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WarKitty
2010-07-18, 09:46 PM
So I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with UMD. DM'ing a mid-level campaign, I dropped a very powerful (albeit limited) plot artifact in the player's laps. One that normally requires a very specific long ritual to activate.

The response: "I have the bard inspire competence on me and take 10 on my UMD check." Thankfully the situation was averted this time, but I have a feeling it's going to become a problem later.

So my basic deal: how do you make a properly scaling UMD system? I really don't like the flat DC as it is now. My level 10 characters can pretty much UMD anything they want to including high-level artifacts, while characters in our lower-level campaign can't even UMD a simple 1st level wand without serious risk.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-18, 09:47 PM
You can't.

Skills are too pumpable. See also, truenamer.

Prodan
2010-07-18, 09:50 PM
The response: "I have the bard inspire competence on me and take 10 on my UMD check." Thankfully the situation was averted this time, but I have a feeling it's going to become a problem later.


You can't take 10 on UMD checks unless you are an Artificer, Warlock, Rogue with Skill Mastery (debatable), or Exemplar.

WarKitty
2010-07-18, 09:59 PM
You can't take 10 on UMD checks unless you are an Artificer, Warlock, Rogue with Skill Mastery (debatable), or Exemplar.

Good point. Still, they can get their check bonuses high enough to be able to keep trying without penalty, and the worst that can happen is a natural 1 meaning they can't try again for a day.

aivanther
2010-07-18, 10:02 PM
As a player who has never DMed: You're the frigging DM. You inform them that UMD does not mean you can pick up Random-Artifact-of-Mystery roll a dice and use it like a pro. Wands and scrolls make sense, they're common enough that familiarity justifies a roll of simple ability. But a specific item with specific requirments is no to UMD.

Ranos
2010-07-18, 10:10 PM
You can't straight out stop them from activating it. But there are a few ways you can make stuff more difficult.

-Sentient artifact. They activate it, but he doesn't necessarily like them.
-Artifact restricted to a certain race. Sure, they can emulate that race at the beginning, but the moment they stop emulating while still wearing it (race emulation only lasts an hour, and they have to sleep eventually, right ?), the protection measures activate.
-Cursed artifact. They activate it ? Good for them :smallamused:


DO NOT do this every goddamn time though. Seriously.

Prodan
2010-07-18, 10:13 PM
-Artifact restricted to a certain race. Sure, they can emulate that race at the beginning, but the moment they stop emulating while still wearing it (race emulation only lasts an hour, and they have to sleep eventually, right ?), the protection measures activate.

Michael Jackson pretended to be a human for years though.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-18, 10:27 PM
Michael Jackson pretended to be a human for years though.
Yeah, but I think he got a string of ones on his disguise checks in the later years. Yoiks!

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-18, 10:34 PM
Say you have a staff of storms, one of the spells contained with in is control weather. It takes 10 minutes to cast control weather from the staff. PERIOD end of story. No amount of UMDing can speed up that activation.

UMD lets you mimic certain requirements to use an item, ability scores, class feature, race, alignment. You can also activate an item blindly, which I assume is what the party is doing.

Use Magic Device takes no action on its own its part of whatever action is required to use the item. If the ritual takes eight hours to activate the item. It takes the same amount of time to activate it blindly.

Lastly its an artifact you can simply say without the ritual the item has no power to do anything.

UMD can't do everything, Relics require either a feat or the expenditure of a sixth level divine spell slot to activate their full power.
UMD is useless in this case, the skill can't mimic feat requirements, and it can't actually give you a spell slot to expend, The same can be applied to an item activated by ritual.

I'd also say that a full scale ritual is to big and to complicated for UMD to fake with activate blindly which makes more sense for items that are activated quickly.

Ranos
2010-07-18, 10:46 PM
UMD can't do everything, Relics require either a feat or the expenditure of a sixth level divine spell slot to activate their full power.
UMD is useless in this case, the skill can't mimic feat requirements, and it can't actually give you a spell slot to expend, The same can be applied to an item activated by ritual.

Depending on his PCs' resourcefulness, this is more of a speedbump than anything, really. Nothing stopping them from getting that feat, either from level up or through a myriad of other ways.

