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ExtravagantEvil
2010-07-18, 11:55 AM
Good Morning, A friend of mine wants to play a solo epic campaign, I have the Epic level Handbook, and I earnestly would enjoy heading such a campaign, but I'm not entirely sure how to run an Epic game. Truly, I have never done this before, and am not sure what plots to use (I eternally think Arch fiend centric plots, which I could use help constructing), and how to design challenges for PC's when he has Epic Spells (if he chooses to cast, probably will) that can nearly destroy anything but applied Phlebotnium. I am aware of the Epic rules, and so on, its just that I could use game planning assistance and guidance.

Flickerdart
2010-07-18, 12:06 PM
Epic doesn't actually work. With abuse, Epic Spells are unbeatable - he can make himself more powerful than any gods. Without abuse, they're terrible, as the costs are too high for what you get and there are just not enough things that spells let you do (the sample spells have many ad-hoc adjustments anyway). The melee Epic feats are scarcely worth the title.

Aroka
2010-07-18, 12:17 PM
Discussion and ideas here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160347). The paradigm of high-level D&D is different, and you have to prepare for that.

A solo campaign will be easier, because you'll have a far easier time keeping on top of what the PC can do.

The main bit is to really think epic. Epic characters don't just go into dungeons to fight monsters for their petty cash. Epic characters fight mad gods and legendary monsters trying to destroy nations, defeat armies, forge peace, make war, and change the world. You have to think big, and keep thinking big.

Get a good handle of what sort of challenges are trivial to the character. Usually, this will mean most physical problems (traps, gates, walls, mazes, etc.). Try to think of ways to challenge the character in different kinds of arenas - the social, the intellectual, the moral, the strategic, the political.

Also, a quick & dirty fix for epic spells: in Lost Empires of Faerūn, the example epic spells (or the mythal, anyway) only seem to apply the DC mitigation to the final DC. Cost and time of development are calculated without mitigation. This will put a big limit on them, especially if you can make sure the PC doesn't have infinite time to work on them. ("Variable time pocket dimensions? Sorry, those don't exist, hahaha.")

Be aware, though, that the actual epic level rules suck hard.

Glimbur
2010-07-18, 12:21 PM
Think grander. Dungeon crawls don't work without serious plotomancy: teleport and power attack mean that mundane walls are an inconvenience at most. Likewise, the classic rescue operation is simple if you know where to go. Everyone is a lot more mobile and better at gathering intel than you might be used to.

This mobility also means they don't have to care. A selfish epic character can simply plane-shift away from a local danger. To motivate such a character requires people with resources to be interested in them specifically. Maybe the forces of Good try to recruit them and Evil tries to recruit or kill them.

It's tricky to find a balance of getting the characters involved but giving them some free reign too. A low level party can be motivated by a tribe of orcs encircling the city they are in. An epic party can simply plane-shift or teleport away from a tribe of tarrasques encircling the city they are in.

tl;dr Teleport and plane shift and scrying and metafaculty and such mean that mobility and intelligence gathering are both prodigious. Plan accordingly.

Dragonfire
2010-07-18, 12:58 PM
Aroka is correct about thinking big, instead of dungeons for example have the player leading an army into the abyss to sack it.

ExtravagantEvil
2010-07-18, 01:52 PM
Interesting, ok, so here's what I was thinking for a good start or two:

1. A competition of warriors/spell casters: Basically a dueling tournament that calls some of the best warriors in all the universe, and the PC gets an invite, a prodigious award awaits the victor, and the title of best mage in the multiverse (I go by high level casters are incredibly rare so there are about 20 in the entire multiverse invited, only abut 5 can cast an epic spell anyways.
2. Then, it flows into a battle against the 9 Hells, not sure how I can introduce that, I'm thinking he could, during the tournament he could find out that the Archfiends are going to corrupt the winner, or something along that line of thinking.

Basically, it will allow said PC to revel in the destruction of countless individuals and flaunt his spell casting and draw him into a plot that can have manipulations and intrigue.

Bagelz
2010-07-19, 12:12 PM
Q: how does one run an epic level game?
A: very very carefully.

