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Morph Bark
2010-07-18, 02:39 PM
So what if you just made a character that somehow, someway, ended up with ability scores like such: Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1.

What would you do if you still wanted to continue playing with that character and really liked it? What classes would be useable? What feats or skills, or items? How would you make a character with such ability scores playable and workable in a party, or even on its own?

This is mostly as a thought exercise, but if something comes out of it, I might actually use that.

JaronK
2010-07-18, 02:42 PM
Depends on the character. If you're a Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10, I wouldn't sweat it. If you're a Fighter, you're hosed. If you're a Wizard, it'll take a bit of creativity.

JaronK

Jack_Simth
2010-07-18, 02:42 PM
So what if you just made a character that somehow, someway, ended up with ability scores like such: Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1.

What would you do if you still wanted to continue playing with that character and really liked it? What classes would be useable? What feats or skills, or items? How would you make a character with such ability scores playable and workable in a party, or even on its own?

This is mostly as a thought exercise, but if something comes out of it, I might actually use that.Ah... Anthropormorphic Bat (Savage Species) Druid.... with a +6 Belt of Magnificience (Miniatures Handbook)... and the +5 Tome for each stat ... and all stat boosts going into Wisdom.. *might* be playable. Maybe. If the DM wasn't too harsh.

Eldan
2010-07-18, 02:43 PM
As mentioned, Wildshape is a good bet: depending on the version you have, you don't need any good stats to use it and still be semi-effective as a melee fighter.
Or you could beg a wizard to polymorph you, intelligence change included.

Glimbur
2010-07-18, 02:44 PM
Wild Cohort is an excellent use of a feat in this case.

Mongoose87
2010-07-18, 02:48 PM
Warlocks are basically no attribute dependent, if played a certain way. Use one of them.

Zeta Kai
2010-07-18, 03:04 PM
If you're a Wizard, it'll take a bit of creativity.

I fail to see how any level of creativity could compensate for an INT so low that you can't cast any spells. Plus characters with an INT of 3 shouldn't be very creative, & with a WIS of 1, they'd be wasting all their money on lottery tickets & halfling rehab programs. Unless you happen upon a magical shape-changing effect, you're hosed no matter what.

It would be neat to roleplay a character who was cursed to have such low stats without carrying around some fragile McGuffin, though. a real test of character.

JaronK
2010-07-18, 03:05 PM
With the Wizard thing, you'd like have to temporarily boost your stats (with gear, most likely) long enough to get a spell off that would change you into something else.

JaronK

Octopus Jack
2010-07-18, 03:10 PM
Level 1 Paladin:

"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuz-"

Studoku
2010-07-18, 03:11 PM
Take 20 levels in commoner.

If I'm going to have a character this crappy, I might as well do it properly.

Hyooz
2010-07-18, 03:31 PM
I'll take Warlock or Dragonfire Adept... or just cheat and play druid like everybody else.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-18, 04:02 PM
Yeah, throw my vote to the druid, because, honestly, my stats mean jank when I've got a big beefy bear to smash face for me. Sadly, without becoming undead or somehow magically upping my Con score to at least 16, I would never join sad bear in on the fun.

Yorrin
2010-07-18, 04:03 PM
Other than the obvious Wildshape I'd say a Dread Necromancer 8/Warlock 3/Eldrich Theurge 9 would be the way to go. Chilling Tentacles + Undead Army without any stat dependency. Bonus points for UMDing a chain of eyes spell on your Zombie Dragon while riding inside of him, to stay out of direct fire.

tyckspoon
2010-07-18, 04:10 PM
Other than the obvious Wildshape I'd say a Dread Necromancer 8/Warlock 3/Eldrich Theurge 9 would be the way to go. Chilling Tentacles + Undead Army without any stat dependency. Bonus points for UMDing a chain of eyes spell on your Zombie Dragon while riding inside of him, to stay out of direct fire.

Aside from needing +10 worth of Cha boosts to cast anything at all from the Dread Necro levels, sure. No stat dependency.

Yorrin
2010-07-18, 04:15 PM
Aside from needing +10 worth of Cha boosts to cast anything at all from the Dread Necro levels, sure. No stat dependency.

Note that what I said to do involved no spellcasting aside from UMDing a wand, which I can take 10 on thanks to Deceive Item.

Coidzor
2010-07-18, 04:25 PM
What would you do if you still wanted to continue playing with that character and really liked it?

I think you're straining the limits of our hypothetic matrices.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-18, 05:22 PM
So what if you just made a character that somehow, someway, ended up with ability scores like such: Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1.

What would you do if you still wanted to continue playing with that character and really liked it? What classes would be useable? What feats or skills, or items? How would you make a character with such ability scores playable and workable in a party, or even on its own?

This is mostly as a thought exercise, but if something comes out of it, I might actually use that.

okay. . . the thing is. . . I as a GM would not allow it. Unless you were somehow playing a diminutive sized barely sentient ooze. I might let a barely sentient ooze be played with these scores. . . so. . . going on that assumption

You can be Oozey the Oozelock:

Racial Abilities: base ooze traits. . .

Put all stat points from leveling into Int to help you be slightly more cognizant of the basics of the universe . like fire=bad and party=friends. . .

Be carried around by the party figher in a jar hanging from his neck. . . shoot things. . .your aim will suck. . . so invest feats in sucking less at aiming. . .

When you're able cast personal range 24 hour invocations. . . become a flying invisible ooze. . . This will help greatly. . . summon swarms frequently to help the party since you dont need to aim them. . .

Congradualtions you're now a pretty cool magic item. . .

When your high enough level use word of changing, on yourself. . . or get a buddy to cast balefull polymorph for you sooner. . . voluntarily fail the first save, have a contingency to make sure you DONT fail the second save. . . now you can be a bunnylock or kittylock. . and start taking rogue levels. . . which would actually be pretty sweet. . . Bunnylock/rogue. . .

ericgrau
2010-07-18, 05:32 PM
I think having 1 HP per level would put a damper even on wildshaped or polymorphed characters. Maybe with a nice amulet of health and a lot of [improved] toughness feats you might get somewhere.

Greenish
2010-07-18, 05:33 PM
It would be neat to roleplay a character who was cursed to have such low stats without carrying around some fragile McGuffin, though.It could be a magic sword. Called Stormbringer.

Level 1 Paladin:

"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuz-"Not enough Int for high enough Know: Religion.

Kaulesh
2010-07-18, 05:39 PM
Assuming you have some way of raising your Truespeak skill super high, try Truenamer. If I recall correctly, their ability to cast isn't based off of an ability.

Yeah, the class isn't particularly good, but I don't see it being worse than anything else in this case.

Poil
2010-07-18, 05:51 PM
Assuming you have some way of raising your Truespeak skill super high, try Truenamer. If I recall correctly, their ability to cast isn't based off of an ability.

Yeah, the class isn't particularly good, but I don't see it being worse than anything else in this case.

