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Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 09:18 AM
Reading up on the history of E6, it seems that originally, he had other progression options in addition to feats. Yknow, BaB, hit die, etc. It's just that his group always chose feats, so he simplified by disposing of the rest.

I like the idea of having other ways of progression as well...how would you add them?

Say, 5k xp seems fair for another BaB, but how much for another hit die? And would the player need to select a class to buy the BaB and hit die from?

Draz74
2010-07-18, 11:16 AM
Adding this sure seems similar to just saying, "We're playing D&D, but after level 6, your XP gets cut down to 10%." For me, it doesn't have the charm that E6 with just Feat advancement has.

Zovc
2010-07-18, 11:19 AM
Adding this sure seems similar to just saying, "We're playing D&D, but after level 6, your XP gets cut down to 10%." For me, it doesn't have the charm that E6 with just Feat advancement has.

Indeed, I think you're circumventing a lot of the elegance (and appeal) of E6 by allowing BAB improvements or anything else of that nature. The cool thing about feats is that they can only make you so much more powerful. If you let your players choose BAB and HD and so on, they are essentially still leveling up, just at a slower rate.

Edit: Also, where do you draw the line now? Do you let them progress class features for enough experience? Then why are you even using E6 in the first place?

Morph Bark
2010-07-18, 11:23 AM
Rather than that, you could have the option of, after level 6, you start turning into a Gestalt character, and you can "gestalt" with a PrC you qualify for at level 6, but your BAB, HD and caster levels of anything never rise above 6, though HD size can increase.

Hurlbut
2010-07-18, 11:46 AM
Rather than that, you could have the option of, after level 6, you start turning into a Gestalt character, and you can "gestalt" with a PrC you qualify for at level 6, but your BAB, HD and caster levels of anything never rise above 6, though HD size can increase.Except for that PrC can be broken down into a feat chain and they did just that; Prestige Feats (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_6/Character_Creation#Prestige_Feats)

Morph Bark
2010-07-18, 11:49 AM
Except for that PrC can be broken down into a feat chain and they did just that; Prestige Feats (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_6/Character_Creation#Prestige_Feats)

...which is only for a select few PrCs that are mostly crappy anyway.

Hurlbut
2010-07-18, 11:51 AM
...which is only for a select few PrCs that are mostly crappy anyway.Um? It show that you can convert the PrCs into feat chains not just the selected few. It isn't that hard to convert the PrC you want into prestige feat.

Morph Bark
2010-07-18, 12:01 PM
Um? It show that you can convert the PrCs into feat chains not just the selected few. It isn't that hard to convert the PrC you want into prestige feat.

Perhaps so. Some won't bother though.

And that still doesn't go against the idea of slowly turning Gestalt using base classes, unless you'd plan on making a system where characters are entirely made up of feats.

Hurlbut
2010-07-18, 12:05 PM
That's the second point behind E6; you increase your abilities further by the feats after 6th, M-Bark

Morph Bark
2010-07-18, 12:14 PM
That's the second point behind E6; you increase your abilities further by the feats after 6th, M-Bark

...and I think you just entirely missed my point.

Glimbur
2010-07-18, 12:26 PM
Rather than that, you could have the option of, after level 6, you start turning into a Gestalt character, and you can "gestalt" with a PrC you qualify for at level 6, but your BAB, HD and caster levels of anything never rise above 6, though HD size can increase.

I was in a game where, once we hit 6th level, we could start gestalting back at level one. So I could go Bard6//Crusader 1, then level again and take more crusader, and so on. The catch was that it cost the same XP to go to 6//1 as level 7 would, and it also made you ECL 7. So by the end you are ECL 12 with respect to how much XP you get per encounter but you are only 6//6, and it cost a lot of XP to get there. It was interesting, because you could get good things that way but feats are also very nice.

We mostly just acquired templates in-game instead though. Or changed races, Domovoi(Frostburn) is tempting for a bard when the racial HD land on the other side of your gestalt and the LA just adds ECL but doesn't limit your hit dice advancement in e6.

