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Flame of Anor
2010-07-19, 05:52 PM
Okay, so I have a dwarf cleric at about eighth level. He's pretty good on the defensive--26 AC--and his spells aren't bad, but he's pretty boring on attack. +9 to hit with his +1 heavy mace, and only 1d8+4 damage. How can I make him better able to smack down the foes with an iron fist?

Keld Denar
2010-07-19, 05:57 PM
An edition tag is pretty useful! :P [3.5] or some such.

In the mean time, I'm just gonna assume 3.5.

The first 2 questions I have to ask are:
1) How much can you change. Are the 8 levels and all feats set in stone?
2) What books do you have access to? This changes advice a bit, and is important.

AslanCross
2010-07-19, 06:02 PM
I'm presuming 3.5?

You should have access to Divine Power already at 8th level. At 9th level you can already get Righteous Might.


If you have Spell Compendium, you're all set:
Ice Axe (Level 3): Deals 2d12 + 1/2 caster levels in cold damage as a touch attack, lasts one round/level.
Flame of Faith (3) is a bit less impressive, but it turns your weapon into a Flaming Burst version of itself.

The Divine feats also work really well---you could take Divine Justice, which allows you to designate a foe to take vengeance against. If that enemy hits you within a minute, you can hit back for as much damage as he dealt you (or your own attack, whichever is greater). All at the cost of 1 turn attempt.

Assuming you can clear this with your DM, you can take levels in the Ordained Champion PrC (Complete Champion) which is really good. You can channel your spells into your weapon.

Dr.Epic
2010-07-19, 06:03 PM
Okay, so I have a dwarf cleric at about eighth level. He's pretty good on the defensive--26 AC--and his spells aren't bad, but he's pretty boring on attack. +9 to hit with his +1 heavy mace, and only 1d8+4 damage. How can I make him better able to smack down the foes with an iron fist?

Um, spells: bull's strength, enlarge person, others that slip my mind.

aivanther
2010-07-19, 06:20 PM
Persistant Divine Power (using Divine Metamagic). Toss in a couple of Enlarge persons, circle against evil, etc.

There you are, you out melee your meleers.

Flame of Anor
2010-07-19, 06:38 PM
An edition tag is pretty useful! :P [3.5] or some such.

In the mean time, I'm just gonna assume 3.5.

The first 2 questions I have to ask are:
1) How much can you change. Are the 8 levels and all feats set in stone?
2) What books do you have access to? This changes advice a bit, and is important.

:smallredface: Edition tag duly added.

As for what I can change, I think I would be presuming too much if I tried to swap out levels, but my DM does occasionally let us swap out feats if they aren't working out like we thought they would.


You should have access to Divine Power already at 8th level. At 9th level you can already get Righteous Might.

If you have Spell Compendium, you're all set:
Ice Axe (Level 3): Deals 2d12 + 1/2 caster levels in cold damage as a touch attack, lasts one round/level.
Flame of Faith (3) is a bit less impressive, but it turns your weapon into a Flaming Burst version of itself.

The Divine feats also work really well---you could take Divine Justice, which allows you to designate a foe to take vengeance against. If that enemy hits you within a minute, you can hit back for as much damage as he dealt you (or your own attack, whichever is greater). All at the cost of 1 turn attempt.

Assuming you can clear this with your DM, you can take levels in the Ordained Champion PrC (Complete Champion) which is really good. You can channel your spells into your weapon.

I have been using Divine Power, and it's the best thing I have so far. I'm afraid I don't have Spell Compendium, but I may have to get it, as I'm already using some spells from it, such as Close Wounds (awesome spell). I'll look into those Divine feats and prestige class, thanks.


Um, spells: bull's strength, enlarge person, others that slip my mind.

Yes, I've used those, and they're certainly helpful, but there are times when one goes without regaining spells for several encounters in a row, and those pretty much only last for one.


Persistant Divine Power (using Divine Metamagic). Toss in a couple of Enlarge persons, circle against evil, etc.

There you are, you out melee your meleers.

Tell me about this Divine Metamagic--it sounds super awesome.

Critical
2010-07-19, 06:44 PM
Yes, I've used those, and they're certainly helpful, but there are times when one goes without regaining spells for several encounters in a row, and those pretty much only last for one.

Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell to the rescue!

Gnaeus
2010-07-19, 06:48 PM
Greater Magic weapon is another +1 to hit and damage and lasts for hours.

Talk to your party wizard, and agree to cast some useful buff on him if he will cast greater mighty wallop (RoD) on your mace, or buy it as an oil or get some scrolls of it for the skillmonkey to UMD.

