[3.5] Help me help a party out: Bard6 and Cleric4 Build Help Wanted

[balistafreak]

I have two characters, sixth and fourth level (Leadership ho!) that I'm going to be applying into a game with.

I'd like for them to be a Bard and Cleric, respectively. (Yes, I'm aware that it would be better for me to have the Cleric as the higher leveled one, but concept has to come in somewhere.)

I rolled excellent stat arrays for each, so there's a lot of opportunity for spreading out.

True to my nature, I want to have the characters built towards supporting the party: buffs and stuff. After that's all done, though, I also want them to be combat capable.

However, this is where my knowledge of Bards and Clerics stop. Right now, I am tentatively picturing a Snowflake Wardance/Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, and a "mere" classic Zen Archery War Domain Cleric.

My current picture of it in six bard levels eats up three of my five feats: Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Two Weapon Fighting. My second two feats are Leadership and Jack of all Trades.

I'll be wielding a pair of sickles, the only light slashing weapons I have available to me.

Are there any other "classic" or "essential" pieces to the puzzle I'm missing? Weapon Finesse? Shadow Blade?

The Cleric is easier. With three feats to its name, there's really no room for good ol' DMM at this level. I'm thinking Zen Archery for SAD and the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot tree. Domains (mainly for granted powers) are Celerity, to not drag the party down in full-plate, and War, for Longbow Proficiency. Sure, it's a lot of feats based around shooting a bow, but I've found that groups EVERYWHERE seem to lack a good archer. No, no, everyone wants to either throw fireballs or smash face.

And if all else fails, it's still a bloody Cleric. :smallamused:

[gallagher]

I have two characters, sixth and fourth level (Leadership ho!) that I'm going to be applying into a game with.

I'd like for them to be a Bard and Cleric, respectively. (Yes, I'm aware that it would be better for me to have the Cleric as the higher leveled one, but concept has to come in somewhere.)

I rolled excellent stat arrays for each, so there's a lot of opportunity for spreading out.

True to my nature, I want to have the characters built towards supporting the party: buffs and stuff. After that's all done, though, I also want them to be combat capable.

However, this is where my knowledge of Bards and Clerics stop. Right now, I am tentatively picturing a Snowflake Wardance/Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, and a "mere" classic Zen Archery War Domain Cleric.

My current picture of it in six bard levels eats up three of my five feats: Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Two Weapon Fighting. My second two feats are Leadership and Jack of all Trades.

I'll be wielding a pair of sickles, the only light slashing weapons I have available to me.

Are there any other "classic" or "essential" pieces to the puzzle I'm missing? Weapon Finesse? Shadow Blade?

The Cleric is easier. With three feats to its name, there's really no room for good ol' DMM at this level. I'm thinking Zen Archery for SAD and the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot tree. Domains (mainly for granted powers) are Celerity, to not drag the party down in full-plate, and War, for Longbow Proficiency. Sure, it's a lot of feats based around shooting a bow, but I've found that groups EVERYWHERE seem to lack a good archer. No, no, everyone wants to either throw fireballs or smash face.

And if all else fails, it's still a bloody Cleric. :smallamused:

could you sink a feat into exotic weapon proficiency for a whip? the cleric can deliver touch spells then

[T.G. Oskar]

I have two characters, sixth and fourth level (Leadership ho!) that I'm going to be applying into a game with.

I rolled excellent stat arrays for each, so there's a lot of opportunity for spreading out.

Just having Leadership is enough, but having great stats aids a lot. I see (from the rest of the post) you have a good grasp on what to do, but it would help to know which races you plan for each.


True to my nature, I want to have the characters built towards supporting the party: buffs and stuff. After that's all done, though, I also want them to be combat capable.

However, this is where my knowledge of Bards and Clerics stop. Right now, I am tentatively picturing a Snowflake Wardance/Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, and a "mere" classic Zen Archery War Domain Cleric.

My current picture of it in six bard levels eats up three of my five feats: Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Two Weapon Fighting. My second two feats are Leadership and Jack of all Trades.

I'll be wielding a pair of sickles, the only light slashing weapons I have available to me.

Are there any other "classic" or "essential" pieces to the puzzle I'm missing? Weapon Finesse? Shadow Blade?

Hmm...seems you're allowed flaws, which makes this a bit easier.

If you're Human, Able Learner could help a lot (given that you'd have a decent amount of skill ranks, and your cohort would cover for the rest). Bardic Knack instead of Bardic Knowledge can be pretty useful, even more if your Cleric isn't the PHB one and is a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) instead. But I'll expand on the Cloistered Cleric later; Bard is what I'll deal with now.

Since Bardic Knack (especially if you follow the Cloistered Cleric path for your cohort) pretty much beats Jack of All Trades out of the water, you can have a free feat you can place on anything else. TWF isn't a good idea on the Bard (at least, I'd decline on having him fight, although you seem to be a bit dead set on helping on the frontline). Good feat recommendations would be Dragontouched + Draconic Aura (if your DM allows Vigor as an aura, even better), and Extra Music (the more bardic music daily uses you have, the better). If you have the Eberron campaign setting and the Spell Compendium, the combo of Inspirational Boost and Song of the Heart are almost a prerequisite (Inspire Courage +3, and +3d6 damage from DFI).

As for spells, since your Cleric will have access to spontaneous conversion to Cure X Wounds spells (and since wands of CLW are far better), you'll want to stay away from having those spells on your list. Grease will be a decent 1st level spell (even if a fellow arcanist has it on their list), Alter Self, Glitterdust and Mirror Image are superb 2nd level spells, and Haste is essential once you get 3rd level spells (unless a Sorcerer takes that job, but you're going to be the buffer...) Important thing: if you find a spell on both the Bard and the Cleric spell list, and the spell is one that would do better if prepared, leave it to the Cleric (that means pretty much all healing spells, including and not limited to all CW spells, Remove Fear, and so on).