Mongoose87
2010-07-18, 12:48 PM
The only way I'd allow a BaB increase is a series of two Fighter-only and Monk-only capstone feats that each increase it by one each, since those two are the most fighting-focused classes, IMO (and the Monk sure deserves a bone).

Flickerdart
2010-07-18, 12:50 PM
The only way I'd allow a BaB increase is a series of two Fighter-only and Monk-only capstone feats that each increase it by one each, since those two are the most fighting-focused classes, IMO (and the Monk sure deserves a bone).
Really? The Monk is more focused on fighting than the Barbarian, or any other full-BAB class?

Zovc
2010-07-18, 12:51 PM
Really? The Monk is more focused on fighting than the Barbarian, or any other full-BAB class?

Dude, it gets Trap Sense.

Mongoose87
2010-07-18, 01:06 PM
Really? The Monk is more focused on fighting than the Barbarian, or any other full-BAB class?

The parentheses are important.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 12:07 PM
Rather than that, you could have the option of, after level 6, you start turning into a Gestalt character, and you can "gestalt" with a PrC you qualify for at level 6, but your BAB, HD and caster levels of anything never rise above 6, though HD size can increase.

I'd be cool with gestalting. For X xp, one of your regular levels becomes a gestalted level.

Turning PrCs into feat chains is also cool.

Psyx
2010-07-20, 12:17 PM
Allowing extra BAB et cetera is essentially nullifying the point of E6 though, surely?

If 5000xp = feat, then 1000xp = skill point and 800xp = 1HP (or a little over 1800xp, if you like Toughness).

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 12:29 PM
Not really. It gives you both slower progression, and a great deal more control over your progression.

Lets be honest, power doesn't cap out when you hit level 6 in standard E6...it just slows down. Buckets o' feats still provide power increases, just at a slower rate.

I don't think infinite additional hit die, BaB, etc would be appropriate...but perhaps enough available BaB options for say, the 3/4th BaB classes to pick up an iterative. Classes like ranger and rogue, which aren't amazing...and it certainly wouldnt break em.

Coplantor
2010-07-20, 12:32 PM
Rather than that, you could have the option of, after level 6, you start turning into a Gestalt character, and you can "gestalt" with a PrC you qualify for at level 6, but your BAB, HD and caster levels of anything never rise above 6, though HD size can increase.

We are planning to do something along this lines on our games. There are three kinds of characters, common characters level up to 6th level and roll for stats in order, also, they can uso only low tier classes (our current game is about three commoners:smallbiggrin:), heroic characters level up to 6 and have 18; 16; 14; 12; 10; 8 to distribute among their stats, they can use PC classes though mid to low tiers are recommended. Legends level up to 8th level and they get 18; 16; 14; 14; 12; 10 for atributes.

Once you hit your maximum level cap, you go gestalt, by starting to level up a different class from the same tier you were before or one above. Each run you unlock a new tier and every two "runs" you can make an in game test to see if your new class can be a PrC.

Experienced legends can be extremely powerful, reaching 8th level on different classes in a world where most people go up to 6 in low tiers classes.

Mongoose87
2010-07-20, 12:40 PM
Not really. It gives you both slower progression, and a great deal more control over your progression.

Lets be honest, power doesn't cap out when you hit level 6 in standard E6...it just slows down. Buckets o' feats still provide power increases, just at a slower rate.

I don't think infinite additional hit die, BaB, etc would be appropriate...but perhaps enough available BaB options for say, the 3/4th BaB classes to pick up an iterative. Classes like ranger and rogue, which aren't amazing...and it certainly wouldnt break em.

1. It does create a cap. Yes, the cap isn't at 6th level, but, after a while, feats stop making you more powerful and just make you more versatile.

2. I really don't like the possibility of iteratives for 3/4 BaB classes, because E6 makes that one iterative atack actually special, since only full BaB classes get it.

