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View Full Version : Archmage Functionality? [3.5]



RndmNumGen
2010-07-18, 11:47 PM
Long Version:

I was looking at a Cleric/Wizard Mystic Theurge build, as the prospect of being able to cast both divine and arcane spells appeals to me(as well as having more total spells to cast than a sorcerer to boot, even if you have fewer spell slots above 7th level.) I'm very new to D&D so I don't know much of the mechanics, but seeing that I would need Wizard 3/Cleric 3 to unlock MT, which only goes up to level 10, I saw I had 4 more levels to fill. At first I though about filling those with an extra 4 Cleric or Wizard levels to get 9th level spell slots, but then I saw the Archmage...

The Archmage seems to be a somewhat weaker version of the Wizard. It has a lower BAB and Saves, but not by much, and has the same spell slots as Wizard would. The purpose of the class seems to be the High Arcana abilities which cost a permanent spell slot, but it doesn't specify if you can use these abilities as often as you want, or if you can only use it once a day as a spell would. If the former, that actually sounds like a neat little ability, since an unlimited at-will Arcane Fire might even be worth giving up a precious 9th level spell slot and being able to chose the element of all your spells would easily be worth a 8th level spell, but if you can only use these effects once it actually seems like a waste, since giving up a slot that can be used for a (4)6d6 Meteor Swarm is wasteful for a single 14d6 Arcane Fire.

Short Version:

Can anyone enlighten me exactly how the Archmage's High Arcana works, if you can use it multiple times per day or only once for the spell slot exchanged? Also, does it have to be an arcane spell slot or could you use a divine one?

Kylarra
2010-07-18, 11:58 PM
All of the High Arcana except the SLA are just always available.

Oddly enough it doesn't specify that the spell slot has to be arcane... so I guess in theory you could burn your other side's slots like a UM does for metamagic.

spoilering the high arcana text for length.
High Arcana

An archmage gains the opportunity to select a special ability from among those described below by permanently eliminating one existing spell slot (she cannot eliminate a spell slot of higher level than the highest-level spell she can cast). Each special ability has a minimum required spell slot level, as specified in its description.

An archmage may choose to eliminate a spell slot of a higher level than that required to gain a type of high arcana.
Arcane Fire (Su)

The archmage gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/level of archmage) that deals 1d6 points of damage per class level of the archmage plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell used to create the effect. This ability costs one 9th-level spell slot.
Arcane Reach (Su)

The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.
Mastery of Counterspelling

When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.
Mastery of Elements

The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. This ability costs one 8th-level spell slot.
Mastery of Shaping

The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.
Spell Power

This ability increases the archmage’s effective caster level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only). This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.
Spell-Like Ability

An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.

Temotei
2010-07-18, 11:59 PM
Okay, first of all, mystic theurge is generally terribad if you enter it the way it was intended to be entered. That said, don't let me stop you.

The archmage has the same BAB and Will save progression as the wizard.

Direct damage spells are pretty awful, and going by the same principle, arcane fire is pretty awful compared to a 9th-level spell.

An archmage needs a fairly heavy investment before entering, unfortunately. Skill Focus and two Spell Focus feats are not that great, and you need to be 12th level on top of that.

I don't see anything about requiring arcane spell slots, though. :smallamused:

Again, though, don't let me influence your decision. What's fun is fun. :smallbiggrin:

RndmNumGen
2010-07-19, 12:07 AM
Okay, first of all, mystic theurge is generally terribad if you enter it the way it was intended to be entered. That said, don't let me stop you.

Why is that? I'm still pretty new to D&D so I might be missing something important (this build is more of just daydreaming than something I actually plan to use).

Milskidasith
2010-07-19, 12:11 AM
Why is that? I'm still pretty new to D&D so I might be missing something important (this build is more of just daydreaming than something I actually plan to use).

You lose caster levels on both sides in exchange for more spells, which you never need that much anyway. Higher level spells are awesome.

MT also only goes ten levels, so in the end you wind up with a lot of levels in a class that, by the time you hit 20, doesn't do anything; 13th level cleric casting at level 20 is mostly useless, and level 17 wizard casting is sub-par compared to other wizards (alternatively, 17 cleric 13 wizard is equally useless on the wizard side).