Another question: planning on getting to Sublime Chord, or planning on keeping it as a Bard? You might want to see Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Mage) since it boosts your spellcasting but doesn't sacrifice your bardic music, and it boosts sonic spells by a lot (which allows you to be a good attacker).

Oh, and...no need for Weapon Finesse or Shadow Blade. If you're going for Snowflake Wardance, that covers both feats.


The Cleric is easier. With three feats to its name, there's really no room for good ol' DMM at this level. I'm thinking Zen Archery for SAD and the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot tree. Domains (mainly for granted powers) are Celerity, to not drag the party down in full-plate, and War, for Longbow Proficiency. Sure, it's a lot of feats based around shooting a bow, but I've found that groups EVERYWHERE seem to lack a good archer. No, no, everyone wants to either throw fireballs or smash face.

And if all else fails, it's still a bloody Cleric. :smallamused:

First and foremost: Cloistered Cleric. I'm sure you noticed, but it has a bigger list of goodies. More skill points (the more the merrier), the Knowledge domain (which you can replace with Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, for even better options although you'll miss the ability to treat all Knowledge skills as class skills), Lore (so you can replace Bardic Knowledge with Bardic Knack), and more spells. Loss of heavy armor proficiency will hurt a bit, but not THAT much compared with what you gain (both for the Cleric and for your Bard).

I would recommend Ordained Champion, but unfortunately your choice of deity for the War domain is a bit...odd. If you can have your DM allow you to take Ordained Champion levels, your Cleric is set for life: spontaneous War domain spells (and you can recover your healing capacity with Spontaneous Healing from Complete Divine), plus a plethora of goodies. It might be a far-fetched stretch, but if you can, more power to you.

As for spells, Divine Power + Righteous Might is your usual path, but don't forget stuff like Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment (to have enchanted weapons and armor), Resist Energy, Shield of Faith, and other scaling spells. Make sure you get something like Bow of the Wintermoon, or a composite longbow that can scale up with your Strength, so that you can take full advantage of Divine Power's increase in Strength on terms of damage.

[balistafreak]

The race for the (feat-starved) Bard is definitely Human. As for the Cleric, its open to changes, but I lean towards the cheese of Lesser Aasimar.


Hmm...seems you're allowed flaws, which makes this a bit easier.

Ah, yes, 1 flaw allowed. Begged for two, but that received a solid no... so yeah.


If you're Human, Able Learner could help a lot (given that you'd have a decent amount of skill ranks, and your cohort would cover for the rest). Bardic Knack instead of Bardic Knowledge can be pretty useful, even more if your Cleric isn't the PHB one and is a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) instead. But I'll expand on the Cloistered Cleric later; Bard is what I'll deal with now.

Able Learner combined with what, 1 level of Factotum? My understanding of Able Learner is that it merely maintains class skills, not gives you new ones. I'd like to stay straight Bard to maximize uses of daily music without having to burn feats on Extra Music.

I'm sorry I forgot to mention that I was already using Bardic Knack. :smallredface: I didn't think it would be relevant to the combat side of explanation, but I don't mind your opinion. What Jack of All Trades enables is the usage of cross-class skills untrained. The combination of the two means that I now can now do anything cross class.

That being said, that's all Jack of All Trades really does for me, though, so if there's another feat you want to suggest, this is the first to go.


TWF isn't a good idea on the Bard (at least, I'd decline on having him fight, although you seem to be a bit dead set on helping on the frontline).

I was under the impression that this was how one maxed out the bonuses from high Inspire Courage/Snowflake Wardance/Dragonfire Inspiration. Admittedly it might not be the "best" idea in a vacuum to throw a bard on the frontline (I believe the "best" was to charm/dominate/diplomance people, but that makes many DMs angry), but if one would fling the bard into combat, like I said, this was what I got the impression of. The reasoning is that the massive bonuses cancel out your TWF penalties and highly value additional attacks you can make.


Good feat recommendations would be Dragontouched + Draconic Aura (if your DM allows Vigor as an aura, even better), and Extra Music (the more bardic music daily uses you have, the better). If you have the Eberron campaign setting and the Spell Compendium, the combo of Inspirational Boost and Song of the Heart are almost a prerequisite (Inspire Courage +3, and +3d6 damage from DFI).

With Jack of All Trades up in the air, I'm considering Draconic Aura (Vigor). Forget burning a feat on useless Dragontouched, I think I can instead be a Silverbrow Human, take my lack of extra skill points to the gut, but flaunt my sidestepping of a junk feat.

Inspirational Boost and Song of the Heart are items/feats/spells/what? Sorry, but I'm AFB and want to know how I'm spending my resources.


As for spells, since your Cleric will have access to spontaneous conversion to Cure X Wounds spells (and since wands of CLW are far better), you'll want to stay away from having those spells on your list.

Cure X Wounds? Psh. Lesser Vigor all the way. :smalltongue:


Grease will be a decent 1st level spell (even if a fellow arcanist has it on their list), Alter Self, Glitterdust and Mirror Image are superb 2nd level spells, and Haste is essential once you get 3rd level spells (unless a Sorcerer takes that job, but you're going to be the buffer...) Important thing: if you find a spell on both the Bard and the Cleric spell list, and the spell is one that would do better if prepared, leave it to the Cleric (that means pretty much all healing spells, including and not limited to all CW spells, Remove Fear, and so on).

Barring Alter Self (banned for very good headache inducing reasons), I agree completely.


Another question: planning on getting to Sublime Chord, or planning on keeping it as a Bard? You might want to see Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Mage) since it boosts your spellcasting but doesn't sacrifice your bardic music, and it boosts sonic spells by a lot (which allows you to be a good attacker).

