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JeenLeen
2010-07-19, 01:56 PM
I might try to convince my gaming group to try Shadowrun sometime in the future. We have the 4th version rulebook and some splat books.

Is there anything really broken or any rather common houserules? About half of our group are heavy optimizers (myself included) and we generally make as strong a character as we can conceive that still makes sense within the system's setting. If we do play, we'd like to enter with bans or rule changes that would prohibit or hinder the most broken things.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-19, 02:31 PM
Below is an exhaustive list of things that are broken in SR:

Everything :smalltongue:
However, this list is counterbalanced by making combat a game of rocket tag. It is insanely easy to die in SR, so you shouldn't really worry about having combat monsters walking around.

balistafreak
2010-07-19, 02:40 PM
+1. You might have the biggest combat capability out there, but it is startlingly easy to die/get disabled/whatever.

The classic example of "broken" is the crippling drug addict who can take insane jobs because he's got extra build points, but the funds from that job just go towards feeding his crippling drug addiction. It's a vicious cycle... and not really that broken. :smallbiggrin:

I'm sure there are some sorts of loopholes in the rules, but those should frankly be obvious after being unearthed, and subsequently banned.

The biggest problem I think was the idea that characters can take several rounds to a less powerful character's one with nothing more complex than a single spell or augmentation. At best this is boring for people who don't want to shell out for the magic/cyberware/bioware to get those extra turns, and at worst it makes them completely unable to compete. Common houserule is to ban all forms of turn manipulation; everyone gets their one turn, no extras.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-19, 02:47 PM
I'm sure there are some sorts of loopholes in the rules, but those should frankly be obvious after being unearthed, and subsequently banned.
SR4 actually does a "good" job of adding in "DM monitoring clauses" to all the broken stuff - unfortunately a DM who is unfamiliar with the system is probably not going to notice them right off the bat.

Far better to say "don't try to twink out on Merits/Flaws - it's boring and I'll make you pay" and then roll with whatever they make.

The "extra turn" fix makes sense but nerfs Wired Reflexes et al. to hell. Since Wired Reflexes are so central to the SR mythos, I'd just as soon let the Street Sams play while the 'casters and hackers run around with persistent spells and programs.

Plus, it's real easy to get high Initiative in SR regardless of your "class;" a player who refuses to take one of the many options is basically nerfing themselves. It's like playing a Street Sam and refusing to buy weapons or armor - you're missing the point of what it means to be 'runner.

balistafreak
2010-07-19, 02:55 PM
The "extra turn" fix makes sense but nerfs Wired Reflexes et al. to hell. Since Wired Reflexes are so central to the SR mythos, I'd just as soon let the Street Sams play while the 'casters and hackers run around with persistent spells and programs.

Plus, it's real easy to get high Initiative in SR regardless of your "class;" a player who refuses to take one of the many options is basically nerfing themselves. It's like playing a Street Sam and refusing to buy weapons or armor - you're missing the point of what it means to be 'runner.

The point I was trying to make was "either everyone has extra turns, so no one has extra turns" or "no one has extra turns". Either everyone in the party and their enemies have extra turns, so that the end result is the same, or you just flat-ban extra turns and let them spend their points elsewhere in the build.

Call it a sort of gentleman's agreement. "Since even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, you're all going to ensure you have the maximum amount of turns available to you as possible. However, because even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, I'm going to have to make your enemies keep pace with you... defeating the purpose of extra turns. To make things simpler, there are no extra turns in the first place."

Wired Reflexes may be part of the mythos, but when everyone has them they don't really do anything special in and of themselves. Just presume that everyone has some way of being fast, because they're runners, for god's sake.

Casters and hackers having "extra turns" doesn't really convince me either, because didn't I just ban all extra turns in the first place? Maybe I missed something about persistent spells. :smallconfused:

Or maybe I just didn't play with enough mooks. I've always preferred fighting against competent, equal level foes. The other way to balance it would be "Yeah, you have three turns to their one, but they outnumber you six to one, so it's all good"... which works too. The bookkeeping can get painful, though. :smallannoyed:

YMMV. It's just an alternate way of playing, not a necessary one.

JeenLeen
2010-07-19, 02:59 PM
SR4 actually does a "good" job of adding in "DM monitoring clauses" to all the broken stuff - unfortunately a DM who is unfamiliar with the system is probably not going to notice them right off the bat.

I did notice lines under some things, like the quality/trait (I forget the technical term) needed to become one of the magic-users or a technomancer, stating that although it's cheap, it's not something someone should get unless they plan on making that type of character.

