Fellow DMs I need help!

[BendakStarkiler]

Hey guys! I need your help, this question is mainly for fellow DMs but Players feel free to chime in.

Ok, so I have been running a 3.5 D&D game in my campaign world (homebrewed) for three different groups of PC, not at the same time mind you over about 3 years. The PC have all left their mark on the world and changed it a lot. My question is this, should I be loyal to the world that I and the PC before me have created, or should I be fair to my current group of PCs?

What is comes down to in specifics is this, my current group of PCs there are 6 of them (I know the size is killing me) who are average level of 8, but are well oped and equipped so hit hard. Over the course of their gaming that have killed a number of BBG underlings of the BBEG, ruined many of the BBEG plans and actually cut off the left hand of the BBEG before he fled.

The BBEG is actually a PC from on of the other parties that played in the world before (Long Story). At this point rather then fight the party in a straight up open combat I know that my BBEG would simply send three or so assassins (rouges) to ambush the party cleric epic fast healer while hes off by himself. This would lessen the parties ability to stand and fight making them much easier to kill.

I am just conflicted because in terms of D&D doing that, targeting a single player with almost certain death, seems unfair but that is what the Big Bad Evil Guy would do so I feel stuck. What do you guys think?

Thanks!

[Yora]

Just removing one PC from the battles because he makes the party powerfull seems like a pretty low move.
I am all for playing it rough with a party of powerful PCs, but I don't put them in situations they can not win or escape by using my unlimited resources as a dm. That seems just cheap.

You could make the assassins make some ambushes and attempt to attack the party unprepared, but I really wouldn't single out a single character and take him out. What's the players supposed to do then?
It might be a smart move for the villain, but this is a case in which playing the villain that smart does not seem like an option.

[Telonius]

This 8th-level Cleric... does he have friends? People from the home temple? Especially with a Cleric, somebody higher up in the order (or even a lower-level friend from way back) might well "check up" on him once in awhile with a Divination or two. A couple of warnings to the effect of "Watch your back" or "A powerful enemy is plotting against you" will at least alert him to the fact that he's in imminent danger.

[Megaduck]

I am just conflicted because in terms of D&D doing that, targeting a single player with almost certain death, seems unfair but that is what the Big Bad Evil Guy would do so I feel stuck. What do you guys think?


I think targeting a single party member is an awesome idea as long as that player doesn't die.

There's nothing to say Assassins can't make mistakes that (Oh so accidentally) give the target a chance.

If you remember in Indiana Jones the only thing that saves Indy from the poisoned dates is that a monkey was hungry and ate them. It's death gave Indy the Clue.

As long as you keep it 'Fair' your players shouldn't mind.

[Earthwalker]

Having this as a plan seems fine, as long the players have a chance to keep the characters alive.

How are the Rogues going to attack the cleric on his own ? How do they know where he is, and how many people are with him.

If they are following the group to notice when the cleric leaves then the party might spot them. Are they scrying, again this might be spotted.

Give the players a chance to react to this, killing a cleric out right with no chance does seem a little over the top.

You can have the bad guy plan properly but still give the PCs a chance.

[Emmerask]

It really depends on your players and what kind of playstyle they like.
If they like the against all odds that monster may have killed half our party but we still won, that was an awesome session approach, then sure go for the kill and next time they might be more hesitant to split the party (or let one wander alone).
If the heroic "I came, I saw, I conquered" approach is more to their liking and they get discouraged if one of their party is killed then don´t do it :smallwink:


All in all you should accommodate your new groups likings even if it means changing the behavior of a previous pc but if this now means killing the pc or not I can´t say because it depends on your new group ^^

[Voshkod]

Have the assassins attack the lone cleric. Make it dramatic. Let the cleric have a big, tense, fight scene, and make it look like he's going to be killed. Then let other members of the party stumble onto the scene. The assassins have miscalculated, they thought the rest of the party was more distant. The cleric gets a nice bit of excitment, the rest of the party gets to repay the cleric for all the times he's saved their butts with timely heals.

[braxsus]

I have no problem having NPC's target single PC's like this if that is what the NPC would do..make it more fun in my mind

a DM's unlimited resources does mean NPC's have unlimted resources
You mentioned the BBEG fled..with a missing hand.so he's on the run and injured? Does he have the resources, or even access to the resources to higher assasins? Would he use resources on his healing first?
Just like PC's resources are itemized, NPC's should be as well..
On the other hand, lets say the BBEG is wealthy, powerful, replenisihing income (Land owner, Lord, Guild leader, stashed hoarde of $$ etc)

On the other hand, I would offer a compromise, just don't send assasins..
Throw some intrigue into it, perhpas side quests..
Some Ideas:
The Cleric's family is being threatened..he is to leave the party, or else..
The Cleric's family member has been kidnapped...leave the party..(possible side quest /solo to save them)
The Cleric is framed for a murder he did not commit...local law after him..

Instead of asassins, send bounty hunters to capture him.
Reasons to capture instead of kill:
Cleric is fundamental in getting an itmer, performing a ritual,
Has knowledge BBEG needs,
Leverage over party to get knowledge party has
Leverage over party for them to perform task..perhaps without them knowing its actually the BBEG behind the scenes)
Good old sadistic fun of it

[potatocubed]

It really depends on your players and what kind of playstyle they like.

If they like the against all odds that monster may have killed half our party but we still won, that was an awesome session approach, then sure go for the kill and next time they might be more hesitant to split the party (or let one wander alone).

If the heroic "I came, I saw, I conquered" approach is more to their liking and they get discouraged if one of their party is killed then don´t do it :smallwink:

This is probably the best answer you're going to get.