Divine metamagic is in complete divine. It lets you spend turn attempts to apply metamagic feats to spells with no spell level adjustment. It is usually used with Persist spell to make buffs last all day. It might be a problem for you because:
1. It requires 3 feats (Persist spell, Extend Spell, Divine Metamagic Persist) so if you don't get to retrain it will take a while to get.
2. Many DMs banhammer it quickly
3. It requires a lot of turn attempts, so high charisma, nightsticks (Libris Mortis) and/or extra turning feats.

If your dm frowns on divine metamagic or it isn't available in your build, get Law devotion for regular bonuses to your AC or to hit, and power it with turn attempts.

Caphi
2010-07-19, 06:50 PM
Tell me about this Divine Metamagic--it sounds super awesome.

You spend three feats, cast any spell with a duration, and sink about seven Turn Undeads into it, and it sticks for 24 hours.

Boci
2010-07-19, 06:50 PM
Tell me about this Divine Metamagic--it sounds super awesome.

If you have a metamagic feat, you can take the feat DMM (the metamagic feat) and then sub turn undead attempts for the spells level adjustment on a 1-for-1 basis.

Edit: Dammit, swordsage'd. But:


You spend three feats, cast any spell with a duration,

And a fixed range.

aivanther
2010-07-19, 07:37 PM
You spend three feats, cast any spell with a duration, and sink about seven Turn Undeads into it, and it sticks for 24 hours.

Nah, what you do is:
1) Domain planning- free extend spell (prereq)
2) Feat: Persistent spell (+6 spell cost to metamagic, complete arcane)
3) Feat: Divine Metamagic- Persistent spell (complete divine)

Now you can spend 6 turns/rebukes to metamagic a spell without having to cast it so high. Shoot off your Divine power and you're a fighter with full casting.

For bonus points: 2nd Domain of Undeath for extra turning and you can pick up the extra turning feats for more awesome. Reliquary Holy Symbol which will nab you 3 more extra turnings (Magic Item Compendium).

If you want to cheese so hard your DM will shove your copy of Libris Mortis down your throat, open up Libris Mortis to page 78 and behold the power of nightsticks. If you're DM has a clue, he will ban them though.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-19, 07:39 PM
To elaborate further:

In Complete Divine, you can find a feat called Divine Metamagic. It allows you to apply one specific metamagic feat you know to a spell you cast, but instead of adding +levels to the spell, you spend turn undead attempts equal to the +level that it would add (plus 1).

So after taking Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), you can now spend 7 turn attempts upon casting one spell of your choice that has a fixed range (so no Short, Medium, or Long range, but Personal are okay), to make that spell Persisted without changing its spell slot.

EDIT: Cleric of Olidamarra'd.

eldon18
2010-07-19, 10:04 PM
cleric 5,radiant sun of Pelor 1,Sacred Exorsist 1,Divine Disciple 1 Human

Feats:DMM,extend spell,persistant spell,Power Attack,extra Turning (2)

Cloak of charisma +4
Knightstick
RELIQUARY HOLY SYMBOL!!!
2 Rod of Extend,lesser

Base stats
STR 12
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 10
CHA 16+4=20 (cloak of CHA +4)
WIS 16+2=18 (your 8th level)your not using save or suck suppose to be fighting


for a total of 49 turning attempts
Persist 7 1-3rd level spells using the rod of Extend
next day use the higher level spell(above 3rd level)

no animals were hurt in the making of this build but one DM wet himself and quit

Divine power
Righteous might are excelent choices to choose

DM might not let you use greater turning attempts for DMM

*smiles at build*:smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2010-07-19, 10:15 PM
cleric 5,radiant sun of Pelor 1,Sacred Exorsist 1,Divine Disciple 1 Human

Feats:DMM,extend spell,persistant spell,Power Attack,extra Turning (2)

Cloak of charisma +4
Knightstick
RELIQUARY HOLY SYMBOL!!!
2 Rod of Extend,lesser

Base stats
STR 12
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 10
CHA 16+4=20 (cloak of CHA +4)
WIS 16+2=18 (your 8th level)your not using save or suck suppose to be fighting


for a total of 49 turning attempts
Persist 7 1-3rd level spells using the rod of Extend
next day use the higher level spell(above 3rd level)

no animals were hurt in the making of this build but one DM wet himself and quit

Divine power
Righteous might are excelent choices to choose

DM might not let you use greater turning attempts for DMM

*smiles at build*:smallbiggrin:

Err, he just said he's playing as an 8th level dwarf cleric and he's been using it already. I don't think he can change his race at this point.