I agree with the rest of your post, though I don't really think the PCs were attempting to bypass the activation times at all. Just them activating the artifact at all was the problem.

faceroll
2010-07-18, 11:00 PM
Let them UMD it to have it use it's mundane powers, like the Staff of Everfrost still lets you get off a polar ray 1/day, but no fimbulwinters. Or the One Ring will turn you invisible, but it's not like you're going to be able to bend the Ring to our will and rise as Sauron II.

WarKitty
2010-07-18, 11:12 PM
Unfortunately it *is* something they are supposed to be able to use eventually. And it's a single power, activation binds it to a specific pair of characters until one of them dies. It's just...they're supposed to have to WORK to figure out what it does and how to use it, and go through the ensuing ritual. Not just roll a die until it works.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-18, 11:22 PM
Depending on his PCs' resourcefulness, this is more of a speedbump than anything, really. Nothing stopping them from getting that feat, either from level up or through a myriad of other ways.

I agree with the rest of your post, though I don't really think the PCs were attempting to bypass the activation times at all. Just them activating the artifact at all was the problem.
I wasn't suggesting using the relic method to limit the artifact, I was simply pointing out there are things that no UMD check can duplicate and the artifact could have something along those lines.


Unfortunately it *is* something they are supposed to be able to use eventually. And it's a single power, activation binds it to a specific pair of characters until one of them dies. It's just...they're supposed to have to WORK to figure out what it does and how to use it, and go through the ensuing ritual. Not just roll a die until it works.

You said its an artifact, DM flat you can't UMD it. Artifacts tend to be beyond mortal magic so its perfectly fine to make it beyond mortal skill. If artifacts had to follow the normal rules they wouldn't be artifacts. Or simply have the ritual not activate the item, but stop the magic killing you one week from activation.

Ranos
2010-07-18, 11:23 PM
Well then, I guess you're out of luck. If it's any consolation, at those levels, divination makes information gathering a trivial task anyway.

Or you could go with the old cliche of "Gather all the parts of the artifact to activate it". That's pretty much the same, isn't it ?



You said its an artifact, DM flat you can't UMD it. Artifacts tend to be beyond mortal magic so its perfectly fine to make it beyond mortal skill. If artifacts had to follow the normal rules they wouldn't be artifacts. Or simply have the ritual not activate the item, but stop the magic killing you one week from activation.

Nah, they're still magic items. It's always better to work within the framework of your player's abilities rather than negate them through fiat.

AsteriskAmp
2010-07-18, 11:27 PM
You could either make the artifact do them severe damage each time they try unseccesfully, or you could simply negate them the ability to roll for it's activation.

elonin
2010-07-18, 11:29 PM
The pc does have to know what aspects they want to emulate.

Another_Poet
2010-07-18, 11:41 PM
I don't think you are ruling UMD correctly.


a very powerful plot artifact ... that normally requires a very specific long ritual to activate.

The response: "I have the bard inspire competence on me and take 10 on my UMD check."

You can use UMD to activate it blindly but it will not speed up how long the activation takes. The UMD entry says: "Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action... You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check."

So if the ritual takes 2 hours normally, it takes 2 hours with UMD too.

Additionally, I think a fair house rule would be that if the ritual requires an expensive or unique material component, you can't UMD it without that component.


My level 10 characters can pretty much UMD anything they want to including high-level artifacts

Yep. Good for them, for buying ranks. 3.5 is all about magic items and this allows the non-wizards to get in on the action (your special artefact notwithstanding).


while characters in our lower-level campaign can't even UMD a simple 1st level wand without serious risk.

This is why I think you are ruling it wrong. There is no serious risk.

Let's assume a 3rd level character, since that is about the earliest that they can afford enough wands to circulate them to the non-wizards. Max ranks (6) plus a Cha of 14 (+2) is a modifier of +8, average roll of 18.

The DC on a wand is is 20 and you have to miss by 10 or more to have a mishap. They only suffer a mishap on a natural 1 or 2, 10% of the time.

When they do have the mishap, it either "affects the wrong target" (meaning it is only as "serious" of a risk as you the GM choose to make it) or it deals 2d6 damage to them. Any 3rd level character can soak up 7 damage, or even the maximum of 12 damage and survive.

Only if they are using a scroll is there a chance of other types of mishaps.