I keep seeing Sublime Chord builds. What's the major draw of them? Faster spellcasting progression? It might sound silly but again the character I'm gunning for is less spellcasting, more sword sickle-slinging.


Oh, and...no need for Weapon Finesse or Shadow Blade. If you're going for Snowflake Wardance, that covers both feats.

The reason I asked is because Snowflake Wardance is an addition, not a replacement. It's raw number advantage I was hunting for with those feats, because with Shadow Blade you can add Dexterity to damage. Combined with adding Charisma to hit, I can combine my slew of positive modifiers (I did say I rolled high stats all around, right? :smallwink:) to make a bigger number than most.

Whether or not its worth the feat expenditure, though, is beyond me. The prerequisites are a b----.


First and foremost: Cloistered Cleric.

Asked about. Received a blanket ban on Unearthed Arcana material, except for that 1 flaw I mentioned earlier. What. :smallannoyed:

[PId6]

If you have feat troubles, Elf Domain gets you Point Blank Shot, while Planning gets Extend Spell.

Elf Domain: Point Blank Shot
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Knowledge Domain -> Knowledge Devotion
1: Precise Shot
Human: Persistent Spell
3: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

Don't even need flaws.

[balistafreak]

IRONY: That build doesn't have Martial Weapon Proficiency to use a bow with then, despite having PBS. At least not without being an Elf (and then you'd need a flaw for loss of a precious human bonus feat). Which, as we know, is ew. Constitution penalties. :smallannoyed:

Clerics don't have MWP. It's easy to forget, but a key reason in selecting the War Domain, since free Weapon Focus can't hurt, and at least it unlocks Holy Warrior (or whatever that War-spell reserve feat is) for later.

It all boils down to feats. With 1 flaw, you'll have three base at 4th level. You can get two more through Domain granted abilities and possibly one more from being a Human.

To stay an Archer, you'll need to somehow get MWP, Zen Archery, PBS, and Precise Shot at the very least. With only six feats to sling max, as shown above, DMM is impossible. Barring Elf, but again, ew.

[PId6]

Riiight, clerics don't get MWP. Well, you can use the flaw and actually be an elf for the proficiency. Or use the flaw for PBS and take War domain for the proficiency. You don't really need Zen Archery when you're Persisting buffs anyway.

Or get a Precise weapon and skip PBS + Precise Shot.

[balistafreak]

Back to the Bard.

Let me get this straight. I have base IC +1, brought up to +2 by Song of the Heart. I use a standard action to activate it. Cast Inspirational Boost as a swift action while doing so to get up to +3, then activate Badge of Valor as an immediate action after my turn ends to get it up to +4.

Do this again the next turn, but with Dragonfire Inspiration, for 4d6 elemental damage. (Alternatively, skip this step if it seems like overkill, or I need to start cutting people up now.)

(Depending on which effect I want to maintain more, I can reverse the orders, so that I start and maintain IC, not DI.)

Finally, as a free action, Snowflake Wardance for Charisma to hit, and go to town.

Oh, and I'll wield a Crystal Echoblade to get +3 sonic damage (right now, as it adds half bard level to damage), just because I can.

With so many bonuses, it seems like TWF is the way to go. Or anything else with a lot of attacks. Heck, I probably won't need to pull out DI unless I'm against a "boss" or something.

... god, Bards are feat-starved.

What good Bard spells are there outside of core? Inspirational Boost is the obvious one, but I'm not familiar with the others.

[CapnVan]

*snip*
My current picture of it in six bard levels eats up three of my five feats: Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Two Weapon Fighting. My second two feats are Leadership and Jack of all Trades.

I'll be wielding a pair of sickles, the only light slashing weapons I have available to me.
*snip*

Does Snowflake Wardance allow for two-handed fighting?

To quote: "you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand."

[balistafreak]

Does Snowflake Wardance allow for two-handed fighting?

To quote: "you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand."

Not two-handed fighting, two-weapon fighting. I fight with two weapons, because I have two hands, and each one holds a one-handed slashing weapon. There. I am now wielding two slashing melee weapons, each wielded in one hand.

The wording also lets me apply the bonus if I hold two weapons in one hand, but seeing as that's not covered by the rules, it's a moot point.

[T.G. Oskar]

The race for the (feat-starved) Bard is definitely Human. As for the Cleric, its open to changes, but I lean towards the cheese of Lesser Aasimar.

Funny how your DM disallows Unearthed Arcana (sans flaws), but allows Lesser Aasimar. Not that it's a bad choice, but a bit weird.

Dwarf isn't a bad Cleric choice, since you get a strong Constitution bonus and while you get a penalty to Charisma, you get none on what you really want (Wisdom), so you can focus mostly on Con/Wis/Cha and divine feats.

Though...I don't debate using Lesser Aasimar. Pretty much offers the benefits that you want as a Cleric...


Able Learner combined with what, 1 level of Factotum? My understanding of Able Learner is that it merely maintains class skills, not gives you new ones. I'd like to stay straight Bard to maximize uses of daily music without having to burn feats on Extra Music.

Able Learner does more than just that. You can spend 1 skill point on all cross-class skills instead of two, which is the larger benefit when compared to Jack of all Trades. Think about it: while Jack of All Trades grants access to cross-class skills, Able Learner grants you the use of 1 skill point for every single class. Granted, you still have the limit on how many ranks you can have, but in the end, it's a much more robust bonus. Factotum is mostly so you can get all class skills; you can also get one level of Exemplar if you want, but that's not as important.


I'm sorry I forgot to mention that I was already using Bardic Knack. :smallredface: I didn't think it would be relevant to the combat side of explanation, but I don't mind your opinion. What Jack of All Trades enables is the usage of cross-class skills untrained. The combination of the two means that I now can now do anything cross class.

That being said, that's all Jack of All Trades really does for me, though, so if there's another feat you want to suggest, this is the first to go.

