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View Full Version : Too harsh? [My party STAY OUT, on pain of -200 to all numerical values]



Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 06:20 AM
OK, I plan for my party's first encounter to be in a city, fighting against Vampire Spawns primarily. The party is comprised of the following:

Dwarf Barbarian 2/Fighter 2
Human Swashbuckler 4
Elf Bard 4
Elf Ranger 4 (Archer)
Human Ranger 4 (2 weapons)
Human Cleric 3/Fighter 1

I've been scanning over their abilities, and I'm worried this might be a little difficult, especially since the party won't have much in the way of armour or weapons.

What do you guys think? (Post asking for any other details required)

Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 09:40 AM
They look beatstick heavy. And of course, fighting vampire spawns inevitibly leads to them wondering where daddy vampire is. They're probably not ready for that yet.

So...make equipment available in various ways. Get used to the phrase "I'll give you that, IF...". They can get gear in return for obligations to others, which gives you built in plot hooks, and a way to make the story more interesting.

AmberVael
2010-07-18, 09:49 AM
I've been scanning over their abilities, and I'm worried this might be a little difficult, especially since the party won't have much in the way of armour or weapons.

A primarily beatstick/archer/mundane fighter-ish party without decent armor or weapons?
Why aren't they going to have decent armor or weapons? This sounds bad. No matter what else you do, things will just come back down to this lack of any good relevant equipment and be bad.

Did they just not have enough starting gold? Is this some bizarre limitation you enforced? Did a rust monster happen? What?
Suffice to say, solve this problem and then you can get going with something.


Anyway, in terms of vampire spawn, if you're afraid spawn will be a bit much for them, I suggest tossing in extra, less special ability heavy undead. Your group will be just fine for taking down things with big hit points, so throwing in things like skeletons and zombies of varying sizes and potency could be perfect (and probably not be far off from the theme).
That's really what I'd worry about- it's a rather large party, with a multi-class cleric (and a bard, I guess...). Handling things other than straightforward attacks is going to be rather hard on them. Ability damage or save focused attacks... don't entirely rule them out, just sprinkle them in lightly.

Aroka
2010-07-18, 09:50 AM
They should be able to take on 2-4, provided the beatstick (the fig/brb; rangers are just a joke) deals a lot of damage or has a silver weapon. Some casualties are likely, as are permanent level losses (probably for the rangers, since their function will be to take hits and hope they don't drop before the fight is over). Vampire spawn are CR 4 and have powerful special attacks and specialized defenses, so they're not exactly fodder for a level 4 party.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 11:09 AM
OK, I've had a looksey, and here's a general outline of the plot (Spoilered for length):

The party meet in a tavern (I know it's a stereotype, sue me :smalltongue:). They are told to ask the children why everyone in the town looks so sombre, as the children are too innocent to know that it is a "taboo" subject in the town. The party are informed by a child that people don't always come back when they cross the river that runs through town, or the "nasties" will get them. These nasties are, of course, vampires, and others will testify to this fact should they be coerced into speaking. Various hints will be dropped by the populace that the Town Guard could lend them some equipment, should they try and deal with the vampires. The guardsmen will tell the party to go see the Priest on the west side of the river (The non-vampire side). Doing so, the Priest will give them garlic, mirrors, holy symbols etc if they clear out the crypt in the graveyard, as skeletons have begun to rise there. The Priest destroyed as many as he could, but he's sealed the crypt for now, until he can recover his strength. Party destroy skeletons, blah blah blah, get vampire-repellants.

By this time it is about 10pm, so I hope that they will be smart enough to not try and confront the vampires until the morning. In this scenario, they retire to their current lodgings, and when they awaken the next morning, they find a body in the street outside the inn, with puncture marks in the throat. The townspeople are terrified by this, as this means someone has been helping the vampires get across the river. Anyway, the party is informed that the vampires must be staying in the abandoned warehouse by the wharf on the East side of town. The party can either take the spawns out one by one in the warehouse, or they can do what I expect them to, knowing the characters, and try and burn the warehouse to the ground, a tactic that will work.

As they cross back over to the West side of town, they are attacked by a low-level warrior, who is the guard of the bridge, who is the person that has been aiding the vampires, admittedly against his will. Crossing back, they will go to the Priest to return his symbols etc, and will find him slain and the master vampire in the crypt with 3 newly made spawns. These spawns are weak, however, and so will only have 1 or 2 HD, and will not be able to drain levels, as they are so "fresh". Party dispatch them easily, dispatch master vampire (CR 5-ish), and have a big hoorah.

Sorry about the huge length, I will understand tl;dr :smallsmile:



Also, the reason that the party doesn't have much in the way of armour and weapons is that I wanted them to have some form of progression, as the suggested 5,400gp per character would buy them most equipment they would ever want from the word go, excluding powerful magic items. However, they do gain some equipment before fighting the spawns, as mentioned above.

