*Haven* The Disciples of Andraste In Middle Earth

[ArlEammon]

How dangerous would the Disciples of Andraste be in Middle Earth? Let's say they start out near Dunedain territory. Maybe they can get Dunedain to join.
__________________

[The Glyphstone]

For those of us who don't know who the Disciples are, can you give us a bit of background?

[ArlEammon]

Spoilers below
The Cult of Andraste believes a dragon they worship is the reincarnation of Andraste, the Prophet warrioress of the Chantry religion in Dragon Age.
They have powers, and blood magic from the High Dragon in exchange for protecting it's young.

[Waldo Flows]

What time period are we talking about? That very much figures into the calculations.

*sigh*

Why can vs. threads never be well laid-out.

[ArlEammon]

3rd Age, right before the War Of the Ring

[Zevox]

...the group that sits around on their mountain never doing anything and never wanting anything to do with outsiders? What exactly do you expect them to do that would be "dangerous?" :smallconfused:

Zevox

[WalkingTarget]

Spoilers below
The Cult of Andraste believes a dragon they worship is the reincarnation of Andraste, the Prophet warrioress of the Chantry religion in Dragon Age.
They have powers, and blood magic from the High Dragon in exchange for protecting it's young.

Anything having to do with dragons, especially worshiping one, is likely to throw up a big red flag for any of the free peoples of Middle-earth. Tolkienian dragons are, without exception, evil and foul things developed by the Enemy as engines of destruction.

What are these "powers, and blood magic" capable of? Middle-earth doesn't have a lot of active magic running around, at least not in the hands of the good guys.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The Cult's reavers have the ability to absorb energy from the recently deceased, drawing health from nearby corpses. They also can present a terrifying visage to frighten away opponents, create an aura of psychic pain that hurts both them and anyone around them, and they get more powerful the closer to death they are.

They gain these from drinking dragon blood, which they believe causes their ancestors to whisper in their head. They also develop a slavish devotion to the dragon they drank from, usually resulting in them acting as guards for the dragon's young.

[Waldo Flows]

What are these "powers, and blood magic" capable of? Middle-earth doesn't have a lot of active magic running around, at least not in the hands of the good guys.
Basically in-game, what you get to be able to do:
Reavers (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Reaver) get to heal from the life energy of newly-slain corpses, look really scary (opponents need to pass a check or cower with fear), constantly take damage, but also deal damage to nearby enemies, and deal increased damage as health drops.

Blood mages (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_mage) get to cast spells using health instead of magic, suck health from allies, boil enemies blood in their veins, and mind-control them.

How you would translate this into fluff is up to you.

[Mewtarthio]

Dragon blood doesn't give you the Blood Mage stuff, though. You need to already be a mage to use blood magic, and that's something that's very rare in Middle Earth (plus, you know, Middle Earth doesn't have the Fade, so transposing Dragon Age magic into it is nonsensical).

[Waldo Flows]

(plus, you know, Middle Earth doesn't have the Fade, so transposing Dragon Age magic into it is nonsensical).
This is the sort of pedantry that makes vs. threads a drag.

[Athaniar]

Do they need to keep drinking the blood in order to keep their powers? Because if that's the case, they'll be significantly weakened (unless there are more dragons in Arda I don't know about).

[WalkingTarget]

Ok, so what I'm hearing makes me think that it's unlikely that the people in the north west of Middle-earth would have anything to do with these guys and I don't think they've have much luck getting any of the Dunadain (or Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, or the men of Rohan or Dale) to join up.

The Reavers sound pretty nasty, though. We've seen what beings capable of projecting fear can do to a fighting force already (Nazgul) and if there's a lot more than 9 of them, that might be hard to deal with. They sound more vulnerable than the Nazgul, but the ability to self heal means that fighting large numbers of mooks is probably not beyond their capabilities. Of course, I haven't played the game they're from, so haven't seen how this works out in practice.

Looking at the Blood Mages, the fact that they get combat-ready spells at all is the major factor - way more important than the fact that they get to use health instead of mana or whatever.