Oh, Bardic Knack is pretty nice. You'll need Identify, Legend Lore and eventually Analyze Dweomer as spells to do what Bardic Knowledge does as a class ability, but Bardic Knack is pretty solid. 1/2 your class level as a bonus on nearly everything?

But yeah, Jack of All Trades is a bit lackluster. Though, I don't recall if Bardic Knack's bonus can't apply to class skills (or is it otherwise? AFB at the moment, so...)


I was under the impression that this was how one maxed out the bonuses from high Inspire Courage/Snowflake Wardance/Dragonfire Inspiration. Admittedly it might not be the "best" idea in a vacuum to throw a bard on the frontline (I believe the "best" was to charm/dominate/diplomance people, but that makes many DMs angry), but if one would fling the bard into combat, like I said, this was what I got the impression of. The reasoning is that the massive bonuses cancel out your TWF penalties and highly value additional attacks you can make.

It also forces you to raise your Dex bonus and spend extra feats to make TWF worthwhile. As you said, Bards are feat-starved (which is a bit of an understatement; you already seek for Snowflake Wardance and Song of the Heart, which are the staples on Bards). Now, if you had something like Words of Creation, that would be sickening, but I presume your DM is wary of having BoED in your table...


With Jack of All Trades up in the air, I'm considering Draconic Aura (Vigor). Forget burning a feat on useless Dragontouched, I think I can instead be a Silverbrow Human, take my lack of extra skill points to the gut, but flaunt my sidestepping of a junk feat.

DFI works best if you can claim a much better draconic heritage than Fire. Silverbrow Human grants you an extra feat and cold damage, which is great if you mix it with Snowflake Wardance (you can claim to come from a very cold region, maybe a skald from a Norse-like civilization), but mechanically not as good as, say, Acid or Sonic or even Force. Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage (acid-, sonic- or force-breathing dragons) would be even better, but that would make your DM eye you horribly and maybe it won't fly out.


Inspirational Boost and Song of the Heart are items/feats/spells/what? Sorry, but I'm AFB and want to know how I'm spending my resources.

Inspirational Boost is a spell from Spell Compendium. It's a swift-action spell, lasts for one round, and basically increases your Inspire Courage bonus by 1 for the duration of the song (so you basically cast it before singing, and you get the bonus for the duration of the song). I think it also benefits Inspire Greatness, but again, AFB at the moment.

Song of the Heart is from Eberron, and it's a feat that has no other prerequisites than having Bardic Music. It basically increases by 1 the benefit of every single bardic music (again, might be mistaken, but you usually use it for Inspire Courage).


Cure X Wounds? Psh. Lesser Vigor all the way. :smalltongue:

Well, recall that the Cleric *still* has that option, so don't waste it. I mean, you can save one or two uses of a Wand of Lesser Vigor that way, specifically before resting. At least until you get to Heal, which blows even Lesser Vigor out of the water.


Barring Alter Self (banned for very good headache inducing reasons), I agree completely.

I'd say Alter Self isn't that headache-inducing. I mean, your main character will be quite probably a humanoid, so mostly humanoid forms. Polymorph is a greater candidate, I'd say.

Though, your DM's word is final...


I keep seeing Sublime Chord builds. What's the major draw of them? Faster spellcasting progression? It might sound silly but again the character I'm gunning for is less spellcasting, more sword sickle-slinging.

Not really faster spellcasting progression, but actually having 9th level spells. You don't get faster spellcasting progression (to get all of the benefits, a Bard must be at level 9), but you get the all-important spells.

Hence, Lyric Thaumaturge. It's less of a focus on magic and more of a detour. You get a bit more spellcasting, a slightly wider variety of spells (at least one spell from 1st to 6th level from Sor/Wiz, which can complement your bard's spells) and boosts to Sonic Damage. The prerequisite feat, IIRC, is great for a Bard (not sure if it's either the feat that allows you to use Perform as if Concentration, or the feat that allows you to cast spells while singing). Give it a read, in any case.

(Besides: Sublime Chord is hard to enter, but if any class can enter with a Bard dip...)


The reason I asked is because Snowflake Wardance is an addition, not a replacement. It's raw number advantage I was hunting for with those feats, because with Shadow Blade you can add Dexterity to damage. Combined with adding Charisma to hit, I can combine my slew of positive modifiers (I did say I rolled high stats all around, right? :smallwink:) to make a bigger number than most.

Whether or not its worth the feat expenditure, though, is beyond me. The prerequisites are a b----.

It's a bit of a tough choice. Shadow Blade requires you to spend one feat to get a Shadow Hand maneuver (or barring that, a dip in another class), and Weapon Finesse is another feat you must have, in order to get...a +4 on attacks, tops. You can do roughly the same without less effort by receiving a Bull's Strength spell on your behalf (either your own spell or your Cleric cohort's spell), which is basically a +2 bonus to attack and defense. Also, recall that Weapon Finesse clearly states that it's a replacement, not an addition: if you suddenly try to accumulate Dex and Strength, you'll use the best of the two for attack and quite probably both for damage. You already are spending feats like crazy.


Asked about. Received a blanket ban on Unearthed Arcana material, except for that 1 flaw I mentioned earlier. What. :smallannoyed:

*facepalm*

If there would be something I wouldn't ban from Unearthed Arcana, it would be Cloistered Cleric. It's actually a much more spellcasting-inclined Cleric than the PHB version (and it doesn't hurt the Paladin as much as the PHB Cleric does). I presume that your DM must have seen the Cloistered Cleric + Knowledge Devotion combination somewhere, and it might have deemed that "too powerful", while not considering that Clerics by themselves are already powerful. Loss of heavy armor is a mixed bag (your Cleric won't get very high AC with a combination of heavy armor + Magic Vestment, but you won't have to spend much on him), less HP (better than a magician but worse than a Rogue; seems fine to me), and spells that won't affect much in combat (unless you suddenly try to outsmart your DM with those spells, since they are Divination spells...). Maybe it's the Knowledge Devotion, or the 6+Int skill points?

