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View Full Version : [3.5] I borked the rules again...(cause grappling wasn't complicated enough)



Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 01:18 AM
So, I was going through the grapple rules again for my Tashalatoran grappler, and came across an interesting conundrum in the rules for pinning a foe.


If You’re Pinning an Opponent
You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.

So...I'm grappling a foe and spend an attack action, either as part of a full attack (if I have the BAB for that), or as a standard action, and now I've established a pin. Oh goody, now I can drag this poor loser over to the side of a cliff and throw him off. So...I look up the rules for moving a grapple, as outlined above.

Move
You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.
Oh, bummer. It takes a standard action to move my pinned foe. Oh well, I'll do that next round, cause he'll still be pinned, right? Wrong.

Pin Your Opponent
You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
So...it takes at least a standard action to pin someone, and it takes at least a standard action to move someone who's pinned, but the pin only lasts for 1 round, so I can't even use 2 subsequent turns to move my pinned foe.

Unless I'm a Factotum, a Choaker, or happen to be wearing a Belt of Battle, that Note text under Move is pretty much wasted ink? Or is someone seeing something here that I'm not? I mean, I know that 3.5 is full of holes, but this one is so big you could drive a bus through it. Sideways.

gallagher
2010-07-20, 01:28 AM
i never payed attention to that rule. i actually would give someone a penalty to escape the grapple when pinned

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 01:33 AM
There is a penalty...its called having to make 2 successive successful grapple checks. One to break the pin, and one to break the grapple. Thats most of the appeal of pinning someone. I think the fact that a pin "wears off" after one round is kinda bogus, in light of the other rules concerning grappling. If a person wants to get un-pinned, then they should have to fight their way out of it with rolls, not defaulting to "ding, pin's over".

Aroka
2010-07-20, 02:20 AM
The grappling rules are a terrifying mess of nonsense and weird questions. (Improved Grab/Constrict/Rake, how does it work!?)

I think I've always played pins as being indefinite in duration; after establishing a pin, you get more options for what to do with your grapple check, and your opponent has to make two checks to get free (and you get the chance to re-establish the pin in between).

Curmudgeon
2010-07-20, 04:12 AM
Unless I'm a Factotum, a Choaker, or happen to be wearing a Belt of Battle, that Note text under Move is pretty much wasted ink? Or is someone seeing something here that I'm not?
You're overlooking a couple of possibilities. One is that there may be more than 2 parties involved in the grapple. You don't have to do both the pinning and moving in the same round. Someone else can pin the opponent, and you can move the whole grappling mass. Or you can pin your opponent, and an ally can move you all.

If you don't have help you can either pin your opponent (no movement) or move with your opponent (no pinning). But sometimes the opponent is the one helping you! You see, you're also confusing an attack (required to pin someone) with a standard action. There are various ways of getting an attack that don't involve a standard action. Your opponent may decide to try to cast a spell or take some other provoking action while in the grapple, for instance; then you can pin them with your AoO. That's the most likely scenario for this:
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Absent AoOs, bonus attacks, or special abilities, one other possibility is someone else could pin the opponent, then leave the grapple before the round is up (by dying, say) so only you and the opponent are left. A pin lasts for 1 round even if the pinner doesn't.

Aroka
2010-07-20, 04:35 AM
Your opponent may decide to try to cast a spell or take some other provoking action while in the grapple, for instance; then you can pin them with your AoO.

How do you get an AoO in a grapple? If you're grappling, you don't threaten anything. Is there some special provision I'm not aware of?

Bonus attacks seems pretty weird, too. Would they really intentionally design a mechanic (inside a generally broken and badly-designed mechanic, at that) where the only way to use an option is with a rare bonus attack? How many core sources for bonus attacks that don't require taking even a standard action are there, anyway?

Peregrine
2010-07-20, 05:23 AM
That "1 round" thing on pins always bugged the heck out of me too, and I'm pretty sure there are other things I've seen that are impossible or otherwise broken as a result.

I think the only way to make sense of it is to assume that the writer meant, "When you pin someone, they are held immobile for at least the next 1 round -- because they can't escape your pin and move on the same turn". The state of pinning/being pinned does not automatically end.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-20, 08:54 AM
How do you get an AoO in a grapple? If you're grappling, you don't threaten anything. Is there some special provision I'm not aware of?
No, that's my memory error. I had thought you didn't threaten any other squares while grappling, but that's incorrect. So the AoO is out in most cases. Something like a combination of Ranged Threat (Dragon # 350) and Ranged Pin (Complete Warrior), where you pin someone's clothing with a missile, might allow you to move a foe you've pinned on an AoO.

Person_Man
2010-07-20, 09:14 AM
Moving a Grappled enemy doesn't require that they be pinned. (At least not according to the Rules Compendium). It just requires that they be Grappled.

Also, a Grapple could have more then one person involved. So it's possible for a pinned enemy to be moved if 2 or more people are working together.

kjones
2010-07-20, 09:31 AM
Moving a Grappled enemy doesn't require that they be pinned. (At least not according to the Rules Compendium). It just requires that they be Grappled.

This is always how I've played it. It is a little annoying, though, that it is very hard for, say, a dragon to swoop down, grab someone, and fly off, since they can only move with a standard action.

