Familicide saving throw [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

WowWeird

2010-07-19, 10:57 PM

OK, so this has bugging me since the strip in question; Familicide killed tons of dragons with a single tendril each. How did this work? Assuming it wasn't ridiculously unfair and denied a saving throw (it WAS epic, so that is a possibility);
1. Did every dragon get a Fortitude save (V's save DC was just too high)?
2. Did Momma Dragon get a Will save to hide her bloodline, and fail?
3. Did the dragons have to make a (flatfooted) Reflex save to dodge the pink tendrils?
4. Any or all of the above combined, or possibly another save entirely?

I'm leaning towards Fortitude, as it seemed to be a death effect, but...

Thoughts?

DougTheHead

2010-07-19, 11:04 PM

rewinn

2010-07-19, 11:16 PM

Hmmm... a black dragon that rolled a natural 20 on its saving throw vs. Familicide would certainly create an interesting obstacle for the Order, especially since it may require V to come clean to the rest of the group.

That would spoil the entire purpose of the spell, which is to wipe them ALL out. Given that there are hundreds of black dragons, if 5% survive, you've accomplished very little.

There can be no save vs that spell, except possibly with the aid of another Epic spell.

Morithias

2010-07-19, 11:20 PM

Moriarty

2010-07-19, 11:31 PM

Yes because lord knows that if I was to 'countryside' say a country. Let's us the USA of 300 million people. 5% of them surviving means I accomplished nothing. Seriously? For some nutty reason killing 285 million people with a single spell would be NOTHING!!?

the point of the spell is to leave no one left to take revenge in V's case, leaving even a single survivor would make the entire endeavor useless.

Darthteej

2010-07-20, 12:10 AM

Mellisan

2010-07-20, 01:23 AM

There have been several homebrews on the forum, without saving throws, and the result is about as practicall as a super lander. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy0e_EFUvLE)

The DC for a nerfed homebrew version of the spell(can't find the thread now), which has a saving throw,unusual circumstance, XP penalties, and a casting time is about 150. The way that Vaarsuvius casted it is estimated to have a DC of 200+.

The only way that this EVER worked in game terms was because the caster levels and spellcraft ranks of all 4 of the mages were combined, and even then it still might not have been possible without a natural 20.

Presumably Ms. Bloodsoak could cast it herself when she was alive though.

Perhaps it was using the ritual modifiers and each of the other epic splices contributed an epic spell slot? That's a sizable DC reduction.

In any case, she was more epic than the other two according to the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html). We don't know what level she was, so it could be 60, 70, or higher, with Spellcraft over 100.

As for the saving throw, you can avoid that by using the Slay seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/slay.htm), and conferring negative levels as Energy Drain. Stack that up high enough and it'll kill just about anything, even if they save for half. The Spellcraft DC for 34d4 negative levels (average 85, fort save for half = ~42) is 153 or so before area modifiers and whatever else, but that's not too unreasonable. A Great Wyrm Black Dragon has 37 HD, so that'd kill them pretty thoroughly.

Morquard

2010-07-20, 02:28 AM

the point of the spell is to leave no one left to take revenge in V's case, leaving even a single survivor would make the entire endeavor useless.

And this assumption already is where the spell fails to achive that goal. To assume that only blood-relatives would have reason to ever go and take revenge. Not friends or spouses or just other dragons that were pissed you just wiped out 25% of their race.
Or other non-black dragons that are pissed you just wiped out 25% of a race of dragons and rather kill you now before you wipe out 25% of their race too.
Or a five-headed dragon goddess who's pissed you just wiped out 25% of one of her follower-races.
Or a circle of druids who think wiping out 25% of any race is against the balance of nature and go to kill you before you do it again.

Should I continue?

Also, regarding saving throw. Is there any reason to believe they didn't get any? V said that about 25% of the black dragons got killed. We just assume that is because 25% were directly related to Mommy Dragon.
But what if say 50% of them were related just half of them made thier safe, and so were never shown in the killing-spree-montage?

Ancalagon

2010-07-20, 03:30 AM

Should I continue?

Yes, one more entry would have been nice:

"Or you make a god very angry."

Now that we included Tiamat I think we can let the enumeration rest. ;)

Phishfood

2010-07-20, 04:05 AM

Perhaps saving throw is proportional to degree of relation. All humans have a common male and female ancestor referred to as adam and eve (oddly, its believed they lived 300,000 years apart.)

So. Momma dragon gets no saving throw being target of the spell. Core family get an impossible saving throw, extended family need a natural 20, distant relatives get a 50-50 chance. Could work that out so that 25% die and still meet the needs of the spell since the higher the chance of revenge the harder their saving throw.

<edit>

Additional thought....the more distantly they are related to momma dragon the harder it is to track V down. Momma dragon knew that adventurers had come to her cave, killed her son and cleaned her out. Gives you a starting point. The rest just got struck down from the sky, could have been anything.

