shouldn't have to really on everyone else to take the dance language to be able to easily tell what they're saying without a written message (by no means easy to do in battle).

Owrtho

[Matar]

I admit, not being able to talk freely can be an annoyance at times, but I don't think it's an issue. Like I said, if they want to tell someone to throw something that's easy enough to show through movements. However, such movements wouldn't be nearly as complex as a language.

For example, cover your face with a bag and put oven mits on. Now try to tell someone without words or making a sound "How was your day? Mines was really awesome. I caught a fish!"

There is simply no way to convey that message with body movements in an easy to understand way. Unlike The Dance, which is more then capable of doing so.

I think that, while difficult, they have more then enough ways to communicate. Writing in the dirt, someone with telepathy, a translator for there movements, along with simple gestures should get the point across more often then not.

I mean, they can nod there head for yes. Shake it for no.Wave there arms frantically and point somewhere for enemies. Run around on fire before falling on the ground to show that a Dragon is near... so I think it should be fine.

[Owrtho]

You see, the way I see it, that would all be incorporated into the language of dance, just rather more elegant. It's true that some things would be harder to communicate, but that is why there would be sense motive/preform checks made. Also, while asking how someone's day was may be more difficult, explaining a situation or what happened would be less so. The thing is the language of dance would be a refined language based on body movement, making it better at communication than the clunky pantomimes that those who can't 'speak' it would need to make due with. Due to having been refined, it would be able to better communicate minute details and the like that might otherwise be hard.
It also has the disadvantage of being unable it get attention of someone not looking, or calling someone out of sight. It similarly can't be conveyed through spells like ghost sound like most languages. As such it can use the benefit of communicating with those who don't expressly know it in exchange.

Also, just because a player has plenty of ways they could communicate, doesn't mean that it is fine if they can't speak directly to anyone who doesn't know an obscure language that only a few are likely to know. Telepathy would require another character to have bothered taking a class with it if you don't yourself. An translator requires one of the other players to have learned the language, and to be present. Writing in the dirt requires the people be nearby, able to read (barbarians can't), and not have something else they're trying to do (not to mention being particularly ineffective in desperate situations where you need to convey a message without taking the time to stop and write it down). Gestures would all fit into the language of dance. You saying that is like saying, "the language of dance shouldn't be able to communicate through motions and gestures to people who don't know it, because the player has other ways to communicate with people, such as through motions and gestures."

Also, it would be quite a pain for players to have to explain everything they want to say in gestures, whereas with my suggestion they could just roll a die and say "roll a sense motive for DC X, if you make it you understand I'm saying '...'"

Owrtho

[Matar]

Well. I guess I can see the point in that. How about we pick a middle and say:

"You are unable to communicate complex ideas to someone unable to understand The Dance. However, it is possible to communicate basic information through innuendo and mimicry. When a Deadly Dancer tries to communicate with someone who does not understand The Dance they must roll for Perform (Dance) and beat a DC of 10. If they pass the check they are able to communicate basic ideas (Go there, big orc man, enemies everywhere). The DC to understand what's being said is a Sense Motive check of 20, which is decreased by one point for every point above 10 that the Deadly Dancers Perform (Dance) roll was, to a minimum of 10."

That is... REALLY freaking messy. Any idea how to make the wording a little more clear?

[Owrtho]

Lets try this:

"The language of dance, unlike most languages, requires a line of sight to be understood and is not limited by hearing distance. It also can be used to communicate even with those who have not learned it. In such a situation, the dancer must make a perform (dance) check of DC 10. Those watching must in turn make a DC 20 sense motive check to understand what the dancer is trying to communicate. The DC of the sense motive check is reduced by 1 for each point the dancer got above 15 on his/her perform (dance) check (this cannot reduce the sense motive check below 10)."
Then add as the last line one of the following:
"Unfortunately, the language of dance cannot be used to convey complex or obscure messages (DM's discretion) to those who do not know the language."
"If trying to convey a complex or obscure message(DM's discretion) , increase the starting DC of the sense motive check by 20."

Might also finish with a line that others who know the language can automatically understand it.

And on a side note, the Deadly Dancer likely can use rings. Just not on fingers. You'd need to use some of those spurs it has on its arms (or back/legs).

Owrtho

[imp_fireball]

As a substitute for uncanny dodge, how about mobility (as the feat) and the ability to take spring attack earlier?


Those watching must in turn make a DC 20 sense motive check to understand what the dancer is trying to communicate.

Additionally, you could make the language of dance a new language - knowing hte language means you can understand it, but not speak it. If it's specific to the deadly dancer, give it a name suitable for the race.

EDIT: Tongues spell wouldn't allow you to speak the deadly dancer's language, I don't think. Unless there's a spell that allows better dancing.

[Owrtho]

The language of dance is supposed to be a new language. Also those who bothered to learn it would be able to understand without the skill checks.
Doesn't seem to be much reason others couldn't communicate with it though. The deadly dancer does have a humanoid form aside from the blades and lack of hands/feet/face. Then again, it might have something like others who would learn it require at least x ranks in perform (dance) to actually 'speak' in it. Also you are right about the tongues spell not working with it.

Owrtho

[Glimbur]

A Deadly Dancer is automatically proficient with there Appendage Blade. They are unable to become proficient with any other type of weapon or shields, no matter the means (Class feature, feat, etc).

There is a difference between "proficient" and "able to use". A mithral light or heavy shield has an armor check penalty of 0, so there is no downside to non-proficient use compared to proficient use (ASF is the same either way). I have seen it suggested that someone use a spiked chain without proficiency in order to make trip attacks, which as touch attacks are less concerned about the -4 to hit.

Did you want them unable to use weapons and shields well, or at all?

[Matar]

There is a difference between "proficient" and "able to use". A mithral light or heavy shield has an armor check penalty of 0, so there is no downside to non-proficient use compared to proficient use (ASF is the same either way). I have seen it suggested that someone use a spiked chain without proficiency in order to make trip attacks, which as touch attacks are less concerned about the -4 to hit.