I'd say, in response to the OP's initial question, that they'd be very dangerous, but their ability to do anything noteworthy in Middle-earth depends on their numbers and how well-organized they are.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Do they need to keep drinking the blood in order to keep their powers? Because if that's the case, they'll be significantly weakened (unless there are more dragons in Arda I don't know about).
For Reavers, it's a one-sip deal as far as I can tell.

[Optimystik]

Do they get their Dragon? Without that they don't have a prayer. Even with "Andraste" they'll just be slightly harder to crack. You can beat all of them and their dragon too without casting a single spell.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'd say, in response to the OP's initial question, that they'd be very dangerous, but their ability to do anything noteworthy in Middle-earth depends on their numbers and how well-organized they are.
If that's the case, they wouldn't be that dangerous at all. They're basically the fighting arm of a small, secretive cult that only exists in a single village that is already rarely visited because of its remote location high in the mountains and they generally only use their powers to help them kill the occasional outsider that comes snooping around. Though they have been known to plant members in the outside world, usually to replace outsiders they've killed. These hidden cultists generally serve as another means of keeping outsiders from looking for their village, deflecting questions from people about the place and sending people searching either for missing people or for the village itself into traps.

The Disciples aren't all that dangerous as long as they're left alone, and even if they aren't, they wouldn't mobilize unless the dragon they serve went someplace else, prompting them to follow it. Though given how High Dragons from Dragon Age are animalistic predators that can range pretty far searching for food, that can be a problem. If the dragon were to stake out a large area of territory, the cultists would likely try to convert or kill the people currently living there, though the dragon likely would do most of the work anyway.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Do they get their Dragon? Without that they don't have a prayer. Even with "Andraste" they'll just be slightly harder to crack. You can beat all of them and their dragon too without casting a single spell.
That's true too. A group of four well-trained heroes can massacre the entire cult, the dragon they serve and the dragon's brood without breaking a sweat. If the Cult went up against The Fellowship, it wouldn't be a contest. The Fellowship would win. Even without Gandalf.

[doliest]

As with all inclusions of things from a video game, what the main characters can do should not be taken as an interpretation of strength. The Fellowship is, for all intents and purposes, dead unless they have Gandalf if we're talking pre-getting a large army.

[Optimystik]

As with all inclusions of things from a video game, what the main characters can do should not be taken as an interpretation of strength. The Fellowship is, for all intents and purposes, dead unless they have Gandalf if we're talking pre-getting a large army.

What the secondary cast lacks in power, they make up for in numbers. Arrows and swords can slay the cult and dragon, thus the forces of Middle-Earth can win. Bringing the Solars Istari into the picture just makes things more lopsided.

[Waldo Flows]

As with all inclusions of things from a video game, what the main characters can do should not be taken as an interpretation of strength.

For bioware-style rpgs, what happens in-game is a fair representation of strength. That's because it's a series of smaller encounters, in which your 4 guys fight 6-8 of their guys. At any rate, the cultists are basically on par with your standard soldier in the dragon age setting, plus their extra abilities, and the dragon age setting is a bit more liberal with it's armor than middle earth, where maille is still kind of a big deal. So you have a gaggle of guys with heavy armor and special abilies, but only average combat skill. They'd be a tough nut to crack, but ultimately wouldn't last long if anyone seriously threw some effort into wiping them out.

[doliest]

On the other hand, one can't discount the advantage of a large blue dragon raining down on people. Not to mention outsidse of the game I can't see them spacing themselves out in small groups as oppose to using their entire force. :smallwink:

[snoopy13a]

On the other hand, one can't discount the advantage of a large blue dragon raining down on people. Not to mention outsidse of the game I can't see them spacing themselves out in small groups as oppose to using their entire force. :smallwink:

Dragons stand no chance against Bard the Bowman :smallsmile:

[Waldo Flows]

On the other hand, one can't discount the advantage of a large blue dragon raining down on people. Not to mention outsidse of the game I can't see them spacing themselves out in small groups as oppose to using their entire force. :smallwink:
Dragon Age dragons aren't particularly dangerous. Dangerous, sure, but still reasonably expected to be able to be taken down by a few well-trained individuals, and that's the really high-tier ones (Archdemons). Dragons in middle earth are implausibly huge and more or less impervious to most weapons.