Trixie

2010-07-20, 04:35 AM

hamishspence

2010-07-20, 04:41 AM

Go back far enough, and you will have a person everyone can trace their ancestry to- however, they won't be the only person at the time, and they won't be "the first human"

What they will be, is "the last common ancestor"

Keep going back, and you'll keep meeting people from whom "everyone is descended from"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_common_ancestor

LuPuWei

2010-07-20, 05:01 AM

Biology doesn't work like that! :smallsigh:
{Scrubbed}

I think she meant the Adam and Eve theory, of common ancestry. Y chromosomes in men and mitochondrial DNA in everyone doesn't change very much, so there have been recent studies towards tracing human biological history in this way. There is a theory that there will be one man and one woman from whom we can all trace modern ancestry, but i'm not sure how strong the evidence for that is yet. And they're called Adam and Eve as a nod to the Bible.

Additional thought....the more distantly they are related to momma dragon the harder it is to track V down. Momma dragon knew that adventurers had come to her cave, killed her son and cleaned her out. Gives you a starting point. The rest just got struck down from the sky, could have been anything.

Except that any dragon visitng the Oracle could just ask him...

Phishfood

2010-07-20, 07:28 AM

Except that any dragon visitng the Oracle could just ask him...

Perhaps, how well known is the oracle? He refered to the dragon as an important client (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) suggests to me that black dragons don't visit often. Of course, could just be an important black dragon. I don't know much about the social hierarchy of dragons.

Anyhoo, back to the OP - it occurred to me that obviously tracking based on genetic relations doesn't cover adopted children, spouses etc. Since its magic and all perhaps the damage spreads through SOCIAL relations, marriage & father/son relations being stronger. Therefore the stronger the relation (and therefore the motivation for revenge) the more likely the target to be killed.

We also have another point to consider - V BELIEVES every dragon related to momma dragon is dead. V also believed (s)he had the power to take on team evil solo. V, not think through a plan before executing? we've never seen that before.:smalltongue:

In fact, read 640 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) again - "Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Every living creature that is directly related to those creatures is also dead."

Kish

2010-07-20, 07:56 AM

the point of the spell is to leave no one left to take revenge in V's case,

You're making an assumption which can't be supported from the comic. As Morquard pointed out, the spell was very bad for that purpose--but very good for the purpose "torture the dragon I just killed," which was what Vaarsuvius actually wanted to do with the spell.

That said, it certainly didn't look to me like there was any saving throw.

LuPuWei

2010-07-20, 07:57 AM

Ancalagon

2010-07-20, 08:45 AM

WowWeird

2010-07-20, 11:35 AM

the point of the spell is to leave no one left to take revenge in V's case, leaving even a single survivor would make the entire endeavor useless.

But we're unsure about what Familicide's original purpose was. Despite V's comment that it was for "just this situation", V clearly didn't research it him/herself, so it might have had a different purpose that could be adapted to the dragon wipeout (maybe Haerta was just looking for a quick way to kill as many people as possible, and family ties had the lowest Spellcraft DC).

Boci

2010-07-20, 11:51 AM

the point of the spell is to leave no one left to take revenge in V's case, leaving even a single survivor would make the entire endeavor useless.

The point of fire ball is to kill enemies. Does the fact that it sometimes does not kill enemies make it useless? Even epic magic has its limits (without extreme abuse), granted smaller limits than lower level spells.

Morquard

2010-07-20, 01:05 PM

But we're unsure about what Familicide's original purpose was. Despite V's comment that it was for "just this situation", V clearly didn't research it him/herself, so it might have had a different purpose that could be adapted to the dragon wipeout (maybe Haerta was just looking for a quick way to kill as many people as possible, and family ties had the lowest Spellcraft DC).
Yes, it wasn't V's spell obviously.
And Haerta might just have researched it for fun, she seems like the kind of girl to commit genocide to pass a boring afternoon.

What I just realised though: Mommy dragon did NOT die from the familicide! Ok, granted technically she was dead already before. But her head didn't die either, V had to manually disintegrate her afterwards.
What if the spell was designed that way, to leave the actual target alive and just kill all of his/her relatives?
So, that spell could have been some sort of punishment for people she didn't like. "You pissed me off one time too often. All you know and love are dead now. Have a nice day"

Shale

2010-07-20, 01:11 PM

Maybe it only affects living creatures?

Kish

2010-07-20, 01:12 PM

Yes, it wasn't V's spell obviously.
And Haerta might just have researched it for fun, she seems like the kind of girl to commit genocide to pass a boring afternoon.

