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Ubercaledor
2010-07-20, 12:47 AM
I had a question RE: AoOs in 4e:
ANY Area/ranged power (or does it say attack? I should check that) causes an AoO, as does leaving a square threatened by a character, except where that movement is by a shift/slide or the threatening character has already had an AoO that round.

Does that sound about right?

Questions:

1- so any healing powers of "an ally within the burst (close burst 5)" would be an area/ranged attack and thus trigger an AoO?

2- Do skills such as "heal: stabilise the dying"?

3- What is the difference between a shift and a slide? Is it just that a slide is forced movement?

The other thing I was working on was having a lot of Kobolds in a battle, but it seems like it would frustrate the fighter because of their "shifty": Minor at-will can shift one square. So this means that they can pretty much avoid AoOs from the fighter, and shift up to 3 squares (forsaking their move) and still have a standard action?

cupkeyk
2010-07-20, 01:06 AM
1. There are four attack types by range: Melee, Close, Area and Ranged. Of the four only Area and Ranged provoke OA. Thus healing powers, at least most of them, do not provole OA as they are close powers. Check out Thunderwave, Close Blast.

2. Yes they do. When a dying creature recieves healing, like a heal check they are stabilized at the negative hp count they were in. If they recieved HP from a healing power, they go to zero first and recieve hit points from there either from their own surge value or in the rare case of true healing. So they are prone but ready to rejoin the fight.

3. A slide is forced movement in any direction. All forced movement do not provoke OA. A shift is a movement that does not provoke OA.

Yes, but a marked creature still provokes a fighter's combat supriority though even when it shifts but it eats up his immediate action.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-20, 01:34 AM
Maybe they can avoid AoO's... Maybe.

The fighter's melee basic attack from his mark still hurts a lot, though.

cupkeyk
2010-07-20, 01:45 AM
Yeah shifty is considered pretty powerful.; It was even mentioned by the designers when selecting MM races to be used for the player's handbooks. That said two shifts away from a fighter and them kobold sorcs can wreak havoc.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-20, 01:50 AM
I don't understand what the big hubbub is about. Sure, a kobold can shift twice out of the fighter's range and do a standard action. But he's still taking the same penalty that every other monster takes for shifting away from the fighter.

Maybe the flimsier melee classes will have to play a bit more carefully, but from the fighter's perspective, isn't it all the same?

cupkeyk
2010-07-20, 01:52 AM
The thing with kobolds is that they are spellcasters. They can usually include the fighter in their blast. Flavorwise, they aren't even suited for melee. They will run and attack from cover. Its awesome.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-20, 03:50 AM
(1) a "close" power is not considered a ranged or area attack, and therefore does not provoke.

(2) by RAW, only ranged attacks, area attacks, and certain kinds of movement provoke opportunity attacks, so skill usage does not. PHB page 290.

(3) the difference is, indeed, that a slide is forced movement. You shift yourself, you slide other people.

Colmarr
2010-07-20, 05:52 AM
I had a question RE: AoOs in 4e:
ANY Area/ranged power (or does it say attack? I should check that) causes an AoO

I'm sure Kurald will correct me if I'm wrong, but using a ranged power provokes OAs, even if that power isn't an attack.

For example, Bastion of Health (cleric, level 6) is a ranged heal. If my cleric uses it while adjacent to an enemy, he provokes an OA.

Edit: PHB, p 290: "If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power..."

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-20, 06:02 AM
Yes, but page 56 differentiates between "melee," "ranged," "area," and "close."

Colmarr
2010-07-20, 06:04 AM
Yes, but page 56 differentiates between "melee," "ranged," "area," and "close."

Was that directed at me? I didn't say anything about melee, ranged, area or close.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-20, 06:06 AM
Oh yeah, I misread your post. >_>

Excession
2010-07-20, 06:36 AM
There is one type of Kobold that I just discovered is rather fun in melee, and still gets to use it's shifty power to good effect.

The Kobold Piker (from the Dragon Annual 2009, or Dragon 364). It gains a +4 bonus to damage if it "readies an action to make a melee basic attack against a foe that enters a square adjacent to it". So each round, they shift and move away, then set their pikes and wait. Great support for those mobile Kobold casters, as running into a couple of 1d10+7 attacks will make your melee types think twice.

Ubercaledor
2010-07-20, 10:27 PM
Ok, thanks guys- very helpful :)

My issue is with Kobold minions, I was planning on making heavy use of them (as it's a level 1 party), but the fighter can't mark them unless he hits (and kills) them first, so that's where the frustration comes in.