I think if you refresh yourself on the RAW for UMD and enforce them more closely you will have less problems. The artefact won't be any easier to activate, it'll just be possible for more character classes; and in low level games there won't be serious risk.

If you really want to rewrite it to make it scale more, make the DC for artefacts 1d20+10+CL. You roll the DC each time and they never know quite how hard it will be, plus the average DC is higher than the listed 25.

ap

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-18, 11:46 PM
Well then, I guess you're out of luck. If it's any consolation, at those levels, divination makes information gathering a trivial task anyway.

Or you could go with the old cliche of "Gather all the parts of the artifact to activate it". That's pretty much the same, isn't it ?

Nah, they're still magic items. It's always better to work within the framework of your player's abilities rather than negate them through fiat.

No its not always better, its usually better but nothing is ever always An antimagic field negates the abilities of spellcasters. So why can't an artifact be to powerful to be activated blindly?
Their artifacts they get to be special, if all else fails make it intelligent an it can simply refuse to be activated if the ritual isn't performed.

And if your an absolute stickler, go back to the ritual doesn't activate the item, it stops its magic from killing you. So sure they can activate it blindly but one of them will be killed by a horrible curse within a week.

You also severely over estimate the power of divination. That information is always cryptic and incomplete and the DM is free to drag out the clues for 20 levels if he wishes. Artifacts shouldn't be effected by divinations to begin with anyway. As the DM should control when they appear not the players.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-19, 04:06 AM
Artifacts are, in a way, plot devices. Thus, it is entirely appropriate to rule that this particular artifact has a latent ability that prevents it from being UMD'ed.

I've used artifacts in the past that have such a strong aura that using Detect Magic on them causes acute headaches. It's the same idea: an artifact is so powerful that it may distort the common effects of regular low-level spells and abilities.

PapaNachos
2010-07-19, 04:18 AM
I would agree with the idea that it can't simply be UMDed. Though I would give them some sort of hint to help them pick up the trail.

AslanCross
2010-07-19, 04:23 AM
As a player who has never DMed: You're the frigging DM. You inform them that UMD does not mean you can pick up Random-Artifact-of-Mystery roll a dice and use it like a pro. Wands and scrolls make sense, they're common enough that familiarity justifies a roll of simple ability. But a specific item with specific requirments is no to UMD.

This. UMDing is the metaphysical equivalent of kicking an uncooperative machine until it works. I don't think an artifact should respond to it.

Killer Angel
2010-07-19, 04:25 AM
You can't take 10 on UMD checks unless you are an Artificer, Warlock, Rogue with Skill Mastery (debatable), or Exemplar.

I don't think it's debatable. You can't take 10 on UMD with Rogue's Skill Mastery.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-19, 05:00 AM
This. UMDing is the metaphysical equivalent of kicking an uncooperative machine until it works. I don't think an artifact should respond to it.

Unless they kick back.

AslanCross
2010-07-19, 05:09 AM
Unless they kick back.

That works pretty well too. I guess we could say it CAN respond, just not in a necessarily favorable way.

Prime32
2010-07-19, 06:50 AM
One fix I've seen for UMD split up the various functions among multiple skills. It's a Knowledge (religion) check to emulate an alignment, a Spellcraft check to emulate knowledge of a spell, etc.

lesser_minion
2010-07-19, 06:59 AM
I think you're basically free to ban UMD checks against artifacts. They are plot devices, after all.

The simplest fix to UMD would be to turn it back into a bard/rogue class feature. Splitting it up across different skills would also work, and would be a nice fix in its own right.


I don't think it's debatable. You can't take 10 on UMD with Rogue's Skill Mastery.

This. Skill mastery lets you take 10 when prevented by stress or distractions. It doesn't help you when the skill explicitly forbids taking 10.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-19, 07:04 AM
I'm not sure i understand what the problem is with UMDing the artifact.
The activation time won't change.
Any material components, spell components or the like are still necessary. UMD lets you pretend to BE something, but doesn't let you use something. If Artifact of Doom demands you to cast Flesh to Stone on it, pretending to be a wizard won't activate the artifact.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-19, 07:55 AM
No, but UMDing a staff of flesh to stone will do the job.