I find it amusing that a broken class is a decent choice when you have really lousy stats.

Thiyr
2010-07-18, 06:17 PM
Realistically, another vote to a utility warlock. Invocations that don't require attack rolls or saves means you're doing great. Baleful utterance to break non-magical stuff, nearly perma-flight/invisibility, chilling tentacles/chilling fog, and taking 10 on UMD means that you can be not only functioning, but make major impacts. Not needing verbal components helps too, as you can be invisible and spam charm on things without them knowing you're doing it, and then once you're reasonably certain it's succeeded, reappear somewhere and walk back in. Or just dropping a scroll of silence to turn off unprepared casters while you're just as functional as before.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-18, 07:01 PM
Commoner 1/Survivor 1/X 18.

Take the Chicken Infested flaw, try to survive to level 3 when you can take Quick Draw. In the mean time pump your Handle Animal score. At level three you can have an infinite chicken army, and can command two chickens per turn. Opponents can't get anywhere near you for the chickens (enough creatures of any size counts as filling the area, and no creature can enter a filled area so they have to kill the chickens that you can regenerate as a free action). Take Druid levels for a (Dire) chicken companion called Scratch and eventual (Dire) Chicken form through Wildshape and/or levels of something allowing you to control more each turn chickens for abuse of Aid Another.

Aotrs Commander
2010-07-18, 07:02 PM
I wouldn't play a character like that, for the simple reason a barely-sapient creature does not make for a good roleplaying character. With those stats, you nearly AREN'T a character; you are literally only a fraction above an object. You have less personality than most animals, and less ability to perceive the world than most MINDLESS creatures, let alone the physical incapability.

Granted, you might be able to get something mechanically operational out of it; but I doubt very much it would be fun playing something with about the same stats as an advanced calculator... Which is about what you are. I think something with those mental stats I'd be hard-pressed to call sapient, to be honest.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-18, 07:10 PM
I wouldn't play a character like that, for the simple reason a barely-sapient creature does not make for a good roleplaying character. With those stats, you nearly AREN'T a character; you are literally only a fraction above an object. You have less personality than most animals, and less ability to perceive the world than most MINDLESS creatures, let alone the physical incapability.

Granted, you might be able to get something mechanically operational out of it; but I doubt very much it would be fun playing something with about the same stats as an advanced calculator... Which is about what you are. I think something with those mental stats I'd be hard-pressed to call sapient, to be honest.

I second reiterate may statement. . . ANYTHING you play.. . will make you slightly cooler than an OBJECT. . . Warlock at least makes you a slightly cooler magic item. . .

Flickerdart
2010-07-18, 07:17 PM
The trick is to choose templates with lots of stat adjustments. Your stats can't go below 1, so all those penalties to stuff are essentially moot. For example, becoming a Lycanthrope will give you some beefy boosts to physical stats, some options even raising you into positive modifiers. Turning into an undead creature is also an option, as it does away with your terrible Constitution altogether, and going Ghost will likewise remove your Strength from being a concern.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-18, 08:11 PM
The trick is to choose templates with lots of stat adjustments. Your stats can't go below 1, so all those penalties to stuff are essentially moot. For example, becoming a Lycanthrope will give you some beefy boosts to physical stats, some options even raising you into positive modifiers. Turning into an undead creature is also an option, as it does away with your terrible Constitution altogether, and going Ghost will likewise remove your Strength from being a concern.

If you can somehow become immobile and unintelligent you have no stats but Wis and Cha and are therefore as close as possible to being an object without being one. I'm not sure how that would really help but your ability modifiers are better!

Shadowleaf
2010-07-18, 08:52 PM
Realistically, another vote to a utility warlock. Invocations that don't require attack rolls or saves means you're doing great. Baleful utterance to break non-magical stuff, nearly perma-flight/invisibility, chilling tentacles/chilling fog, and taking 10 on UMD means that you can be not only functioning, but make major impacts. Not needing verbal components helps too, as you can be invisible and spam charm on things without them knowing you're doing it, and then once you're reasonably certain it's succeeded, reappear somewhere and walk back in. Or just dropping a scroll of silence to turn off unprepared casters while you're just as functional as before.
Taking 10 on your Use Magic Device would give a result of 5, plus ranks. Not really noteworthy.

Also, with a strength score of 1, I'm not even sure you can move around.

Greenish
2010-07-18, 09:13 PM
Also, with a strength score of 1, I'm not even sure you can move around.Sure you can. Strength 0 is immobility, but strength 1 only gives you -5 to skills that key of it.

Coidzor
2010-07-18, 09:43 PM
Sure you can. Strength 0 is immobility, but strength 1 only gives you -5 to skills that key of it.

And unable to carry very much at all.

As in, a heavy load is 7-10 pounds and any more than that and one can barely stagger around with it up until 20 pounds at which point one can't even lift it off of the ground.

Depending upon how clothes count, one could be encumbered just from one's outfit.

Greenish
2010-07-18, 09:58 PM
Depending upon how clothes count, one could be encumbered just from one's outfit.Your starting outfit costs nothing and weights nothing, I seem to recall.

But yeah, below 4-5 scores in any ability score would indicate a serious handicap, and having mental scores below 3 seems borderline impossible to roleplay.

TurtleKing
2010-07-18, 10:30 PM
I now have a sudden urge to make an npc like this for my upcoming campaign. Although he would still get the evolution +2 bonus to each stat since everyone adapted to the harsh world they inhabit. I might also make him Deadpool-esque, but not sure how I will do that though. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-07-18, 10:41 PM
I'll take Warlock or Dragonfire Adept... or just cheat and play druid like everybody else.

Binders round out the "non-stat-dependent" squad.

Flickerdart
2010-07-18, 10:41 PM
Ah yes, of course! Age bonuses! We can start as Venerable, getting us +3 to the mental stats. Then we die, become a Ghost, and use the Ghost's Malevolence ability to possess something with better physical scores. As an added bonus, our Charisma is now 8 - 1, +3 age, +4 ghost.

Yorrin
2010-07-18, 10:53 PM
Ah yes, of course! Age bonuses! We can start as Venerable, getting us +3 to the mental stats. Then we die, become a Ghost, and use the Ghost's Malevolence ability to possess something with better physical scores. As an added bonus, our Charisma is now 8 - 1, +3 age, +4 ghost.

I like where this is going. If you could find some way to swing the Evolved Undead template a few times you'd actually have a non-negative Cha mod, and if you grab the Sagacious Ghost alternate ghost from LM you get Lore based on HD and Cha. THAT can be roleplayed. A ghost who was once a Bard-in-training, but an absolute idiot with no common sense who can only recall the various crazy stories he's heard.

Soranar
2010-07-18, 11:19 PM
off the top of my head

for nearly any build, necropolitan template to fix your HP to proper levels

add venerable to get another +3 to all mental stats

warlock was already mentioned but there is 1 other option I can think of

EDIT: misread Jaronk, he already mentioned it

variant ranger with wildshape that turns into a master of many forms warshaper, if he ever gets that far somehow (there are feats for undead wildshape to work)

as for race, maybe a human to get more skillpoints

SethFahad
2010-07-18, 11:47 PM
Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1, what now?