Is it easily abusable to be a street samuri-type with one or two spells or technomancer programs?

kjones
2010-07-19, 03:02 PM
By "broken", do you mean "mechanically imbalanced", or do you mean "doesn't really work as a mechanic"? For the former, there's a lot of possibilities (Agent software, Mr. Lucky, the Pornomancer...) For the latter, there's still a lot of possibilities (Tactical vehicular movement comes to mind).

I'd recommend just getting into the game. The stuff that bothers you will become readily apparent in short order, and then you can houserule to your heart's content.

JaronK
2010-07-19, 03:02 PM
Shadowrun is nowhere near as broken as D&D. There's nothing like Flowing Time Genesis out there. With that said, Spirits are extremely strong and Stick and Shock ammo is a bit nuts. Otherwise... meh. It's a game where you can get shot and die if an enemy gets the chance, so the game is more about "how do we make sure our enemies don't get to chose what's going on, while ensuring we play on our playing field."

JaronK

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-19, 03:05 PM
Call it a sort of gentleman's agreement. "Since even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, you're all going to ensure you have the maximum amount of turns available to you as possible. However, because even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, I'm going to have to make your enemies keep pace with you... defeating the purpose of extra turns. To make things simpler, there are no extra turns in the first place."
Well, being one-turn behind shouldn't be an auto-lose. As a 'runner you shouldn't be taking on masses of boosted foes unless

(A) you have the element of surprise OR
(B) you have excellent force multipliers

It should work out such that all PCs are within 1 turn of each other with some of the NPCs maybe having a 1 turn advantage, but most being on par or lower than. Remember that not everyone in the SR Universe has high Initiative - but every 'runner needs to have one if they expect to survive in the Shadows!

Also, don't think of unboosted corporate security as being "mooks." They have good firepower, good armor, and excellent training. Just because not every one of them has Wired Reflexes III doesn't mean they're not good for their job - it's just that their job isn't to take on elite 'runner teams like your PCs. That's what Rapid Response Teams are for :smallamused:

EDIT: A brief description of Force Multipliers (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20080713.html). You can challenge a 'runner team without using another 'runner team - superor intel, numbers, or supplies can be more than enough to foil a 'runner team that thinks an extra Initiative Pass is all they need to run the table.

Bharg
2010-07-19, 03:13 PM
Below is an exhaustive list of things that are broken in SR:

Everything :smalltongue:
However, this list is counterbalanced by making combat a game of rocket tag. It is insanely easy to die in SR, so you shouldn't really worry about having combat monsters walking around.

This sounds a bit discouraging... :smallfrown:

I just got the german version of the 4th Edition Manual (which is full of eyecandy and well written short stories)...
You still like the game? Why would you recommend it or what is great about it for you?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-19, 03:36 PM
This sounds a bit discouraging... :smallfrown:

I just got the german version of the 4th Edition Manual (which is full of eyecandy and well written short stories)...
You still like the game? Why would you recommend it or what is great about it for you?
OK, full disclosure:
I am a SR fan from waaay back (OK, SR2) but I read over the SR4 book to see if it was worth upgrading. My opinion was that they boiled out the flavor of the previous editions without making it any easier to play.

That said, SR4 is an improvement on the previous editions for one simple reason - they made Deckers and Riggers playable classes.

In the previous editions, playing a Decker or a Rigger triggered what I dubbed "The Decker Problem" - you had a class that excelled in one particular area (i.e. decking) while being useless everywhere else. On the flipside, nobody else could do anything (realistically) while a Decker was doing their thing - each round of Decking took a microsecond game time but just as long in real time. Riggers were a less extreme - but similar - case.

I deplore many of the favor changes (wireless decking? Magical deckers? Shamans & Hermetics being identical?!) but if you really want to play a Decker or a Rigger, 4E is for you.
The important thing to remember is that Shadowrun isn't D&D. It isn't even Exalted. It is so easy to powergame SR (in any edition) that the term basically loses all meaning. However, it is such a lethal game that the rate of mortality between overpowered and underpowered characters is slight; the best way to survive in Shadowrun is by being a smart player not by being a powerful character.

So yeah, it's fun in a TSR D&D sense - your character is just a vehicle for the plot, not an end in itself. The real game is between the DM and the Players, with each trying to outsmart the other. If you like that kind of game, SR is for you; otherwise you probably should be playing GURPS or Rifts if you're looking for a nice evening of powergaming at its finest :smallbiggrin:

Bharg
2010-07-19, 03:46 PM
What do you mean by "did boil out the flavor"?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-19, 04:05 PM
What do you mean by "did boil out the flavor"?
Small Rant
Well, one of the roots of SR are William Gibbson's early works (e.g. Neuromancer, Count Zero) in which the blending of humanity and technology was a major theme. The fact that people had technology in them and, more importantly, plugged themselves into technology said a lot about the dehumanizing nature of the dystopian setting.