Did you want them unable to use weapons and shields well, or at all?

...That's my fault. I'm used to NeverWinter Nights where not being proficient meant just that.

Uh. How do you suggest I word it so that they can't wield any weapons/shields? I'll take another look later today. I like, just woke up xD

[For Valor]

>.>
<.<

has anyone said anything about classing w/the monk? Maybe some feats about improving weapon damage for this guy, and he can deal his monk unarmed damage + sword damage with monk attacks... or something.

[Glimbur]

...That's my fault. I'm used to NeverWinter Nights where not being proficient meant just that.

Uh. How do you suggest I word it so that they can't wield any weapons/shields? I'll take another look later today. I like, just woke up xD

Say "A Deadly Dancer is unable to use shields or weapons besides their Appendage Blades".

[Owrtho]

has anyone said anything about classing w/the monk? Maybe some feats about improving weapon damage for this guy, and he can deal his monk unarmed damage + sword damage with monk attacks... or something.

I don't think it has an unarmed attack. If you look at the picture you will see why. Then again, I suppose there could be feats to improve damage.

Also, Matar, you still need to fix type and mention size.

Owrtho

[Matar]

Say "A Deadly Dancer is unable to use shields or weapons besides their Appendage Blades".

Done and done.


has anyone said anything about classing w/the monk? Maybe some feats about improving weapon damage for this guy, and he can deal his monk unarmed damage + sword damage with monk attacks... or something.

I could make a feat that does that. Although a feat that basically goes "Take this feat to use a class" to really... lame. I'll think of something, however.


Also, Matar, you still need to fix type and mention size.

Will do will do.

-Edit: Wait, I already have that though...

[Owrtho]

A Deadly Dancer's type does not become Aberration, it is Aberration. Your wording is like that of a template where the creature may already have a type that will be changed. I missed the size part due to most races mentioning size and type in the same line.

For the monk thing, just mention that the Deadly dancer can make unarmed attacks, but they deal lethal slashing or piercing damage rather than non-lethal Bludgeoning damage, though they can choose to have it deal such if they have improved unarmed strike (via hitting with the side of the blade).

Owrtho

[imp_fireball]

has anyone said anything about classing w/the monk? Maybe some feats about improving weapon damage for this guy, and he can deal his monk unarmed damage + sword damage with monk attacks... or something.

Normally, those sorts of weapons are 'natural weapons' and don't count as 'unarmed'. But the OP can rule what they like.

If they create a feat though, it'd inevitably have no relation to a monk and probably work more in conjunction with improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite (meaning it could be taken by a monk to supplement them). I'd prefer if it didn't only just apply to the deadly dancer but all creatures with natural weapons that use full Str bonus (so not natural weapons such as bites that usually use 1/2 Str bonus).


Say "A Deadly Dancer is unable to use shields or weapons besides their Appendage Blades".

How about, shields or weapons that occupy the hands. This means they can still use weapons that are equipped in, ie., bracer slots. Also, you don't have to word that the creature is 'unusual' (which could mean anything, according to SRD).


Doesn't seem to be much reason others couldn't communicate with it though.

Well, dancing is difficult for those that suck at dancing.

Another Suggestion: Maybe the deadly dancer should be able to substitute Dex for Cha when performing dances for an audience that does not understand their language? Because when you can't understand someone, Cha doesn't help much anyway (it helps sometimes, as you might learn from listening to a foreign radio station and the subtle difference in tones of voice, but not enough to matter, I don't think) - with this of course, understanding the person changes things rather dramatically which could lead to deadly dancers being very popular among foreigners but not as much among their own.

Actually, maybe half Dex modifier as ability modifier to perform (dance) for this purpose - it's harder to convey emotions that lead towards a good performance through movements than charm.


Languages: The Dance, Common


With my suggested mechanic for their dance language, giving them common seems kind of redundant. Presenting common in the form of dance would inevitably not be common (unless they were a master linguist of epic proportions to get off each word down to the finest detail, pronounciation, enunciation, etc., through dance alone).

May as well remove common.

As for the blades, reduce the critical down to 19-20/x3, at least (I'd suggest more). If you remove some of that, you can give them something like slight build to reflect natural agility even more.

Also in return, make feats such as weapon finesse, combat expertise and improved critical easier to obtain for them.

[Owrtho]

Normally, those sorts of weapons are 'natural weapons' and don't count as 'unarmed'. But the OP can rule what they like.

If they create a feat though, it'd inevitably have no relation to a monk and probably work more in conjunction with improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite (meaning it could be taken by a monk to supplement them). I'd prefer if it didn't only just apply to the deadly dancer but all creatures with natural weapons that use full Str bonus (so not natural weapons such as bites that usually use 1/2 Str bonus).

I'll point out that the Appendage Blades count a manufactured weapons (as in normal equipped weapons) for how they attack and such. As such something that is based of natural weapons wouldn't help.


Well, dancing is difficult for those that suck at dancing.

Hence why I also suggested there be a minimum perform dance skill required for others to actually speak it.


Another Suggestion: Maybe the deadly dancer should be able to substitute Dex for Cha when performing dances for an audience that does not understand their language? Because when you can't understand someone, Cha doesn't help much anyway (it helps sometimes, as you might learn from listening to a foreign radio station and the subtle difference in tones of voice, but not enough to matter, I don't think) - with this of course, understanding the person changes things rather dramatically which could lead to deadly dancers being very popular among foreigners but not as much among their own.

Actually, maybe half Dex modifier as ability modifier to perform (dance) for this purpose - it's harder to convey emotions that lead towards a good performance through movements than charm.

It could work. Alternatively, they could just be able to substitute Dex for Cha with any perform (dance) checks.


