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View Full Version : [4E] Throwing yourself through the air...Melee or Ranged?



Fenrazer
2010-07-19, 08:58 PM
In D&D 4E, My DM has a homebrewed attack for a silverback gorilla where he leaps from a tree to tackle us, and I want to use Caiphons Leap (Warlock Utility). The trigger says this power only responds to melee attacks. DM says the Gorilla is "flinging himself" and therefore it is the same as flinging a knife or an arrow. Is this homebrewed attack treated as a Melee attack, or a Ranged attack?

NecroRebel
2010-07-19, 09:09 PM
Well... The gorilla is moving up to its target and then hitting it, right? That's what a melee attack is. A ranged attack involves hitting your target with something you're not holding. Besides that, it's a friggin' tackle. How is that not a melee attack?

Edit: It's technically DM fiat either way, so your DM could rule it as a ranged attack as there are no rules governing what attack type any given form of attack is, but ruling it as a ranged attack doesn't make any sense at all.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-19, 09:14 PM
I think it should be a melee attack that allows the gorilla to shift N spaces before the attack. There are official powers that are already like that. The point is, if the gorilla has to be next to you by the time he attacks you it should really be a melee attack. Also, you can't actually throw yourself.

BobTheDog
2010-07-19, 09:25 PM
It's technically DM fiat either way

Since it's a homebrew power, it all depends on what the DM wrote in the power entry (or what icon he used :smallbiggrin:)...

That said, I see two ways this power could work (mechanically, not fluffwisely):

a) Ranged attack (range equal to monster's move) that follows up with move/shift to target's adjacent square.
b) Ranged attack (range 1) preceded by move/shift.

Option a) makes it a very skirmishery power, much like a rogue that flings a dagger at you and darts in to pull it out of your NADs (vs. Reflex, of course) and flank you. Except the monkey does it with his fists. Well, I said I was gonna look at it mechanically. If your DM goes with this, ready an action to drop prone if the monster attacks you, and get a +2 to defenses vs. the attack.

Option b) makes it a "melee" power that provokes. Enjoy the free attack, but it wouldn't trigger melee interrupts (since it's ranged). If your DM goes with this, hide behind a comrade and DEMAND your cover bonus (which you wouldn't get if it was melee).

Okay, all rules yanking aside, this power really feels like it should be melee (option b), but with the right attack type). The monster shifts/moves/jumps and attacks.

Or...... It could be a "Close burst target one creature" attack! :smallamused:

Vangor
2010-07-19, 09:27 PM
DM says the Gorilla is "flinging himself" and therefore it is the same as flinging a knife or an arrow. Is this homebrewed attack treated as a Melee attack, or a Ranged attack?

If the gorilla is merely hurling his bulk towards a person using his dexterity for accuracy, I would say this could be a ranged attack. Since the gorilla is doing a leap, I would say no, he probably intends to do something besides merely collide with you. At the least, the gorilla, if this is ruled a ranged attack, should have a possibility of taking damage from the collision as well as being rather vulnerable.

Rasman
2010-07-19, 09:36 PM
Well... The gorilla is moving up to its target and then hitting it, right? That's what a melee attack is. A ranged attack involves hitting your target with something you're not holding. Besides that, it's a friggin' tackle. How is that not a melee attack?

Edit: It's technically DM fiat either way, so your DM could rule it as a ranged attack as there are no rules governing what attack type any given form of attack is, but ruling it as a ranged attack doesn't make any sense at all.

I would have to agree that it would be the equivalent of a charge, your DM is just bending the rules of the world to his will so you can't save yourself is what it sounds like. Now...if another Gorilla had thrown the Gorilla at you, THAT would be acceptable, but it's pretty much the same as a pounce or charge the way it is stated.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-19, 09:42 PM
Ask your DM how the gorilla is picking himself up and throwing himself at you. Then ask if he's sure the gorilla isn't just jumping at you and making an attack. Then show the DM any power (preferably another monster's power) that involves jumping and making an attack.

FullofQuestions
2010-07-19, 10:26 PM
Maybe your DM was thinking anything flying threw the air would be a ranged attack, but with all the explanations, it sounds like it would make sense to be a melee attack. Geez, what was your DM thinking anyway. :smallsmile: (Though I do like the point about looking up another monster that might have a similar attack and seeing if it's melee or ranged.)