EDIT: though on my playtests, they're FANTASTIC targets for the wizard's area-attacks :D

Loren
2010-07-20, 10:51 PM
2) work out what that would look like in RL. As a First Aider and Life Guard I gotta tell you, stopping a life threatening bleed A) will take longer than 1 round and B) it will absorb the care givers complete attention. Consequently, I'd consider it as provoking an AoO regardless of what may or may not be written. Common sense should always trump editors.

cupkeyk
2010-07-20, 10:52 PM
A fighter needs not hit a creature to mark it, just attack it. He then gets his wis bonus to hit it later, improving his chance to hit it and with regards to the kobold minions, kill it.

EDIT: I will correct myself. There is no bonus to hit with combat supriority, it only applies to combat challenge. Oh well.

mobdrazhar
2010-07-20, 10:59 PM
My issue is with Kobold minions, I was planning on making heavy use of them (as it's a level 1 party), but the fighter can't mark them unless he hits (and kills) them first, so that's where the frustration comes in.


wrong... the fighter marks them regardless of if he hits or misses

EDIT: ninja'd

NecroRebel
2010-07-20, 11:06 PM
A fighter needs not hit a creature to mark it, just attack it. He then gets his wis bonus to hit it later, improving his chance to hit it and with regards to the kobold minions, kill it.

Partially right, but mostly wrong; a Fighter indeed needs not hit a creature to mark it. However, the Wis-to-hit affects only opportunity attacks, and affects all opportunity attacks by the Fighter, not just those against a marked target. In addition, the Combat Challenge (marking) class feature does not allow the Fighter to make opportunity attacks against shifting marked targets, but rather lets them make a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt, which is an entirely different thing. In fact, it's possible (though something of a bad idea) to give up the Combat Superiority (Wis-to-hit-on-opportunity-attacks) feature, which is entirely seperate from the Combat Challenge feature, for other features.

The extra attack on a shift can improve the Fighter's chance to kill a minion, but only one immediate action can be taken per round, unlike opportunity actions, so no more than one minion shifty-ing away from the Fighter is so threatened.

cupkeyk
2010-07-20, 11:06 PM
Partially right, but mostly wrong; a Fighter indeed needs not hit a creature to mark it. However, the Wis-to-hit affects only opportunity attacks, and affects all opportunity attacks by the Fighter, not just those against a marked target. In addition, the Combat Challenge (marking) class feature does not allow the Fighter to make opportunity attacks against shifting marked targets, but rather lets them make a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt, which is an entirely different thing. In fact, it's possible (though something of a bad idea) to give up the Combat Superiority (Wis-to-hit-on-opportunity-attacks) feature, which is entirely seperate from the Combat Challenge feature, for other features.

The extra attack on a shift can improve the Fighter's chance to kill a minion, but only one immediate action can be taken per round, unlike opportunity actions, so no more than one minion shifty-ing away from the Fighter is so threatened.

I corrected myself before you could. LOLz

Edit for more substance: I have been playing fighter for two years now and At low levels Reaping strike works wonders with minions; and if you have higher AB, Cleave.

But later on, You AB tends to overtake monster AC anyway. MY level 11 fighter misses OA on a 4 (with impaling spear :D) so I swapped out Reaping strike for Threatening Rush so I can spread my marking around.

NecroRebel
2010-07-20, 11:08 PM
I corrected myself before you could. LOLz

No, I corrected you before you corrected yourself... I just corrected you less than a minute before you corrected you :smalltongue:

cupkeyk
2010-07-20, 11:15 PM
No, I corrected you before you corrected yourself... I just corrected you less than a minute before you corrected you :smalltongue:

Hmmmn, unfortunately the timestamp cannot prove either of us to be correct. Hahahah

NecroRebel
2010-07-20, 11:18 PM
Hmmmn, unfortunately the timestamp cannot prove either of us to be correct. Hahahah

True enough. I just distinctly remember posting my post, then looking to see if you might have edited your post, and seeing that you hadn't. So while you were probably in the process of editing it at that time, you hadn't technically corrected yourself yet.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Despite the lack of all evidence either way.

TheOOB
2010-07-21, 12:32 AM
Important difference between a shift and a slide, several abilities trigger attacks on people who shift, but not people who slide

Ubercaledor
2010-07-21, 09:33 PM
My mistake!