What I just realised though: Mommy dragon did NOT die from the familicide! Ok, granted technically she was dead already before. But her head didn't die either, V had to manually disintegrate her afterwards.
What if the spell was designed that way, to leave the actual target alive and just kill all of his/her relatives?
So, that spell could have been some sort of punishment for people she didn't like. "You pissed me off one time too often. All you know and love are dead now. Have a nice day"
I'm not saying I disagree about Haerta's motives or capabilities, but, something you're treating as barely worth a "technical" note is central. The ancient black dragon was already dead. An epic-level necromancy spell which kills the living is most likely powered by negative energy--if anything, it's more likely to heal undead members of the family than kill them.

Morquard

2010-07-20, 01:15 PM

True, but we didn't see the dragon head get healed either ;)

But we really don't know anything so its all just guessing anyway, and I can guess whatever I want! Ha, take that! :D

Dr.Epic

2010-07-20, 02:12 PM

1. Did every dragon get a Fortitude save (V's save DC was just too high)?

I would think yes to both.

theMycon

2010-07-20, 02:51 PM

If memory serves, a few dragons got lanced 2 or 3 times by the tentacles. It might have had a "Congrats! You survived! Would you like a second go?" or a recursive "target all family members of survivors" effect.

B.I.T.T.

2010-07-20, 03:17 PM

I think the answer is that it doesn't really matter. The mechanics of the spell are most likely not material to the story. The story required that V cast a spell that bumps off the entire bloodline of the mother black dragon, so the spell succeeded. If the storyline requires one or two to survive...eh...that bridge will be crossed in due time.

That's just my theory.

derfenrirwolv

2010-07-20, 07:56 PM

[QUOTE=WowWeird;8959767]OK, so this has bugging me since the strip in question; Familicide killed tons of dragons with a single tendril each. How did this work? Assuming it wasn't ridiculously unfair and denied a saving throw (it WAS epic, so that is a possibility)

Its epic, so ANYTHING is a possibility. Its cannon in D&D that epic spells are home brew and made up by the caster.

1. Did every dragon get a Fortitude save (V's save DC was just too high)?

This may be the one i can answer... unlikely. While not all affected dragons weren't shown, if we saw all of the dragons its unlikely there was a save involved

Not including eggs i count 56 dragons.
Assuming the dc was so high they would need a 20 to save, each dragon has a 1/20 chance of makiing the save
The odds of making the save are 1 in 20.
The odds of not making the save is 19/20
the odds of all 56 dragons not making the save is (19/20)^56 = 5.67%

2. Did Momma Dragon get a Will save to hide her bloodline, and fail?

There's no evidence that the spell stops if someone in the chain makes their save (if they get one). Theres no evidence that thats not how it works either though.

3. Did the dragons have to make a (flatfooted) Reflex save to dodge the pink tendrils?

Same thing as the above fortitude save.

I'm leaning towards Fortitude, as it seemed to be a death effect, but...

Thoughts?

It was big cool muckety muck epic magic. Since it in a sense violates the way normal D&D works, is a set of fast and loose guidelines to begin with, i think any introspection into the alleged mechanics of the spell is immaterial.... with one exception.

The spell kills her closest LIVING relatives.ANd then their living relatives by blood. The spell apparently doesn't recognize marriage, and V is again overlooking the sentient emotional nature of XP bundles.

The boy has an uncle, who may very well be alive. For starters, from Momma BD to her son to his father to the uncle would be more jumps than Familicide was stated to work with. Secondly V said it goes through living relatives, and 2 of the jumps in that chain are already dead.

Moriarty

2010-07-20, 08:41 PM

And this assumption already is where the spell fails to achive that goal. To assume that only blood-relatives would have reason to ever go and take revenge. Not friends or spouses or just other dragons that were pissed you just wiped out 25% of their race.
Or other non-black dragons that are pissed you just wiped out 25% of a race of dragons and rather kill you now before you wipe out 25% of their race too.
Or a five-headed dragon goddess who's pissed you just wiped out 25% of one of her follower-races.
Or a circle of druids who think wiping out 25% of any race is against the balance of nature and go to kill you before you do it again.

Should I continue?

Also, regarding saving throw. Is there any reason to believe they didn't get any? V said that about 25% of the black dragons got killed. We just assume that is because 25% were directly related to Mommy Dragon.
But what if say 50% of them were related just half of them made thier safe, and so were never shown in the killing-spree-montage?

are you arguing that maybe V made mistakes in his plans during that story arc?

I didn't say killing 25% of all black drakes was a smart idea, but it wouldn't make sense to use it at all if it wouldn't even achieve the primary goals of V's plan. (To make sure no relative of the two dragons could ever threaten V's family again)

The point of fire ball is to kill enemies. Does the fact that it sometimes does not kill enemies make it useless? Even epic magic has its limits (without extreme abuse), granted smaller limits than lower level spells.

If you want to anything else than hurting some things who are standing close to each other, fireball becomes useless.

Right tool for the right job ect. If you want to bring your kids to school, fireball isn't going to help you

Boci

2010-07-20, 08:48 PM

are you arguing that maybe V made mistakes in his plans during that story arc?