With my suggested mechanic for their dance language, giving them common seems kind of redundant. Presenting common in the form of dance would inevitably not be common (unless they were a master linguist of epic proportions to get off each word down to the finest detail, pronounciation, enunciation, etc., through dance alone).

May as well remove common.

Not really. They have common as without it they wouldn't be able to understand other people talking to them or read common. They can't actually speak languages other than dance themselves, but they still need them to be able to understand them when used by others.


As for the blades, reduce the critical down to 19-20/x3, at least. If you remove some of that, you can give them something like slight build to reflect natural agility even more.

Seems like the higher critical range is better. They might be agile but that doesn't inherently make them better at fitting into small spaces. The slight build would do little for the flavour of them. Also, they can only use their blades, so they should be strong enough to make up for their lack of versatility.

Owrtho

[imp_fireball]

I'll point out that the Appendage Blades count a manufactured weapons (as in normal equipped weapons) for how they attack and such. As such something that is based of natural weapons wouldn't help.

There's virtually no difference between natural weapons and manufactured weapons except that natural ones are actually better (there's no off hand and you can attack with all of them at less penalty with just one feat).


doesn't inherently make them better at fitting into small spaces.

They look like contortionists in zentai suits if you ask me. :smallamused:


It could work. Alternatively, they could just be able to substitute Dex for Cha with any perform (dance) checks.


Mine considers verisimilitude though. They haven't any natural inclination towards entertaining foreigners except through dance. So their dexterity isn't a complete substitute for actual charm.


They have common as without it they wouldn't be able to understand other people talking to them or read common.

Ah, good call.


Seems like the higher critical range is better.

Very few weapons have 18-20 critical threat range, let alone x3 as well. I'm offering compensation since this part may get torn apart by other people on the thread.

[Eldan]

While the basic idea of the monster (and the race based on it) is really cool, I'd imagine that it would be fairly problematic and not really compatible with being an adventurer.

So my alternate suggestion is this: why not, instead of making the race a direct conversion of the monster, make a kind of aberration-blooded (monstrous) humanoid related to the Deadly Dancer?

My suggestion for those would be that they have the same arm and leg blades, but can activate and deactivate them:

Appendage blades: as a swift action, the deadly dancer can extend a blade from each of his appendages. These blades...
While the blades are extended, the dancer can not...

[Owrtho]

I personally find that it can be much more fun to make a character that would have notable disadvantages from a normal race due to their monstrous nature and figuring out how they could work around them.
As for not being compatible, such would likely be based on either the other party members (in character at least) not liking associating with a monster, or the NPCs not liking it. However, in the game that Matar plans to use the race in, almost all (if not all) of the party will somehow be an aberration or otherwise tied to the far realms, making the issues minor ones. With most of the party unable to easily enter most towns one more is hardly going to make an impact, and they aren't likely to be against it due to its nature.

Edit: Missed Imp_fireball's post. In order:
Natural weapons though don't gain bonus attacks from a high BAB score. They also lack the ability to be enchanted with most spells that enhance weapons, and can't take advantage of things like the two-weapon fighting tree.

Personally I think the figure looks a little too built for the average contortionist, but that may just be me.

I was only talking about dancing. But then again it may or may not be needed.

Hence why I pointed it out.

While that is true, the way I see it the race doesn't give much. It give the blades, a high move speed, language of dance (debatable how good it is), and that some skill bonuses. It takes away speaking, ability to cast spells with verbal components, ability to cast spells with somatic components (unless you take a feat, and then you still need to move at least 5 feet to do so), the ability to use any other weapons, and a minor skill penalty. Also has an odd feeding method that may be good or bad.

Owrtho

[Eldan]

Oh, I've used and seen a lot of very unusual races. From awakened cats to slime creatures to less unusual ones like rogue modrons. However, I still think that a player race has a severe disadvantage if it doesn't have any grasping appendage.

[Matar]

Very few weapons have 18-20 critical threat range, let alone x3 as well. I'm offering compensation since this part may get torn apart by other people on the thread.

While that's true, you have to remember that they're limited to slashing weapons. They also have no way of using ranged weapons (Although there insanely fast speed helps make up for this). Is there weapon stronger? Yes. But I think it fits.

After all, they -are- their weapon. Of course they're gonna be better at using it then most xD.


While that is true, the way I see it the race doesn't give much. It give the blades, a high move speed, language of dance (debatable how good it is), and that some skill bonuses. It takes away speaking, ability to cast spells with verbal components, ability to cast spells with somatic components (unless you take a feat, and then you still need to move at least 5 feet to do so), the ability to use any other weapons, and a minor skill penalty. Also has an odd feeding method that may be good or bad.

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of huge tradeoff/huge reward but I think it works for this race. Also, I think the race is finished enough for me to start working on feats for it, which I will post some time today.


So my alternate suggestion is this: why not, instead of making the race a direct conversion of the monster, make a kind of aberration-blooded (monstrous) humanoid related to the Deadly Dancer?

That would actually make a kick ass Aberration feat I think...


Oh, I've used and seen a lot of very unusual races. From awakened cats to slime creatures to less unusual ones like rogue modrons. However, I still think that a player race has a severe disadvantage if it doesn't have any grasping appendage.

Well.

With a check they can still open doors and pick up boxes and such. With a feat they can pick up pens and the like, and no longer need to pass a check to open doors.

The only issue with this is that it really depends on DM interpretation. What counts as an object large enough to not need a check with the feat and such? I think I should offer a list of what counts or not... not sure.

[Morph Bark]

Wouldn't they at least be able to strap on shields, or do the appendage blades prevent that too?

[Matar]

Wouldn't they at least be able to strap on shields, or do the appendage blades prevent that too?

I would think that they would...

A: Slip right off.
B: Mess up the way they walk (They walk with all they're limbs, after all)
C: The blade would cut through the straps.

If you think I should remove that though I suppose I can. Add in a line about how they can't use the limb that has the shield on it for attacking, and may not use tower shields or something...