In SR4 you no longer are wired into infrastructure of a rotting world; information flies through the air and floats about everyone in their personal networks. Worse, technology is no longer antithetical to magic ("the old ways" in previous editions); you have technomancers who speak with the "spirits" of the net. Everyone has mobility and the chance to make their own space within this new world - the polar opposite of the deadly & frightening Matrix that Gibbson spawned.

Next, they took away the divide between Hermetic and Shamantic magic. Shamantic magic came from "the old ways" - a vaguely anarchic approach to life where spirits were everywhere and could be called upon by Shaman; yet those very Shaman were in thrall to their totem. Hermetic magic was the magic of the Megacorp - Science by other means. It was commodified and drained of vital energy by the Corps to create their "Wage Mages." 'Runner Hermetics, on the other hand, were more like "mad scientists" who thrilled at the rush of ruling this new crazy force with their own Willpower.

Now, both Shamantic and Hermetic magic are essentially the same - they summon the same spirits the same way, albeit with different names.

Bharg
2010-07-19, 04:22 PM
So you just don't like how the world of Shadowrun evolved?
Are there any grave changes in gameterms that make the game less enjoyable?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-19, 04:28 PM
So you just don't like how the world of Shadowrun evolved?
Are there any grave changes in gameterms that make the game less enjoyable?
Well, not mechanically.

As I stated, they didn't really make any important changes in the rules. Sure they altered die pools, karma, skills, etc. but in essence the system is just as complicated as it was before.

I've never been a believer that rules complexity = better game, so I would have been happy if they had made some reasonable alterations to the rules to make the game run smoother. But since they didn't, I have to choose based on other factors - and fluff is one of the things that I enjoy most about SR.

Still, if I wanted to run a game of SR and I had a player who really wanted to deck or rig, I'd probably use SR4 - provided someone loaned me a copy again :smalltongue:

Satyr
2010-07-19, 04:33 PM
Debatable. Older editions had a trigonal approach towards success rolls - with a variable target number, in relation to the number of dice to the number of successes and had a pretty neat system of resource pools were you could adjust the number of dices you roll for a particular option. 4th edition changed that to a two dimensional approach with a fixed target number, and that is just a little flatter. As far as I can tell - and I am not that familiar with the 4th edition rules as with its progenitors - it's not really much simpler, but mostly different. However, I don't think that this is a significant drawback for someone who is introduced to the game with the 4th edition and is therefore not used to the original system.

There was a Jump the Shark moment for Shadowrun, as far as I am concerned and that is that bulldrek Year of the Comet and its obnoxious muppets.

Aroka
2010-07-19, 04:45 PM
There was a Jump the Shark moment for Shadowrun, as far as I am concerned and that is that bulldrek Year of the Comet and its obnoxious muppets.

I was never "into" Shadowrun like I was into Cyberpunk 2020, but even so, reading the Companion with the satyrs and cyclops and drakes (I wish I was kidding) and the random mutants with blue fur or tails was a complete shock. It's so jarringly wrong for the setting, doesn't even begin to fit in anywhere, and doesn't even seem to be referenced much of anywhere outside that book. It's like it's describing some other game's setting entirely.

Edit: Admittedly, my players thought full 'borgs and power armor were a shark-jump for CP2020, whereas I love that stuff.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-19, 04:52 PM
Debatable. Older editions had a trigonal approach towards success rolls - with a variable target number, in relation to the number of dice to the number of successes and had a pretty neat system of resource pools were you could adjust the number of dices you roll for a particular option. 4th edition changed that to a two dimensional approach with a fixed target number, and that is just a little flatter.
Oh yeah, I forgot to emphasize this.

The rolling mechanic in SR4 is much cleaner than previous editions. And, while extra resource pools are fun they do make the game harder for newbies to pick up. It just so happens my local crew are all hardened veterans who just love the "pool" system.

For newbies, I'd definitely recommend SR4 over previous editions. If they're not already wedded to the fluff there's no reason for them to struggle with overly-complicated dice rolling systems.

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-19, 05:40 PM
Archer Adept Trolls. Can crank out enough Damage to put down a tank in a few shots. I think it needs an ability from a splat book though

Canibal Mages. Need the Streetmagic book, but can go infinite on stats

JaronK
2010-07-19, 05:50 PM
How are adept archer trolls broken? Yes, they hit hard... but with poor range for such a big weapon, no concealability, and little flexibility. You could almost certainly have also gotten a kill with a Sniper Rifle firing AV rounds... and still had the ability to collapse the rifle and leave stealthily, plus you could have been cybered instead and have flexibility.