[PId6]

You can get a Masterwork Mandolin (CAdv) for +1 atk/-1 dmg on IC. Attack is usually preferable to damage anyway, but this gets even better once you add in DFI. Since DFI is solely based on IC attack bonus, not damage bonus, it's basically a free +1d6 to DFI damage.

Dragontouched + Dragon Heritage [Battle Dragon] lets you switch breath weapon type to sonic. It also lets you not have to use Silverbrow Human, so you can go regular human or Strongheart Halfling if you like. Overall, the two feats are probably more than you can spend, but it's an option to keep in mind. (A dragon-blooded sorcerer 1 dip can get you both of these if you really want them.)

Currently, there's two paths you can go. You can be a melee-focused bard and go off into an initiator class. With Song of the White Raven, Bard 4/Warblade or Crusader X is a fairly good build for that. Alternatively, you can have more of a focus on casting, going something like Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Bard +2/Virtuosos 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuosos +8.

[CapnVan]

Not two-handed fighting, two-weapon fighting. I fight with two weapons, because I have two hands, and each one holds a one-handed slashing weapon. There. I am now wielding two slashing melee weapons, each wielded in one hand.

The wording also lets me apply the bonus if I hold two weapons in one hand, but seeing as that's not covered by the rules, it's a moot point.

I did understand the grammar, thanks. Apparently better than you do, if your second paragraph is any indication - "weapon" is decidedly singular.

I think you'll find that there isn't a consensus on whether Snowflake Wardance allows for using two weapons. The RAW isn't 100% clear, but there have been other instances (bladesinger comes to mind) where the RAI was one single-handed weapon, leaving a free hand.

[balistafreak]

I did understand the grammar, thanks. Apparently better than you do, if your second paragraph is any indication - "weapon" is decidedly singular.

Time to go on a grammar tangent! :smalltongue:

"Weapon" may be singular, but it is preceded by "any", for a total of "any weapon held in one hand". As long as there is a weapon held in one hand, it qualifies. Whether there are other weapons in that hand is irrelevant.

I am holding seven knives in one hand. Let's select one particular knife. Is it held in one hand? Yes. (How I'm holding seven knives is beyond me, though.)

While the concept might be unclear about whether or not it was meant for one weapon overall or two (we aren't in the designer's head, after all), the wording clearly supports TWF by both RAI and RAW.

As for the masterwork mandolin, are there specific rules for such an item taking up a hand? If it's a choice between getting the +1/-1 or wielding two weapons, the sheer magnitude of the bonuses make me lean toward the second weapon.

Finally, Mindbender. Where is it, what does the level give, and what do I gain over straight bard?

[PId6]

As for the masterwork mandolin, are there specific rules for such an item taking up a hand? If it's a choice between getting the +1/-1 or wielding two weapons, the sheer magnitude of the bonuses make me lean toward the second weapon.
It'll take up a hand, but you can drop it immediately afterward. I also prefer two-handed weapon (well, one handed weapon in two hands) + Power Attack if using regular IC, since it saves feats compared to TWF.


Finally, Mindbender. Where is it, what does the level give, and what do I gain over straight bard?
CArcane. One level gains you full casting and telepathy 100 ft, letting you take the Mindsight feat (LoM), which is just awesome.

[balistafreak]

It'll take up a hand, but you can drop it immediately afterward. I also prefer two-handed weapon (well, one handed weapon in two hands) + Power Attack if using regular IC, since it saves feats compared to TWF.

The musician in me SCREAMS OUT IN PAIN at the idea of dropping a PRECIOUS MUSICAL INSTRUMENT NOOOOOOOOOO!!!

And doesn't that still have the problem of not maintaining the bardic music after starting it? Or is that not how IC works?

As for Two-Handing/Power Attacking, doesn't that reduce the benefit from DI?


CArcane. One level gains you full casting and telepathy 100 ft, letting you take the Mindsight feat (LoM), which is just awesome.

Mindsight means you see minds, right? So anything with a mind is completely visible to you, always.

[Greenish]

could you sink a feat into exotic weapon proficiency for a whip? the cleric can deliver touch spells thenYou can't deliver touch spells with weapons unless you have a class feature which specifically allows it. Otherwise it's unarmed touch attack.

[T.G. Oskar]

And doesn't that still have the problem of not maintaining the bardic music after starting it? Or is that not how IC works?


Technically, unless said otherwise (or at least specifically stated on Inspire Courage), Bardic Music effects linger for at least 5 rounds after use. Thus, you can keep DFI for around 5 rounds while doing other stuff.


Mindsight means you see minds, right? So anything with a mind is completely visible to you, always.

Mindsight is mostly used as a kind of Blindsense: you know where the characters with minds are, which means you can detect their presence although you can't pinpoint them. Since it extends to 100 ft, and telepathy is pretty hard to block, that means you're aware of pretty much every single enemy within area, regardless of whether they're hidden, invisible, or even in the Ethereal Plane. From there, you can figure out what to do (usually use Glitterdust to reveal them, or use a Force spell to strike them from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane).

Sure, it doesn't detect mindless undead, oozes, plants, and other mindless creatures. Then again, they are few and far between, AND they don't use hiding techniques. So Mindsight is pretty much one incredible way to detect characters.

So yes and no; you can pinpoint where minds are, but not exactly ALWAYS see them. Concealment, of course, is your nemesis there.

[PId6]

And doesn't that still have the problem of not maintaining the bardic music after starting it? Or is that not how IC works?
IC lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing, which is about as long as most combats. You can extend that to 10 rounds with the Lingering Song feat.