I didn't say killing 25% of all black drakes was a smart idea, but it wouldn't make sense to use it at all if it wouldn't even achieve the primary goals of V's plan. (To make sure no relative of the two dragons could ever threaten V's family again)

But there might not be a spell that could kill the entire family of black dragons on the planet, not leaving a single alieve.

If you want to anything else than hurting some things who are standing close to each other, fireball becomes useless.

Right tool for the right job ect. If you want to bring your kids to school, fireball isn't going to help you

Following your logic it is unseless as it is, since it is meant to kill enemies but does not do that automatically without a save.

Kish

2010-07-20, 08:59 PM

are you arguing that maybe V made mistakes in his plans during that story arc?

I didn't say killing 25% of all black drakes was a smart idea, but it wouldn't make sense to use it at all if it wouldn't even achieve the primary goals of V's plan. (To make sure no relative of the two dragons could ever threaten V's family again)

Again. You're assuming that was actually the primary goal of Vaarsuvius' plan. If the actual primary goal of his/her plan was, "Torture the dragon I just killed," then s/he achieved it perfectly. Pointing out that what s/he did was aimed at a goal other than the one you're insisting s/he had=/="saying maybe V made mistakes in his plans."

KenderWizard

2010-07-20, 10:12 PM

Well, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) she says that the Oracle is given to the Dragons by their goddess. I always wondered what that meant- whether they had to pay as well, or the paid profession thing was just a way to sustain himself while he worked for the betterment of the Dragon race...

It seems to me that he is probably mandated to help the dragons, so his advice to them would be free and easier to interpret.

I always thought this just meant lots of people think the Oracle is given to them specifically. They show up, go "You're a kobold?!", get their answer, leave, and once they're through the memory spell, they remember the Oracle as whatever they had expected to find. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) They tell their kids "The Oracle, it was the most ancient of dragons, with faded skin and eyes like flames, just like my grandmother always told me!"

But I could be totally wrong!

The boy has an uncle, who may very well be alive. For starters, from Momma BD to her son to his father to the uncle would be more jumps than Familicide was stated to work with. Secondly V said it goes through living relatives, and 2 of the jumps in that chain are already dead.

Do we know the uncle is the boy dragon's father's brother, or could it have been Momma's brother? I don't remember the uncle being mentioned, so forgive me if that's a stupid question!

Kish

2010-07-20, 10:22 PM

She said "visiting [my son's] uncle." That strikes me as odd phrasing if she was visiting her own brother. She never explicitly said which parent the uncle was brother to.

Regardless, the point remains that "kill all blood relatives" was extremely unsuited for the purpose of "make family safe." For that matter, Vaarsuvius' own children, the ones s/he claimed to want to protect, were adopted; if s/he ever gave the "protect family" motivation a sincere thought, s/he should have immediately realized the flaw.

One Step Two

2010-07-21, 08:01 AM

Something I would like to put forward, is it possible using the epic rules to make a spell that would hurt others if a target fails a saving throw?

Because a far more insidious thing is if the Mother Black Dragon was the one who had to shrug off the epic DC to not let her family get killed.

If not, then I'd stick to the rule of cool, or the aforementioned Negative energy no save level drain. Clever idea that.

derfenrirwolv

2010-07-21, 10:56 AM

Regardless, the point remains that "kill all blood relatives" was extremely unsuited for the purpose of "make family safe." For that matter, Vaarsuvius' own children, the ones s/he claimed to want to protect, were adopted; if s/he ever gave the "protect family" motivation a sincere thought, s/he should have immediately realized the flaw.

Its because He*'s a pc race. He considers things like love, family, adoptions and the like as potential motivators. Despite a VERY large stick upside the head, it hasn't occurred to him* that other connections between family besides blood. He thinks dragons are just large chunks of xp to be collected.

Ancalagon

2010-07-21, 11:36 AM

Something I would like to put forward, is it possible using the epic rules to make a spell that would hurt others if a target fails a saving throw?

Where's the sense in that? The better you are at resisting something... the more likely you are affected by something? Wuh?

Moriarty

2010-07-21, 12:00 PM

the_tick_rules

2010-07-21, 12:03 PM

It was most likely a fortitude. But since this an epic spell and given it's power even by epic standards a huge one who it was apparently beyond even a dragon's save, which are pretty darn high.

Kish

2010-07-21, 12:40 PM

I am assuming V's intentions based on what he said out loud, it's not really that far feched.
Oh, well, that's what Vaarsuvius said s/he was doing? That trumps everything, especially your own pointing out how badly what s/he did suited his/her claimed purpose. It's not like Vaarsuvius only got into the soul splice in the first place by being fundamentally dishonest with himself/herself.

"It's not really that far-fetched" is an opinion; I disagree. :smalltongue:

Timberboar

2010-07-21, 01:05 PM

Where's the sense in that? The better you are at resisting something... the more likely you are affected by something? Wuh?