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-19, 12:25 AM
If you want to go for a thurge, then you need to look for a way to enter it with less requierments then it looks like. Being three levels behind on each casting side is a terible problem. Being one level behind on one side and three on the other isn't so bad, becuse you have the main side loseing only a little but.

Open up Races of the Dragon. Inside there is a feat called versitile spellcaster. Also take metamagic feat highten. This will allow you to take a level of sorrcerer and use it to cast 2nd level spells. They are sucky spells, but they save you two levels, so it works. Now for the other side. You could go favored soul and use the same two feats to also qualify in one level.

Now you just pick one side and go with it until you meet the skill prereqs.

On the other hand there are better ways to do mix arcane and devine magic. Look at the arcane herophant. It has the same mix of casting, but it actualy gives features to the class. Then you use mystic thurge to finish out the build to gain an ending casting progresion of arcane 16 / druid 19. That is double nines, not bad.

Use the early entry on the arcane side and run with druid for four levels.

You need to be a druid though, but druids are great casters. You also get a boss pet, that you can buff to high heven, and do it all in armor, with a better BaB, and better HD.

Pick up the feat that lets you cast magic in wildshape. Be a super smart bear, rideing a super smart bear, summoning bears, and casting mass bears endurence, in armor!

RndmNumGen
2010-07-19, 12:55 AM
You lose caster levels on both sides in exchange for more spells, which you never need that much anyway. Higher level spells are awesome.

Hrm... point, I guess. The main reason I was looking at this was for what seemed to be unmatched versatility, but I guess having versatile spells several levels lower than your caster level isn't actually worth much...


If you want to go for a thurge, then you need to look for a way to enter it with less requierments then it looks like. Being three levels behind on each casting side is a terible problem. Being one level behind on one side and three on the other isn't so bad, becuse you have the main side loseing only a little but.

Open up Races of the Dragon. Inside there is a feat called versitile spellcaster. Also take metamagic feat highten. This will allow you to take a level of sorrcerer and use it to cast 2nd level spells. They are sucky spells, but they save you two levels, so it works. Now for the other side. You could go favored soul and use the same two feats to also qualify in one level.

Now you just pick one side and go with it until you meet the skill prereqs.

On the other hand there are better ways to do mix arcane and devine magic. Look at the arcane herophant. It has the same mix of casting, but it actualy gives features to the class. Then you use mystic thurge to finish out the build to gain an ending casting progresion of arcane 16 / druid 19. That is double nines, not bad.

Use the early entry on the arcane side and run with druid for four levels.

You need to be a druid though, but druids are great casters. You also get a boss pet, that you can buff to high heven, and do it all in armor, with a better BaB, and better HD.

Pick up the feat that lets you cast magic in wildshape. Be a super smart bear, rideing a super smart bear, summoning bears, and casting mass bears endurence, in armor!
:smalleek:

I appreciate your input, but I have barely any idea what you just said; I don't have access to any non-core material.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-19, 01:33 AM
basicly WoTC made another class that is exactly like the mystic thurge, but has more than just two sets of spellcasting. The only thing is you have to be druid on one side.

The problem with the double spellcasting classes is two fold.

First they have tough entry requierments that force spellcasters to break the basic rule of spellcasting, never, ever, lose spellcasting progresion. This is a serious problem, becuse when you hit encounters that expect you to be able to cast X, you can't cast it for another three levels. It leaves you permenantly behind. The way around this is to use feats that give you access to the requierd 2nd level spell without the need for multiple levels in a second class.

The second problem is that the early duel spellcasting classes had no added abilities over double spellcasting. This sounds like a minor problem, but in the end, it is oftine not worth the loss of spellcasting in one class to have two, lesser spellcasting abilities. The lack of class abilites like wild shape and the thousand things that most casting prestige classes add is a serious hit to the value of the class. Later WoTC started to not do this and gave the duel progresion classes special abilites that made them stand out.

If you are useing just core, I would suggest you play a straight castor rather than a thurge. It just doesn't pay out in the end. DnD is a co-op game, and it is better to do what you do well than do more stuff less well. You don't have the tools in your book case to make the class pay out more than you put in. If you do want to make a good duel progresion caster you need two books, Races of the Dragon and Races of the Wild. They have the tools you need to pull of a great duel progresion caster.

RndmNumGen
2010-07-19, 02:24 AM
Alright, thanks; that explained it better.