Shadowrun is not about raw power. You're strong enough already. It's about figuring out how to apply that power effectively.

JaronK

Poil
2010-07-19, 06:02 PM
How are adept archer trolls broken? Yes, they hit hard... but with poor range for such a big weapon

900 meters is poor range? Max range is just a multiplier on strength which should be maxed out. Just a -3 to hit at it too. :smalltongue:

Pechvarry
2010-07-19, 06:30 PM
Something we like to use to alleviate the horrendous power of additional passes:

Up everyone's starting initiative passes. We're currently using 2 (a primary and a secondary, so to speak. plus extras from other sources) but 3 seems feasible if you don't mind thinking about how ridiculous your movement's getting diced up. With everyone having additional passes, the advantage of +1 pass is comparatively weaker.

As for the rules in general: it seems like many SR4 rules were written from conflicting viewpoints. Or at least very narrow viewpoints. For example, melee. Taking aside viability of melee and whether or not it should even be an option, their rules just aren't well justified. They say "it takes a complex action because you're dodging, feinting, grappling". But if the other guy has a gun, I need to jump kick him now or die. I am most definitely not pulling the ol' juke'n'weave. And so, even in melee range, you may be better off unloading a full auto burst on the rent-a-cop than cracking him in the head with your rifle butt.

Regrettably, I find myself running dry on other examples. Maybe I just don't know the system well enough. Also: it's awkwardly easy to blow yourself up with grenades.

Another_Poet
2010-07-19, 06:41 PM
The big things to note during char gen are:

-Wired Reflexes are unbalanced (Wired 1 gives you 1 extra turn per round of combat; powerful but not too bad. Wired 2 or 3 gives 2 or 3 extra turns and starts to make things ridiculous.) Magic equivalent is the same.

-Edge is the most powerful stat in the game, maybe put a cap on Edge or just give everyone the same fixed Edge score (plus/minus racial adjustments if any)

-Put a max on how many weaknesses can be taken to gain extra BP. Two is probably reasonable.

-Read about the max starting levels for skills and enforce them. If you have people spending their BP to raise a bunch of crucial skills to 6, you are doing it wrong. There are strict limits on starting skills for a normal game (even if you have more BP to spend) and you should check every sheet.

-If players complain about lethality, advise they consider the following things: a) better armour, b) better use of magic, c) dev their Dodge skill (I think that is what it's called), d) take the quality that lets you go more boxes before taking penalties, e) take the quality that makes it easier to heal you, f) remind them they can permanently burn a point of Edge to survive an otherwise lethal situation. Oh and also g) it's not D&D.

Other than that, good freakin' luck. Welcome to the jambalaya of rule systems.

JaronK
2010-07-19, 06:41 PM
900 meters is poor range? Max range is just a multiplier on strength which should be maxed out. Just a -3 to hit at it too. :smalltongue:

For an anti tank round, yes. Compare it to Assault Cannons and Missile Launchers (similar damage and lack of concealability). Even sniper rifles have better range without having to have a maxed out strength score. Plus, the skills for Assault Cannons, Missile Launchers and Sniper Rifles let you use a bunch of other weapons, while the skill for bows only gives you non concealable weapons that can't use burst fire or similar.

JaronK

Otodetu
2010-07-19, 07:32 PM
Wait, so you can kill a tank with a bow in that system?

How is that not a great benefit? a bow is like alot easier to get hold off than anti-tank weapons.

JaronK
2010-07-19, 07:55 PM
It's easier to get early on (and yes, it makes sense... modern compound bows are incredibly powerful, and a troll sized one would be twice the size with far more than twice the power behind it). But that's pretty much the only advantage of bows. Later on when you get access to more traditional tank killers the inflexibility of bows as a skill becomes a serious issue. I'm not saying it's an unviable tactic, but rather that it's just one of many tactics and hardly overpowered.

JaronK

Pechvarry
2010-07-19, 10:24 PM
-Put a max on how many weaknesses can be taken to gain extra BP. Two is probably reasonable.

I'm pretty sure SR4 has a cap to the amount of bonus BP you can obtain from positive qualities.

Ranos
2010-07-19, 10:49 PM
If you want concealability, get thrown.
Then take a handful of bullets and throw them faster than a gun ever could.

SuperCracker
2010-07-20, 12:42 AM
Hand-to-Hand combat is terrible in SR4. Last time I played was in SR2, and my sword-wielding Adept was viable.

Not anymore!

In SR4, Adepts are generally not as good as the other archetypes (they tried to fix this a bit with errata for certain power point costs, but it's still not good enough), and melee combat is a joke. It's a complex action that your opponent applies their full defense to. In gunfights: you can shoot twice (two simple actions) and I believe they only get their reaction.