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-19, 10:30 PM
Imo, it's never worth it to fight over minutiae like that with your DM. Is being able to use Caiphon's Leap in that encounter really going to make or break your gameplan?

mobdrazhar
2010-07-19, 10:31 PM
The only way I could see it being justified as a ranged attack would be if he was being thrown by another gorrilla or if he thought he was Wylie Coyote and strapped himself to a rocket :smallbiggrin:

i agree that finding a monster with a similar attack (ie deathjump spiders) might be a good thing to do.

Fenrazer
2010-07-19, 10:39 PM
Maybe your DM was thinking anything flying threw the air would be a ranged attack, but with all the explanations, it sounds like it would make sense to be a melee attack. Geez, what was your DM thinking anyway. :smallsmile: (Though I do like the point about looking up another monster that might have a similar attack and seeing if it's melee or ranged.)

Introducing my DM folks :smallwink:

I never really consider it ranged if the attack requires physical contact between the attacker and the target for it to work.

Still: as the Dead Alewives said, "I control worlds! Universes even. Every potion..." and so on. I can't say that during my eight years GMing 3.5 and SRun, that I didn't tweak a rule or fifty, so thats cool if you do, but we should have the Homebrew power completely laid out in the color coded format like the books do to avoid further confusion. I did the same with my Mourning Star Homebrews so I knew exactly what they were capable of (moreso to keep players from monkey wrenching my campaigns with my own design). I hate keeping our party waiting on me, but I also would hate to forgo using an available power that can keep my guys in HP.

Related question playground: Fullofquestion,s or FOQ(faster to type buddy:smallwink:) presented the question earilier: "What if they launched themselves like in a catapault?"

What do you think?

EDIT:


Imo, it's never worth it to fight over minutiae like that with your DM. Is being able to use Caiphon's Leap in that encounter really going to make or break your gameplan?

No, I don't think it would make or break them in that exact instance, but had I been in danger of dying from such an attack, I'd like to know what I can and cannot use in order to prevent it.

Besides, if there isn't something done about this, then whats to stop there from being a flying creature from doing a flyby attack, but calling it ranged? That means that a flying creature could hurl itself at me and do a sword attack and keep going without ever receiving an Opportunity Attack and all the DM might have to say is "Well he stopped flapping his wings so he himself is the projectile".

Mando Knight
2010-07-19, 10:56 PM
In this case, it's a charge. A flying tackle-type charge, but a charge. Which, of course, is a melee attack.

A "fling guys with catapult" attack would be two attacks: one ranged for the catapult flinging, and one other attack from the guys flung, if they want to strike with a weapon or something. The latter would just be a readied action to attack with a power when they reach their destination (or while flying through the air).

NecroRebel
2010-07-19, 11:06 PM
(Though I do like the point about looking up another monster that might have a similar attack and seeing if it's melee or ranged.)

Well, MM1 pg172 has the Kua-Toa Monitor, with its power Leap Kick. That power makes the creature shift 2 and then attack, and from the name, it's pretty clear that it involves the Kua-Toa leaping at the enemy, and then kicking them. It's a melee attack. From the same book, the Red Slaad on page 238 has the Leaping Pounce power, which lets the Slaad shift 4 and make 2 attacks. It, too, probably involves the creature jumping at and attacking, and it, too, is a melee attack. So attacks that involve throwing oneself at an enemy and attacking are melee attacks :smallwink:


Related question playground: Fullofquestion,s or FOQ(faster to type buddy:smallwink:) presented the question earilier: "What if they launched themselves like in a catapault?"

What do you think?

Well, how I would rule it is the catapult (or its crew) would probably make a ranged attack, and if it hit the target would take damage, and whether or not it hit the erstwhile ammunition would take damage and be knocked prone, and maybe dazed, or even stunned. That one's something of a different question because it isn't so much the creature being launched that's making the attack, so I could see it being treated as a ranged (or maybe area) attack in that case.

That one's also somewhat different because, hey, what if the "ammunition" is a Galeb Duhr or something similar? Those are basically animated rocks, so it'd be believable for one to get loaded into a big trebuchet, launched into a castle as siege weapon ammuniation, and then unfolding itself to fight as a shock trooper. I wouldn't rule the impact damage from when the creature first landed as coming from it, though; that damage is due to the catapult, so the catapult is the thing doing the attack, and it is shooting something.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-20, 08:06 AM
That one's also somewhat different because, hey, what if the "ammunition" is a Galeb Duhr or something similar? Those are basically animated rocks, so it'd be believable for one to get loaded into a big trebuchet, launched into a castle as siege weapon ammuniation, and then unfolding itself to fight as a shock trooper.

I have to remember to use this idea someday. :smallwink::smallamused:

hamishspence
2010-07-20, 08:53 AM
Order of the Stick has done something along those lines:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html