[Owrtho]

Oh, I've used and seen a lot of very unusual races. From awakened cats to slime creatures to less unusual ones like rogue modrons. However, I still think that a player race has a severe disadvantage if it doesn't have any grasping appendage.

You mean like how awakened cats lack grasping appendages?

The deadly dancer can still do most of the key stuff, it just takes two hands an a sleight of hand check or a feat.

Owrtho

[Morph Bark]

I would think that they would...

A: Slip right off.
B: Mess up the way they walk (They walk with all they're limbs, after all)
C: The blade would cut through the straps.

If you think I should remove that though I suppose I can. Add in a line about how they can't use the limb that has the shield on it for attacking, and may not use tower shields or something...

Naw, 'sfine as it is, limits them some. And I imagine that some inventive folks would make equipment that these dancers could equip somehow.

[Matar]

This is the first feat I ever made. Thoughts? Is the wording clear enough?

Also, I added in that you can deal piercing damage with this feat as well. Why? Because a feat that only lets you pick up things and work with things in really... really... lame.

Precision Limbs [Racial]

You thought you had seen it all. Today in the Circus you were proven wrong. Honestly, a jugging Dancer? Who'd have thought.

Prerequisites: 15 Dexterity, Deadly Dancer

Benefits: You no longer need to pass a Slight of Hand check for handling larger objects (Such as opening doors or moving boxes). With a Slight of Hand check VS a DC of 10 you may handle fine objects (Pens, Feathers, wrapping bandages, etc). If doing so is linked to a certain skill you must roll this check once you are finished with the task, if you fail then the task you were attempting also fails. For example, if you're attempting to wrap bandages you must pass the Heal check and the Slight of Hand Check in order to be successful.

Furthermore, your skill with precise applications of your Appendage Blades carries over to your fighting style. When you attack with your Appendage Blades you may choose to have some or all of your attacks deal piercing damage.

Normal: You must pass a Slight of Hand check of 10 in order to handle larger objects. You may not handle fine objects. Your Appendage Blades are only capable of dealing clashing damage.

[Morph Bark]

This is the first feat I ever made. Thoughts? Is the wording clear enough?

Also, I added in that you can deal piercing damage with this feat as well. Why? Because a feat that only lets you pick up things and work with things in really... really... lame.

Precision Limbs [Racial]

You thought you had seen it all. Today in the Circus you were proven wrong. Honestly, a jugging Dancer? Who'd have thought.

Prerequisites: 14 Dexterity, Deadly Dancer

Benefits: You no longer need to pass a Slight of Hand check for handling larger objects (Such as opening doors or moving boxes). With a Slight of Hand check VS a DC of 10 you may handle fine objects (Pens, Feathers, wrapping bandages, etc). If doing so is linked to a certain skill you must roll this check once you are finished with the task, if you fail then the task you were attempting also fails. For example, if you're attempting to wrap bandages you must pass the Heal check and the Slight of Hand Check in order to be successful.

Furthermore, your skill with precise applications of your Appendage Blades carries over to your fighting style. When you attack with your Appendage Blades you may choose to have some or all of your attacks deal piercing damage.

Normal: You must pass a Slight of Hand check of 10 in order to handle larger objects. You may not handle fine objects. Your Appendage Blades are only capable of dealing clashing damage.

Sounds fair enough a start. One thing though, feats with ability score prereqs usually have an odd number. Dex 15 or 13 for instance.

If they normally walk on all fours, perhaps this could allow them to walk on just two appendages?

[Matar]

If they normally walk on all fours, perhaps this could allow them to walk on just two appendages?

Oh, sorry. That's not what I meant.

When they move they... dance. Walking on there arms, legs, one arm and leg, etc. That's how they have the name "Deadly Dancer". I'm sure nothing stops them from moving on just two limbs though. In fact, they can attack something just fine when standing on one limb.

When I said it mess up the way they walk, I didn't mean it would make it impossible. Just that, well, they wouldn't be able to walk they way they're supposed to is all.


Sounds fair enough a start. One thing though, feats with ability score prereqs usually have an odd number. Dex 15 or 13 for instance.

15 it is. Will fix now. Also, added it to the first post.

[Owrtho]

My suggestion would be a special shield designed for their race. It would be something like a fan allowing it to open or close as you needed and not get in the way of using any of the limbs for attacking or walking, but require a perform (dance) check any time you wanted to benefit from it being equipped.

Owrtho

[Matar]

My suggestion would be a special shield designed for their race. It would be something like a fan allowing it to open or close as you needed and not get in the way of using any of the limbs for attacking or walking, but require a perform (dance) check any time you wanted to benefit from it being equipped.

That'll come later I suppse xD

I'll work on another feat later tonight and have it posted up soon. Thanks for all the help so far guyz.

[Eldan]

Well, I guess a combat cloak would be useful for them instead of a normal feat. I think I've seen stats for those before, somewhere. In any case, there's feats for those.

I actually would give them a higher balance bonus: they literally balance on the tip of a blade all the time.

Also: is it just me or is the Dervish class made for these things?

[imp_fireball]

My suggestion would be a special shield designed for their race. It would be something like a fan allowing it to open or close as you needed and not get in the way of using any of the limbs for attacking or walking, but require a perform (dance) check any time you wanted to benefit from it being equipped.

Or you could do what I already suggested and say that they can use any weapon or item, just not in their hands (since they don't have any). That way, players aren't super confined to one 'special item' - you can create the special item, but you have to provide incentive for players to use it beyond 'this is the only damn manufactured weapon or shield you can use if you want to play this race, now deal with it'.

Also, they should be able to use bucklers just fine.

As for fine manipulation, how about 6 ranks in sleight of hand to take no penalty for performing basic functions requiring hands and opposable thumbs, 8 ranks for finesse actions such as dex related skills (use rope), etc. and 12 ranks for intricate actions (open lock, etc.; you can use your blades to make non-improvised lock pick checks at 12 ranks) and taking 20.