I think you misread.

He's suggesting a spell where Person A is forced to make a saving throw. If he fails, Person B takes damage (or what have you).

There is no "The better you are at resisting something... the more likely you are affected by something"

Optimystik

2010-07-21, 01:46 PM

I think you misread.

He's suggesting a spell where Person A is forced to make a saving throw. If he fails, Person B takes damage (or what have you).

There is no "The better you are at resisting something... the more likely you are affected by something"

This is how I read it too.

As far as Familicide offering a fort save, it's quite possible to make an instant-kill effect without one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerwordkill.htm) It seems to me this is a very reliable way to kill dragons - any descendant of Mama's will likely have less Hit Dice (and presumably HP), than she does.

Defiant

2010-07-23, 01:36 AM

What I don't understand is why the voices say

"You started it anyway."
"Well, sort of"
"You started this part of it, at least."

They seem to imply that V may have gone too far, or that V's actions were unjustified. But they weren't. This was the logical conclusion to the events that brought V to this point: killing everyone in the dragon's bloodline was the only way to keep her family safe, once the dragon's plan and motives had revealed themselves.

The evil beings in the soul splice of all should realize this the most. Others may get squeamish about the action, but we're talking about hell-damned souls here: they know what you have to do when it's necessary.

LuPuWei

2010-07-23, 01:48 AM

What I don't understand is why the voices say

"You started it anyway."
"Well, sort of"
"You started this part of it, at least."

They seem to imply that V may have gone too far, or that V's actions were unjustified. But they weren't. This was the logical conclusion to the events that brought V to this point: killing everyone in the dragon's bloodline was the only way to keep her family safe, once the dragon's plan and motives had revealed themselves.

The evil beings in the soul splice of all should realize this the most. Others may get squeamish about the action, but we're talking about hell-damned souls here: they know what you have to do when it's necessary.

They're saying V started it by killing her son (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) in the first place.

The Dragon started this part by opting for, arguably, disproportionate retribution.

Kish

2010-07-23, 07:28 AM

What I don't understand is why the voices say

"You started it anyway."
"Well, sort of"
"You started this part of it, at least."

They seem to imply that V may have gone too far, or that V's actions were unjustified.

No, really?

Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another. Vaarsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully when the reader sees the scale on which Vaarsuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.
Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to make the argument against genocide. Probably best that I not think about it too much.

But they weren't. This was the logical conclusion to the events that brought V to this point: killing everyone in the dragon's bloodline was the only way to keep her family safe, once the dragon's plan and motives had revealed themselves.
You don't understand. Vaarsuvius didn't go nearly far enough. The world is still full of sapients, each of whom threatens Vaarsuvius' family. S/he needed to kill them all. That's the only way to keep his/her family safe, once one sapient revealed a plan to kill his/her family.

B. Dandelion

2010-07-23, 08:04 AM

You don't understand. Vaarsuvius didn't go nearly far enough. The world is still full of sapients, each of whom threatens Vaarsuvius' family. S/he needed to kill them all. That's the only way to keep his/her family safe, once one sapient revealed a plan to kill his/her family.

I love you.

hamishspence

2010-07-23, 08:09 AM

. Others may get squeamish about the action, but we're talking about hell-damned souls here: they know what you have to do when it's necessary.

Isn't the whole point of getting damned to the lower planes the fact that what they did wasn't necessary- that's why they became The Damned in the first place?

Defiant

2010-07-23, 11:05 AM

They're saying V started it by killing her son (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) in the first place.

The Dragon started this part by opting for, arguably, disproportionate retribution.

What the dragon "started" was threaten V's family with the worst fate possible, worse than death itself, over the death of the dragon's son. The dragon came and sought revenge because of the family ties. The dragon started the killing family members part; V just finished it.

Edit: Started the killing family members part because of own family members being killed - thus the only way to finish it is to kill all opposing family members

No, really?

V did nothing wrong when she killed the dragon's son. He had attacked the party, and she killed him out of self-defense. Nowhere in that story arc does the son ever give them a chance to live.

I'm not surprised at the actions of the momma dragon, though. After all, her kind is almost always evil, so wanting retribution towards an act that deserves none would be right up her alley.

You don't understand. Vaarsuvius didn't go nearly far enough. The world is still full of sapients, each of whom threatens Vaarsuvius' family. S/he needed to kill them all. That's the only way to keep his/her family safe, once one sapient revealed a plan to kill his/her family.

No. The dragon had sought ill will on V's family because of bloodline ties. This made it evident that any dragon within those bloodline ties might be a true threat. Yes, other dragons, and even some random goblin on the other side of the world, could all be potential threats. But not of the clear magnitude that had proved itself to V.

Isn't the whole point of getting damned to the lower planes the fact that what they did wasn't necessary- that's why they became The Damned in the first place?