Follow the rules. If you want them to work for it, find a way that, within the rules, they'll have to work to sort it out. Don't play the "guess what the DM wants you to do" game. That game always sucks.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-19, 07:57 AM
No, but UMDing a staff of flesh to stone will do the job.

Indeed, but if they have the spell, they aren't "cheating" the spell slot. It's a resource expense just like having an actual caster there to cast. Thus why I'm not sure of what is the problem here.


Follow the rules. If you want them to work for it, find a way that, within the rules, they'll have to work to sort it out. Don't play the "guess what the DM wants you to do" game. That game always sucks.

ericgrau
2010-07-19, 08:03 AM
Artifacts are normally exempt from normal everything. UMD can't do that; at best it could let you activate an object blindly without knowing the command word, not without knowing some complex ritual. UMD is only pumpable through custom items which must be approved by the DM first. And ya, as said you can't take a 10. First step before fixing anything is to see what it already does.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-19, 08:11 AM
Personally, I wouldn't allow my players to use UMD to blindly activate an artifact under any circumstances. Using UMD to complete individual components of the activation sequence (as in the staff of flesh to stone example above) would be fine, just not blind activations.

Or if I did for some reason allow it, I'd make it a seperate "activate artifact" use of UMD with an epic level DC (like at least 40 or 50 or so) just because an artifact != average magical items.

lesser_minion
2010-07-19, 08:12 AM
Well, since the ritual is presumably an Incantation, which UMD doesn't cover at all IIRC, there isn't really any "going outside the rules" issue.

And yes, you can use UMD to make parts of the ritual easier, but you can't obviate any complex process with a single UMD check.

For future reference, it's DC 45 to convince an item that you are the rightful holder of some honour that includes it (the specific example given in D&D was the check to convince Pazuzu's weird scrying thing that you are the Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms. The folk example would be the sword in the stone).

WarKitty
2010-07-19, 09:45 AM
Ok for further clarification:

The specific item is a pair of wedding rings that magically bind the married parties together through a special ritual that has to be included in the wedding. So...problems:

(1) I really don't even know how UMD would work here. The ritual requires 3 participants (the couple and one officiant) and is permanent until one member of the couple is permanently dead or chooses not to be raised (although it ceases functioning during temporary death). They have the means to identify the item available to them, just our one party member with Spellcraft was out in a trap at the time.

(2) I don't want to nerf UMD completely, just in this one case. I've been dropping a lot of other magic items like wands and scrolls and I do want my non-casters to be able to use them fairly easily, possibly easier than the given DC 25.

lesser_minion
2010-07-19, 10:03 AM
In that case, you're definitely justified in ruling that UMD can't activate the rings in this one instance. Or that the players merely find a clue to the items, rather than an activation.

Person_Man
2010-07-19, 10:52 AM
In this case, I agree with the sentiment that as an artifact, you can Rule 0 that UMD doesn't work on it.

With normal magic items, keep in mind that UMD is a tool which makes weaker classes more powerful. Tier 1 and 2 classes don't need UMD, because they have spells and psionics. Tier 3 and lower Skill Monkeys desperately need it if they want to "keep up" with them in any meaningful way.

WarKitty
2010-07-19, 11:10 AM
In this case, I agree with the sentiment that as an artifact, you can Rule 0 that UMD doesn't work on it.

With normal magic items, keep in mind that UMD is a tool which makes weaker classes more powerful. Tier 1 and 2 classes don't need UMD, because they have spells and psionics. Tier 3 and lower Skill Monkeys desperately need it if they want to "keep up" with them in any meaningful way.

Which is actually my other point...I want to make UMD more powerful with regard to low and mid level magical items. E.G. a 1st-level spellcaster can cast "cure light wounds"? A 3rd-level rogue should be able to use a wand of cure light wounds reliably.

Edit: I like the idea that UMD'ing the rings would give some sort of clue to their function. Maybe "you get the sense that a complex ritual is involved in the activation" or something. I think I'll make them work with the local mages, it'll be good for their RP. We always get some good in-character angst when they have to work with someone else, my PC's are paranoid.

Aquillion
2010-07-19, 11:11 AM
So I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with UMD. DM'ing a mid-level campaign, I dropped a very powerful (albeit limited) plot artifact in the player's laps. One that normally requires a very specific long ritual to activate.

