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View Full Version : [3.5] Evening Out Casters (Among Themselves)



Zovc
2010-07-18, 08:17 AM
How would one go about balancing casters among themselves? Personally, I'd use a "nerf" as a starting point. The reason I'd nerf casters to start off is because I don't like prepared casting, mostly, but removing prepared casting also helps deal with "Batman Wizardry".

So, as a starting point I would make the Cleric, the Druid, and the Wizard all use this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) for their spellcasting. In order to keep wizards able to cast spells of appropriate levels, let's assume they know one extra spell at each given level.*

*Perhaps they learn an extra spell based on their Specialized domain?

Sorcerers start looking even worse compared to Wizards, though, since Wizards end up being spontaneous casters with quicker progression, bonus feats, and a better casting stat. What should we do to fix the Sorcerer's problems? Let's start by moving their spell progression down a level, to where they are learning new levels of spells at the same levels as other casters. After that, giving them bonus feats is probably a good idea. Perhaps we can give them a better hit dice and the ability to cast in armor? What about a medium BAB?

What can we do to nerf the Druid's incredible class features? What can we do to make the cleric want to keep taking levels in its own class rather than just Prestige Classing as soon as possible?

Kylarra
2010-07-18, 09:34 AM
I'm sure you're probably aware of this, but just to say it, Clerics would need actual class features in later levels (beyond spells) in order to not PrC out ASAP. A simple starting solution would be giving them more spell(s) known at certain milestones.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 09:45 AM
Sorcerers start looking even worse compared to Wizards, though, since Wizards end up being spontaneous casters with quicker progression, bonus feats, and a better casting stat. What should we do to fix the Sorcerer's problems? Let's start by moving their spell progression down a level, to where they are learning new levels of spells at the same levels as other casters. After that, giving them bonus feats is probably a good idea. Perhaps we can give them a better hit dice and the ability to cast in armor? What about a medium BAB?

The problem is, when the wizard and the sorc cast exactly the same way, there is no purpose to having both of them.

Move down sorc spell progression a level and give them bonus feats? Now wizard and sorc differ only in name. Give them hit die, armor, and bab? Now wizard is pointless.

This seems like a really complicated way to say "I ban prepared casters".

Zovc
2010-07-18, 10:33 AM
The problem is, when the wizard and the sorc cast exactly the same way, there is no purpose to having both of them.

Move down sorc spell progression a level and give them bonus feats? Now wizard and sorc differ only in name.

You say that as if Sorcerers don't already have special spells that only they can get, and as if the two classes use the same casting stat. There are already subtle differences in the classes beyond prepared and non-prepared spellcasting and the rate at which they access new levels.


Give them hit die, armor, and bab? Now wizard is pointless.

Maybe. This is why I am trying to give all of the classes more (and/or different) stuff to help differentiate them. The fact of the matter is, you need to have a reason to choose the Sorcerer over the Wizard, since the Wizard uses an almost always strictly better casting stat.


This seems like a really complicated way to say "I ban prepared casters

In a way, yes, it is... then again, that sort of is the point.

Edit:

I'm sure you're probably aware of this, but just to say it, Clerics would need actual class features in later levels (beyond spells) in order to not PrC out ASAP. A simple starting solution would be giving them more spell(s) known at certain milestones.


What can we do to nerf the Druid's incredible class features? What can we do to make the cleric want to keep taking levels in its own class rather than just Prestige Classing as soon as possible?

...yeeeah. :P

Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 10:42 AM
You say that as if Sorcerers don't already have special spells that only they can get, and as if the two classes use the same casting stat. There are already subtle differences in the classes beyond prepared and non-prepared spellcasting and the rate at which they access new levels.

Very few. Precisely two that are worth anything. And casting stat is somewhat mutable already. The generic caster uses wisdom, which has all sorts of fun advantages.

Once you factor out feats, type of casting, and spell progression, you have very minor differences. After all, the casting is what makes the casters what they are.


Maybe. This is why I am trying to give all of the classes more (and/or different) stuff to help differentiate them. The fact of the matter is, you need to have a reason to choose the Sorcerer over the Wizard, since the Wizard uses an almost always strictly better casting stat.

Better for int skills, not better for social situations. Sorcerer/bard/sublime chord is terrific.


In a way, yes, it is... then again, that sort of is the point.

Well then, don't bother with disguising it among lots of changes. Just say "no prepared casters. If this messes up your plan, well, you can tweak a spont caster a bit." Vastly simpler, gets straight to the point, and doesn't risk being seen as an attempt to stealth nerf things you dislike.

SilveryCord
2010-07-18, 10:49 AM
-The prime issue is that casters can boost the crap out of a single stat and they'll get more spells and higher DC spells.
-Caster PrCs with full casting are strictly better than straight classing.

Fix: Caster PrCs only progress 7/10ths at most.
Casters use Intelligence for highest spell level known, Wisdom for bonus spells/day, and Charisma for spell DCs.

You have to choose between SoDs and large numbers of spells. Doesn't fix everything but it's a good start.

woodenbandman
2010-07-18, 10:57 AM
The only class that doesn't benefit from PrCs in core is the druid. Why does cleric need class features? It's got prestige classes for that.

Zovc
2010-07-18, 11:02 AM
Well then, don't bother with disguising it among lots of changes. Just say "no prepared casters. If this messes up your plan, well, you can tweak a spont caster a bit." Vastly simpler, gets straight to the point, and doesn't risk being seen as an attempt to stealth nerf things you dislike.