1: at this point your players are either a unbeatable master at one aspect (bluff high enough to lie to a god, hide good enough to be undetectable in plain sight, spells that destroy worlds, or make you invincible for an extended duration. BAB differences that either always hit, or always miss (sometimes both in the same party), AC that either 30's-40's or 80+ (always get hit or always don't get hit). And charge crits that deal more damage than players have hp.)

biggest thing to remember is that everything your players can do, you can do also (and the reverse is true too).
Don't rely on the hit points of a monster (you will always estimate wrong). End the encounter when it seems appropriate.


Be creative. The trick is not to outpower your players, its to get them to problem solve. How do they locate the invisible assassin, how do they kill the thing with 300 fast healing, how do they kill the monster without killing the princess (or kingdom) in it's belly ect.

Otodetu
2010-07-19, 04:57 PM
I think political games are the best, and never start at epic level, work your way up to it, let the player start at level 10, and present the player with a rapid character advancement up to level 20, weave the plot and motivation of the player into this.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-28, 12:21 AM
Good Morning, A friend of mine wants to play a solo epic campaign, I have the Epic level Handbook, and I earnestly would enjoy heading such a campaign, but I'm not entirely sure how to run an Epic game. Truly, I have never done this before, and am not sure what plots to use (I eternally think Arch fiend centric plots, which I could use help constructing), and how to design challenges for PC's when he has Epic Spells (if he chooses to cast, probably will) that can nearly destroy anything but applied Phlebotnium. I am aware of the Epic rules, and so on, its just that I could use game planning assistance and guidance.

Other than the fact they take heaping loads of gold and time AND a jacked Spellcraft check to even be remotely doable? And even then, you could roll a 1.

Kaww
2010-08-28, 12:35 AM
Other than the fact they take heaping loads of gold and time AND a jacked Spellcraft check to even be remotely doable? And even then, you could roll a 1.

Nat 1 on a check is not an automatic fail, nat 20 is not an automatic success...

If you need dice to beat a DC at epic lvls you did something wrong...

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 12:42 AM
Yeah, the numbers are so astronomical that success or failure need never be in that small range where the die roll would actually matter. In fact, it'd normally be fairly silly to make an epic spell that you can't guarantee hitting the DC of.

If you did, though, you could just make another epic spell that would boost you until you would automatically hit that DC. Whatever that DC is.

If that sounds bad or scary, then epic is not for you. Epic is a massive game of xanatos speed chess, in which the rules of the universe are negotiable.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-28, 12:49 AM
Yeah, the numbers are so astronomical that success or failure need never be in that small range where the die roll would actually matter. In fact, it'd normally be fairly silly to make an epic spell that you can't guarantee hitting the DC of.

If you did, though, you could just make another epic spell that would boost you until you would automatically hit that DC. Whatever that DC is.

If that sounds bad or scary, then epic is not for you. Epic is a massive game of xanatos speed chess, in which the rules of the universe are negotiable.

"I find that 'fensive"

I've played in many an epic game. =\

But the thing is that the spells take time and money to complete, so beat him to the chase. "There's always something bigger and badder than you"
There's an even more powerful mage, and do you think he wants other people to have that kind of power, too?
These are some ways to deal with people who try to abuse epic level spells, if they're just doing really cool epic stuff without making them so nigh-unkillable that you have to fiat everything, then you have no need to do something about it.

Or use my old Dark Sun DM's golden rule. There will ALWAYS be something more powerful, there are monsters that will always hit, always make their saving throws, so you gotta use your brain when you make them super-awesome spells.

Anyways, that's all I can think of for the epic game... It's 1:50 here and I've been working all day.

EDIT:

Nat 1 on a check is not an automatic fail, nat 20 is not an automatic success...

If you need dice to beat a DC at epic lvls you did something wrong...

Yeah, I know that... but adding all those nice things adds to the DC, and if you really want to boost your spellcraft to do those crazy things, it's gunna take heaping wads of gold, a lot of time, and who's to say the beings that keep order of the multiverse aren't already after you, or aren't already beating you to a pulp?

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 12:56 AM
"I find that 'fensive"

I've played in many an epic game. =\

I've played in a few. The power levels are...quite high. It can be done, but it requires a great deal of preparation and experience on the part of the DM, and it can be quite crazy at times.


But the thing is that the spells take time and money to complete, so beat him to the chase.

Ah, but mitigation not only mitigates the DC, it also mitigates both of those. It's a really nasty spiral because once you start mitigating, there's really no reason to stop.

The same is true of stacking ever larger buffs, of course. And the worst part is, that bit even kind of makes sense.