As for Two-Handing/Power Attacking, doesn't that reduce the benefit from DI?
It has a few advantages over TWF. For one, you're less dependent on full attacks for damage. For another, it's less feat dependent. And since it appears you're often using regular IC over DFI anyways, it's worth keeping in mind as another option.

[Saintheart]

On the bard: no love for Words of Creation from BoED? Sure, it's got the whiff of cheese about it, but at the very least for an 8th level bard you'll have him pumping out +7s to attack, damage, saves...

[T.G. Oskar]

On the bard: no love for Words of Creation from BoED? Sure, it's got the whiff of cheese about it, but at the very least for an 8th level bard you'll have him pumping out +7s to attack, damage, saves...

I made a blanket mention of it. However, given how his DM is selective towards things (Cloistered Cleric is out, which isn't even close to cheddar unless you mix it with Knowledge Devotion which makes it...American cheese, methinks), I don't think Words of Creation will fly out.

If it does (which would be awesome), he'd get a nifty boost on Inspire Courage (+2 from class, +1 from Insp. Boost, +1 from Song of the Heart, and then IIRC all of that doubles by means of WoC) along with other goodies, at the cost of nonlethal damage (a few d6's of damage, but since healing spells treat nonlethal damage as a separate tally...)

Thing is, most DMs won't even get near the book, and as you mentioned, the whiff of gouda would be enough to step him away. If BoED was allowed, and ballista would willingly play a CG character, I'd also recommend Troubadour of Stars. Not exactly a melee powerhouse, but it keeps song, magic and fighting skill at a relatively equal level and he gets good-aligned powers at that.

Oh...that reminds me. There's an item set on Magic Item Compendium that can help a bit on the IC/DFI side. Specifically Badge of Valor, which is pretty much another addition to IC.

[balistafreak]

IC lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing, which is about as long as most combats. You can extend that to 10 rounds with the Lingering Song feat.

But both IC and DI take a standard action to begin. You'll only get three rounds of buff then... which I'm sure at least half of the combats last longer than.


It has a few advantages over TWF. For one, you're less dependent on full attacks for damage. For another, it's less feat dependent. And since it appears you're often using regular IC over DFI anyways, it's worth keeping in mind as another option.

I suppose. The order of priority is IC>DI<-->SW depending on how many people are using attack rolls. And TWF feat dependency sucks. A lot.

Wait, I'm pretty sure Snowflake Wardance said "wielded in one hand", not "one-handed weapon". Doesn't that rule out two-handed Power Attacking? :smallconfused:

It looks like I CAN squeeze Cloistered Cleric out of my DM. Good times. I'll make those edits...

[PId6]

But both IC and DI take a standard action to begin. You'll only get three rounds of buff then... which I'm sure at least half of the combats last longer than.
I feel like buffing with both is a bit too much of a waste of both Bardic Music uses and actions. You can do that with boss battles, I suppose, but on a regular basis, spending two buff rounds not doing anything is a bit much. There's also the conflict of Badge of Valor requiring immediate and Inspirational Boost requiring swift, so it gets annoying trying to fully boost both effects if you use one after the other.


Wait, I'm pretty sure Snowflake Wardance said "wielded in one hand", not "one-handed weapon". Doesn't that rule out two-handed Power Attacking? :smallconfused:
Huh, you're right. Didn't realize that. Guess you can't just wield scimitar and two-hand it. Go with TWF I guess, maybe with a barbarian dip if you can fit it.

[balistafreak]

I feel like buffing with both is a bit too much of a waste of both Bardic Music uses and actions. You can do that with boss battles, I suppose, but on a regular basis, spending two buff rounds not doing anything is a bit much. There's also the conflict of Badge of Valor requiring immediate and Inspirational Boost requiring swift, so it gets annoying trying to fully boost both effects if you use one after the other.

Yeah, DI is probably best saved for "bosses".

And I hadn't realized the immediate action/lose your next swift action conflict. Eeew. :smallannoyed:

[Saintheart]

I made a blanket mention of it. However, given how his DM is selective towards things (Cloistered Cleric is out, which isn't even close to cheddar unless you mix it with Knowledge Devotion which makes it...American cheese, methinks), I don't think Words of Creation will fly out.

If it does (which would be awesome), he'd get a nifty boost on Inspire Courage (+2 from class, +1 from Insp. Boost, +1 from Song of the Heart, and then IIRC all of that doubles by means of WoC) along with other goodies, at the cost of nonlethal damage (a few d6's of damage, but since healing spells treat nonlethal damage as a separate tally...)

...

Oh...that reminds me. There's an item set on Magic Item Compendium that can help a bit on the IC/DFI side. Specifically Badge of Valor, which is pretty much another addition to IC.

Seconded on Badge of Valor. Song of Heart + Masterwork Lute + Badge of Valor + Level 7 bard = +5 bonuses for your 7th level friends, which is just gold.

I reproduced the bit about BoED, though, because that was something I wondered about: does Words of Creation double the base Inspire Courage effect, or the cumulative Inspire Courage effect once you add on the various feats and items? For a bard optimised along the above lines at level 7 or 8 it actually is the difference between +7 bonuses and +10 bonuses all round. I thought my copy of BoED is silent on it, but I've heard there are versions of BoED out there which say it's the base effect.

[T.G. Oskar]

I feel like buffing with both is a bit too much of a waste of both Bardic Music uses and actions. You can do that with boss battles, I suppose, but on a regular basis, spending two buff rounds not doing anything is a bit much. There's also the conflict of Badge of Valor requiring immediate and Inspirational Boost requiring swift, so it gets annoying trying to fully boost both effects if you use one after the other.

Well, using Bardic Music and then Haste on next turn counts as two actions, and those are two valuable actions you'll like to do ASAP. But then again, that depends on how you visualize your character: I don't mind buffing, so knowing the rest of the people do the work is fine by me (and specifically if I play a Small race along with Bard...say, Gnome :P) However, it's going to hurt a bit if you can't fight after the first round of buffing.