So it wouldn't really work as a player build then, but if I ever DM a game I could see using it as a NPC or BBEG(Since I could make it 2-3 levels higher than I would a similar Wizard or Cleric and have it at roughly the same power level).

faceroll
2010-07-19, 03:57 AM
Okay, first of all, mystic theurge is generally terribad if you enter it the way it was intended to be entered. That said, don't let me stop you.

The archmage has the same BAB and Will save progression as the wizard.

Direct damage spells are pretty awful, and going by the same principle, arcane fire is pretty awful compared to a 9th-level spell.

An archmage needs a fairly heavy investment before entering, unfortunately. Skill Focus and two Spell Focus feats are not that great, and you need to be 12th level on top of that.

I don't see anything about requiring arcane spell slots, though. :smallamused:

Again, though, don't let me influence your decision. What's fun is fun. :smallbiggrin:

Theurges get better in epic, with 2x the epic spells available.

Tshern
2010-07-19, 07:51 AM
Theurges get better in epic, with 2x the epic spells available.
Epic Mystic Theurge sucks, there's no reason to take it, since you ought to have 9th level spells from both sides already before epic with Ur-Priest shenanigans. The epic progression of MT is such that you only gain +1 arcane or divine casting per level. I think even levels gave a +1 divine casting and odd ones +1 arcane casting...

dextercorvia
2010-07-19, 08:31 AM
Hrm... point, I guess. The main reason I was looking at this was for what seemed to be unmatched versatility, but I guess having versatile spells several levels lower than your caster level isn't actually worth much...

By the time a MT gets its versatility (around ECL 8 or 9) a straight class caster doesn't need more slots than it has any more. If you want more sustainability in core, then Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) might be your thing. Power aren't quite as powerful as the most powerful spells of equal level, but they will definitely keep up (and they have some unique stuff that magic doesn't do). Casters have the most trouble at early levels, but Psions get the feat Psionic Talent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicTalent) which gives them extra PP, very helpful at early levels.

Cyrion
2010-07-19, 10:14 AM
The loss in casting ability really hurts starting at about 4th level and for a while after. Like you, I like the idea of the MT, but I think it's poorly executed because of the mechanics of 3.5. If you engage in long dungeon crawls where you need lots of spells and your party has neither a divine nor an arcane caster, there might be a good place for the MT, but that's a pretty small niche.

Mnemnosyne
2010-07-19, 08:48 PM
By the time a MT gets its versatility (around ECL 8 or 9) a straight class caster doesn't need more slots than it has any more. If you want more sustainability in core, then Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) might be your thing. Power aren't quite as powerful as the most powerful spells of equal level, but they will definitely keep up (and they have some unique stuff that magic doesn't do). Casters have the most trouble at early levels, but Psions get the feat Psionic Talent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicTalent) which gives them extra PP, very helpful at early levels.
Most importantly with Psionic Talent, when you hit level 7 you can use Psychic Reformation at a cost of 350 xp to switch it to a more useful power; at 7th level you're going to have 46 power points. +2 is pretty much irrelevant at that point, while it's pretty significant at 1-3.

If you're using the SRD or including the XPH in 'core', definitely look into psionics. They can be very versatile, and you can fake a little of what both divine and arcane casters can do.

dextercorvia
2010-07-19, 08:53 PM
Most importantly with Psionic Talent, when you hit level 7 you can use Psychic Reformation at a cost of 350 xp to switch it to a more useful power; at 7th level you're going to have 46 power points. +2 is pretty much irrelevant at that point, while it's pretty significant at 1-3.

If you're using the SRD or including the XPH in 'core', definitely look into psionics. They can be very versatile, and you can fake a little of what both divine and arcane casters can do.

You can get some crazy PP from Psionic Talent with the way it scales, though. Enough to still be very relevant at level 7.

Otodetu
2010-07-19, 10:02 PM
If you really want to be a core duel caster, then make sure it is in a low-powered or role-play intensive game, not a standard game (for the reason posted earlier).

complete arcane also has a feat that enables wizards to cast a 2nd level spell at first level, allowing them to enter certain classes quicker.

tyckspoon
2010-07-19, 10:06 PM
You can get some crazy PP from Psionic Talent with the way it scales, though. Enough to still be very relevant at level 7.