Yes this is more "realistic." But it's way less awesome.

Pechvarry
2010-07-20, 12:57 AM
They don't necessarily get to apply Full Defense benefits, but they do get to add in an extra skill to their defense.

And don't forget, the moment you engage in melee, you take a penalty to your defense against other ranged attackers! See above for why Complex action for melee isn't even realistic.

Psyborg
2010-07-20, 01:02 AM
and melee combat is a joke. It's a complex action that your opponent applies their full defense to. In gunfights: you can shoot twice (two simple actions) and I believe they only get their reaction.

Yes this is more "realistic." But it's way less awesome.

This. Very much this.

Admittedly, in a world of automatic weapons, swords are going to be markedly less useful.

But for those of us who have a new-to-SR player whose heart is set on playing a sword-wielding adept, only to find out that no matter how much they minmax they still...kinda...suck? It's a bit of a downer.

Hawriel
2010-07-20, 02:23 AM
It deppends on what you're trying to call broken.

If you are asking what rules make you want to bang your had against the wall. Such as 3rd eds vehicle combat. Then yes there are things that are broken.

If your asking if somthing that can be exploited by a player to gain him an unfair advantege over NPCs and other players. I would say no. First reason is, shadowrun is one of thoughs settings that is going to screw a upstart powergamer over. There is always some one meener, smarter, ruthless, or more powerful that you. Any thing a PC can do NPCs can do.

Now I've only glanced through 4th ed. I have not seen any thing broken about the game. Not to my liking but thats just me.

Aroka
2010-07-20, 02:27 AM
Something to remember with all cyberpunk games: equipment is power. Seriously.

You need to realistically restrict access to equipment. In Shadowrun, there are great rules for this - it takes contacts, time, money, and good rolls to get your hands on anti-tank weapons (ones that aren't troll archer adepts, anyway) and great cyberware, and you really need to apply these. Remember, too, that PCs can't waltz around carrying machine guns and wearing hard armor and helmets; they should always want to not stand out from a crowd of random people.

Poil
2010-07-20, 03:23 AM
Melee doesn't suck if you're a martial artist adept. You get to brutalize people from several meters away depending on your magic attribute. One guy in my group curb stomped a vampire mage for 20 damage using that instantly killing it. Eat your hearts out dnd monks.


For an anti tank round, yes. Compare it to Assault Cannons and Missile Launchers (similar damage and lack of concealability). Even sniper rifles have better range without having to have a maxed out strength score. Plus, the skills for Assault Cannons, Missile Launchers and Sniper Rifles let you use a bunch of other weapons, while the skill for bows only gives you non concealable weapons that can't use burst fire or similar.

True but the advantage of a bow is that you can use it in far more situations. It's far too expensive to throw around anti tank rockets or the freakish rounds for the Assault Cannon on regular people while arrows are pretty cheap and accessible.

JaronK
2010-07-20, 03:30 AM
Then again, if you can use an Assault Cannon then you can use a Light Machine Gun too, so you use the LMG for random people. If you can use a Missile Launcher, you can also use a Grenade Launcher when you want to use cheaper weaponry. Both LMGs and Grenade Launchers are cheap enough and easy enough to get and their ammo isn't too bad (grenades aren't great but they'll take down multiple enemies). The issue with bows is that's all you get with the appropriate skill, which hurts doubly for Adepts who need to focus in one skill to really be good. I'd much rather have the versatility of a Heavy Weapons Troll than an Archer Troll.

JaronK

Poil
2010-07-20, 03:43 AM
I think you get crossbows too but that's pretty moot. Well, a bow is more silent and won't alert the whole block but that's mostly it. Though I suppose a bow is slightly safer if the target is standing right in front of you other than firing off a grenade but anyone sane would use a LMG in that situation. Yeah, proper modern stuff is mostly superior.

I bet you wouldn't even dress him up in green tights either? :smalltongue:

JaronK
2010-07-20, 04:02 AM
Bows certainly have their place... I was mostly just arguing with the idea that Troll Bow Adepts are broken or overpowered. A lot of people decide they're overpowered because the idea of a bow taking out a tank sounds silly, but when you remember they're competing with a Troll cyber character packing assault cannons and missile launchers, you realize they're just fine, if a little weak. After all, the bow skill doesn't give you burst fire or the ability to engage multiple targets quickly.

And yeah, Crossbows don't really seem to add anything.

JaronK

Bharg
2010-07-20, 04:02 AM
I think you get crossbows too but that's pretty moot. Well, a bow is more silent and won't alert the whole block but that's mostly it. Though I suppose a bow is slightly safer if the target is standing right in front of you other than firing off a grenade but anyone sane would use a LMG in that situation. Yeah, proper modern stuff is mostly superior.