The response: "I have the bard inspire competence on me and take 10 on my UMD check." Thankfully the situation was averted this time, but I have a feeling it's going to become a problem later.

So my basic deal: how do you make a properly scaling UMD system? I really don't like the flat DC as it is now. My level 10 characters can pretty much UMD anything they want to including high-level artifacts, while characters in our lower-level campaign can't even UMD a simple 1st level wand without serious risk.If it is essential that your artifact not be UMDed, just tell them that this specific artifact is UMD-proof. Think carefully about that, though -- it can be bad for a DM to reflexively say no. Think about whether it would be balanced, whether it would disrupt your plans, and so on, and whether you can adapt to allowing it -- as a general rule, if you can do it without breaking stuff, it's better to say "yes" (or "yes, but here's the price...") rather than reflexively saying "no."

If you do have to say "no", it's better to limit it to this specific artifact. UMD is actually fairly balanced overall, in that it does a good job of bridging the gap between casters and non-casters without breaking anything (your artifact issues aside, which are fairly specific to your artifact and the role you presumably intend for it to play in your setting.) First-level characters shouldn't have many wands to go around activating, and if they could activate them easily, it'd be too easy to overshadow the limited spell supplies of first-level casters.

Players like to use their abilities, so it probably makes your players happy to be able to use their UMD cleverly to solve the puzzle posed by the artifact. (Yes, I know you probably don't feel it's very clever, since you've got your larger plot and intentions in mind, but they probably do, and that's what counts in terms of fun.) Think carefully before you take that away, and make sure you really have to.

Fitz10019
2010-07-19, 11:27 AM
The attempted UMD could trigger a visual effect, like an inscription on the ring to glow/become visible. "Til death do us part..." or something less obvious.

WarKitty
2010-07-19, 12:05 PM
The attempted UMD could trigger a visual effect, like an inscription on the ring to glow/become visible. "Til death do us part..." or something less obvious.

I will say, they would have been able to do everything just fine if they hadn't decided they needed to identify the rings RIGHT AWAY while the single party member with spellcraft was stuck in a soul gem.

Mnemnosyne
2010-07-19, 01:08 PM
Just take a lesson from the 2nd Edition Book of Artifacts under Creating Artifacts.

Guideline #1: Artifacts Cheat.

Simply put, artifacts make their own rules, no standard rules need necessarily apply to them. The basic concept of an artifact has not changed since 2nd Edition - even in 3.5, it's still a supremely powerful item of some sort, beyond the ability of any being to duplicate, which bends and breaks the laws of the multiverse to its own whim. They are capable of doing anything, even gods are subject to their power.

Why would a 10th level character's attempt at trickery get around such a supreme item's design or intent?

Person_Man
2010-07-19, 02:35 PM
Which is actually my other point...I want to make UMD more powerful with regard to low and mid level magical items. E.G. a 1st-level spellcaster can cast "cure light wounds"? A 3rd-level rogue should be able to use a wand of cure light wounds reliably.

Then house rule a change to the UMD Difficulty Chances. Right now they are fixed for everything but scrolls and deciphering written spells (emulating Read Magic):

{table]Task |Use Magic Device DC
Activate blindly |25
Decipher a written spell | 25 + spell level
Use a scroll | 20 + caster level
Use a wand | 20
Emulate a class feature | 20
Emulate an ability score | See text
Emulate a race| 25
Emulate an alignment | 30[/table]

You could change this to:
{table]Task |Use Magic Device DC
Activate blindly | +5
Decipher a written spell | 10 + spell level
Use a scroll | 10 + (2 * caster level)
Use a wand | 10 + (2 * caster level)
Emulate a class feature | 20
Emulate an ability score | 5 + Score Needed
Emulate a race| 25
Emulate an alignment | 30[/table]

If a spell that you are attempting to emulate is on multiple lists (like Charm Monster), you use the higher of the two lists. If a magic item does not explicitly duplicate a spell, then the DM assigns a number based on the spells/caster level needed to create the item. So if you want to activate a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, the DC is only 11, or DC 16 if the wand was unidentified. If you want to activate Staff of Charming, it would be a DC of 11 for the Charm Person spell or DC of 18 for the Charm Monster spell.