3. Rangers have full BaB.

valadil
2010-07-20, 12:43 PM
Rather than that, you could have the option of, after level 6, you start turning into a Gestalt character, and you can "gestalt" with a PrC you qualify for at level 6, but your BAB, HD and caster levels of anything never rise above 6, though HD size can increase.

I've thought about this, but never actually run it. I really like the idea of continuing to gestalt, taking a third and fourth class in parallel upon hitting what would be 18 and 24. Maybe when I get bored of 4e I'll try this.

Oslecamo
2010-07-20, 12:44 PM
1. It does create a cap. Yes, the cap isn't at 6th level, but, after a while, feats stop making you more powerful and just make you more versatile.


Well depends on how much splatbooks you have. Magic of incarnum by itself offers dozes of feat choices to buff your character trough soulmelds.

A factotum could actualy keep stacking fountain of inspiration over and over to become exponentially stronger (as each new fountain of inspiration gives more extra points).

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 12:51 PM
My bad, replace ranger with monk. Which is also not overpowered.

Make +1 BaB available exactly twice. So, 3/4th BaB can get it, full BaB can get attack bonus if they want, but half BaB classes do not. The only potential class I can think of that might be overpowered with this is druid...but hell, druid is always overpowered. I suppose you could limit it to not casting classes, if you wished.

As for power capping out...I give you, metamagic. Consider the effect of arcane thesis, an assortment of CL boosters, a wide range of metamagics, and everything else that boosts the damage of a spell. Snowcasting, etc. HP never cap out, thanks to toughness. Damage caps on spells are removable. Limits on total number of spells can be increased indefinitely. Why not let melee increase too? Granted, all these increase much slower than in traditional D&D, but thats part of E6.

Third and fourth gestalts in parallel also strikes me as an interesting option.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-20, 12:52 PM
A factotum could actualy keep stacking fountain of inspiration over and over to become exponentially stronger (as each new fountain of inspiration gives more extra points).

He'd be capped by his Int bonus, though, so he'd have to start branching out at some point.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 01:02 PM
At some point. Assume a starting 18, 2 racial, 1 level up, 4 enhancement(dunno how to get 6 in E6), and 3 from ye olde efreeti, and that's a possible 9 times he can take that feat, for a total of 45 bonus inspiration points. IE, far more than he'll ever need in an encounter, given that it only takes four to avoid certain death.

And those are hardly the only feats a factotum can take to increase power.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-20, 01:12 PM
At some point. Assume a starting 18, 2 racial, 1 level up, 4 enhancement(dunno how to get 6 in E6), and 3 from ye olde efreeti, and that's a possible 9 times he can take that feat, for a total of 45 bonus inspiration points. IE, far more than he'll ever need in an encounter, given that it only takes four to avoid certain death.

And those are hardly the only feats a factotum can take to increase power.

Very true. Oslecamo responded to Mongoose's "there's a cap at some point" with "FoI is an exponential progression," so I was just pointing out that you can't keep stacking that one feat ad infinitum, but that says nothing about the myriad of other ways to gain extra power from feats such as the aforementioned metamagic and Shape Soulmeld accumulation.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 01:19 PM
Well, hp is indefinite, anyhow.

Skills and saves are not indefinite, but there are a great many options to boost them. It's not implausible that you could stack them quite high.

I believe Luck feats have one you can take indefinitely for additional luck points, so those scale indefinitely. Useful for stuff like rerolling 1s on saves.

The question is mostly, what sort of options stop scaling first? Those are likely the bits that need additional feats or feat-like choices in E6.

Theodoxus
2010-07-20, 02:23 PM
I'm taking a page from AD&D and allowing 'original' multiclassing in my next campaign - which is loosely based on E6.

If you single class, you can get to 10th, if you multiclass X//Y, you can get to 8th, and multiclassing X//Y//Z is limited to 6th.

XP is also divided, ala AD&D, though I'm using the D20 CR charts, so even a triple classed character would hit 6//6//6 by the time a single class would be hitting 10th.