Skills that use strength and also require hands such as swim and climb require 6 ranks in each to take no penalty.

Alternatively, they can take a feat to get rid of any penalties for performing these actions.

You could make the race ambidexterous - meaning that they have no off-hand. When attacking with both of their weapons, treat as if fighting with your main hand twice (except that you have two main hands). Your feet count as natural weapons (-5 if not used in first attack) - a if deadly dancer commoner 1 attacked with all of their weapons, there attacks would be as follows: -2/-2/-7/-12.

If they take the two weapon fighting feat, then this becomes +0/+0/-5/-10. The two weapon fighting tree simply gives them one additional attack at the expense of taking a -2 penalty to all main hand attacks.

Finally, they don't need to make balance checks for narrow surfaces 7-12 inches or 2-6 inches wide (treat them as a surface wider). Surfaces less then 2 inches wide are treated as if they are 7-12 inches wide.

Narrow surfaces less then a centimeter in width are treated as if they are 2-6 inches wide and hair line narrow surfaces are treated as if they are less then 2 inches wide.

The above I decided on because of the picture - they seem to be pretty decent at balancing.


After all, they -are- their weapon. Of course they're gonna be better at using it then most xD.


So, make their arm blades count as natural weapons and light weapons (they have two main hands instead of one because ambidexterous). Their leg blades, on the other hand, are always considered natural weapons. If they make an attack with their leg blades first, then every other attack following counts as a natural weapon. If they attack with their arm blades first, then those count as their main hands.
---

As for feats, how about dance fighting [tactical]; Prerequisites - combat expertise, deadly dancer race, perform (dance) 5 ranks.

Standard action to begin any of the dances below and always a free action to end.

1. Artful Dance : While in an artful dance, make a perform (dance) check to feign (instead of bluff) as a free action (instead of a full action, or move action with 'Improved Feint'); use Dex as the ability score modifier instead of Cha for this roll.

2. Evasive Dance: While in an evasive dance, take a -8 penalty to all attacks, but a dodge bonus to AC equal to your ranks in perform (dance). You can also sacrifice an immediate action to substitute half your perform (dance) modifier (excluding dexterity or charisma) to a reflex save instead of the regular base reflex save modifier (only the dexterity modifier still applies). This is after the roll, and so it is adjusted accordingly (do not roll twice).

3. Frantic Dance: While in a frantic dance, you can go into total defense as a free action once per round (ending is a swift action) but your line of sight is reduced to 5*wisdom score ft. range while doing so. You may make attacks of opportunities while in this special form of total defense. When you end the dance, you end your total defense - if you wish to return your line of sight to normal, then you must not move (as in, change the space you are located in willingly) for an entire round while in total defense - or alternatively, end the dance and then expend a standard action to return to total defense.

4. Agile Dance: While in an agile dance, you can make a perform (dance) check at a DC of 10 + target's dexterity score to make an attack against a target as a free action, assuming they miss you (must be made immediately after a missed attack, if at all). Finally, you can take an additional 5ft. step as a perform (dance) check (DC 15 + 5 per additional 5ft. step).

Improved Dance Fighting [Tactical]; Prerequisites - Dance Fighting, BAB +5, Perform Dance (12 ranks)

Your dances improve significantly. Just like Dance Fighting, dances are begun as a standard action and ended as a free action. Note below that the affects of each dance are in addition to the affects provided by Dance Fighting.

Artful Dance: While performing this dance, aquire an affect as the spell 'Blur' as a free action. This is supernatural. You cannot feign in the same round that you blur.

Evasive Dance: Acquire a climb speed equal to your base move. Receive a +8 to climb checks. You may always take 10 to perform a climb check, even while threatened. You can substitute Str for Dex as your ability score modifier to climb.

Frantic Dance: While in this dance, acquire haste. This is extraordinary. You can sacrifice up to your ranks in perform (dance) in AC to receive a bonus to attacks and damage. Finally, you can make a full attack on a charge. You can charge over difficult terrain and obstacles, provided that you succeed on a perform dance check of DC = 1/2 the DC it would be to perform a horizontal jump over such terrain on a running start (ie. 5ft. high obstacles and 20ft. distance = DC 22 or 20; +20 for running start to traverse 5ft. and + 24 or +20 to rise 6 or 5 vertical feet - however much the GM rules is needed to get over the obstacle without touching it).

Agile Dance: While in this dance, you may end it to receive a circumstantial bonus to your next attack (but not the ones following in the same round) equal to your ranks in perform (dance). Alternatively, you can expend half this bonus towards improving your critical threat range on your next attack with the weapon you are wielding, or 1/4 towards improving your critical threat multiplier on your next attack with the weapon you are wielding - or, you could distribute these points however you like. Round down to get final modifier.

Ie. With 12 ranks in perform dance, Jill ends her agile dance and receives 12 points to invest in boosting her next attack. She puts 2 towards her attack modifier, 4 towards her critical threat range and the remaining 6 towards her critical multiplier. She is equiped with a greatsword (2d6 Slashing, 19-20/x2) - with her attack boosted, she receives a +2 circumstantial bonus to her next attack and her greatsword is now 2d6 Slashing, 17-20/x3. She had to round down since 6 points expended on critical multiplier yielded +1.5. After she makes her attack, her greatsword returns to how it was previously.

[Matar]

Also: is it just me or is the Dervish class made for these things?

I have never heard of that class before.


As for fine manipulation, how about 6 ranks in sleight of hand to take no penalty for performing basic functions requiring hands and opposable thumbs, 8 ranks for finesse actions such as dex related skills (use rope), etc. and 12 ranks for intricate actions (open lock, etc.; you can use your blades to make non-improvised lock pick checks at 12 ranks) and taking 20.