What now? Next in the line is... the grave my friend... RIP.

oh, and with mental stats like these, you wont be able to cast anything*, so taking a spellcaster class is futile.

*Neither learn nor prepare a spell. Not even a cantrip!

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score
equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth).

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Wis 10 for 0-level spells, Wis 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth).

To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score
equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Wis 10 for 0-level spells, Wis 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth).
etc...
So at least a "10" in a basic mental stat is mandatory.

Kylarra
2010-07-18, 11:55 PM
I now have a sudden urge to make an npc like this for my upcoming campaign. Although he would still get the evolution +2 bonus to each stat since everyone adapted to the harsh world they inhabit. I might also make him Deadpool-esque, but not sure how I will do that though. :smalltongue:Make him like Squee instead.

Fizban
2010-07-19, 12:07 AM
I wouldn't have fun, but here's another for Warlock. I'd add on some of the other ideas too, taking Wild Cohort (multiple times if you can get the DM to allow it, even), and finding the template with the biggest con bonus possible. 1st level is gonna need toughness, then take Improved Toughness when you can, and the save boosting feats. Ride on your cohort while hiding behind a tower shield for full cover from everything.

Edit: for another companion, you could try dipping Druid and then taking Natural Bond a gazillion times, but that'll take all your feats. It would help offset level adjustment from templates. Incidentally, a Feral Mineral Warrior Mongrelfolk would be good. For +2 LA that gets you fast healing 5 and DR 8/adamantine, meaning you should recover from most attacks in a couple turns up to mid levels, and with 9 con you're only one point away from getting the penalty off your hit dice. Use LA buyoff if possible. Yup, a lot of things become playable when you combine two of the most broken templates in the game.

TurtleKing
2010-07-19, 12:46 AM
I was thinking of doing something like that. Now I will have to decide whether he is a 3 year old Deadpool or a Squee down on his luck....:smallcool:

Any idea in the mechanics that let pull off their signature never dies/ stays dead ability? Brokenness incouraged plus the prerequisites could be waved, but it requires a judgement call by me (for my world).:smallbiggrin:

The evolution +2 bonus to each stat is something of a bone to my world for being so unforgiving.

Soranar
2010-07-19, 01:00 AM
As mentioned before, carrying anything becomes a problem as a 1 STR character can only lift 3 pounds for a light load (assuming he's medium) and 6 pounds for a medium load

solution

Vow of poverty (incidently, works well with druid and warlocks)

HP is a problem

solution : any undead template (mentioned before)

outside of wildshape an ubermount build could be quite powerful as you essentially take every possible mount related feat and class

otherwise... ?

oddly enough I think I found something else that could work...

a ranger that doesn't wildshape

pick the variant that doesn't cast spells to get 3 extra feats for archery (from Complete Champion)

or even, a ninja

Race: strongheart halfling
Alignment: chaotic good
template: necropolitan
age: venerable

STATS

STR 1
DEX 1
CON -
INT 3
WIS 6 (assuming you can at least pick where the 3 goes)
CHA 3

a light crossbow weights 4 , 2 for a small character
10 bolts weight 1, .5 for a small character

a medium load is 4.5 for a small character so you can have your crossbow (don't lose it) and 50 bolts until you get a mount

1 Ninja Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, nymph's kiss
2 Fighter Martial stalker
3 FighterPoint blank shot, bowslinger
4 Fighter
5 Fighter weapon focus: light crossbow
6 Ninja Wild cohort
7 Ninja
8 Ninja
9 Ninja rapid reload
10 Ninja
11 Ninja
12 NinjaZen Archery (Wisdom is at 13 with +3 from levels and +4 from VoP)
13 Ninja
14 Ninja
15 Ninja weapon specialization: light crossbow
16 Ninja
17 Ninja
18 Ninja weapon specialization: ranged piercing
19 Ninja
20 Ninja

You're still seriously underwhelming (would probably work better with a ranger) but you manage to deliver damage via sudden strike holy crossbows

Zeful
2010-07-19, 01:17 AM
STATS

STR 1
DEX 1
CON -
INT 3
WIS 6 (assuming you can at least pick where the 3 goes)
CHA 3

Incorrect: Minimum Int for a Sapient creature is 3. So advancing the creature to venerable raises Int to 6.

Morph Bark
2010-07-19, 04:03 AM
As mentioned, Wildshape is a good bet: depending on the version you have, you don't need any good stats to use it and still be semi-effective as a melee fighter.
Or you could beg a wizard to polymorph you, intelligence change included.

Wildshape and Polymorph would work, but they don't affect Intelligence, if I recall correctly.


Wild Cohort is an excellent use of a feat in this case.

Of course, anything that would get you minions to do stuff in your place would help. :smallwink:

On that note, can you still use Reserve Feats? With spell slots that you can't cast from anyway, you might as well take that one feat that allows you to summon a limitless supply of one-elemental-at-a-time, which might perhaps fit with the Dread Necro build Yorrin proposed on page 1.


Warlocks are basically no attribute dependent, if played a certain way. Use one of them.

I've heard this many times and people saying Warlocks can be a NAD class, but what set-up choices of invocations would work best with this "played a certain way"?


I'll take Warlock or Dragonfire Adept... or just cheat and play druid like everybody else.

Doesn't Dragonfire Adept have some extra abilities that function off Con that would totally suck with this?


okay. . . the thing is. . . I as a GM would not allow it. Unless you were somehow playing a diminutive sized barely sentient ooze. I might let a barely sentient ooze be played with these scores. . . so. . . going on that assumption

You can be Oozey the Oozelock:

Racial Abilities: base ooze traits. . .

Put all stat points from leveling into Int to help you be slightly more cognizant of the basics of the universe . like fire=bad and party=friends. . .

Be carried around by the party figher in a jar hanging from his neck. . . shoot things. . .your aim will suck. . . so invest feats in sucking less at aiming. . .

When you're able cast personal range 24 hour invocations. . . become a flying invisible ooze. . . This will help greatly. . . summon swarms frequently to help the party since you dont need to aim them. . .

Congradualtions you're now a pretty cool magic item. . .

When your high enough level use word of changing, on yourself. . . or get a buddy to cast balefull polymorph for you sooner. . . voluntarily fail the first save, have a contingency to make sure you DONT fail the second save. . . now you can be a bunnylock or kittylock. . and start taking rogue levels. . . which would actually be pretty sweet. . . Bunnylock/rogue. . .

Intruiging thoughts there, I like how you and others find ways to get around certain parts of this. :smallsmile:


Assuming you have some way of raising your Truespeak skill super high, try Truenamer. If I recall correctly, their ability to cast isn't based off of an ability.

Yeah, the class isn't particularly good, but I don't see it being worse than anything else in this case.