Good doesn't work that way usually. Good usually forsakes its soldiers if they go too far in achieving Good. This is why my favourite characters to play are evil benevolents, who are evil simply because of the means they use to achieve the good, but they are still the driving force of good in the world.

Kish

2010-07-23, 11:12 AM

The dragon started the killing family members part; V just finished it.

Edit: Started the killing family members part because of own family members being killed - thus the only way to finish it is to kill all opposing family members
It is amusing that you apparently realized what you initially said was exactly wrong and, instead of considering the implications of the argument you had made, simply edited your post to claim another act was the relevant "starting point." Your sig seems, to my admittedly not-up-on-the-setting eyes, to clash with the preferences you just expressed.

Beyond that: The writer disagrees with your moral judgments, is the answer to why characters in the comic he writes behave in a manner incompatible with your concept of morality. See my previous post if you skimmed over it quickly enough to miss that part.

rewinn

2010-07-23, 11:18 AM

Again. You're assuming that was actually the primary goal of Vaarsuvius' plan. If the actual primary goal of his/her plan was, "Torture the dragon I just killed," then s/he achieved it perfectly. Pointing out that what s/he did was aimed at a goal other than the one you're insisting s/he had=/="saying maybe V made mistakes in his plans."

The evidence that we have concerning V's motives are V's words themselves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html).

"No-one will come to avenge your defeat. No-one will lament your passing. Think about the fate you have brought upon your family as you suffer in the afterlife. That - and no less - is the price of threatening my family."

In those words, there's room to argue motive: whether V is acting to preserve V's family from future attacks or punishing Momma or both. In real life, people act out of mixed motives and such messiness is part of what makes OOTS literature.

But it doesn't really matter what V's motive is or whether the spell accomplished, in practical terms, what V wanted to do, whether it was to protect family or inflict mental pain. If V described the spell accurately, then there is no saving throw.

Perhaps V mis-described the spell, out of ignorance or out of desire to increase Momma's suffering by lying about the possibility of revenge. This is unlike V's usual behavior, but V's not exactly playing with a full deck at this point.

It seems more likely that V is accurately describing the spell because it is exactly what is depicted: everyone hit with the zap is dead. There is NO evidence to the contrary.

Defiant

2010-07-23, 11:19 AM

It is amusing that you apparently realized what you initially said was exactly wrong and, instead of considering the implications of the argument you had made, simply edited your post to claim another act was the relevant "starting point."

V killing the family member was not a relevant starting point because she did nothing wrong when she killed him.

Beyond that: The writer disagrees with your moral judgments, is the answer to why characters in the comic he writes behave in a manner incompatible with your concept of morality. See my previous post if you skimmed over it quickly enough to miss that part.

Didn't miss it. Love the excerpt though. One day, when I'm rich, I will buy everything!

Your sig seems, to my admittedly not-up-on-the-setting eyes, to clash with the preferences you just expressed.

Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate?

LuPuWei

2010-07-23, 12:13 PM

V killing the family member was not a relevant starting point because she did nothing wrong when she killed him.

Counter-argument: The OotS had entered the Dragon's cave with an intent to steal. The crux of your argument lies on the assumption that monsters are monsters and have no right to life or property. We would surely, condemn the OotS if they had broken into a human home with the intent to rob, and killed the owner's child in the process. The baby Dragon attacked because it was defending its home- the OotS did not once try to reason with it when they were inside. The problem in the OotS verse and any D&D verse, philosophically, has been stated and overstated, that there are some races that are naturally predisposed towards evil- which is unnatural. In Rich's verse, these unnatural conditions are applied to very natural characters, and like any society with bad laws, things are fine until one wrong person has their toes stepped on, and then and only then do we realise how wrong things have been from the start.

Are dragon's Evil? Given that its the OotSverse, I would be reluctant to say so too quickly. If they are, what V did is right. If they aren't, V still has a lot of growing to do.

But then s/he is an elf :smalltongue:

derfenrirwolv

2010-07-23, 12:15 PM

Edit: Started the killing family members part because of own family members being killed - thus the only way to finish it is to kill all opposing family members

How contrived you have to make the sentence in order for it to be true is sort of the point.. the evil soul knows that V IS the one who started this.. and is trying to goad V on and soothe their conscience

V did nothing wrong when she killed the dragon's son. He had attacked the party, and she killed him out of self-defense. .

The Dragon was in his own home, the party was invading, and the dragon family had a history of poor encounters with roaving bands of armed adventurers.

Nowhere in that story arc does the son ever give them a chance to live

this is simply false. With V's case, the dragon was quite amiably chatting with him in lizard, V had every chance to live. MOre importantly for the party, V had the dragon under his control for an entire day and (with the way suggestion was allowed to work) and could have suggested that the dragon find some excuse to stay outside of the lair for a few hours. V did not. V considered the dragons life worthless and meaningless and thus killed him when it wasn't neccesary.