I bet you wouldn't even dress him up in green tights either? :smalltongue:

Sounds totally appropriate for Shadowrun. :smallbiggrin:

Earthwalker
2010-07-20, 04:39 AM
I would say Shadowrun is not broken. I would advise the first few session playing the rules as written and not do any changes.

It might be an idea to have an agreement about number of initative passes but to be honest, alot of things need to be covered what you expect from you players and what kind of game they wish to play.

If its all combat and nothing else make a merc campaign and let them go wild with init passes. If its about shodowrunners breaking into places quietly and getting out, then how well you perform in combat isn't that much of an issue as you will want to be avoiding a fight at all costs.

I love the shadowrun system, I would say the latest version seems the least broken but I have played it less then 3rd edition.

JaronK
2010-07-20, 04:41 AM
I still stick to 3rd edition. I've always found that balance issues just weren't a problem. Sure, you were strong, but your enemies were dangerous too... it was about player planning and attention to detail, not character strength. Throwing 18 dice when shooting a sniper rifle would kill... but so would throwing 9, the real challenge was in getting your enemies to be where you had a shot lined up.

JaronK

Poil
2010-07-20, 04:51 AM
It might be an idea to have an agreement about number of initative passes

This. A thousand times this. Being the only one with just one initiative pass while the rest of the group has four is not fun at all. Especially not if you're at the far bottom of the power level too.

kjones
2010-07-20, 09:06 AM
Another thing that is broken in the "doesn't work as a rule" sense: Scatter. It's way too easy to miss with a rocket, missile, or grenade, to the point where a trained wielder has a good chance of missing a tank with a rocket launcher from 20m away. And when I say "missing" I mean "missing by 10m".

(Here's why:)

I'm AFB at the moment, but IIRC the scatter for a rocket in SR4A is 4d6 - 1 per net hit. A trained person might have Agility 5 and Heavy Weapons 5 - +2 for smartlink, +3 for some other random bonuses that I'm forgetting, die pool of 15. Average of 5 hits, let's say 4 net hits. Average value of 4d6 is 14, so that's an average scatter of 10m.

So a trained rocket launcher guy is literally incapable of hitting the broad side of a barn. Fortunately, there's an easy fix - use the un-errata'ed scatter values, which are somewhat more reasonable.

Earthwalker
2010-07-20, 09:19 AM
Another thing that is broken in the "doesn't work as a rule" sense: Scatter. It's way too easy to miss with a rocket, missile, or grenade, to the point where a trained wielder has a good chance of missing a tank with a rocket launcher from 20m away. And when I say "missing" I mean "missing by 10m".


I am not sure, but in SR3 technology was available to remove scatter, you didn't have to roll scatter with an air timed link and a smart link II

Of course I am going from memory, I would think similar tech is available in SR4.

Dragosai
2010-07-20, 09:23 AM
I ran 4th Ed SR very shortly after it came out, so I don't think there were any "splat" books yet. I know I did house rule "gel" rounds or whatever the name was for non-lethal ammo. My reason was the "non-lethal" ammo did more damage then real ammo; my problem was it was so good everyone should just use it always. I didn't nurf it into the ground because I did want people to still use it as a viable option. My reasoning for that is even though SR is a gritty world and most run it with a high lethal streak, I feel it makes since for some "runs" to use non-lethal means of taking people out simple because killing is not "required" to get the job done, and in fact might make the run all the worse do to fall out. SR does not get into "alignment" and thank the gods for it, but people still do play "good" or base line characters and not evil all the time. I know most of my PC's felt no need to blow the head off the security guard just doing his job that get's in the way on a run.
OK that go long fast, anyway yeah look at ammo and see what you think, other than that it is a "fairly" balanced game, as much as any other well written RPG. Having played and run all editions of SR I do feel 4th is the most balanced, although I have not seen all the splat books in play.

kjones
2010-07-20, 09:28 AM
I ran 4th Ed SR very shortly after it came out, so I don't think there were any "splat" books yet. I know I did house rule "gel" rounds or whatever the name was for non-lethal ammo. My reason was the "non-lethal" ammo did more damage then real ammo; my problem was it was so good everyone should just use it always. I didn't nurf it into the ground because I did want people to still use it as a viable option. My reasoning for that is even though SR is a gritty world and most run it with a high lethal streak, I feel it makes since for some "runs" to use non-lethal means of taking people out simple because killing is not "required" to get the job done, and in fact might make the run all the worse do to fall out. SR does not get into "alignment" and thank the gods for it, but people still do play "good" or base line characters and not evil all the time. I know most of my PC's felt no need to blow the head off the security guard just doing his job that get's in the way on a run.
OK that go long fast, anyway yeah look at ammo and see what you think, other than that it is a "fairly" balanced game, as much as any other well written RPG. Having played and run all editions of SR I do feel 4th is the most balanced, although I have not seen all the splat books in play.