A skill-based caster can do well, yes, though they'd have a big penalty on their skill check from their abysmal ability score and they'd have to only pump their casting skill.

That makes me wonder though... would an initiator class do well enough with this? Crusader, Swordsage or Warblade, anyone?


Commoner 1/Survivor 1/X 18.

Take the Chicken Infested flaw, try to survive to level 3 when you can take Quick Draw. In the mean time pump your Handle Animal score. At level three you can have an infinite chicken army, and can command two chickens per turn. Opponents can't get anywhere near you for the chickens (enough creatures of any size counts as filling the area, and no creature can enter a filled area so they have to kill the chickens that you can regenerate as a free action). Take Druid levels for a (Dire) chicken companion called Scratch and eventual (Dire) Chicken form through Wildshape and/or levels of something allowing you to control more each turn chickens for abuse of Aid Another.

Heh. Any reason for no more Survivor levels? Is there perhaps a way to make all the chickens from Chicken-Infested into dire chickens or something else? And why can you only summon/command two chickens per turn, exactly?


If you can somehow become immobile and unintelligent you have no stats but Wis and Cha and are therefore as close as possible to being an object without being one. I'm not sure how that would really help but your ability modifiers are better!

Well, I did something of that sort (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155990) a while ago...


Your starting outfit costs nothing and weights nothing, I seem to recall.

Alternatively, you could just be naked. If you can get your Str up, levels in Monk or Unarmed Swordsage could perhaps work.


Binders round out the "non-stat-dependent" squad.

I sorta thought so too, but they'd need ways to still get their Cha up so they can be in control, no?


I like where this is going. If you could find some way to swing the Evolved Undead template a few times you'd actually have a non-negative Cha mod, and if you grab the Sagacious Ghost alternate ghost from LM you get Lore based on HD and Cha. THAT can be roleplayed. A ghost who was once a Bard-in-training, but an absolute idiot with no common sense who can only recall the various crazy stories he's heard.

Ahh, most intruiging thoughts there. Very well thought-out.


Edit: for another companion, you could try dipping Druid and then taking Natural Bond a gazillion times, but that'll take all your feats. It would help offset level adjustment from templates.

Where is Natural Bond from and what does it do? And how would it help offset level adjustment for you?

Eldariel
2010-07-19, 05:26 AM
Huh. Dragonwrought Kobold Ranger/Master of Many Forms taking Epic Toughness as most of his feats. He'll have ~90 HP on level 1 and still be decently along in the high levels at ~250 or so, and Wildshape takes care of most of the rest. You'll probably pick up Steadfast Determination (complete with Ranger's free Endurance) to use your Wildshape Con for Will-saves and so on, allowing him to get all decent saves.

Alternatively, build a Supermount and just ride in the stomach of your companion or whatever. Or travel in an Adamantine Cone pushed by your mount.


@Natural Bond: Feat from CAdv that increases your effective Druid-level for AC by 3.

@Wizard: You'll need WBL to purchase two castings of PAO to get you decent Int.

And yeah, Necropolitan makes most things playable, really. 'cause then you can have tons of HP (get crafted in Desecrated area and by a Dread Necro and so on for like +6 per HD) regardless making you rock for any statless class.

Morph Bark
2010-07-19, 07:24 AM
Huh. Dragonwrought Kobold Ranger/Master of Many Forms taking Epic Toughness as most of his feats. He'll have ~90 HP on level 1 and still be decently along in the high levels at ~250 or so,

How can he have 90 hp at level 1? :smallconfused:


@Wizard: You'll need WBL to purchase two castings of PAO to get you decent Int.

From the SRD: "Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form."

So I don't think that works. :smallfrown:

Chineselegolas
2010-07-19, 07:36 AM
How can he have 90 hp at level 1? :smallconfused:Making use of Dragonwrought cheese to be a dragon, be 'ancient' and qualify for epic feats as per dragonic age catagories.
Then take the Epic Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness) as your first level feat, and as you two feats granted by flaws.


From the SRD: "Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form."

So I don't think that works. :smallfrown:
{table=header]Changed Subject Is: | Increase to Duration Factor
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) | +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) | +2
Same size | +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) |+2
Same or lower Intelligence|+2[/table]
First on to change intelligence up, if only temporary. The second to be a change to a form of actual use being permanent as Int is now higher than final form I'm guessing.

ericgrau
2010-07-19, 08:06 AM
Getting a darkwood crossbow and crossbow bolts will cut their weight in half.

Greenish
2010-07-19, 09:33 AM
Making use of Dragonwrought cheese to be a dragon, be 'ancient' and qualify for epic feats as per dragonic age catagories.
Then take the Epic Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness) as your first level feat, and as you two feats granted by flaws.That's four feats as a first level kobold. Chaos-shuffling Track?

Eldariel
2010-07-19, 10:10 AM
That's four feats as a first level kobold. Chaos-shuffling Track?

Kobolds have Pick proficiencies for two extra. Should actually be 120; my bad. Tho you can trade Track too, sure.

Aquillion
2010-07-19, 10:22 AM
1. Go Necropolitian to offset your terrible con score.
2. Go Druid or Warlock to offset your terrible everything else.

Person_Man
2010-07-19, 10:39 AM
Note that although Wildshape changes your Constitution score, like all alternate forms, it does not change your hit point calculation. So at best you will be able to withstand ONE attack before dying. Necropolitan or something similar is a great idea to fix this (sort of). But you'll still have piss poor hit points.

With this in mind, I would focus on a purely support role. Something like Human Rogue 1/Binder X with Able Learner. Although the Save DC's for your vestiges will be garbage and you'll make a lot of "bad pacts" (which has roleplaying and tactical implications), making a pact does not require a minimum ability score. Binder can access all day Supernatural Disguise Self, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Mage Hand, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Read Thoughts, Animate Objects, Summon Monster, and buffs to various Skills.

Stay hidden at all times, act as your party's scout and face, and when you hit ECL 10ish you can Summon to provide tactical support as well.

Eldariel
2010-07-19, 10:58 AM
2. Go Druid or Warlock to offset your terrible everything else.

Wildshape Ranger/MoMF.


But you'll still have piss poor hit points.

Dragonwrought. Kobold. Or Necropolitan with the various Crafting feats, Dread Necro, Desecration and company to match ~Con 24 Barb, about what most people get on 20.

Flickerdart
2010-07-19, 11:22 AM
Guys, you can't change the base race - those are final scores, the OP says. But taking class levels and applying age and templates is fair game.

Eldariel
2010-07-19, 11:36 AM
Guys, you can't change the base race - those are final scores, the OP says. But taking class levels and applying age and templates is fair game.

Race wasn't specified, no? Only scores. So you can pick whatever race with those scores (with no heed paid to how they were achieved with racial bonuses and penalties).

Morph Bark
2010-07-19, 11:40 AM
Race wasn't specified, no? Only scores. So you can pick whatever race with those scores (with no heed paid to how they were achieved with racial bonuses and penalties).