Still: Lingering Song is a must. You can chain buffs with it. Also, Melodic Casting (the feat I mentioned that allows you to cast spells while singing).

As for Inspirational Boost: I reckon that it lasts until your next turn, so you can use IB as a swift, use Haste, then next turn use the double buff. Might be wrong on that, but it's not a bad idea after all.


I reproduced the bit about BoED, though, because that was something I wondered about: does Words of Creation double the base Inspire Courage effect, or the cumulative Inspire Courage effect once you add on the various feats and items? For a bard optimised along the above lines at level 7 or 8 it actually is the difference between +7 bonuses and +10 bonuses all round. I thought my copy of BoED is silent on it, but I've heard there are versions of BoED out there which say it's the base effect.

I favor the interpretation of the "cumulative" Inspire Courage effect, even as a DM. Thing is, at that moment there weren't many modifiers to Inspire Courage, so that usually meant you could only have Words of Creation as a booster, so the reading didn't mind. However, with 3.5 and IC boosters, things changed. I could check to see if what you said is correct, but currently I'm AFBs (doing some room cleaning -_-u) and can't check.

[balistafreak]

Taking all of your advice into count, and am working hard. Sorry if it seems like I'm not listening.

Looked up Lyric Thaumaturge. Good god, what a PrC.

That is definitely going to be my 7th level.

The more and more I look at Snowflake Wardance, the less necessary it seems to me - mainly because it's either that or Song of the Heart, and I'd much rather have Song of the Heart. With my 6th level feat tied up with Leadership (which I'm sure we'll probably agree is far stronger than Wardance), I'm not going to get it until 9th level. (Aka possibly never.)

Seeing as I'm not going to have any way to get bonus feats, it seems like the best thing to do at this point might be just dropping the combat focus and pulling out ye olde (short)bow and arrows. Of course, then I run into the problem of not actually having any archery feats. (On an unrelated note, I want to punch whoever decided shortbows were somehow easier to use than longbows in the face. So not true.)

Alternatively I could nab a shield for some much-needed bonus AC and simply wade in with a melee weapon anyways, damn my relative weakness. Is this simply what bards are expected to do?

[Greenish]

The more and more I look at Snowflake Wardance, the less necessary it seems to me - mainly because it's either that or Song of the Heart, and I'd much rather have Song of the Heart. With my 6th level feat tied up with Leadership (which I'm sure we'll probably agree is far stronger than Wardance), I'm not going to get it until 9th level. (Aka possibly never.)

Seeing as I'm not going to have any way to get bonus feats, it seems like the best thing to do at this point might be just dropping the combat focusYou don't need the wardance to maintain your combat focus, it's just a nice addition you can do without.

[balistafreak]

Just a last post for final checkups. After much work and struggle I think I'm basically done with the character sheets.

Here's the Mythweavers post with links to both sheets. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=102504) I'd appreciate it if people gave them a final once over.

The Bard is being built as a Inspire Courage monster who is an okay fighter and caster as well - a classic jack of all, master of one. He will be entering Lyric Thaumaturge next level. Something I noticed with the party construction is that it's leaning heavily towards casters - are there any methods to boost them, or ways to improve melee durability? (The Bard may end up on tank duty. :smallannoyed:)

The Cleric is being built as the party band-aid box (with the Lesser Vigor Wand), going into Church Inquisitor for the awesome bonus abilities and full casting progression, not to mention the "bonus feat" in the form of (traded for) Knowledge Devotion. I'm heavily debating Protection Devotion - it's there to reinforce the "passive" archetype I was shooting for, but Rapid Shot practically doubles damage output... especially with the Inspire Courage bard. Is there any way to grab another extra Domain (aka bonus devotion feat) with a level-dip in the future?

Quick trait is on both characters because neither should be absorbing lots of damage, and those two extra tiles of movement are priceless in tactical situations.

One thing I'd like help on is shopping. While I found it distasteful, I decided that shelling out a massive 6000 out of my allotted 19300 budget on "light armor full plate" in the form of Psychoactive Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor was practically required to get the Cleric's AC up to something that didn't read "made of tissue paper". It's most of the reason why I even considered Protection Devotion over Rapid Shot. Are there any cheaper ways to achieve an AC of 20+ with such a character? (The statlines are where I want them, mostly due to racial/template boosts, so no, shoving points into Dexterity is not an option.) Also, are there any massively useful items I'm missing?

[T.G. Oskar]

The Bard is being built as a Inspire Courage monster who is an okay fighter and caster as well - a classic jack of all, master of one. He will be entering Lyric Thaumaturge next level.

Glad you could take it. I mean, it's not Sublime Chord, but it's wonderful nonetheless since it gives some extra casting punch to the Bard without losing the core concepts (Bardic Music progression, combat ability and spellcasting ability).


Something I noticed with the party construction is that it's leaning heavily towards casters - are there any methods to boost them, or ways to improve melee durability? (The Bard may end up on tank duty. :smallannoyed:)

There's a divine feat (I think it's on one of the Fiendish Codices, so might not fly out) that uses your Turn Undead attempts to boost caster level of allies. Or maybe it's just the caster; not much time to check out. Thing is, Clerics have very little options to aid casters, but that shouldn't be a problem since casters are pretty much buff in their own ways, so all you need is provide them the buffs that they might be missing. Haste makes them move faster, Shield of Faith and Nightshield (second from SC) gives them strong protection buffs (and the latter works great until you can get to Superior Resistance, or one of your allies does)...caster level buffs are pretty difficult to come by, actually, which is what benefits your casters even more.