I'd also use DMM Persist with caution. Run it by your DM BEFORE using it so that you're not going to have to retain again.

aivanther
2010-07-19, 10:25 PM
I'd also use DMM Persist with caution. Run it by your DM BEFORE using it so that you're not going to have to retain again.

And also it'll probably save you from nasty paper cuts when he shoves the Complete Divine where the sun doesn't shine. :smallbiggrin:

T.G. Oskar
2010-07-19, 10:34 PM
Greater Magic weapon is another +1 to hit and damage and lasts for hours.

By the level he has, probably a +2 bonus that lasts for pretty much the entire dungeon I'd say. Better than his +1 mace (since it applies to every other weapon he uses the spell on), and after one level it'll be a +3 bonus so it's even better.

Minor addition and clarification, but then again that's why GMW is so awesome. Well...both GMWs (Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mighty Wallop)...

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 12:06 AM
*smiles at build*:smallbiggrin:

Also, that build is invalid anyway. You can't qualify for RSoP until after Cleric6 due to the Will save prereqs, and can you can't qualify for Sacred Exorcist until after you can cast 4th+ level spells, which a 6th level cleric can't cast. I highly suggest you look up prereqs before giving advise so you don't cause confusion. Our goal is to help people.

Also, it looks like you are trying to get multiple pools of Turn Undead from multiple PrCs. Those PrCs explicitly stack together, they aren't added seperate. Divine Metamagic explicitly only works with TURN UNDEAD, so you can't swap it out for an Alt Class Feature and re-pick up turn undead from SacEx or others.

balistafreak
2010-07-20, 12:39 AM
Reliquary Holy Symbol which will nab you 3 more extra turnings (Magic Item Compendium).

Nitpick: 1 of those extra turnings only comes from having the Improved Turning feat (not Extra Turning, which is what I thought when I first read it).

It's still more efficient than a Nightstick, though, so you get one regardless.

Flame of Anor
2010-07-20, 01:14 AM
These are all cool exploits creative combinations, especially the Divine Metamagic Persistent Divine Power, but I'm not certain I want to be spending three feats (which I can't use until I get the third, and of which I'll only be able to retrain maybe one or two) and all of my per-day turning on this. Yes, I know that 1) a Nightstick or 2) Extra Turning would give me more, but 1) I don't think those are in our campaign, and I don't have 7,500 gp, and 2) that's ANOTHER feat--I'd be using more than HALF of my character's feats on this one thing. I'll keep it in mind, but I'm looking more for things that I can get in one or two feats or spells or such. That Ice Axe thing, for example, that's just the kind of thing. Not that I mind hearing about these convoluted builds, but that's not the main thing I'm going for. Thanks!

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-20, 02:20 AM
If you want to be more helpful without significant feat expenditure, prepare group buffs. Recitation comes to mind. Giving everyone good bonuses is usually better than giving yourself great bonuses.

Eldariel
2010-07-20, 04:13 AM
Wield a Quarterstaff or such. Cast Spikes [CDiv/SpC]. Hours/level, +2 bonus and +1/level to damage. In other words, you'll have a +2 weapon and +8 to damage. Greater Magic Weapon later once you get Beads of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) and can pump high caster level spells off, getting +4/+5 weapon with ease.

Then just start combat with Divine Power when appropriate, get Righteous Might with 5th level spells and profit.

eldon18
2010-07-20, 10:25 AM
I didnt look at the the will save prereq the one i built was 9 level so it was easily crafted

the sacred exorsist specificlly says the turns stack same with the radiant sun of pelor (they consider it greater since you have to pick the sun domain)so explain the confusion i thought they are added ontop of each other

my DM allows complete rebuilds if your DM doesnt then this build is a little less effective in my eyes

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 10:43 AM
A Greater Turn is not the same as a Turn Undead attempt. It is a seperate quantity that is added on to a regular turn for an augemented effect. You can not use Greater Turns to power [Divine] feats. Its like this:

If your pool of turn undead attempts remaining was thus:

Turn Undead Attempts: 7
Greater Turns: 3

after using a regular turning, you'd have this:

Turn Undead Attempts: 6
Greater Turns: 3

then, later, after using a greater turning, you'd see this:

Turn Undead Attempts: 5
Greater Turns: 2

Go read the Sun domain, what the Greater Turning ability is based on. It doesn't actually give you more turns per day, it mearly augements one of your existing turns to do more than it is normally capable of doing.

eldon18
2010-07-20, 11:00 AM
okay my DM thought they were more turn attempts so i will have to fix that

instead of taking the sun domain and being a RSoP use use the undeath domain gives you a free extra turning feat

Flame of Anor
2010-07-20, 02:28 PM
Wield a Quarterstaff or such. Cast Spikes [CDiv/SpC]. Hours/level, +2 bonus and +1/level to damage. In other words, you'll have a +2 weapon and +8 to damage. Greater Magic Weapon later once you get Beads of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) and can pump high caster level spells off, getting +4/+5 weapon with ease.