While a nice idea, I'd rather not make it more complicated. Too many things to keep in mind leads to more things being forgotten to speed things along >_>


So, make their arm blades count as natural weapons and light weapons (they have two main hands instead of one because ambidexterous). Their leg blades, on the other hand, are always considered natural weapons. If they make an attack with their leg blades first, then every other attack following counts as a natural weapon. If they attack with their arm blades first, then those count as their main hands.

Again, while I understand your point I don't like making things too complicated. Now, if there was a flaw with how I'm making it work right now then I'd change it... but it seems to work just fine. No reason to make anything more complicated, ya know?


for feats, how about dance fighting (tactical; prerequisites, combat expertise, deadly dancer race, perform (dance) 5 ranks.

What do you mean by tactical?

[imp_fireball]

While a nice idea, I'd rather not make it more complicated. Too many things to keep in mind leads to more things being forgotten to speed things along >_>

It removes the need for having to roll sleight of hand checks in the first place. You can simply say that it's impossible or would take 10 times as long without the ranks or the feat (really, the GM only needs to check five times maximum and then they can write the character off as having hands like everyone else).


Again, while I understand your point I don't like making things too complicated. Now, if there was a flaw with how I'm making it work right now then I'd change it... but it seems to work just fine. No reason to make anything more complicated, ya know?

This is instead of what you wrote, dude. Also what you wrote isn't as worthy of verisimillitude. So it isn't more to pay attention to - what you quoted is the guide line for the arm blades (besides the actual damage, damage type, critical threat and multiplier as normal for a weapon listing), period.


What do you mean by tactical?

From complete warrior (or complete adventurer? can't remember). Anyway check it out.

Also, feats have different types - such as [fighter], [metamagic], etc. [tactical] is another one, though I suppose a feat could also be [fighter, tactical], [metamagic, tactical], or even [fighter, metamagic, tactical] - but most people I've seen don't really bother and just give it one type listing.

Feat types are in the existing rules (also known as RAW).
----

3.5 edition really is this complicated and what I wrote is pretty much a follow up of the standard design formula (with natural weapons, weapon special properties such as material and special things that can be done with each weapon, body slots, etc.). It takes some getting used to. That's why 2nd edition was referred to as 'advanced dungeons and dragons, 2nd edition', I believe.


Base land speed: 60 Feet


Reduce this to 30ft. or 40ft.

If you want, you could make it 'treat base land speed as 60ft., but only while double moving or flat out running, holding nothing, and encumbered to only a light load' - that way, it'd be as if they are using all of their limbs to move rather then just one or two.

[Matar]

It removes the need for having to roll sleight of hand checks in the first place.

Very true. I like that idea, yeah. However, I'll leave the use of intricate movements (Wrapping bandages, sewing, etc) to the feat. That really strikes me as needing more intense study and effort then a simple skill rank.

I'll make the edit later today.


Reduce this to 30ft. or 40ft.

I think it's fine, honestly. They have no way of using ranged weapons after all. This helps with that. A normal move rate with no ranged weapons... I don't see what working out too well.

[imp_fireball]

That really strikes me as needing more intense study and effort then a simple skill rank.

Granted, skills can do amazing things. The best a person in the real world could ever do is about 9 ranks.

[imp_fireball]

I think it's fine, honestly. They have no way of using ranged weapons after all. This helps with that. A normal move rate with no ranged weapons... I don't see what working out too well.

Okay, I just proposed using weapons not held by hands (this is the third time mentioning it). Not all weapons need to be held by hands. For example, there's a bracer crossbow out there somewhere.

You really should just put in that little note there, just in case. Otherwise, it'll seem like these creatures SHUN weapons and shields, period.

-------
Also, hardly any creature has 60ft. move unless they want to be a mount (light riding horse to be exact; a racing horse is probably even faster but with less CON).

Giving this creature spring attack + lords of madness reach bonus feat (can't remember exact name) would make it worse.

40ft. is already nearly twice the speed of a human. A double move at 100ft. base move is roughly 35 km/h. Crazy fast.

EDIT: Okay, not quite, but 14km/h for someone double moving at 40ft. 10km/h for someone at 30ft.

Note that these speeds don't cause the person to tire quickly as if they were sprinting (even jogging), so they could travel like this for up to a few hours before nonlethal damage sets in.

A person with 40ft. speed is approximately 40% faster then someone with 30ft. speed. It can be assumed that they are unusually fit or whatever. In race, they would very quickly out run the 30ft. base speed competitor.

I propose 40ft. or 50ft.

[Matar]

Okay, I just proposed using weapons not held by hands (this is the third time mentioning it). Not all weapons need to be held by hands. For example, there's a bracer crossbow out there somewhere.

Hrm.

I've never heard of the bracer crossbow. However, I guess a small edit is in order then. Mind, they wouldn't even be able to reload it without a the feat, seeing as how reloading something on your arm blade is most certainly an intricate action.

Here's the small edit.


Appendage Blades: A Deadly Dancer is automatically proficient with there Appendage Blade. They are unable to use shields or handheld weapons besides their Appendage Blades. Their Appendage Blades deal 1d6+Strength damage and have a critical range of 18-20x3.

Better?


Also, hardly any creature has 60ft. move unless they want to be a mount (light riding horse to be exact; a racing horse is probably even faster but with less CON).

That's also the exact speed they have in the book, which is another reason I don't want to change it. However, if I get someone else suggesting to change it for balance reasons I will do so.

Now, onto something you wrote before...


Finally, they don't need to make balance checks for narrow surfaces 7-12 inches or 2-6 inches wide (treat them as a surface wider). Surfaces less then 2 inches wide are treated as if they are 7-12 inches wide.

I really like that. A small edit later...


Deathly Dancer: Deadly Dancers gain a +4 racial bonus to all Perform (Dance) checks. They also gain a +4 racial bonus to Balance while taking a -4 racial penalty to Climb. Finally, when crossing a narrow surface treat it as surface wider. This may cancel out the need for a balance roll.

Thoughts?