The damage dealt by gel rounds was errata'ed, in what I think is a pretty reasonable change.

The damage dealt by stick-'n'-shock rounds has not been errata'ed, in what is a pretty egregious oversight, no matter how you slice it. I would recommend a houserule I implemented - SnS rounds can only be used in shotguns (justifiable by saying that they'd have to be bigger, more like shells than regular bullets). This also encourages people to use shotguns when there isn't much reason to otherwise, and encourages use of the all-around ass-kicking Nitama Optimum II. (AR with underbarrel shotgun.)

Lost Demiurge
2010-07-20, 10:22 AM
Shadowrun's a rare system... There's very few ways to break it that ruin the game. The ones that make your character REALLY powerful tend to make them really niche... The bow troll's only a factor when in combat, and bows are both distinctive and noticeable. The pornomancer's only an issue when people are willing to talk with you... All the etiquette plus charisma in the world won't help you when the bullets are flying and your foes aren't willing to hear you out. So someone specializes and is awesome at something, so what? As long as the rest of the team gets to do stuff, and their own time in the spotlight, it's all good.

Almost every character type will take serious pain from a sniper's bullet to the forehead, and the ones that aren't have other, bigger things to worry about. The dodgiest of phys-ads still has to worry about cybered corporate security with heavy machine guns, recoil compensation, and the training to lay down repeated long, wide bursts.

Let the PC's optimize. Just restrict their starting equipment to availability 12, and starting initiative passes to "3". Since you've noted that you're dealing with optimizers, make sure that every character has at least 2 passes. That's the only real issue... Otherwise combat will drag for the slower guys.

Let the PC's optimize, and watch how they play. Let the dice determine how they do... If they optimized well, they'll roll over opposition in their best areas. This is fine. Start them low against stuff that they can take. Relatively easy, low-paying runs, to build up rep and contacts.

Then, once they start getting into the big leagues, start throwing stuff at them that's tougher. Stuff they aren't optimized to handle. The occasional personnel or monster that's equal to one of them in an area, maybe better. Then ramp it up. Then make the opposition smarter. The corps have near-infinite resources, they can DO this.

At the end of it, if it goes well, you'll find your comfort zone and theirs.

Good luck, man! If it goes well, feel free to write up the campaign! I always love reading a good SR game, and I hope that yours is one.

kjones
2010-07-20, 12:27 PM
Shadowrun's a rare system... There's very few ways to break it that ruin the game. The ones that make your character REALLY powerful tend to make them really niche... The bow troll's only a factor when in combat, and bows are both distinctive and noticeable. The pornomancer's only an issue when people are willing to talk with you... All the etiquette plus charisma in the world won't help you when the bullets are flying and your foes aren't willing to hear you out. So someone specializes and is awesome at something, so what? As long as the rest of the team gets to do stuff, and their own time in the spotlight, it's all good.

Almost every character type will take serious pain from a sniper's bullet to the forehead, and the ones that aren't have other, bigger things to worry about. The dodgiest of phys-ads still has to worry about cybered corporate security with heavy machine guns, recoil compensation, and the training to lay down repeated long, wide bursts.

Let the PC's optimize. Just restrict their starting equipment to availability 12, and starting initiative passes to "3". Since you've noted that you're dealing with optimizers, make sure that every character has at least 2 passes. That's the only real issue... Otherwise combat will drag for the slower guys.

Let the PC's optimize, and watch how they play. Let the dice determine how they do... If they optimized well, they'll roll over opposition in their best areas. This is fine. Start them low against stuff that they can take. Relatively easy, low-paying runs, to build up rep and contacts.

Then, once they start getting into the big leagues, start throwing stuff at them that's tougher. Stuff they aren't optimized to handle. The occasional personnel or monster that's equal to one of them in an area, maybe better. Then ramp it up. Then make the opposition smarter. The corps have near-infinite resources, they can DO this.

At the end of it, if it goes well, you'll find your comfort zone and theirs.

Good luck, man! If it goes well, feel free to write up the campaign! I always love reading a good SR game, and I hope that yours is one.

While it's true that a lot of the broken things in Shadowrun (of the sort that are overpowered-broken, not "don't work"-broken - see my rocket scatter example for evidence of the latter) can be counteracted by beefing up the opposition, this is not always the case - the pornomancer, IIRC, uses an adept power that allows you to cow even hostile enemies. (It's in Street Magic, I think? I'm AFB.)

