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Cardea
2010-07-19, 02:01 AM
Have there been any fixes/discoveries to the Battle Dancer class from the Dragon Compendium to make it functional or to have some sort of synergy-esque thing? Or any feats to support the class?

PId6
2010-07-19, 02:07 AM
As a rule, Dragon Compendium classes don't get any love. The best synergy you're going to get is taking a single level of it and then multiclassing to sorcerer.

Cardea
2010-07-19, 02:09 AM
Was afraid of that.
Perhaps Battle Dancer/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist. Wait, crap, no, need Stunning Fist for that.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-19, 02:10 AM
The class seems to be a mix of Bard and Monk.

I'd first add in some abilities from the Bard class and maybe a short spell list that include Illusion and Enchantment spells.

Staying unarmored makes sense, but staying unarmed doesn't. I'd include a list of light weapons that the class could use with an automatic Two-Weapon Fighting progression similar to a Ranger's.

Cardea
2010-07-19, 02:16 AM
The class seems to be a mix of Bard and Monk.

I'd first add in some abilities from the Bard class and maybe a short spell list that include Illusion and Enchantment spells.

Staying unarmored makes sense, but staying unarmed doesn't. I'd include a list of light weapons that the class could use with an automatic Two-Weapon Fighting progression similar to a Ranger's.

Yeah, I got that vibe from it, what with AC Boosts, Ally Boosts and Unarmored abilities.

Why Illusion and Enchantment? I'd be figuring more along the lines of Transmutation, if anything, to boost themselves in combat or otherwise.

Unarmed makes sense. They're technically dancing, and it's hard to dance when you've got a longsword and a short sword, or two daggers, in your hands. (The picture for the class says otherwise, but nyeh to the picture.

PId6
2010-07-19, 02:20 AM
Was afraid of that.
Perhaps Battle Dancer/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist. Wait, crap, no, need Stunning Fist for that.
Battle Dancer 1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +8

18th level sorcerer casting, 18 BAB, and Cha to AC while unarmored. You'll need to get all martial proficiencies though (Neraphim or Militia feat), and you need some form of early entry to get into Eldritch Knight (Sanctum Spell or Illumian or Versatile Spellcaster or Loredrake).

Overall, Soradins are probably better. Abjurant Champion already raises AC quite high, so Cha to saves is probably more worthwhile than Cha to AC. Still, this should work decently enough if you really want to use Battle Dancer in some way.

Cardea
2010-07-19, 02:23 AM
Battle Dancer 1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +8

18th level sorcerer casting, 18 BAB, and Cha to AC while unarmored. You'll need to get all martial proficiencies though (Neraphim or Militia feat), and you need some form of early entry to get into Eldritch Knight (Sanctum Spell or Illumian or Versatile Spellcaster or Loredrake).

Overall, Soradins are probably better. Abjurant Champion already raises AC quite high, so Cha to saves is probably more worthwhile than Cha to AC. Still, this should work decently enough if you really want to use Battle Dancer in some way.

Can you tell me where to find the Neraphim and Militia feats?
As well as where Loredrake can be found.

It sounds like a good combination. I'm gonna see how well it turns out on paper.

And yeah, I'm determined to find a way to make every base class useful in some aspect. The ones that are usually skipped over, anyways.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-19, 02:26 AM
Why Illusion and Enchantment? I'd be figuring more along the lines of Transmutation, if anything, to boost themselves in combat or otherwise.


Illusion spells to entertain and Enchantment spells to affect the minds of others. Those are the kinds of spells, if any, that a beautiful dancer might learn in their training to entertain a king/sultan/whatever.



Unarmed makes sense. They're technically dancing, and it's hard to dance when you've got a longsword and a short sword, or two daggers, in your hands. (The picture for the class says otherwise, but nyeh to the picture.


The class reminds me of the fight scene in The Mummy or Children of Dune where the fighters are wearing very little clothing but fighting with fast moving light weapons in two hands.

Besides, a dancer wouldn't learn to put power into her unarmed attacks like a Monk would.

PId6
2010-07-19, 02:42 AM
Can you tell me where to find the Neraphim and Militia feats?
As well as where Loredrake can be found.
Neraphim is a race in Planar Handbook. It has the distinction of being a native outsider at LA +0. Outsiders get Martial Weapon Proficiency for free.

Militia is a feat in Player's Guide to Faerun. It gives you Martial Weapon Proficiency.

Loredrake is a Sovereign Archetype in Dragons of Eberron which gives 2 free sorcerer levels to a true dragon. A Kobold with the Dragonwrought feat (Races of the Dragon) arguably qualifies. It's an extremely cheesy combo, however.

Morph Bark
2010-07-19, 05:07 AM
Battle Dancer 1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +8

18th level sorcerer casting, 18 BAB, and Cha to AC while unarmored. You'll need to get all martial proficiencies though (Neraphim or Militia feat), and you need some form of early entry to get into Eldritch Knight (Sanctum Spell or Illumian or Versatile Spellcaster or Loredrake).

Overall, Soradins are probably better. Abjurant Champion already raises AC quite high, so Cha to saves is probably more worthwhile than Cha to AC. Still, this should work decently enough if you really want to use Battle Dancer in some way.

Couldn't you do both? Battle Dancer 1/Paladin 2/etc.?

Kylarra
2010-07-19, 08:18 AM
Couldn't you do both? Battle Dancer 1/Paladin 2/etc.?Only if you waive alignment restrictions.