Then just start combat with Divine Power when appropriate, get Righteous Might with 5th level spells and profit.

This looks great. Could you post stat block for Spikes?

Dr.Epic
2010-07-20, 02:33 PM
Yes, I've used those, and they're certainly helpful, but there are times when one goes without regaining spells for several encounters in a row, and those pretty much only last for one.

What about War Priest? Could look into the prestige class. Also, maybe multiclass to fighter?

Flame of Anor
2010-07-20, 02:35 PM
What about War Priest? Could look into the prestige class. Also, maybe multiclass to fighter?

I was thinking of multiclass. Where is War Priest from?

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 02:37 PM
War Priest is in Complete Warrior. Its kinda bad though. It gives up half of your spell progression in return for full BAB and a couple of per day SLAs. You are better off keeping your full casting and using your spells to cover what you get from the crappy SLAs.

Boci
2010-07-20, 02:40 PM
War Priest is in Complete Warrior.

Isn't it Complete Champion? Or maybe Divine. I'm pretty sure its not in Warrior.

Caphi
2010-07-20, 02:40 PM
War Priest is in Complete Warrior. Its kinda bad though. It gives up half of your spell progression in return for full BAB and a couple of per day SLAs. You are better off keeping your full casting and using your spells to cover what you get from the crappy SLAs.

Complete Divine actually. It's not that bad, it's just strictly worse than actually having cleric casting (what else is new, hurr). The capstone is absolutely hilarious for NPCs in war scenes, though.

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 02:45 PM
Its much better for someone who doesn't have as much to lose. If you had a Paladin War Priest, or a Pious Templar War Priest, then getting access to Heal and Mass Heal as SLAs is WAY more than you'd ever get with your normal casting. From a Cleric-centric PoV, its total crap.

Caphi
2010-07-20, 02:48 PM
Its much better for someone who doesn't have as much to lose. If you had a Paladin War Priest, or a Pious Templar War Priest, then getting access to Heal and Mass Heal as SLAs is WAY more than you'd ever get with your normal casting. From a Cleric-centric PoV, its total crap.

That's why it's not that bad. And I can't help but think the designer knew that. The casting requirement is a far cry from the standard "divine caster level/able to cast Xth level divine spells".

You know what'd be a funny Warpriest base? Divine bard.

Flame of Anor
2010-07-20, 02:48 PM
Complete Divine actually. It's not that bad, it's just strictly worse than actually having cleric casting (what else is new, hurr). The capstone is absolutely hilarious for NPCs in war scenes, though.

What's the capstone? And please don't take away my nerd points, but what does SLA stand for? Stinky Level Adjustment? Spell Level Add? Superman and Lois Aremorethanjustfriends?

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 02:51 PM
Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm).

Nearly every ability in the game is Extraordinary (Ex), Supernatural (Su), or Spell-Like (SLA). If its not one of those, its a natural ability, such as a natural weapon.

Flame of Anor
2010-07-20, 02:52 PM
Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm).

Nearly every ability in the game is Extraordinary (Ex), Supernatural (Su), or Spell-Like (SLA). If its not one of those, its a natural ability, such as a natural weapon.

Oh. Well now I feel just stupid. :smallredface: :smalltongue:

(I'm used to seeing that abbreviated "Sp")

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 03:13 PM
What's the capstone?

I too would like to know more about this war-priest capstone.

Shyftir
2010-07-20, 03:48 PM
It's called Implacable Foe, basically he gets to make his allies not die until they hit -20 hp by concentrating and using Turn attempts.

I took a paladin that direction once, but I picked up a level of Favored soul first so that the extra spell-casting levels were for a better kind of spell casting.

You could also turn your cleric chaotic evil and learn all the really crazy necromancy spell that clerics can learn, like Blood to Water, and Bodak's Glare. But you might wanna wait til you can get those spells and then use them to slaughter your poor unsuspecting party when they discover you evil nature.

Wait.... u said helpful.... right...

Well invest your gold into wands of Cure spells so that you can use those spells which increase your melee capabilities more often. You can even put them in a wand chamber in your weapon so you can gently tap your allies with the weapon and use the wands on them. (This is also great when fighting the undead...)

Eldariel
2010-07-20, 03:59 PM
@FlameofAnor: Check your PM box.