Morph Bark
2010-07-18, 11:19 AM
If your party can work together reasonably and isn't really bad at using strategy, I doubt this will be too harsh for them. Weaker vampspawn and there's six of them, including a party-boosting Bard and a Cleric. I'd be more afraid of this being too easy for them, especially if they'd go against the vampire and the vampire would be all alone. Party of six level 4s against one CR 5 vamp? Would need spicing up methinks.

Only problem would be the DR, but the vampire itself obviously will need that and fast healing.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 11:23 AM
Some casualties are likely, as are permanent level losses (probably for the rangers, since their function will be to take hits and hope they don't drop before the fight is over).

Ah, now, this was something I was confused about. When a negative level is bestowed by a spawn, how do they save against it? I know there's a DC14 Fort save, but I don't know when they can make the save. Someone told me they could try the Fort save in a standard action at any point, but that didn't seem at all right to me.

Ranos
2010-07-18, 11:28 AM
Ah, now, this was something I was confused about. When a negative level is bestowed by a spawn, how do they save against it? I know there's a DC14 Fort save, but I don't know when they can make the save. Someone told me they could try the Fort save in a standard action at any point, but that didn't seem at all right to me.

24H later.

tyckspoon
2010-07-18, 11:29 AM
24 hours after application of the negative level. If they pass the save at that point, the level disappears. If they fail it, it disappears and they actually lose a level instead (it's recommended that they burn any save-boosting spells or items they have around for this event.)

Ranos
2010-07-18, 11:34 AM
Some casualties are likely, as are permanent level losses (probably for the rangers, since their function will be to take hits and hope they don't drop before the fight is over).
The vamps can't touch them directly, actually. They have garlic/mirrors/holy symbols.

awa
2010-07-18, 11:35 AM
a few scrolls of restoration lying around can get rid of the getting creamed by level drain. vampires have a ton of weakness if the clerics have enough ranks of knowledge religion and are the correct alignments they can make the fight much easier

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 12:34 PM
Hmm, alright, that 24 hours thing is worrying me a lot. Any suggestions on how adventurers would deal with this kind of thing?

Milskidasith
2010-07-18, 12:40 PM
Hmm, alright, that 24 hours thing is worrying me a lot. Any suggestions on how adventurers would deal with this kind of thing?

I'd suggest having the vampire spawn carry scrolls of "Plot device Mc-IDon'tWantToScrewYou's very specific anti-negative level Restoration."

They still get the annoying penalty during the fight, but just make a few UMD checks and remove it so they aren't screwed over permanently.

Otherwise, the solution is to use every save booster you have at that time; generally, a few buffs from the cleric, any potions you have, any daily rerolls, any daily rerolls other party members can force, etc. are all applied at this point.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 12:41 PM
I'd suggest having the vampire spawn carry scrolls of "Plot device Mc-IDon'tWantToScrewYou's very specific anti-negative level Restoration."

They still get the annoying penalty during the fight, but just make a few UMD checks and remove it so they aren't screwed over permanently.

Otherwise, the solution is to use every save booster you have at that time; generally, a few buffs from the cleric, any potions you have, any daily rerolls, any daily rerolls other party members can force, etc. are all applied at this point.

I think what I'm going to do is have the spawns focus on the blood-draining, 'cos at least that's temporary (I think :smalleek:), and I'm gonna give them a non-level draining attack.

Morph Bark
2010-07-18, 01:55 PM
I think what I'm going to do is have the spawns focus on the blood-draining, 'cos at least that's temporary (I think :smalleek:), and I'm gonna give them a non-level draining attack.

Or, y'know, have the energy drain not have permanent effects. Call it energy damage instead? Like the difference between ability damage and ability drain?

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 02:27 PM
Or, y'know, have the energy drain not have permanent effects. Call it energy damage instead? Like the difference between ability damage and ability drain?

I would do that, but I'm one of those people, I don't like changing the rules unless I absolutely have to. I'm fine with adding an attack, or changing something to make it applicable to general D&D, rather than a specific setting, but I don't like changing things too much.

However, in this case I might, depending on how I feel.

cZak
2010-07-18, 02:36 PM
If you have it, use the vampire spawn advancement table from Libris Mortis.
The VS do not get energy drain until 8th level/ 4HD.

Just make em 'baby' spawn w/o the energy drain. It would still be a creepy encounter with them spider climbing, gaseous form and resisting energy attacks (cold & elec 10).