Exactly. Even with inherited templates, somehow the ability scores would be as specified in the first post and thread title. Acquired templates may change it though. Plus, only the ability scores are like that, the character might still have other race- or template-based nifty abilities.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-19, 01:54 PM
Retire the character to a vegetable garden.

Jothki
2010-07-19, 02:22 PM
When your high enough level use word of changing, on yourself. . . or get a buddy to cast balefull polymorph for you sooner. . . voluntarily fail the first save, have a contingency to make sure you DONT fail the second save. . . now you can be a bunnylock or kittylock. . and start taking rogue levels. . . which would actually be pretty sweet. . . Bunnylock/rogue. . .

With those stats, you're probably better off failing the second save as well.

JaronK
2010-07-19, 02:30 PM
Take Leadership, and play as your cohort. I like the Chicken Infested idea... your main character can now be the party cook, and provide plenty of free chicken for all the land, while the cohort does the heavy lifting.

JaronK

The Shadowmind
2010-07-19, 02:35 PM
Now to figure out how you got either got a 1 on a 3d6 roll five times, or where you are getting -2 to each stat from. Multi-stacking the Pathetic flaw?
I fourth(?) the warlock idea, especially the ooze in a jar version, being a moody magic item.

Theodoriph
2010-07-19, 03:17 PM
Race: Snake
Class: Wizard
Level: 1
Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1
LA: +0

After many years of devotion to the spider goddess, she has blessed you with her touch. You feel stronger and more vigorous.

Race: Snake
Class: Wizard
Template: Lolth-Touched
Str 7, Dex 1, Con 7, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1
Alignment: CE
LA: +1
Fearless

You devote yourself further to your godess and she rewards you further.

Race: Snake
Class: Snake 2 Wizard 1
Template: Lolth-Touched Elder Serpent
Str 9, Dex 3, Con 9, Int 9 + 2d6 (avg: 16), Wis 5 + 2d4 (Avg: 10), Cha 5 + 2d4 (Avg: 10)
LA: +4
Alignment: CE
Fearless, Blindsense, Snake HD convert to d10



Sure you have an LA +4 and 2 snake d10s, but on the other hand, you can now be a wizard. :smallbiggrin: And after enough levelling up and some buying off of the LA, the uber poweredness will take over and you won't even notice.


P.S. I'm not entirely sure how the template works since I don't have the source material, but the 2 snake d10s may be included in the the adjustment they made for level, but I'm assuming they're not.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-19, 04:16 PM
Heh. Any reason for no more Survivor levels? Is there perhaps a way to make all the chickens from Chicken-Infested into dire chickens or something else? And why can you only summon/command two chickens per turn, exactly?

First, X can include levels of anything, including Survivor. I just put it in there because you qualify, it's better than Commoner, you can't get Quick Draw till level three so any class other than Survivor can be used for the one BAB required to qualify (if using fractional BAB, otherwise another level of Commoner or any full BAB class works) and therefore having no BAB for one level has no drawbacks worth mention.

Second, find some way to raise their HD (Bardic music, perhaps?) and you can Polymorph them or use a similar spell on them.

Third, you can gain infinite chickens as a free action, but directing them uses a move action unless one is your animal companion (which lowers the action to a free action for that particular chicken). You only have two move actions per turn normally, which is why I mentioned that limit.

Fourth, I advise reflavouring the birds as cuckoos and keeping only a few around you at most times. If someone hits them you have an enemy and the means to recreate scenes from the Legend of Zelda games.

I think it's probably best to get Warblade and Bard levels in this. Use stuff like Song of the White Raven, Inspire Courage and White Raven Tactics (on yourself or the chickens) to crush your opponents with a feathered, squawking tide! Get Perform (Woodwind) and be the Pied Piper of deadly chickens! If you take Bard levels you may be able to stop people from hurting you using Diplomacy, instead of increasing their hatred because you have a one in Cha.

Combine with other ideas to get something that might be approaching playable.

imp_fireball
2010-07-19, 05:53 PM
It depends on how the character became this way. If this is what you rolled, then go with what everyone else suggested.

If you were somehow permanently drained to this state and then epically wished to remain so despite whatever effort the rest of the party made to cure you, then the Int could be lowered to 1 and you could still speak and even read (because at one point, you had a higher Int wherein you learned how to speak). If your Int was 1 starting off, then obviously you would know not how to speak.

With 1 Int either way though, you would be unable to learn anything new and adapting to the simplest of challenges would be absolute hell and/or automatic fail. Also your speech would simplify and you would probably quickly forget things that require thought processes (and can't simply be recalled - like for example, synonyms to words require some small thought process but plain ordinary words can be recalled since they are the words you may learn upon first learning to talk as a baby).

That's just how I'd rule it.


Your starting outfit costs nothing and weights nothing, I seem to recall.

No, outfits can be purchased. In the SRD, they have weights and prices - royal attire complete with everything is about 20 pounds (I think).

Though most people just assume that adventurers are wearing whatever they typically would wear or were wearing according to their background (which could be jeans and a t-shirt or naked for all we know).

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-19, 06:33 PM
It depends on how the character became this way. If this is what you rolled, then go with what everyone else suggested.

If you were somehow permanently drained to this state and then epically wished to remain so despite whatever effort the rest of the party made to cure you, then the Int could be lowered to 1 and you could still speak and even read (because at one point, you had a higher Int wherein you learned how to speak). If your Int was 1 starting off, then obviously you would know not how to speak.

With 1 Int either way though, you would be unable to learn anything new and adapting to the simplest of challenges would be absolute hell and/or automatic fail. Also your speech would simplify and you would probably quickly forget things that require thought processes (and can't simply be recalled - like for example, synonyms to words require some small thought process but plain ordinary words can be recalled since they are the words you may learn upon first learning to talk as a baby).

That's just how I'd rule it.



No, outfits can be purchased. In the SRD, they have weights and prices - royal attire complete with everything is about 20 pounds (I think).

Though most people just assume that adventurers are wearing whatever they typically would wear or were wearing according to their background (which could be jeans and a t-shirt or naked for all we know).

I'm fairly sure dropping your Int below three removes the ability to speak, because you're at animal intelligence. You may retain some basic understanding however. It does make sense, would you be pleased if someone at Int 3 insisted they had the words "extraordinary", "entropy" or "dimensional stability" in their vocabulary just because they were able to speak? If not then your Intelligence imposes limits on how you use language, eventually removing it almost completely at animal levels of Int.

Second, it is stated in the PHB that you are assumed to start with one of a group of outfits at no cost and no weight. Weight of clothing is only an issue if you want a second set or one of the more expensive sets which cannot be used as a default outfit. Under Equipment, where it gives the more detailed stats and the fluff for each outfit.

TurtleKing
2010-07-19, 06:37 PM
I know how to do an awesome character like this.