[FoE]

The Disciples of Andraste aren't particularly dangerous unless you slip into their home base. (In which case, it's "KILL ALL INTRUDERS ON SIGHT.")

When the High Dragon leaves its lair and rampages across Ferelden like a hurricane, however, you can bet it does a lot of damage.

Is a High Dragon more dangerous than Smaug? Hard to say. But I tell ya, the High Dragon sure didn't die after getting stuck with one arrow, weak spot or no.

[Waldo Flows]

Is a High Dragon more dangerous than Smaug? Hard to say. But I tell ya, the High Dragon sure didn't die after getting stuck with one arrow, weak spot or no.
Maybe not, but it also isn't impervious to normal weapons like smaug was (excepting his weak spot, of course). An archdemon is quite a bit more dangerous than a high dragon, but can still be injured or even killed (just not permanently) by normal men wielding normal weapons. Normal dragons in dragon age, while certainly nasty pieces of work, are still essentially extremely nasty critters.
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/332/2/8/Dragon_age_high_dragon_1_by_Sickpete.jpg
It's large, but probably killed with moderately more difficulty than a troll or an oliphaunt or a "fell beast".

Compared to smaug, who went out and smashed half of a mountain down for giggles.

[shadow_archmagi]

As with all inclusions of things from a video game, what the main characters can do should not be taken as an interpretation of strength. The Fellowship is, for all intents and purposes, dead unless they have Gandalf if we're talking pre-getting a large army.


So you're measuring a videogame against a non-videogame? That seems rather skewed, as, you know, video game characters tend to be decidedly over the top.

[Drascin]

Compared to smaug, who went out and smashed half of a mountain down for giggles.

And that if we just go by Smaug, who was pretty much a last descendant and a pretty kiddy guy in terms of Middle Earth Dragons. Okay, so he was many-times-removed descended from this guy (http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u262/drascin/1269809849769.jpg), if I remember correctly, so that's still some pretty good credentials and pedigree, but still - the least of Middle Earth dragons are much more imposing, huge, and smart creatures than the dragons in Dragon Age (which are really more or less glorified lizards, and really a lot less dangerous boss encounters than, say, any kind of big mage in-game. Really, my general reaction to dragons in that game was "what, dead already?", excepting the Archdemon).

So I'm honestly putting my money on the Middle-earthers :smalltongue:

[Rivus]

Religion isn't a strong suit in Middle Earth. Or rather, the entire mythology is wrapped up in a single, universal, pantheon.

The magic system alone would be a huge mess - MiddleEarth is very low-magic. The disciples would either have little magic at their disposal, or too much compared to even the elves...

I just don't see how these two can come together.

[WalkingTarget]

Religion isn't a strong suit in Middle Earth. Or rather, the entire mythology is wrapped up in a single, universal, pantheon.

The magic system alone would be a huge mess - MiddleEarth is very low-magic. The disciples would either have little magic at their disposal, or too much compared to even the elves...

I just don't see how these two can come together.

Easy, don't try to mesh the metaphysics, just say that the Andraste people have access to abilities they have in the game. It's not like there haven't been entities in Middle-earth that set themselves up as gods and gave power to their followers. Sure the mechanism isn't the same, but there's precedent.

Blasty magic might be OP in Middle-earth, but it doesn't sound like there's a hell of a lot of these guys, so the sheer weight of numbers they'd be up against if they're discovered would be a problem for them.

[Zevox]

Easy, don't try to mesh the metaphysics, just say that the Andraste people have access to abilities they have in the game. It's not like there haven't been entities in Middle-earth that set themselves up as gods and gave power to their followers. Sure the mechanism isn't the same, but there's precedent.
Of course, in Arda, those entities tended to actually be gods (Morgoth/Sauron), unlike the Dragon that the cultists worship, which is basically just a really big, strong animal.