-Edit: I changed the Deadly Dancer Appendage Blade a little. Here is the edit, to make it easier on you all.


Along with this, a Deadly Dancers blades makes it impossible to do finer intricate movements. It is impossible for them to apply bandages or reloading a crossbow for example. You must have 6 ranks into Slight of Hand to perform basic functions, such as turning a door knob or lifting a box. You need 10 ranks in Slight of Hand for finer movements, such as tying a simple knot or holding fine objects. As stated before, finer intricate movements such as applying bandages, sewing, or reloading a crossbow are impossible.

[imp_fireball]

I've never heard of the bracer crossbow. However, I guess a small edit is in order then. Mind, they wouldn't even be able to reload it without a the feat, seeing as how reloading something on your arm blade is most certainly an intricate action.

Just get a repeater crossbow with a large magazine and then have someone else reload it for them.

I've been working on incorporating technology into 3.5 for a little while now.

[Matar]

I made a small update to the appendage blade, as I stated above. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss it.

I plan on writing up another feat later on tonight... so yeah.

[Matar]

I don't know how well this feat works, but we'll see...

--

Eldritch Walts[Racial]

Bone on steel is your voice. You're twisting flesh the symbols. Now and forever, you are magic and blade.

Prerequisites: 13 Dexterity, Spellcraft 8, Deadly Dancer

Benefits: By moving a minimum of five feet and unencumbered you are capable of casting spells with somatic components. Furthermore, so long as you move on or next to a hard surface (Stone, Metal, Bone, Ice. Not dirt, sand, or water) you are capable of casting spells with Verbal components, so long as you have 12 or more ranks in Slight of Hand and Spellcraft.

Finally, you gain a +1 DC bonus for all spells you cast with a somatic component.

Normal: You are unable to cast spell with somatic and verbal components.

--

Thoughts? The reason it grants a +1 to DC is because, well... a feat that lets you use a class feature is freaking lame if that's all it does. The +1 is to make you go "Oh hey, well that sucks but... oh yay plus one! Weeeeee"

[Cealocanth]

That's preety cool! It makes an interesting monster as well as a very interesting PC. I think I might try playing one of these things eventually.

[imp_fireball]

Appendage Blades: A Deadly Dancer is automatically proficient with there Appendage Blade. They are unable to use shields or handheld weapons besides their Appendage Blades. Their Appendage Blades deal 1d6+Strength damage and have a critical range of 18-20x3.

How about:


Appendage Blades: A deadly dancer's appendage blades count as both natural and light weapons for the purpose of wielding them (thus, they are automatically proficient), giving them both the benefits and penalties/negatives of being natural weapons, and only the benefits of being light weapons. If they do not attack with their appendage blades on their first attack with a weapon that requires hands during their turn in a round* then they cannot count as light weapons for the rest of their attacks made in a turn. They still count as light weapons for the purpose of attacks of opportunity made with them and class features.

They are unable to use items, weapons or shields that require hands as these body slots are permanently occupied by their Appendage Blades. The hand slots of a deadly dancer can never be made unoccupied, even through successful disarm or sunder checks made against appendage blades.

*Appendage blades fulfill this category of weaponry. Thus the first attack with such weapons needs to be the appendage blades for them to count as light weapons during the creature's turn.

Appendage Blades = 1d6 + Str Slashing or Piercing damage, 18-20/x3.

NOTE: When a weapons states X or Y damage, then the character wielding it has the option of choosing their damage in one attack to be X or Y, but not both. If the weapon states X and Y, then the damage dealt is always X and Y and not either/or. The rules apply as such in the SRD.

That's rather important to note, just so y'know.

EDIT: I've never actually seen it, but I suppose that if a weapon stated 'X and/or Y', then the damage type dealt could be either/or or both, which could be useful against an enemy who maybe had an ability (ie. regeneration) that activated were they ever dealt a certain type of damage against them.
------

Also the 'count as light weapons' is important because it can then apply to certain feats that specify light weapons, such as two weapon fighting.

It doesn't need to be explicitly stated that they are automatically proficient (though I did anyway). Making them natural and light is a bit like powerful build - gain the benefits of light weapons and none of the negatives, with only the negatives of being natural weapons. For reference, powerful build grants the all the benefits of being one size larger (except natural reach given from one size category larger), without the penalties.

That 'first attack' business is important because that way, you can open up with a first attack that is unarmed or one with a weapon such as a bracer crossbow (a weapon that doesn't need hands), then attack with your appendage blades in conjunction with two weapon fighting, and then attack with your natural weapons (your leg blades) in conjunction with multi weapon fighting - this is just an example, however. The point is, it opens up options.

It doesn't necessarily need to be fully interpreted if the players are noobs (since noobs don't necessarily spend time fully interpreting rules in RAW).

The little asterix states that appendage blades require hands, even though the deadly dancer doesn't have hands.

Also note that I explained that the appendage blades permanently occupy the hands, getting rid of any confusion about whether or not they are wielded as if they were held in hands. Also, there is 'none of the penalties/negatives of being light weapons', meaning if they are sundered or disarmed (for example) then they count as natural weapons.
----


Eldritch Walts[Racial]



Eldritch Waltz[Racial]


Along with this, a Deadly Dancers blades makes it impossible to do finer intricate movements. It is impossible for them to apply bandages or reloading a crossbow for example. You must have 6 ranks into Slight of Hand to perform basic functions, such as turning a door knob or lifting a box. You need 10 ranks in Slight of Hand for finer movements, such as tying a simple knot or holding fine objects. As stated before, finer intricate movements such as applying bandages, sewing, or reloading a crossbow are impossible.



Along with this, a Deadly Dancer's blades makes it impossible to do finer intricate movements. It is impossible for them to peform such actions as applying bandages or reloading a crossbow. You must have invested 6 ranks into Sleight of Hand to perform basic functions, such as turning a door knob or lifting a box. You need to invest at least 10 ranks in Sleight of Hand for performing finesse movements, such as tying a simple knot, donning armor, or holding particularly small objects such as a quill.