The answer is to play a Prinny. The prinny is an immortal embodiment of failure. Can only be kill by an intermediate deity or higher that is actually trying to kill the prinny (was blasted twice by Death one was through a mountain:smallbiggrin:). The prinny has a bag that functions as a Bag of Holding that does not encumber the prinny. The prinny may take feats to increase the type of the bag. The prinny has infinite daggers and a once per day bomb. The prinny also explodes when thrown causing 1d6 per level. A level 1 prinny can deal 2d4+3d6 fire damage for wielding 2 daggers plus bomb in mouth and self.

The party now as an indestructible ballistic pack animal. This is not even including any class abilities that the prinny has. So can be of worth to a party, however by itself is questionable.

I have played a prinny before, but I had better stats. Can an immortal embodiment of failure achieve awesome ...yes it can. I became a deity at level 5, but not because of my stats it was the roleplaying (good stats did help though).:smallcool:

Morph Bark
2010-07-19, 07:17 PM
So far there's been good stuff shown. It's really easy to change Str, Dex and Con, and for Cha I've also seen it already. Int and Wis haven't been shown ways to get higher though. Someone tried something for Int, but that didn't work.

I was also wondering something with regards to a build like the following:


Other than the obvious Wildshape I'd say a Dread Necromancer 8/Warlock 3/Eldrich Theurge 9 would be the way to go. Chilling Tentacles + Undead Army without any stat dependency. Bonus points for UMDing a chain of eyes spell on your Zombie Dragon while riding inside of him, to stay out of direct fire.

Can you still use Reserve Feats? With spell slots that you can't cast from anyway, you might as well take that one feat that allows you to summon a limitless supply of one-elemental-at-a-time.


So far it's clear that spellcasting and manifesting classes are prettymuch a no-go. Even if you do manage to get your mental scores up in the double digits, you still can only do a little bit. You can't shape soulmelds until after you pull off a Con-upping trick, or turn undead and become an Undead meldshaper, but then you have to get Wisdom (right?) up high enough. You still could use incarnum feats, but an incarnum class is a pretty bad idea it would seem.

Truenamer has been named as a possibility as it is a skill-based caster, but Truenamer is still only really viable at lower levels, since at higher levels the DCs just become unmanageable. The Binder has been said to be close to NAD, but due to abysmal Cha the vestiges will be more in control than the character himself. Dragonfire Adept is like the Warlock, but I believe the DFA also has some Con-based class abilities, making the Warlock a better choice.

Besides those, a melee class is obviously a bad idea, since you will hit little, deal little damage, and you need to survive until you can get your physical ability scores changed and even then your Con likely won't be something to be happy about, unless you perhaps try to be an Evolved Undead Necropolitan Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness. A skillmonkey class would be sad, since you get 4 less skill points due to low Int, at least for the first HD, and this doesn't change until you up that Int good. This means that if you go Rogue or Scout, you will have only 4 skill points, so you can't be a real skillmonkey and will need to choose carefully what to focus on -- plus you'd still have huge penalties due to low ability scores, of course.


What leaves that? You could try be an archer, since then your damage isn't lowered, and you could benefit from bonus damage dice through Sneak Attack and the like, but you will still hit not very often unless you spec for that. Would an initiator class help, perhaps? Sure, they are mainly melee classes, but it could help. A party-booster could do too perhaps, like a Marshal, Dragon Shaman or Bard, but in any other thing they will try their hand at, they will still suck incredibly. This would be fitting with the scheme of getting cohorts, animal companions, wild cohorts, followers, thralls, believers, familiars, undead, constructs, whatever, since you could boost those all at once. A Bard could get that uber-long-range-music horn, perhaps?



With 1 Int either way though,

It's not an Int score of 1, it's an Int score of 3.

imp_fireball
2010-07-19, 07:29 PM
I'm fairly sure dropping your Int below three removes the ability to speak, because you're at animal intelligence. You may retain some basic understanding however. It does make sense, would you be pleased if someone at Int 3 insisted they had the words "extraordinary", "entropy" or "dimensional stability" in their vocabulary just because they were able to speak? If not then your Intelligence imposes limits on how you use language, eventually removing it almost completely at animal levels of Int.



would you be pleased if someone at Int 3 insisted they had the words "extraordinary", "entropy" or "dimensional stability" in their vocabulary just because they were able to speak?

I already explained that speech simplifies as intelligence goes into the penalties. It's up to GM discretion (ie. "Your character shouldn't be roleplayed that way. It's ruining verisimillitude.").

Also, they can still talk if they learned how to talk. Lowered Int doesn't mean you forget things. Although you may think "How the hell did I ever know that to begin with. When I think about it now, it's quite confusing."


It's not an Int score of 1, it's an Int score of 3.

He made all the other scores 1, so I just thought 'why not make Int 1 too?'. It wouldn't change much of anything. Maybe you'd forget how to perform most skills (including physical skills; heck maybe most class features have a degree of failure due to limited neural processing capacity). But not much else.

... Actually, I think an Int of 1 would increase the challenge a little more - I wanted to say that you could still speak, but it would of the simplest sort. It's like having brain damage. You used to be smart and so you filled your head with a wealth of information. But now your are overcome with ineptitude and you are struggling to retain this information. Recovering from Int loss should not mean you have to relearn everything though (it flows back to you).

Kylarra
2010-07-19, 07:31 PM
The only thing CON has to affect for a DFA is the save for the breath weapon, but if you factor in half damage (saving against DFA breath weapon) vs no damage (missing with eldritch blast), I would say DFA comes out ahead.

imp_fireball
2010-07-19, 07:39 PM
The only thing CON has to affect for a DFA is the save for the breath weapon, but if you factor in half damage (saving against DFA breath weapon) vs no damage (missing with eldritch blast), I would say DFA comes out ahead.

It's also AoE.

Kaulesh
2010-07-19, 07:49 PM
He made all the other scores 1, so I just thought 'why not make Int 1 too?'. It wouldn't change much of anything. Maybe you'd forget how to perform most skills (including physical skills; heck maybe most class features have a degree of failure due to limited neural processing capacity). But not much else.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but having Int set at 3 was most likely because 3 is the minimum needed to be considered not an animal. It's also the minimum for humanoids.

Beorn080
2010-07-19, 08:08 PM
Would a Soul Bow be any good? Its not optimal, but would alleviate encumbrance issues with that low strength.

Coidzor
2010-07-19, 09:05 PM
No, outfits can be purchased. In the SRD, they have weights and prices - royal attire complete with everything is about 20 pounds (I think).

Though most people just assume that adventurers are wearing whatever they typically would wear or were wearing according to their background (which could be jeans and a t-shirt or naked for all we know).

You get a free outfit to choose from, in 3.0 it was basically the one your class got or a cheaper one trading down. Most were in Travelers or Explorers outfits, except for monks who had monks or peasants outfits.

But, well, anything other than a peasant or monk outfit will encumber a character like this. Then again, they're pretty much unable to hit anything even if they had a weapon, and can only deal one damage due to the minuses they have... well, unless they wanted to be encumbered by a greatsword and just have no chance to hit except on a nat 20....