Morph Bark
2010-07-19, 08:22 AM
Only if you waive alignment restrictions.

There's always Paladin of Freedom. :smallamused:

Kylarra
2010-07-19, 08:30 AM
There's always Paladin of Freedom. :smallamused:Meh, PoF is overrated. Technically, you're correct I suppose, but the real problem is losing 3 caster levels so you can't get to 9 without cheese.

Cardea
2010-07-19, 10:22 AM
Illusion spells to entertain and Enchantment spells to affect the minds of others. Those are the kinds of spells, if any, that a beautiful dancer might learn in their training to entertain a king/sultan/whatever.




The class reminds me of the fight scene in The Mummy or Children of Dune where the fighters are wearing very little clothing but fighting with fast moving light weapons in two hands.

Besides, a dancer wouldn't learn to put power into her unarmed attacks like a Monk would.

Well, they do boost their allies with their dancing.
But still, would they not take more pride in their skill, rather than falsely improve it through means of magic? It is still called Battle Dancer.

Well, it's a Base Class, so there are always interpretations of it. In my mind, the unarmed attacks are them getting better at putting more and more momentum/force into their hits from their constant dancing.

Person_Man
2010-07-19, 11:13 AM
As written Battle Dancer offers:

Full BAB
Cha to AC when unarmored
Monk unarmed damage
Scout-ish bonus to speed
Pounce (at 11th level)
Several "dance" related abilities which all suck.
6 dead levels.


It's pretty much garbage. Like the monk, you'd basically have to rewrite the entire class to make it worthwhile for anything.

Cardea
2010-07-19, 12:54 PM
As written Battle Dancer offers:

Full BAB
Cha to AC when unarmored
Monk unarmed damage
Scout-ish bonus to speed
Pounce (at 11th level)
Several "dance" related abilities which all suck.
6 dead levels.


It's pretty much garbage. Like the monk, you'd basically have to rewrite the entire class to make it worthwhile for anything.

Holy crap, it's Person_Man.

Have you had any ideas on how to accomplish this?

Ideas thus far:

Add in spell list. Mostly Illusion/Enchantment/Transmutation, to keep in line with the buff/debuff aspect.

Fill in Dead Levels. Srsly.

Give signature ability, instead of gaining different Tumble abilities as it progresses. (It mimics the Knight's Challenge abilities and the Bard's songs. Blech.)

Person_Man
2010-07-19, 01:52 PM
Have you had any ideas on how to accomplish this?

In your mind, what is it that makes the Battle Dancer concept unique and separate from other classes? Because what you propose is basically a full BAB Bard or Beguiler. If that's what you want to play, then you can come very close to that with the various Gish builds that already exist. If that's not what you want to play, you need to come up with class features that speak to your idea of what makes the class interesting.

true_shinken
2010-07-19, 01:56 PM
Meh, PoF is overrated. Technically, you're correct I suppose, but the real problem is losing 3 caster levels so you can't get to 9 without cheese.

Seriously, gishes shouldn't care that much about 9th-level spells. They are not exactly 'gishy'.

Keld Denar
2010-07-19, 02:06 PM
While that is true, getting access to your mid level spells at mid levels is one of the things that make Gishes work. If you aren't getting 2nd level spells till ECL8, you are probably not doing it right. I find that 4th level spells are HUGE for most gishes, and not having them soon enough hurts your survivabilty.

If it was all about level 20, I'd agree with you, but being behind while leveling up is rough.

Greenish
2010-07-19, 02:11 PM
If you aren't getting 2nd level spells till ECL8, you are probably not doing it right.Aww, you've hurt the feelings of the practicers of ancient Suelian battlemagic.

Kylarra
2010-07-19, 02:15 PM
Seriously, gishes shouldn't care that much about 9th-level spells. They are not exactly 'gishy'.Thing is though, most non-swiftblade gishes do care about getting spells as fast as possible and throwing another level of noncaster into the mix slows down your progression, making your midlevels rather "interesting".

Cardea
2010-07-19, 02:45 PM
In your mind, what is it that makes the Battle Dancer concept unique and separate from other classes? Because what you propose is basically a full BAB Bard or Beguiler. If that's what you want to play, then you can come very close to that with the various Gish builds that already exist. If that's not what you want to play, you need to come up with class features that speak to your idea of what makes the class interesting.

Point proven and taken.

In that case...
-insert ramblings-
What makes a difference between a Base Class and a Prestige Class is that the Base Classes remain generic, and you can easily work within their specific boundaries. Their class feature set and skills are wide-arranged for the most part, allowing people to work with nearly unlimited characters. Wizards could be an Ultimate Magus, or it could be an Alienist. But an Ultimate Magus is not an Alienist, based on how the classes are played. Rogues are not always Assassins, and Monks are not always Kensais.

But there are always similarities between the classes. Ranger is akin to Druid, but also akin to a Fighter, but for different reasons. A Battle Dancer is like a Monk and a Scout currently, as well as a spell-less bard. But to make it unique, I'd have to present class abilities that made it so, but since it is a Base Class they would also have to be varied enough for people work with them.

Perhaps a choice from a pool of abilities that scale with levels, Bonus Feats to choose from (a), (b) or (c). Hrmm.... it goes on and on.

Note to self: Look at Skill Tricks revolving around Tumble.
Additional Note to Self: Make it so it's not Tumble oriented. Samurai was Intimidate oriented, and look where it got itself.