Finer intricate movements that include such actions as applying bandages, sewing, and reloading a crossbow, as well as skills requiring hands beyond strength (such as swim or climb), are impossible.

It's spelt 'sleight of hand'. When I'm performing a sleight of hand, I'm not making a slight against you (which can be defined as a rude remark or gesture).


As stated before, finer intricate movements such as applying bandages, sewing, or reloading a crossbow are impossible.

You should probably edit the OP so that it's only stated here. Then you don't have to re-iterate yourself (which feels awkward and unorganized to me).
----

So, yeah. Done. I recommend you copy/paste what I wrote in the 'fix' quotes above. :smallsmile:

If you don't want to refont the copy/paste, then just quote this post and copy it in the edit (it contains the BB code).

[Matar]

How about:

I don't really agree with that for the same reasons as before. It's just an overcomplicated way of doing something. I think the way I have it now it easier to understand, and works just fine.


Eldritch Waltz[Racial]

Fix'd and added to the first post.


It's spelt 'sleight of hand'. When I'm performing a sleight of hand, I'm not making a slight against you (which can be defined as a rude remark or gesture).

Will fix.


Along with this, a Deadly Dancer's blades makes it impossible to do finer intricate movements. It is impossible for them to perform such actions as applying bandages or reloading a crossbow. You must have invested 6 ranks into Sleight of Hand to perform basic functions, such as turning a door knob or lifting a box. You need to invest at least 10 ranks in Sleight of Hand for performing finesse movements, such as tying a simple knot, donning armor, or holding particularly small objects such as a quill.

Finer intricate movements that include such actions as applying bandages, sewing, and reloading a crossbow, as well as skills requiring hands beyond strength (such as swim or climb), are impossible.

While I like the edit and everything, I'm going to remove the last part. They can climb and swim just fine. Well, swim at least. Climbing can be hard for them. Other then that, I'll add the change in.

[imp_fireball]

I don't really agree with that for the same reasons as before. It's just an overcomplicated way of doing something. I think the way I have it now it easier to understand, and works just fine.

Okay, I'll say again, it isn't any more complicated and involves no more 'doing' then your explanation - it's just takes into consideration the finer details (which all too often come up in games), preventing less confusion. Eventually, someone will misinterpret it otherwise.

For example, 'deadly dancers can't use shields no matter WHAT', 'deadly dancers can un-equip their blades since they don't say that they are natural weapons' and other misinterpretations resulting from poor wording, etc.


as well as skills requiring hands beyond strength (such as swim or climb), are impossible.

The wording was meant to state that skills that require hands and involving the ability score strength are possible but other skills involving hands are impossible.

[Matar]

Okay, I'll say again, it isn't any more complicated and involves no more 'doing' then your explanation - it's just takes into consideration the finer details (which all too often come up in games), preventing less confusion. Eventually, someone will misinterpret it otherwise.

Be that as it may, what you wrote still strikes me as far too confusing. The wording for it just doesn't sit well with me. The way it's worded now may need work, but I don't find what you wrote it be all that much better.


For example, 'deadly dancers can't use shields no matter WHAT', 'deadly dancers can un-equip their blades since they don't say that they are natural weapons' and other misinterpretations resulting from poor wording, etc.

I see what you mean. I think I'll switch the word "use" with "equip". That should fix it up just fine. They can't equip shields, but if they have a way to use a shield without equipping it it's fine.

-Edit:

I changed the wording for Blade Hunger. It was... totally butchered for some reason and I just noticed it.

[imp_fireball]

They can't equip shields, but if they have a way to use a shield without equipping it it's fine.

Without equipping shields in their hands. Cannot equip shields in their hands.

Since you said that the appendage blades aren't natural weapons, you're effectively making them some other kind of weapon that can be wielded. You should at least say that they permanently occupy the hand slots and cannot be de-equipped, etc.

Because if the blades are wielded, then even though the deadly dancer doesn't technically have hand slots, it just leads to confusion. If the blades permanently occupy the hand slots, then the deadly dancer can't use any items with their hands anyway, and you don't even have to mention how they can't use any items requiring hands.


Be that as it may, what you wrote still strikes me as far too confusing. The wording for it just doesn't sit well with me. The way it's worded now may need work, but I don't find what you wrote it be all that much better.

Be that as it may, you should probably just copy/paste what I wrote into the OP and then ask for suggestions on how to make the wording more clear and interpretable.

Because what I wrote includes pretty much everything needed to be understood, do you agree?

[Matar]

I suppose you're right. I'll make the edit asap.

Although. Now that I think about it, a Deadly Dancer mates by stabbing there arm blade into someone and breaking it off. That body/arm then grows into a new Deadly Dancer. The Deadly Dancer that does this takes one point of damage per... gosh, round I think until someone ether heals them or they die.

Maybe I should make it so you can sunder there arms and they take this damage? Would that nerf them too much? Maybe whoever trys to sunder them takes a penalty to doing so seeing as how they're so agilie or something. What do you think?

Also, imma start writing up some rules for Half-whatever. You will never find, say, a Half-fireelemental one seeing as they need a humanish (two arms/two legs/a head. Basically anything roughly human shaped) to breed with. A dragon wouldn't work unless it was transformed into a human when/after it died. But, say, a Nymph or Vampire would. I... guess.

[Owrtho]

I'd point out elementals can generally be shaped however. So there could be a half fire elemental. And I don't know that it would take damage if it lost a blade. I expect the blades are somewhat more like claws or nails. They don't actually have much in the way of blood or the like in them, and would just be short and need to grow back if broken.

Owrtho

[Matar]

They don't actually have much in the way of blood or the like in them, and would just be short and need to grow back if broken.

Except fluff says that they.... do. I'm not sure why. I guess they have blood and veins and stuff in those things.

I'll write up some more feats later tonight/tomorrow.