"There's always something bigger and badder than you"
There's an even more powerful mage, and do you think he wants other people to have that kind of power, too?
These are some ways to deal with people who try to abuse epic level spells, if they're just doing really cool epic stuff without making them so nigh-unkillable that you have to fiat everything, then you have no need to do something about it.

True enough. The main problem with the epic system is that unless you engage in a certain level of shenanigans, lots of things(like epic spellcasting in general) are mostly a waste of time. And once you start, there's no terribly obvious point that's appropriate.

I LIKE the idea of a spell creation system, Im just not thrilled with the results of epic spell creation.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-28, 01:02 AM
I've played in a few. The power levels are...quite high. It can be done, but it requires a great deal of preparation and experience on the part of the DM, and it can be quite crazy at times.



Ah, but mitigation not only mitigates the DC, it also mitigates both of those. It's a really nasty spiral because once you start mitigating, there's really no reason to stop.

The same is true of stacking ever larger buffs, of course. And the worst part is, that bit even kind of makes sense.



True enough. The main problem with the epic system is that unless you engage in a certain level of shenanigans, lots of things(like epic spellcasting in general) are mostly a waste of time. And once you start, there's no terribly obvious point that's appropriate.

I LIKE the idea of a spell creation system, Im just not thrilled with the results of epic spell creation.

Indeed, our DM did something where he made the "seeds" epic artifacts that would be collected, then you'd be an effective master at that type of spellcasting, and more than likely, you'd have to beat the current holder of it or retrieve it. That may add some sort of balance, thoughts? He also made psionic seeds.

0Megabyte
2010-08-28, 01:10 AM
If you want the epic feel, take a look at SilverClawShift's campaign journals. Those have the feeling of epic... even though the characters are much lower level. In the Crystal Cantrips campaign, higher level skills like teleporting, etc, are basically the only reason the heroes can even survive, much less actually win. They don't easily overcome the opposition because the opposition is so far beyond what's normal that even an epic-level character would have huge trouble in battle.

That's what epic should look like, at least.

Milskidasith
2010-08-28, 01:17 AM
If you want the epic feel, take a look at SilverClawShift's campaign journals. Those have the feeling of epic... even though the characters are much lower level. In the Crystal Cantrips campaign, higher level skills like teleporting, etc, are basically the only reason the heroes can even survive, much less actually win. They don't easily overcome the opposition because the opposition is so far beyond what's normal that even an epic-level character would have huge trouble in battle.

That's what epic should look like, at least.

Reading SCS's campaigns, while yes, they are very well done, saying "An epic level character would have huge trouble" is simply not true. Nothing that can, by the numbers, be killed by anybody pre-epic can pose a threat to epic characters. I would call the power gap astronomical, except since epic level characters can probably destroy or recreate the entirety of the visible universe on a whim, astronomical is much too small a term.

Kaww
2010-08-28, 02:30 AM
"
Yeah, I know that... but adding all those nice things adds to the DC, and if you really want to boost your spellcraft to do those crazy things, it's gunna take heaping wads of gold, a lot of time, and who's to say the beings that keep order of the multiverse aren't already after you, or aren't already beating you to a pulp?

Isn't there a ring that gives you +30 spellcraft? At lvl 20 you have 23 ranks, if you are a wizard you have int ~32, knowledge arcana 5+...

This is 66 (no dice) + 1d20

icefractal
2010-08-28, 02:58 AM
Actually, a solo epic campaign should be easier than a group one in a significant way - the one PC is automatically balanced with himself.

I've found that a big problem with Epic levels is that it's not at all apparent what the reference point should be. An enigmatic world shaper that stays in his own private plane and adventures by Astral Projection, assisted by legions of bound demons/dragons/celestials is a fairly straightforward possibility. So is someone who's doing pretty much the same thing they did at 10th level, with a bit bigger numbers and some shinier gear.

But they are not compatible with each-other, and different parts of the Epic rules seem to support one or the other. On the one hand, you have Epic Spellcasting (the part where you make yourself incredibly potent and immune to nigh-everything), and monsters like a living sphere of annihilation, a primal elemental, or an undead god thing. On the other hand, you have Epic Spellcasting (the part where you can, with great cost and time, replicate the 3rd level spell Fireball), and feats like Epic Weapon Focus (wow, +1 to hit :smallconfused: ).

So I guess an important step to running a campaign is to determine where you want the baseline to be.