And might be a cool plot device. Some newly made vampire is flexing its new found powers; spawning urchins/ orphans or such.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-18, 02:39 PM
You could houserule it to be like the felldrain metamagic and disapear after 15 hours and needing no save.

aivanther
2010-07-18, 02:49 PM
You've already given yourself the ability to fix it: the priest. If your party are like any players I've ever known they'll loot the place. Chest o' scrolls n' wands that happen to contain a healthy supply of restoration items. Incidentally, said priest should also have some silvered weapons.

Evard
2010-07-18, 04:20 PM
Give them an item that will remove the vampy's curse but ONLY if they finish a side quest really fast. Like have a crazy old guy tell them where an item is that reverses any effect that vampires give you as long as you lick it or something. Have the crazy old guy have a minor version of the effect that will last X weeks.

This way you can throw anything you want at them and not feel to bad if they all have dropped stats :P

Coidzor
2010-07-18, 04:30 PM
OK, I plan for my party's first encounter to be in a city, fighting against Vampire Spawns primarily. The party is comprised of the following:

Dwarf Barbarian 2/Fighter 2
Human Swashbuckler 4
Elf Bard 4
Elf Ranger 4 (Archer)
Human Ranger 4 (2 weapons)
Human Cleric 3/Fighter 1

I've been scanning over their abilities, and I'm worried this might be a little difficult, especially since the party won't have much in the way of armour or weapons.

What do you guys think? (Post asking for any other details required)

They're fighter heavy and don't have much in the way of fighter equipment for whatever reason despite being 4th level characters. Combat heavy sessions with level-draining undead... Uh, yeah...

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 04:41 PM
They're fighter heavy and don't have much in the way of fighter equipment for whatever reason despite being 4th level characters. Combat heavy sessions with level-draining undead... Uh, yeah...

When it comes to the actual fight, they'll probs have light armour each, rapiers, axes, hammers, morningstars, basic weaponry like that.

Coidzor
2010-07-18, 04:42 PM
When it comes to the actual fight, they'll probs have light armour each, rapiers, axes, hammers, morningstars, basic weaponry like that.

What is this, wannabe Dark Sun? :smalltongue:

Yorrin
2010-07-18, 04:46 PM
How many Vamp Spawn are we talking here? Because the Cleric could finish this fight by him/herself through liberal use of Turn/Rebuke Undead. I'd be more worried about the VampSpawn fighting a Cleric than the other way around...

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-18, 04:47 PM
How many Vamp Spawn are we talking here? Because the Cleric could finish this fight by him/herself through liberal use of Turn/Rebuke Undead. I'd be more worried about the VampSpawn fighting a Cleric than the other way around...

We're talking up to and including 10, if they go down the stupid route and try and kill these things one at a time. If they don't, then it will be fewer, and in batches of 1 or 2.

Coidzor
2010-07-18, 04:53 PM
How many Vamp Spawn are we talking here? Because the Cleric could finish this fight by him/herself through liberal use of Turn/Rebuke Undead. I'd be more worried about the VampSpawn fighting a Cleric than the other way around...

Hence why he'd be the priority. Though... considering he dipped fighter, I'm not exactly confident in his clerical abilities.

Grumman
2010-07-18, 04:56 PM
We're talking up to and including 10.
They're proper ****ed.

Yorrin
2010-07-18, 04:57 PM
Given that he has a non-negative Cha mod and rolls a 10 on his turning check (or less with a positive Cha score) he'll be forcing on average 3 spawn per turn to flee. Since he's holding a holy symbol they can't attack him directly, which means that he's got the encounter pretty much wrapped up in three turns by himself. The beatsticks can take out at least one apart from him.

Of course if he fails a turning check he'll have wasted one of his few times per day, or if he rolls really lousy damage he'll only be turning 1 or 2 of them, but he's still pretty scary. If he has a high charisma (16+) and/or bonuses to turn checks and/or the Disciple of the Sun feat that fight is going to be over very quickly.

Coidzor
2010-07-18, 05:45 PM
Given that he has a non-negative Cha mod and rolls a 10 on his turning check (or less with a positive Cha score) he'll be forcing on average 3 spawn per turn to flee. Since he's holding a holy symbol they can't attack him directly, which means that he's got the encounter pretty much wrapped up in three turns by himself. The beatsticks can take out at least one apart from him.

Nah. If he has a 10 charisma, he has to roll a 13, less with a positive charisma score. Not a hard roll, of course, but just pointing out the numbers. His average turning damage will only be 12 (3 spawn) if he has at least a 16 in charisma or a 14 in charisma and improved turning though.

With their ability to spiderclimb and being in a city, odds are they won't be able to eliminate the turned ones, due to them being able to pretty freely escape from them, as they seem mostly melee focused.

Of course, if they were played really intelligentlyviciously, they'd open up from the walls/roof of a building and dominant the low will save types into killing the cleric.