And even if you can make it such that everyone that crosses your party is a cyberpunk badass, do you really want to? That's not necessarily the sort of game that everyone wants to play.

Even though all characters are, to an extent, vulnerable to a bullet in the brain pan, that doesn't mean that relative character power is not a problem. It is - just not in the same way as That Other System.

Lost Demiurge
2010-07-20, 01:15 PM
While it's true that a lot of the broken things in Shadowrun (of the sort that are overpowered-broken, not "don't work"-broken - see my rocket scatter example for evidence of the latter) can be counteracted by beefing up the opposition, this is not always the case - the pornomancer, IIRC, uses an adept power that allows you to cow even hostile enemies. (It's in Street Magic, I think? I'm AFB.)
Eh, if the power bothers you, then you can ban it. Or try it in play, see if it's overpowered for the kind of game you want to run, then tell the PC to rewrite if it becomes an issue. You have to do that with any system, Shadowrun's no different.


And even if you can make it such that everyone that crosses your party is a cyberpunk badass, do you really want to? That's not necessarily the sort of game that everyone wants to play.
Didn't say that everyone who crosses the PC's path should be a cybered badass. Merely that the opposition should scale up as the PC's gain more experience and the stakes increase. Again, like almost any other system out there.


Even though all characters are, to an extent, vulnerable to a bullet in the brain pan, that doesn't mean that relative character power is not a problem. It is - just not in the same way as That Other System.
Relative character power isn't a huge problem as long as players are willing to share the spotlight and everyone has something they can do. Once again, just like any other system out there.

So all of your gripes apply to most other game systems out there, too. If you've got solutions beyond a good working relationship between GM and PC's, and a mutual willingness to avoid cheese, I'd love to hear'em.

Actually, Shadowrun's got an advantage over most other games that I've run. With a few exceptions, PC's have large amounts of freedom in how they choose to handle situations. Though you're likely going to run into combat sooner or later, running away is usually a valid tactical choice, and stacking the odds so it's an unfair fight is an even better one. And when the bullets aren't flying, smart planning and teamwork will allow you to bring almost any specialty into play to help the team achieve their goals...

kjones
2010-07-20, 01:38 PM
I agree with you, Demiurge - I was responding to the people in this thread saying that SR doesn't have balance problems, or that it does have them but that it doesn't matter because everyone dies when they get shot in the head.

Personally, the only houserules that I play with are: Everyone's limited to 2 IPs, SnS rounds can only be used in shotguns, and hacking programs provide a cap on stat-based die pools, rather than providing the dice themselves.

Lost Demiurge
2010-07-20, 02:07 PM
I agree with you, Demiurge - I was responding to the people in this thread saying that SR doesn't have balance problems, or that it does have them but that it doesn't matter because everyone dies when they get shot in the head.

Personally, the only houserules that I play with are: Everyone's limited to 2 IPs, SnS rounds can only be used in shotguns, and hacking programs provide a cap on stat-based die pools, rather than providing the dice themselves.

Ah, okay. Sorry, hope I didn't jump down your throat, there.

Hmm... I LIKE that program cap idea. Mind if I borrow it?

quiet1mi
2010-07-20, 02:27 PM
If you do not keep an eye on things, hacking in general. What it lacks in direct lethality it makes up with unlimited utility.

A technomancer can also get silly if he is a dedicated hacker.

5 in all mental stats, 2 in all physical stats.

He gets, 4 dice from skills, 5 dice from complex forms, 5 dice from threading, 5 Dice from being aided from his rating 5 sprite, and finally 2 dice for hotsimming and being in VR. If he also uses his rating 1 registerd thread sprite to hold onto that 5 die thread.

21 dice can result in a auto buy of 5 successes at a rate of 4:1. this means the technomancer could hack through military grade software with-out breaking a sweat.

TheCountAlucard
2010-07-20, 03:05 PM
Two words: Possession mages.

kjones
2010-07-20, 03:06 PM
Quiet: And that's before he brings his registered sprites to bear...

Demiurge: No sweat, that little rules tweak is a suggested option from somewhere in SR4, 20th Anniversary edition. I like it because otherwise, mechanically, there's no reason for a hacker to put points into Logic. (Of course, this is after we realized that when using Hacking, you don't roll Logic + Hacking + Program ... )

EDIT: Oh yeah, possession mages are preposterously broken. Don't even go there.

Lost Demiurge
2010-07-20, 03:13 PM
Two words: Possession mages.

Yeah, possessing spirits are pretty powerful. Especially guardians...
*Shudder*

On the upside, they make great antagonists. And give the mage a chance to shine, when the rigger's drones need an exorcism NOW.