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-28, 07:58 AM
what they said

epic is the point where even if they are nonopt they have done enough things to be noticed by the worlds above and below and in between. god's demons and governments either want to be you, be with you, or be dancing on your grave.

if you are noncaster or a partial caster, things get harder as you are actually hard presed to handle truly epic challenges without one. but you also get high on the list of the extra people an epic npc caster might tap to aid in his campaigns against his enemies.

if you are an epic with leadership, you begin to take notice from not only governments but the gods. you endorse a religion take a side in a political skirmish, people take notice. especially in FR, where volume of worshippers boosts a gods power.

if he got to epic by slaying dragons, dragons might start conspiring. then you have a conspiracy of ancient beings who view you as a threat to their continued existance working subtily and or overtly to destroy you. same goers for undead.

the point is think as large as make sense in context to character, campaign setting, and story you feel comfortable weaving

Tyndmyr
2010-08-28, 08:02 AM
But they are not compatible with each-other, and different parts of the Epic rules seem to support one or the other. On the one hand, you have Epic Spellcasting (the part where you make yourself incredibly potent and immune to nigh-everything), and monsters like a living sphere of annihilation, a primal elemental, or an undead god thing. On the other hand, you have Epic Spellcasting (the part where you can, with great cost and time, replicate the 3rd level spell Fireball), and feats like Epic Weapon Focus (wow, +1 to hit :smallconfused: ).


Yeah, epic weapon focus confused me. Seriously, I want to blow an epic feat on +1 to hit?

You've hit upon it, though. It's not that either end of the wild range of epic power is bad...it's that it's such a broad range, and one that isn't really tied to levels. Now, your level 21 might not instantly be uberpowerful...but if wants to be, he can be with relatively reasonable investment.

Kaww
2010-08-28, 09:31 AM
Well, nobody said they all have to be good or useful. Just like regular feats some epic feats are not worth blowing a feat on. This is also the case with epic spells given in ELH, some simply suck...

Oslecamo
2010-08-28, 10:17 AM
True enough. The main problem with the epic system is that unless you engage in a certain level of shenanigans, lots of things(like epic spellcasting in general) are mostly a waste of time. And once you start, there's no terribly obvious point that's appropriate.

I LIKE the idea of a spell creation system, Im just not thrilled with the results of epic spell creation.

That's why the best way to run an epic campaign is to allow epic spells just in a case by case basis. Want a spell that creates a custom race? We can work that. Want an epic spell that stops time for one day except for you? DMG to the player's face.

Because you don't need epic spells for an epic game. You can just keep stacking cool classes and Prcs and your characters will indeed get much stronger and be able to fight gods.

Epic magic is good for the ocasional crazy effect, not as the ultimate weapon. Just forbid any epic spell that looks too good and tell the players to base their power on all the other stuff available that can't be fited on your 20 level build anyway.

ExtravagantEvil
2010-08-28, 04:36 PM
Greetings, I'd first like to say that I enjoy that this thread has resurfaced, and the PC and I have got an interesting idea for the Epic campaign set up.
Level 25 Dragon hunting, he is the head of a guild of Dragon Slayers, Ranger 15/ Dragon Slayer 10, and I'd like some tips concerning the usage of Great Wyrms and so on, and structure, I know that there is going to be a conspiracy amongst the evil dragon community about killing him, but I'm not sure how to implement it with care. So he's not going to be going insane with applied phlebotnium weapons, but any suggestions to make the dragons he faces truly dangerous foes, and how to handle vast aspects of Epic dragon hunting, the one thing I presume about this, is that he is very, very famous in most lands.

Fun notation: It seems as if for the build he is going for is high mobility, the Haste feat, Super speed, and two weapon tricks, along with the super favored enemy feat(s?)

balistafreak
2010-08-28, 05:36 PM
Another idea for an "epic" style game, if you want your characters to keep on leveling up but without the insanity of 20+ HD, is to "go backwards" and start gestalting your levels.

It's a little more manageable... but not by much. :smallamused:

Milskidasith
2010-08-28, 05:41 PM
Another idea for an "epic" style game, if you want your characters to keep on leveling up but without the insanity of 20+ HD, is to "go backwards" and start gestalting your levels.

It's a little more manageable... but not by much. :smallamused:

Actually, adding gestalt levels from level 20 really isn't all that bad. Gestalt is still very manageable.