The Cleric is being built as the party band-aid box (with the Lesser Vigor Wand), going into Church Inquisitor for the awesome bonus abilities and full casting progression, not to mention the "bonus feat" in the form of (traded for) Knowledge Devotion. I'm heavily debating Protection Devotion - it's there to reinforce the "passive" archetype I was shooting for, but Rapid Shot practically doubles damage output... especially with the Inspire Courage bard. Is there any way to grab another extra Domain (aka bonus devotion feat) with a level-dip in the future?

Well, you usually drop the domain feats at the moment you become a Cleric, so not sure if that'll fly out.

Having said that: most bonus domains are gained through PrCs, so not such luck in that case. Divine Crusader can be used as a dip, where you can get an extra domain from your deity; problem lies in that you'll be losing one caster level to get extra "slots" for your 1st level spells, which are limited only to the chosen domain (so if you replace it, you can't use those spells).

Recall that you can get devotion feats even if you don't have access to the domain; it's just that Clerics get MORE domain feats by replacing their domain choices.


One thing I'd like help on is shopping. While I found it distasteful, I decided that shelling out a massive 6000 out of my allotted 19300 budget on "light armor full plate" in the form of Psychoactive Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor was practically required to get the Cleric's AC up to something that didn't read "made of tissue paper". It's most of the reason why I even considered Protection Devotion over Rapid Shot. Are there any cheaper ways to achieve an AC of 20+ with such a character? (The statlines are where I want them, mostly due to racial/template boosts, so no, shoving points into Dexterity is not an option.) Also, are there any massively useful items I'm missing?

Ring of Protection +1 (though Shield of Faith is better), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (unless a Druid has Barkskin)...those are cheap yet useful ways to get your AC rather high. I recall there's a Ring of Force Shield that's pretty much a heavy shield without encumbrance and that adds to your touch AC vs. incorporeal attacks for a measly 8,500 gp (another strong hit, but one that you might consider as your adventure goes). Also, while your Cleric is ATM a level 4 character, it might progress into a level 5 character, which means Magic Vestments: that's roughly a +1 extra AC, and the rest of your buffs will increase in size (Shield of Faith should be giving a +2 bonus, for example).

Also, recall that Haste (which you SHOULD have...) grants a +1 reflex bonus to AC, so that's another point in your favor. So really, there's not much worry about getting an insanely high AC bonus at that level, since with Ectoplasmic Skin, Shield of Faith and perhaps an Amulet of NA, you can have a pretty strong AC bonus.

Also: recall that while you don't want to raise your Dex directly, you can use Cat's Grace on your behalf. That's about 4 minutes of +2 to AC and +2 to Reflex.

As a final reminder: best way to raise your AC is through small things adding up, instead of one big thing costing more than the sum of its parts.

[balistafreak]

Thing is, Clerics have very little options to aid casters, but that shouldn't be a problem since casters are pretty much buff in their own ways, so all you need is provide them the buffs that they might be missing. Haste makes them move faster, Shield of Faith and Nightshield (second from SC) gives them strong protection buffs (and the latter works great until you can get to Superior Resistance, or one of your allies does)...caster level buffs are pretty difficult to come by, actually, which is what benefits your casters even more.

Shield of Faith is being prepared... possibly in multiples. Pity there's no method to really Chain it barring DMM... which I don't even want to bring up, given the DM's squeamish reactions. :smalltongue:


Well, you usually drop the domain feats at the moment you become a Cleric, so not sure if that'll fly out.

...

Recall that you can get devotion feats even if you don't have access to the domain; it's just that Clerics get MORE domain feats by replacing their domain choices.

It should work, because I'm swapping the Inquisition domain for the Knowledge Devotion in the same level I get it.

And yeah, I'm spending a feat on Protection Devotion. That's why I'm not amused by its cost - Rapid Shot really calls out as an alternative.


Ring of Protection +1 (though Shield of Faith is better), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (unless a Druid has Barkskin)...those are cheap yet useful ways to get your AC rather high.

Those are all less efficient than the Ectoplasmic Skin, I believe. From the strict perspective of "cost effective light armor barring dexterity", Ectoplasmic Skin is like a +4 enhancement bonus on a Chain Shirt for a mere 6000 gold. Each of those +1 AC items is, what, 2000? So yeah.


I recall there's a Ring of Force Shield that's pretty much a heavy shield without encumbrance and that adds to your touch AC vs. incorporeal attacks for a measly 8,500 gp (another strong hit, but one that you might consider as your adventure goes).

Measly? That's almost half my allotted wealth! And I have to arm two characters with it! :smallyuk:

... yeah, only receiving "NPC Wealth" for the Cohort is a kick in the pants, a loss of 2100 gold that could have gone a long, long way. :smallannoyed:


Also, while your Cleric is ATM a level 4 character, it might progress into a level 5 character, which means Magic Vestments: that's roughly a +1 extra AC, and the rest of your buffs will increase in size (Shield of Faith should be giving a +2 bonus, for example).

I know, can't wait 'till the level up.

I actually debated setting the Bard on fire and taking Thrallherd to get a better cohort. :smalltongue:


Also, recall that Haste (which you SHOULD have...) grants a +1 reflex bonus to AC, so that's another point in your favor.

You keep talking about Haste. :smalltongue: Bards get it at 7th level, not 6th. Slow casting progression.


Also: recall that while you don't want to raise your Dex directly, you can use Cat's Grace on your behalf. That's about 4 minutes of +2 to AC and +2 to Reflex.

Hmm. I hadn't thought about that. That's a neat thought... Elf Domain gets it as a Domain spell, too, and it's probably better than Spiritual Weapon.

[PId6]

Get a Lesser Rod of Chain if you can; it's worth every penny.

For domains, dip 2 levels of Divine Oracle for Oracle domain, 1 level of Church Inquisitor for Inquisition domain, and 1 level of Contemplative for any domain of your choice.