If you're willing to invest most/all your feats in it, sure (I could see some application for PsyWars, with their more generous bonus feats and desperately poor PP reserve) but pretty much every psionic build I've ever done has been too feat-intensive to make that viable, even if you just want a relatively basic set of tools like a psicrystal+Psicrystal Containment+Psionic Meditation+Linked Power.

Myth
2010-07-20, 03:55 AM
You came to the right place! Being new to DnD you must know a few things:

Spellcasters are gobs and oodles better than the non-caster classes, core or otherwise.

The extra books really widen the gap between spellcasters and the other classes.

There is a tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) and it's relatively accurate as far as powerscaling is concerned, even if it does not include ultimate optimization.

Someone always suggests Incantatrix.

It gets suggested for a reason.

Having full Wizard casting is the best thing in the game, closely followed by full Cleric and full Druid. That being said, never sacrifice caster levels unless the gain is greater then the spells lost. Usually it's not.

Direct damage spells don't scale with level and even if they do, HD and CON bonuses are more numerous than spell damage die. As such, don't go for a blaster build, go for battlefield control, debuffing, save or die, utility.

Read these guides (1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0), 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)) they will answer most of your questions.

Eldan
2010-07-20, 04:01 AM
Interestingly, Archmage is one of those few prestige classes for casters which actually does what caster classes are supposed to do: give something up for gaining something else. I mean, look at Incantatrix: they lose their familiar progression for free and improved metamagic! Oh the humanity, what a horrible loss.

Temotei
2010-07-20, 04:07 AM
Direct damage spells don't scale with level and even if they do, HD and CON bonuses are more numerous than spell damage die. As such, don't go for a blaster build, go for battlefield control, debuffing, save or die, utility.

Go for blasting if you want to. Doing that will still put you at a power level equal to that of some of the more powerful melee characters.

Myth
2010-07-20, 04:18 AM
Interestingly, Archmage is one of those few prestige classes for casters which actually does what caster classes are supposed to do: give something up for gaining something else. I mean, look at Incantatrix: they lose their familiar progression for free and improved metamagic! Oh the humanity, what a horrible loss.Or just give up your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2010-07-20, 04:21 AM
Ah, yes. Giving up the same thing several times :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2010-07-20, 09:35 AM
Interestingly, Archmage is one of those few prestige classes for casters which actually does what caster classes are supposed to do: give something up for gaining something else. I mean, look at Incantatrix: they lose their familiar progression for free and improved metamagic! Oh the humanity, what a horrible loss.Yes, archmage is one of the better designed PrCs in that regard.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-20, 09:51 AM
Yes, but it can pale when set beside all those PrC's designed badly in the players favor. 3.5 can be a mess at times.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-20, 09:52 AM
Interestingly, Archmage is one of those few prestige classes for casters which actually does what caster classes are supposed to do: give something up for gaining something else. I mean, look at Incantatrix: they lose their familiar progression for free and improved metamagic! Oh the humanity, what a horrible loss.
In theory, losing a access to a spell school should be a very serious issue. It's just not, because Conjuration and Transmutation trump all...

Prodan
2010-07-20, 09:59 AM
I mean, look at Incantatrix: they lose their familiar progression for free and improved metamagic! Oh the humanity, what a horrible loss.

Lightning Warrior.

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 10:53 AM
If you're willing to invest most/all your feats in it, sure (I could see some application for PsyWars, with their more generous bonus feats and desperately poor PP reserve) but pretty much every psionic build I've ever done has been too feat-intensive to make that viable, even if you just want a relatively basic set of tools like a psicrystal+Psicrystal Containment+Psionic Meditation+Linked Power.

Agreed. At some point you are going to want to do something more than just have a bucket of PP you can only spend at ML/round. That is when you Reform. Alternatively, just let your Psicrystal take PT a bunch of times, and Feat Leach when you need the boost.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 11:31 AM
Epic Mystic Theurge sucks, there's no reason to take it, since you ought to have 9th level spells from both sides already before epic with Ur-Priest shenanigans. The epic progression of MT is such that you only gain +1 arcane or divine casting per level. I think even levels gave a +1 divine casting and odd ones +1 arcane casting...

Yeah. You could alternate levels of wizard and cleric, and do better. The Epic MT class is truly terrible.

Gotta get your MT levels earlier. Then, epic is fun.

In defense of incantatrix, while it IS powerful, you do need to ban another school of magic to get in. That's a significant tradeoff, especially if you do focused specialist, like so many of us reccomend.