I'm not surprised at the actions of the momma dragon, though. After all, her kind is almost always evil, so wanting retribution towards an act that deserves none would be right up her alley.

What would have been wrong with Momma's actions if she had limited them to killing V, rather than extending them to V's family? Someone broke into her home and killed her son. She went to kill him. Thats wrong.... why? Because V is a PC race and thus entitled to more rights?

No. The dragon had sought ill will on V's family because of bloodline ties. This made it evident that any dragon within those bloodline ties might be a true threat

The chances of any of them doing that were remote, and V probably made the problem worse... not in the least by getting TIAMAT HERSELF on his*case, and also by not realizing that not all dragon relationships are through blood. The spell does nothing to kill the spouses of the dragons who were killed by the spell.

Moriarty

2010-07-23, 12:42 PM

Oh, well, that's what Vaarsuvius said s/he was doing? That trumps everything, especially your own pointing out how badly what s/he did suited his/her claimed purpose. It's not like Vaarsuvius only got into the soul splice in the first place by being fundamentally dishonest with himself/herself.

"It's not really that far-fetched" is an opinion; I disagree. :smalltongue:

grarf, all this ambigous gender typing is unnecesarily hard to read.

I'm not claiming V's logic to be flawless, but I do claim it at least is consistent.

While V was dishonest with himnself, he found an argumentation that at least made sense, the same is true for all his decisions during that story arc.
He clinged to his rationalisations throughout the whole splice, because as his logic is central to his beliefs, he NEEDED to have reasons to justify this actions, so it IS safe to assume the tools he used worked the way he said they were.

B.I.T.T.

2010-07-28, 05:02 PM

Did this somehow turn into a moral justification thread?

:smallconfused:

Niveus Candidus

2010-07-28, 05:51 PM

Did this somehow turn into a moral justification thread?

:smallconfused:

What on this forum does not turn into a morality question?

Lord Bingo

2010-07-28, 06:00 PM

Familicide was surely an awesome spell. While all of you are worried about saving throws I can't stop thinking about all the XP a quarter of a worlds population of black dragons and their various spawn are worth. Isn't V due for some serious levelling on that account?

Kish

2010-07-28, 06:15 PM

In D&D, you get XP for overcoming challenges. What challenge were the dragons Vaarsuvius murdered to him/her? Only an insane Santa Claus DM would give so much as one single experience point for killing anything, up to and including the gods themselves, by casting a spell which kills them instantly without them having any chance to defend themselves.

B. Dandelion

2010-07-28, 06:21 PM

Plus, the soul splices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) seriously nerfed any potential XP gain in the first place.

"You won't get any XP from anything you defeat while you're spliced."
"Well, you could, technically, but your effective level would be so high that its pretty unlikely."

Southern Cross

2010-07-28, 06:22 PM

And the IFCC explicitly said that V wouln't get any XP while spliced,too...

Detrinex

2010-07-28, 06:24 PM

If you're talking about the Empress, she's a red dragon. Plus, familicide only affects families or people with claims to them. There could be other black dragons if I missed seeing one anyways.

AlexanderRM

2010-07-28, 07:00 PM

Familicide doesn't really make that much sense anyway. If it works in two steps as per the literal interpretation of what V said would imply, then all Dragons (and other creatures) related to those directly related to those directly related to the mother Black dragon would be wanting revenge, so V would only have amplified the problem.

If it continues on from that indefinitely, to all dragons directly related to those killed by the spell, it would probably have wiped out all the black dragons, and as we saw half-dragons killed by it, it would logically have wiped out the non-dragon relatives of those dragons and thus their relatives, and have spread to other species and potentially exterminated all of them as well. Depending on... something or other it could potentially have wound up wiping out most of the species in the OOTSverse including the elves and possibly V him/her self.
Though I don't know about V's parents and siblings- if V's parents are no longer alive and any siblings he/she has have no children, V might survive, which brings up the way that this might work...

I suppose I could see bloodlines being isolated even if all black dragons are related, if all of the dragons who connect them to the dragons of the mother's bloodline are already dead. Given the long lifespans of the dragons, I doubt 3/4ths of dragons could be independently isolated, and I doubt (depending on exactly how many black dragons there are) large populations could be isolated that way, so... maybe this might work if there were geographical separations, so V wiped out the bloodlines of the northern continent but those of the southern and western continents were not directly connected? But I believe that we saw the tendril things going all over the world...

That got way too long. TL;DR, as I said at first, Familicide doesn't make much sense. If anyone wants to discuss the dynamics of bloodline isolation, be my guest.

SinsI

2010-07-28, 07:31 PM

If I had to make Familicide, I'd make it use a completely different mechanic:
1) Rise the corpse as a short-lived Spiritual undead apparition
2) Give it ability to quickly find/teleport to its blood relatives
3) Give it an ability to powerup as a result of killing them - by making a copy of itself, via a Vampiric -style ability, etc.
4) Order it to destroy its kin.