I'm probably also going to limit multiclassing to the iconic 'fighter/magic-user/thief' paradigm, so no Wizard//Sorcerers, for instance (or even Wizard//Psion). Not sure if I'm limiting the range of classes themselves though... but at this point, there are far more "magic-users" than fighters or thief like classes...

I'm still working out the kinks, but so far, it's looking promising.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 02:32 PM
Honestly, I'd rather make a barbarian//sorcerer than say, a wizard//sorcerer from a sheer power standpoint. More benefits. Different good save, juicy hp boost, etc. More spells is aright, but you quickly get more spells than you need anyhow.

Coplantor
2010-07-20, 02:36 PM
I, on the other hand, would make a Conjurer//Sorceror with the Sorc part covering the chools I droped to get my conjuring goodies. Also, abrupt jaunt and still get a familir from sorc :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 02:39 PM
Familiars are toxic little balls of fur that exist only to cost you xp when they die. Avoiding them is a plus.

It's the same basic problem as the theurges...more spells available is nifty, but just one casting class gets you #largenumber of spells, and you still only have the same number of rounds to cast it.

Coplantor
2010-07-20, 02:43 PM
Yes, but theurge cuts down my CL and maximum level of spells, here? Not so much. Plus, I get both prepared and spontaneous, I would pump int up and have the minumum charisma to cast the sorc spells.

Also, I think you are understimating familiars. There are some nifty tricks with them you know?

Zovc
2010-07-20, 02:52 PM
I, on the other hand, would make a Conjurer//Sorceror with the Sorc part covering the chools I droped to get my conjuring goodies. Also, abrupt jaunt and still get a familir from sorc :smallbiggrin:

I get the feeling Beguiler is a lot better than Sorcerer here. :smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 02:53 PM
Yes, but theurge cuts down my CL and maximum level of spells, here? Not so much. Plus, I get both prepared and spontaneous, I would pump int up and have the minumum charisma to cast the sorc spells.

Also, I think you are understimating familiars. There are some nifty tricks with them you know?

CL is fixable by a single feat.

Im not saying it's not a viable choice, I just believe you gain more from the traditional mix of gestalt builds. One active, one passive.

Eh, pretty much limited to things like touch attacks and such. A wizard//barbarian or the like can deliver touch attacks with near impunity.

Coplantor
2010-07-20, 02:55 PM
Yeah, beguiler was my other choice, but sorc have access to more spells so I can just pick the ones I would need from any of the two (or three) banned schools.
Though a better BAB, new abilities and better HD is quite tempting.

EDIT:@^ Touch attacks? Other than enervation I wont be using much of those.:smalltongue:

jiriku
2010-07-20, 03:42 PM
Also, I think you are understimating familiars. There are some nifty tricks with them you know?

Indeed, the wizard can be thought of as a mere keeper for his familiar, a ferocious beast that races for to devour foes or slash them to pieces in its claws.

zakkain
2010-07-20, 03:46 PM
Do you feel that Tome of Battle content is overpowered in E6? Especially if the campaign world is low-magic with no wizards/sorcerers/clerics/druids? I feel that it is, but at the same time its very useful to give melee characters some variety.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 03:49 PM
Crusader is quite strong for the first level or two. Probably one of the best classes at level one.

At level 6? Nah.

Person_Man
2010-07-20, 04:05 PM
Incarnum is based primarily on Hit Dice. So increasing it would make MoI horribly unbalanced in E6. You could also take Practiced Caster or Practiced Manifester, which are based on hit die, to increase your caster/manifester level. This would greatly bump up their respective abilities, especially for psionics.

BAB fuels Power Attack. At BAB +6 the Power Attack tree is very useful (this is when Shock Trooper and Leap Attack kick in). Not that far above ECL 6, and you begin to be able to one-shot pretty much anything with a Pounce. So increasing BAB would make most melee builds unbalanced in E6.

I could go on. Suffice to say, E6 works because it limits the optimization factor of D&D. Remove that limit, and you might as well be playing normal D&D.