Table: Clothing

1. These items weigh one-quarter this amount when made for Small characters. Containers for Small characters also carry one-quarter the normal amount.

Goods Cost Weight
Artisan’s outfit 1 gp 4 lb.1
Cleric’s vestments 5 gp 6 lb.1
Cold weather outfit 8 gp 7 lb.1
Courtier’s outfit 30 gp 6 lb.1
Entertainer’s outfit 3 gp 4 lb.1
Explorer’s outfit 10 gp 8 lb.1
Monk’s outfit 5 gp 2 lb.1
Noble’s outfit 75 gp 10 lb.1
Peasant’s outfit 1 sp 2 lb.1
Royal outfit 200 gp 15 lb.1
Scholar’s outfit 5 gp 6 lb.1
Traveler’s outfit 1 gp 5 lb.

TurtleKing
2010-07-20, 12:50 AM
What nobody wants to expand on the prinny. They are very fun to play if you don't mind being kicked around alot, which would happen to a character with those stats. Having that template would make where he survives longer, and actually has some potential. They also don't lose the racial modifer to their mental stats, which means they keep the mental racial bonus/ penalty. They do however lose the physical racial bonus/ penalty. The prinny can also qualify for templates such as Monster of Legend since they are undead/ magical animal.

In my campaign Squee (prinny version) could have these stats:
STR-13, DEX-9, CON-13, INT-10, WIS-8, CHA-8

Monster of Legend adds: Str-10, Dex-6, Con-10, Int-2, Wis-2, Cha-2 plus several other nice abilities.
Evolution +2 to each stat (campaign specific): The world is harsh, and it is either adapt or die so inhabitants adapted. The lowest any of the stats can now go is 3 instead of 1. If a creature does not have a number in a certain stat, then it does not gain the +2 to that particular stat (ex: undead's CON).
Venerable: at venerable a character as -3 to Str, Dex, and Con, but gains +3 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
Prinny (race/ template- homebrew): virtually indestructible, has 1/ day bomb, infinite daggers, and explodes when thrown. The prinny also has a bag that works just like a bag of holding that does not encumber the prinny. The prinny also loses it previous physical bonus/ penalty, but retains its previous mental bonus/ penalty. So in regards to venerable the prinny now as Str, Dex, and Con modifer of +0, and a Int, Wis, and Cha modifer of +3.

Even though I have only skimmed through this thread it looks like this could be the most powerful build yet without including a class. Percentage of power: Monster of Legend- 50%, Prinny- 45% (prinnys are actually quite broken ex: indestructible), Evolution +2- 2.5%, and Venerable- 2.5%.

So a little challenge for you now. What class could work with the stats and abilities that have been listed for Squee my venerable prinny of legend?

Kylarra
2010-07-20, 01:04 AM
No, outfits can be purchased. In the SRD, they have weights and prices - royal attire complete with everything is about 20 pounds (I think).

Though most people just assume that adventurers are wearing whatever they typically would wear or were wearing according to their background (which could be jeans and a t-shirt or naked for all we know).You're half correct. Correct in that they can be purchased, incorrect in negating the statement.


A beginning character is assumed to have an artisan’s, entertainer’s, explorer’s, monk’s, peasant’s, scholar’s, or traveler’s outfit. This first outfit is free and does not count against the amount of weight a character can carry.

So our hypothetical character is not weighed down by his very clothes by default.

imp_fireball
2010-07-20, 05:32 AM
because 3 is the minimum needed to be considered not an animal.

The rules don't explicitly state it. They only say that 'animals never have an Int above 2'. You're reasoning is purely inductive.

Eldariel
2010-07-20, 08:14 AM
The rules don't explicitly state it. They only say that 'animals never have an Int above 2'. You're reasoning is purely inductive.

Char Creation Guidelines however clearly state you won't get under 3 Int. No, not even then.

Kaulesh
2010-07-20, 11:29 AM
Char Creation Guidelines however clearly state you won't get under 3 Int. No, not even then.

I was thinking about this also, but didn't type it. Even if you roll 3 Int and want to be a Half-Orc, you still have 3.

TurtleKing
2010-07-20, 12:15 PM
The prinny does not have to worry about clothes for they are sown into their prinny suit. Anyone trying to remove a prinny's soul from his body recieves divine retribution. I am allowing the playgrounders to pick the special abilities from the Monster of Legend template since that could affect what class you decide could go with those stats/ abilities.

imp_fireball
2010-07-20, 08:15 PM
Char Creation Guidelines however clearly state you won't get under 3 Int. No, not even then.

I already explained that if you were to roll under 3 on character creation then you'd be an animal. Otherwise you're not automatically an animal if you happen to get drained below 3.

The RAW rules don't state that creature type changes under any specific shift in ability scores. What I'd explained was only to clear up potentially contrived roleplaying - wherein someone forgets to talk, which is silly really; you can't forget how to talk unless someone specifically extracts and/or wipes such knowledge from your mind, not if they lower your intelligence score to a certain point.

If you're arguing about the fact that, outside of rolling up a character, a person's intelligence can never be lowered below 3, you're very wrong. If it couldn't happen, then the rules wouldn't tell you what happens when if you're int becomes 0.


Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.

Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.

Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Examples of...

Str 0 - Complete spinal cord paralysis. Chemical induced paralysis. Multiple Sclerosis at its worst stage.

Dex 0 - Severest cerebral palsy.

In either the case of Dex or Str, the character can still see and hear everything around them as well as think perfectly. They may or may not talk at GM discretion.

Examples of...

Con 0 - Massive stroke or heart attack resulting in immediate death. Necrosis of vital organs. Death by incurable diseases such as ebola or cancer.

Int 0 - Severe brain damage. Most developmental disabilities can never get this bad unless they maybe result in seizures that lead to this sort of brain damage.

About Intelligence and Int 0: Character can still breathe and all vital organs still function because these are automated functions of the body and brain. They cannot talk because they simply cannot think period - their are little to no brain waves (or none at all - I haven't really studied brain waves and their connection to sentient processes though). Note that animals can think because they are sentient. Sentience indicates consciousness and is likely linked to the cerebrum. Creatures of less then 3 Int largely depend on instinct - coded functions of brain and body. Most sentient creatures likely have emotions, complex or not. Sapience indicates 'reasoning' and applies to creatures of 3 int or higher.

Sapient creatures can talk because they are smart enough to learn how to - not because the definition of sapience = you can talk or know a language. Sapience theoretically applies when an animal's body has enough left over energy to worry about things other than just survival, such as brain development (likely what occured with mankind and its early ancestors, whom were essentially tall apes that lived in high grass lands filled with low trees and came to consume a lot of both meat, fruits and plant matter which led to excess calories, AKA energy yield) - but in order for that to occur, the creature must evolve.

Examples of...