End result is the same, but DC is many times smaller.

In that case, some of the Black Dragons could get a chance to survive - if they defeat everything that was sent after them, or if they are shielded by a powerful Cloister-like spell. But nothing as stupid as saving throws.

Kish

2010-07-28, 08:47 PM

That got way too long. TL;DR, as I said at first, Familicide doesn't make much sense.
Again, it makes perfect sense. The anguish the ancient black dragon experienced was proof that it was extremely effective. It only doesn't make sense if you assume the intended goal for Vaarsuvius on casting the spell, and the intended goal for Haerta Bloodsoak, Destroyer of Hope, on designing the spell, was "prevent retaliation" rather than "torture defeated foes."

derfenrirwolv

2010-07-28, 11:02 PM

Familicide doesn't really make that much sense anyway. If it works in two steps as per the literal interpretation of what V said would imply, then all Dragons (and other creatures) related to those directly related to those directly related to the mother Black dragon would be wanting revenge, so V would only have amplified the problem.

It makes perfect sense in V's mind. You're right that it doesn't make sense though.

Two steps is about as close as people go and still consider someone a relative. Beyond that you have relationships like husband, wife, uncle, etc.. things that AREN"T based on blood. You are capable of seeing those as relationships, even for an evil black dragon. V, despite what should have been a very large anvil dropped on his head, does not. They are roaming chunks of XP who only value their offspring NOT people with hopes, dreams, and close bonds with the people around them.

If it continues on from that indefinitely, to all dragons directly related to those killed by the spell, it would probably have wiped out all the black dragons, and as we saw half-dragons killed by it, it would logically have wiped out the non-dragon relatives....

That got way too long. TL;DR, as I said at first, Familicide doesn't make much sense. If anyone wants to discuss the dynamics of bloodline isolation, be my guest.

So you find that convoluted logic diagram MORE simple than the idea that the spell works EXACTLY as V advertised? :smallwink:

Belsirk

2010-07-28, 11:57 PM

Familicide doesn't really make that much sense anyway. If it works in two steps as per the literal interpretation of what V said would imply, then all Dragons (and other creatures) related to those directly related to those directly related to the mother Black dragon would be wanting revenge, so V would only have amplified the problem.

Let see...
black dragon (not related): "Hey... i'm going to kill a creature who kill another dragon which i don't know who o where lived" (Because the dragon isn't related to him )

And honestly... WHO in his sane mind will chase SOMETHING that killed suddenly all the victim's relates?, or even better, how you will figure that your friend which was drinking the beer at side you die because another creature use Familicide?

After the oracle (or Tiamat or anyone who pass the info)... come again the first question: YEAH! i'm going to take revenge on something THAT erase all the blood related and those related to him? If that friend isn't Chuck Norris (or Bruce Lee) nop.. don't sound sane... at least all my PC's would say: "NAH! Next Beer please"

and remember the author of the spell it's called Destroyer of the Hope

I suppose I could see bloodlines being isolated even if all black dragons are related, if all of the dragons who connect them to the dragons of the mother's bloodline are already dead. Given the long lifespans of the dragons, I doubt 3/4ths of dragons could be independently isolated, and I doubt (depending on exactly how many black dragons there are) large populations could be isolated that way, so... maybe this might work if there were geographical separations, so V wiped out the bloodlines of the northern continent but those of the southern and western continents were not directly connected? But I believe that we saw the tendril things going all over the world...

Well... on this case for the giant... the one were affected are aprox 25% not 75%, at least later someone (on the comic) fix V's math, were only 25% without care if our math or doubts say other things

Souhiro

2010-07-29, 03:21 AM

I think that Rich just used the "Tin Seed": The spell does "Exactly What It Says On The Tin" and kill the family of the victim, and the relatives, and anyone who could track.

Just let Vaarsuvius try to sleep at the nights. He has his soul debt, Tiamat's wrath... and we don't know if Bad Karma tilts a paladin's "Evil Sense". So he's going to walk a painful path.

Kish

2010-07-29, 08:25 AM

After the oracle (or Tiamat or anyone who pass the info)... come again the first question: YEAH! i'm going to take revenge on something THAT erase all the blood related and those related to him? If that friend isn't Chuck Norris (or Bruce Lee) nop.. don't sound sane... at least all my PC's would say: "NAH! Next Beer please"
Whereas mine would say, "Hm, there's someone out there who is perfectly willing to commit mass murder on an astonishing scale of people who did nothing to him or her. Setting aside, for the moment, the fact that this sounds like a plot hook and therefore I would expect the DM to give me a Meaningful Look if I said stopping this maniac was someone else's problem, I'm, like everyone, clearly in mortal danger every second until someone does so. Considering the power demonstrated, I'd better strike with overwhelming force and make sure this Vaarsuvius has not one chance to retaliate."