Personally, I would stage the attack and let the cleric fight or die as they may - if the characters don't have a handy retreat option in case they get in over their heads, then they've probably been having it too easy. One-shot items of dimension door or some other 'flee!' spell are cheap enough.

Plus, if they're optimisers, you'd better believe they'll be scry-and-die-ing the bad guys the moment they have the ability to do so. Turnabout is fair play.

[Dr Bwaa]

Totally fair. I go in for realism in my games (note: I mean REALISM, not "oh the PCs did something unexpected but obviously the BBEG would have thought of it and prepared for it so I'll let him have contingencies on-the-fly" which is just obnoxious to the players (sorry; not implying that you are doing this; I just have a DM who does this quite a lot so I'm sensitive :smallsigh:)); if the BBEG identifies a threat, it seems reasonable that he'd go try to take it out. Don't be unfair about it (they are The PCs™ after all), but a maneuver like this is A-OK in my book (and should frankly make the cleric happy, since he is evidently deemed the biggest threat by the BBEG).

[Psyx]

I'd have no problem targeting the cleric.

If they know they have annoyed a BBEG, then why is one of the party wandering around on his own? It's clearly not a clever thing to do, and any worthy foe will exploit that.

If you feel bad about killing him, then don't. just fire a shot across his bows, to make them more cautious. But I'd go for it.

Same thing happened in one of my games: The party had suffered at least 8 assassination attempts, got to Kyoto, and got into their routine of 'doing their own thing', which involved the senior PC going to a dojo every day to train, while the rest of his party got wrapped up in their own thing and let him go alone. It happened enough times to be obvious, no precautions were taken, so I put a ninja on a rooftop with a musket and shot the PC in the head. He survived, but only via some rather lucky dice rolls. The lesson was learned.

[Vangor]

The BBEG is actually a PC from on of the other parties that played in the world before (Long Story). At this point rather then fight the party in a straight up open combat I know that my BBEG would simply send three or so assassins (rouges) to ambush the party cleric epic fast healer while hes off by himself. This would lessen the parties ability to stand and fight making them much easier to kill.

I suppose my first question is why is the Cleric by himself without minimal escape/rescue contingencies? I mean, they hacked the hand off the BBEG after foiling many plans. They have clearly made an enemy of a being with resources.

[Radar]

As the BBEG i would play it out differently. If you just take the cleric out, rest of the party will sitll have time to adjust (find another cleric and some more backup - very likely, if they have contact with the supervisors of their fallen comrade).
So, the BBEG has seen the PCs personaly in a fight and had an opportunity to assess their capabilities (all those fights with his minions might have given him additional clues as well). Now he has more or less enough information to lay a trap for the PCs taylored to counter their regular tactics. This way he has a chance of taking them out in one go and doesn't give them time to prepare for a new situation.
One of the perks of being a BBEG is that you are the active side and the heroes have to react to your moves.

[Emmerask]

How about taking hostage the cleric then shapechanging/ disguising an evil cleric minion that replaces said cleric :smallbiggrin:
If executed well the bbeg gets tons of information and during an especially hard encounter the cleric will turn on them :smallamused:

The cleric player still plays the now evil cleric but might slip some clues here and there. Ask said player if he is cool with the idea and willing to play his part in it. If the players get the clues they can still rescue their player (nice side quest incoming :smallwink:)

[BendakStarkiler]

Wow great responses guys! Thanks. It seems that most of you want more info so I will explain a bit more.

Involved in a major war between the country of Lan-ill and the BBEG's horde of darkness. They are from a smaller country that in exchange for recognition as a country have been conscripted to fight in the army. This has all come to a head in a large field battle across a major river.

Side note on the BBEG he is complicated but understand that the loss of his hand was a direct result of his underestimation of the PCs, and his continued missing of is hand is a result of no longer being able to receive normal healing spells because of his being possessed. He is about a hubris and vengeful as a person can be and has access to a horde of nasties including humans and monsters.

During the night the party came in unexpectedly from behind enemy lines and destroyed a hilltop catapult emplacement, before joining up with the main army. The BBEG knows it was them and now knows they are part of the army.

The Cleric has modded and feated himself to have the ability to touch someone who is injured below half there health and heal them 12 point, basically he can now keep Lan-ill army a float through the battle. But he keeps leaving the parties plotting meetings to go heal the wounded. Which would be the perfect time for the BBEG's human spys to attack. I think thats what I'm gonna do. Make it a CR about 2 higher them his and the wounded soldier around may do their best to come to his aid.

Thanks again Playgrounders!

[kestrel404]

Here's what I would do:
1. Take the player aside. Ask him if he would be OK with playing an NPC for a few sessions. Assure him that, no matter what it seems like, you're not killing off his character. Do not explain beyond this, and ask that he not even let this much on to the party.
2. In a scene in the next game, have the rouge ambush. Play out a couple of rounds of combat. End it with a sneak attack when he's taken 'enough' damage (fudge the last roll). Fade to black, the other party members may find the blood stains and some telling gear (he would never leave behind his travel cloak!), but no body and all of the essential gear is gone.
3. Hand the player an NPC. Optimize like crazy, use a broken build. He's not going to be keeping it very long, anyway. Attempt to use a known-quantity NPC, one who has been helpful to the party in the past. Someone they'll trust immediately after they offer help to replace their missing friend. He should show up on his own, without the party going to look for him.
4. Go to the final battle. Once at the end of the dungeon, in the presence of the BBEG, have the BBEG make his speach or whatever, and meanwhile have the new NPC quietly betray the party. Do something that puts them at a significant disadvantage for the battle. Take the character away from the cleric's player.
5. Run two rounds of combat.
6. Hand the cleric his character back. He's got two rounds for self-buffs if he wants them. He shows up, with himself and another powerful former PC (from previously run game) as re-inforcements.
7. Profit.

Hope that helps.