The fact of the matter, though, is that I am completely acknowledging that I am trying to nerf casters. lol

Maybe I should simply tweak the Generic Spellcaster, though?

Perhaps a page should be taken out of the Favored Soul's book, then, SilveryCord? You choose between Intelligence and Wisdom for bonus spells/day, and use Charisma for saves. Highest Spell Level Known will just be Intelligence or Wisdom, whichever is chosen for bonus spells/day.

Before we worry about PrC's, I think a direction should be determined for the base classes.

I don't think PrC's need to be as bad as 7/10. To be honest, 9/10 is a pretty big hit, but so long as classes don't progress casting at their first level, dipping gets generally nerfed.

AvatarZero
2010-07-18, 11:06 AM
Isn't the really powerful thing about prepared casters that they can access every spell in every book? Wouldn't the easy way to curb that be to limit access to the really powerful spells? Not sure about how to handle Clerics and Druids, but it's possible that Wizards (and Archivists?) just might not be able to get hold of a scroll of Celerity.

Zovc
2010-07-18, 11:12 AM
Wouldn't the easy way to curb that be to limit access to the really powerful spells?

This is the driving force behind my idea of making things spontaneous casting only. There's also the fact that I hate preparing spells.

ericgrau
2010-07-18, 12:43 PM
Sorcerers make superb batman wizards, as I've done it multiple times.

Prodan
2010-07-18, 12:51 PM
Sorcerers make superb batman wizards, as I've done it multiple times.

How do you accomplish that?

ericgrau
2010-07-18, 12:54 PM
You don't have to do anything special. Use what the wizard would prepare for his general purpose list. Sorcerers get slightly more spells prepared than wizards, but they can't swap them.

Milskidasith
2010-07-18, 12:57 PM
-The prime issue is that casters can boost the crap out of a single stat and they'll get more spells and higher DC spells.
-Caster PrCs with full casting are strictly better than straight classing.

Fix: Caster PrCs only progress 7/10ths at most.
Casters use Intelligence for highest spell level known, Wisdom for bonus spells/day, and Charisma for spell DCs.

You have to choose between SoDs and large numbers of spells. Doesn't fix everything but it's a good start.

Encouraging MAD and making all wizard PrCs useless is not a way to balance casters.

Prodan
2010-07-18, 01:06 PM
Sorcerers get slightly more spells prepared than wizards, but they can't swap them.
I was hoping you'd found a way to swap them.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-18, 01:12 PM
I was hoping you'd found a way to swap them.
Well, there's the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC from Complete Arcane (Sorcerers can qualify by way of the Arcane Preparation feat in the same book).

Under Magic/Psionics Transparency, Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) can be used to duplicate Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm). Under Magic/Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can be used to swap out spells known for Sorcerers.

SilveryCord
2010-07-18, 01:24 PM
Encouraging MAD and making all wizard PrCs useless is not a way to balance casters.

Melee types have to have good STR and CON, and usually DEX. How is this different? You put 15 into Int, and then choose whether you'd like to focus on Save DCs or getting bonus spells. MAD is multi-attribute dependency; in this case, only one attribute is necessary, and the other two are powerful options.

ericgrau
2010-07-18, 01:28 PM
I was hoping you'd found a way to swap them.
I never had the need or desire to. A good general list works at least 95% of the time. But there are plenty of ways. Scrolls and wands for low level spells, runestaffs and staffs for higher level spells. Low level scrolls barely cost anything, and staffs rarely run out of charges (no, they aren't actually money thrown away on something that disappears). I did grab lots of low level scrolls on my sorcerers, as they're so cheap and versatile.

Milskidasith
2010-07-18, 01:39 PM
Melee types have to have good STR and CON, and usually DEX. How is this different? You put 15 into Int, and then choose whether you'd like to focus on Save DCs or getting bonus spells. MAD is multi-attribute dependency; in this case, only one attribute is necessary, and the other two are powerful options.

Every class needs Con to some extent, but it doesn't have to be focused. Wizards need dex more than most melee fighters do. So basically, Wizards now need every stat but strength, while melee needs strength and just wants con and dex at decent levels (like casters do).

Kylarra
2010-07-18, 02:01 PM
...yeeeah. :PImplicitly saying something is rarely sufficient on the internet. You may have meant to imply what I said, but you did not say what I said.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 03:27 PM
Well, there's the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC from Complete Arcane (Sorcerers can qualify by way of the Arcane Preparation feat in the same book).

Under Magic/Psionics Transparency, Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) can be used to duplicate Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm). Under Magic/Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can be used to swap out spells known for Sorcerers.

Beat me to it. These are excellent ways to get sorcs some flexibility. Also, knowstones. Sorcerers are not weak, by any means. If you give them more rapid progression and bonus feats, they suddenly become tier 1. Eternal wands are also a lovely way to add access to those few low level spells you'll want to cast often...scrolls for the rare, situational things.


Wizards or sorcs are not MAD. Regardless of casting stat. See, the thing is, they don't actually need many skills. Traditionally, enough knowledge(arcana) to get into a PrC. Spellcraft. Probably some concentration. Everything else is gravy, and can be replaced by spells. Why train jump or climb when you can fly?

As a caster, you want enough con to not die during the early levels. Some dex is handy for touch attacks. The rest goes into pimping your casting stats. AC from dex is irrelevant, as AC doesnt scale, and its dwarfed in comparison to magic buffs anyhow. You dont need AC when you have mirror image. You don't care about wisdom much. Will is your strong save, and you have more magic defenses than melee already.

On the bright side, charisma does power UMD. Having that as a primary stat means easier access to divine wands.