Psyx
2010-07-20, 09:35 AM
^ Dragon needs fly-by attack then!

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 09:39 AM
Well, in fairness, most dragons who grab people use Snatch, which allows you to take a -20 penalty to be treated as non-grappling. Since you aren't grappling, you can move as you wish, including completing your Fly-by Attack.

And I know you don't have to pin a fool to move him, but you do get a +4 bonus to move him when you pin him, and yet its nearly impossible to do both at the same time, Curmudgeon's overly complicated example of multigrapple-and-release not withstanding.

kjones
2010-07-20, 09:44 AM
Well, in fairness, most dragons who grab people use Snatch, which allows you to take a -20 penalty to be treated as non-grappling. Since you aren't grappling, you can move as you wish, including completing your Fly-by Attack.

And I know you don't have to pin a fool to move him, but you do get a +4 bonus to move him when you pin him, and yet its nearly impossible to do both at the same time, Curmudgeon's overly complicated example of multigrapple-and-release not withstanding.

Somehow, I've never read about the Snatch ability. Thanks!

As for the pin-and-move, it probably makes sense to have a pin last until broken, without needing another check each round... inasmuch as anything in the grappling rules makes any sense whatso-goddamn-ever (that is to say, not at all).

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-20, 09:48 AM
That makes even less sense then anything else! What are you going to do, gently push him with an arrow from 30ft away?

EDT: Very ninja'd, talking about ranged pin sillyness.

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 10:00 AM
I would assume one of the following:

1) The 1-round pin lasts until the end of your next turn, allowing you to do both; or

2) Specific trumps general. In general moving a grappled opponent is a standard action; the specific text on pinning an opponent specifically offers moving a pinned opponent as an option, so you can go ahead and do it (presumably by making a grapple check (as the next part of your full attack) as per the first line of the text that gives the options for pinning).

Either way the rules clearly intend for you to be able to move a pinned opponent so pick one of these two options and houserule it in.

ap

Person_Man
2010-07-20, 10:54 AM
And I know you don't have to pin a fool to move him, but you do get a +4 bonus to move him when you pin him, and yet its nearly impossible to do both at the same time, Curmudgeon's overly complicated example of multigrapple-and-release not withstanding.

You get a +4 bonus to move an enemy when he is pinned, not just when you pin him. Thus if someone else pins him while you are both grappling him, you get a bonus to move him. Otherwise, the bonus doesn't apply without a house rule.

It's not quite as bad as the Overrun rules, which are impossible to use. But it's close.

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 10:59 AM
Ah, but Person_Man, you ONLY get the +4 bonus to move a pinned opponent provided you and he are the only people in the grapple.


Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.
Quoted again for emphasis. If someone else pins your foe, and you attempt to move the grapple, you don't get the bonus to move the grapple because there is someone else involved in the grapple (the guy doing the pinning).

Its impossible to claim the +4 bonus unless you have some way of gaining extra standard actions. Another way that I forgot about is WRT. If someone WRTed you after your turn, and you had your opponent pinned, you could drag them somewhere with your WRT turn, since a full turn hasn't passed.

tbarrie
2010-07-20, 12:01 PM
Pinning and moving your foe both require the equivalent of an attack, not a standard action. To do what you want, you need a Base Attack Bonus of +6 or higher.

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 12:04 PM
Check again.

Move
You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
Bolded for emphasis. Moving an opponent is a Standard action. If it was an attack action, someone with a 16+ BAB could potentially move a foe 4 times, the equivalent of a double move by someone not grappling.

EDIT: Can you voluntarily fail a grapple check? If I'm grappling with my buddy Bob the Fighter, and we are both hanging onto an orc, by the rules, I have to beat the orc AND Bob's grapple rolls with my roll to move the grapple. Of cource the orc is gonna resist, but Bob probably wouldn't. Can Bob just choose to fail his check to resist moving the grapple?

Curmudgeon
2010-07-20, 12:12 PM
EDIT: Can you voluntarily fail a grapple check? If I'm grappling with my buddy Bob the Fighter, and we are both hanging onto an orc, by the rules, I have to beat the orc AND Bob's grapple rolls with my roll to move the grapple. Of cource the orc is gonna resist, but Bob probably wouldn't. Can Bob just choose to fail his check to resist moving the grapple?Doesn't look like it.
Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
There's no player input into this.

Peregrine
2010-07-20, 12:27 PM
Doesn't look like it. There's no player input into this.

Its absence there isn't definitive proof. There are several bits that suggest that characters in the grapple don't have to make a grapple check if they don't want to oppose you (subtly different to voluntarily failing the check). For instance, under "Escape from grapple", it says:
(Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) And when you're pinning, "You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action". These aren't iron-clad proof, but they're a precedent in the rules for the very logical conclusion that yeah, you can choose not to oppose your buddy's grapple check.

Person_Man
2010-07-20, 04:08 PM
Ah, but Person_Man, you ONLY get the +4 bonus to move a pinned opponent provided you and he are the only people in the grapple.


Hmmm, right you are. So I guess it's essentially a meaningless rule that no one will every use without action juggling.

I'm not a huge fan of 4E, but at least they had the intelligence to eliminate this stupidity.