Zevox

[WalkingTarget]

Of course, in Arda, those entities tended to actually be gods (Morgoth/Sauron), unlike the Dragon that the cultists worship, which is basically just a really big, strong animal.

Zevox

Well, yeah, but this particular big, strong animal apparently grants powers to it's followers. That was my point.

Though, technically, the Valar/Maiar aren't gods either (they're not deities, they are stewards of the setting's deity). Claiming to be "gods" and being deserving of worship is overstepping their authority. I like splitting hairs. :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

Well, yeah, but this particular big, strong animal apparently grants powers to it's followers. That was my point.

Though, technically, the Valar/Maiar aren't gods either (they're not deities, they are stewards of the setting's deity). Claiming to be "gods" and being deserving of worship is overstepping their authority. I like splitting hairs. :smalltongue:
The Silmarillion said that humans often called them gods, and Manwe was said to be the "King of Arda" or something to that effect, and they were there to shape and rule over the world. That to me says that they qualify as gods, making Eru an overgod, like Ao from the Forgotten Realms.

Zevox

[WalkingTarget]

The Silmarillion said that humans often called them gods, and Manwe was said to be the "King of Arda" or something to that effect, and they were there to shape and rule over the world. That to me says that they qualify as gods, making Eru an overgod, like Ao from the Forgotten Realms.

Zevox

The Powers were given authority over Arda (the world) and it's natural development, but not over the Children of Iluvatar directly.

I think we're just at cross purposes as to what the word "god" entails. I don't dispute that they fill the same role in that they have dominion over natural processes (sky, sea, the Smith, light, plants and animals, etc) but they lack the authority over the sapient inhabitants of the world that, to me, is an important quality for a deity to have. Nobody worships the (good) Valar. The Elves weren't ordered to go to Aman, they were (for the most part) persuaded. Feanor wasn't commanded to give up the Silmarils to restore the Trees, he was asked and he was free to refuse.

[Zevox]

The Powers were given authority over Arda (the world) and it's natural development, but not over the Children of Iluvatar directly.

I think we're just at cross purposes as to what the word "god" entails. I don't dispute that they fill the same role in that they have dominion over natural processes (sky, sea, the Smith, light, plants and animals, etc) but they lack the authority over the sapient inhabitants of the world that, to me, is an important quality for a deity to have. Nobody worships the (good) Valar. The Elves weren't ordered to go to Aman, they were (for the most part) persuaded. Feanor wasn't commanded to give up the Silmarils to restore the Trees, he was asked and he was free to refuse.
True, but I guess I just don't see that as completely necessary to qualify as a god. Plus it is true that many Elves do revere the Valar (consider the song that the group heading to the Grey Havens sings to Varda in The Lord of the Rings), even if not in a worshipful manner, and the fact that we're told men call them gods implies there are likely some who similarly revere them.

Zevox

[WalkingTarget]

True, but I guess I just don't see that as completely necessary to qualify as a god. Plus it is true that many Elves do revere the Valar (consider the song that the group heading to the Grey Havens sings to Varda in The Lord of the Rings), even if not in a worshipful manner, and the fact that we're told men call them gods implies there are likely some who similarly revere them.

Zevox

Yeah, they are held in high-regard. I suppose the fact that Men had plenty of time after their awakening before they encountered the Elves (and therefore any knowledge of the Valar or of Eru beyond any incidental interaction with the Enemy's version of things) that they'd have plenty of time to come up with their own superstitions that would confuse matters.

I dunno. I'm coming at this stuff from a heavily mythological mindset and who's worshiping whom tends to be important in such stories. I think we've probably derailed the topic enough for now, though, since this has just been a tangent on definitions rather than something that'd actually have a bearing on the topic. Truce? :smallsmile:

[Zevox]

I think we've probably derailed the topic enough for now, though, since this has just been a tangent on definitions rather than something that'd actually have a bearing on the topic. Truce? :smallsmile:
Of course. :smallsmile:

Zevox