Cha 0 - Low functioning severe autism. Leads to having no will to do anything for yourself or care about others, because you cannot perceive the significance of others in any context.

About Cha 0: At GM discretion, you can get up and walk, but you must be assisted and actually lead by another character (so the player can't choose where they want to go; this is roleplaying intensive, but then again anything charisma based pretty much is).

You may be able to talk, but characters must actively listen to you (costs an action maybe). For roleplaying purposes, anything you say may be slurred, mumbled or robotic, and seeming to entirely lack a will of its own - as if some other entity has possessed the voice and is using it as a puppet.
Note 'as if'; but feel free to declare that it really is another entity! Perhaps they have done a very poor job of possessing you and have pretty much mind-screwed you as a result - they still retain some kind of loose connection where your character or it emerges subtly from the disoriented depths of your mind.

Finally, you will never engage people in conversation.

Examples of...

Wis 0 - To be so paranoid that you cannot move. Severest dementia. To be so weak of will that the threads of reality overcome you and your mind disconnects from your body (the bad kind of out of body experiences!).

At GM Discretion, you can see other people but you won't recognize them as anyone you know. You may be afflicted with an uncontrollable seizure. While helpless, your body might randomly move to one space or another every so often unless you are held down. Finally, you may end up babbling uncontrollable nonesense like a cliche mad man.


Anyone trying to remove a prinny's soul from his body recieves divine retribution.

Like what exactly? A deity's foot coming down on top of them?

Fax Celestis
2010-07-20, 08:30 PM
So what if you just made a character that somehow, someway, ended up with ability scores like such: Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1.

What would you do if you still wanted to continue playing with that character and really liked it?

I would ask a wizard to polymorph any object me into an adamantine ball and chain attached to one of the other PCs so I could complete dragging down the rest of the party as much as possible.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-20, 08:38 PM
I would ask a wizard to polymorph any object me into an adamantine ball and chain attached to one of the other PCs so I could complete dragging down the rest of the party as much as possible.

I almost thought that was going to be a reference to this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%84R) Then I actually read your response.:smallsmile:

Hague
2010-07-20, 08:42 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't rise as a ghost without the appropriate charisma score. At best, you could become a ghost brute.

imp_fireball
2010-07-20, 09:16 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't rise as a ghost without the appropriate charisma score. At best, you could become a ghost brute.

Well, yeah a ghost has to care enough about social affairs to want to make his mark on the world or complete 'unfinished business'. People with less then X charisma (whatever it is needed for ghosts) generally don't care enough about social affairs. Those that do generally live crappy lives and upon death will have their souls thinking 'what's the use of going back?'.

Of course, there are abnormalities to this quirk of human nature. That's where the brutes usually come in, I'd say - which can lead to intelligent brutes that talk rather then dead animals which RAW seems to suggest; they'd probably still behave largely like brutes though, whether friendly or not. And by that I mean, they'd probably be of less significance to the players since they tend to attract less attention as the sole figures of a haunting. This is all a good GM strategy when it may turn out that they are in fact the sole figures of a haunting and just happen to have a bunch of non-brute ghosts there to assist them (perhaps they were all buddies in life, assisting the brute in social matters).


I would ask a wizard to polymorph any object me into an adamantine ball and chain attached to one of the other PCs so I could complete dragging down the rest of the party as much as possible.


Aww... so, not an improvised weapon with a personality and the ability to curse or benefit whoever wields you?


So our hypothetical character is not weighed down by his very clothes by default.

This is probably because the character has grown so used to wearing these clothes. They only weigh a few pounds at the most, so they would gain absolutely no strength bonus for doing so - unless their strength happened to be about 1, maybe (even then, I don't know - haven't done the calculations).

TurtleKing
2010-07-20, 10:10 PM
Any polymorph spells or anything else that could change the form of a prinny automatically fail. They can not wear armor for any reason (divine punishment). Hunting parties are sent out to round up rogue prinnies, and those parties go after the bosses who have breached the contract. The hunting parties could be lead by an avatar of one of the prinny gods who also stop any who try to end a prinnies sentence.

The prinny I played managed to evade the hunting parties for six thousand years, which is probably the reason why he recieved the Monster of Legend template:smallbiggrin:.

Urpriest
2010-07-20, 10:15 PM
Marshal 20. Choose to ally with your enemies every encounter, and you'll be an excellent debuffer.

Fable Wright
2010-07-21, 04:38 PM
... I decided that this would be hilarious to play. So, I started a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161096), if anyone wants to try out their ideas or DM... go right ahead. :smallbiggrin:
This is an experiment to see just how many people play D&D just for the laughs... myself included.

Tetsubo 57
2010-07-21, 05:49 PM
With stats this bad you aren't even smart or wise enough to commit suicide. On the plus side you aren't smart enough or wise enough to know how horribly you have been screwed by the gods. I suggest 20 levels in Village Idiot.

Morph Bark
2010-07-21, 06:17 PM
Marshal 20. Choose to ally with your enemies every encounter, and you'll be an excellent debuffer.

Isn't +1 the minimum for minor auras?


... I decided that this would be hilarious to play. So, I started a thread, if anyone wants to try out their ideas or DM... go right ahead. :smallbiggrin:
This is an experiment to see just how many people play D&D just for the laughs... myself included.

/joining :smallamused:

TurtleKing
2010-07-21, 06:23 PM
What is the name of the post. Laughter is the best medicine.:smallbiggrin:

Fable Wright
2010-07-21, 06:32 PM
Added a link to the post. Here it is again. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161096)

Ingus
2010-07-22, 04:44 AM
I fail to see how any level of creativity could compensate for an INT so low that you can't cast any spells. Plus characters with an INT of 3 shouldn't be very creative, & with a WIS of 1, they'd be wasting all their money on lottery tickets & halfling rehab programs. Unless you happen upon a magical shape-changing effect, you're hosed no matter what.

It would be neat to roleplay a character who was cursed to have such low stats without carrying around some fragile McGuffin, though. a real test of character.

your buddy bard/rogue/artificer/warlock using a scroll of Polymorph any Object to grant you Str, Dex, Con and Int of the monster you're transformating in. Then you've your power back

Morph Bark
2010-07-22, 08:12 AM
your buddy bard/rogue/artificer/warlock using a scroll of Polymorph any Object to grant you Str, Dex, Con and Int of the monster you're transformating in. Then you've your power back

It would take a while to get to that point from level 1 though, considering PaO is an 8th-level spell. Sure, there might be ways of getting a scroll of it at level 1 and someone with a high enough UMD modifier to pull it off casting on you, but the chances are small.

Thinking about that though, since a Cleric, Sorcerer or Wizard needs to be of caster level 15 at least to be able to learn and cast the spell of their own power, perhaps we should find a bunch of creatures a 1-HD human can be polymorphed into and pick which has the highest Str/Dex/Con/Int combo.

Does PaO also have the HD limit that Polymorph has? If not, I guess it's possible to get the subject turned into a Colossal dragon.