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View Full Version : Actually Not All That Horrible Trap-monkey Swordsage [3.5]



Karsh
2010-07-20, 11:10 AM
I tried a few days ago to see if there was a way that I could make a Swordsage that also had trapfinding without being too incredibly hindered. What I ended up was something much more interesting than I anticipated, a trap-monkey mage slayer.

Human Ranger 2/Swordsage X (PRC if you want, I didn't.)

DEX>WIS>INT>CON>STR/CHA>CHA/STR

At 1st level, take the Trap Hunter ACF from Dungeonscape to trade out Track for Trapfinding and get Disable Device as a class skill. Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage) is a decent choice if you want to pick up some of the Mage Slayer feats, but it's not essential to being both awesome and the trap monkey. Your feats should be Able Learner and Weapon Finesse. If your DM allows flaws, take one (Unreactive is a good one since your DEX will be so high, as well as having Quick to Act) and take Tactile Trapsmith with that feat. Otherwise take it at 3rd level.

Go TWF with your second Ranger level, and then switch to Swordsage. Put max ranks in Search and Disable Device, as well as Open Lock (CC ranks, but only 1 skill point per rank thanks to Able Learner).

Tactile Trapsmith switches your DEX modifier for your INT on Search and Disable Device checks, which synergizes nicely with the TWF-Weapon Finesse-Shadow Blade combo Swordsages love so much.

Pump DEX at every level, and you have an excellent trap-monkey who can do some sneak attack while also Comet Throwing enemies around the battlefield. Who needs a rogue when you can have a martial adept do their job just as well?

Open Lock lags a little bit, but Masterwork Thieves' Tools + a Lockpicking Ring gets you a +7, not to mention that it's already DEX-based, which should be your highest stat.

The beauty in this is that since you get Disable Device and Search as class skills at 1st level, their cap is permanently HD+3. Thanks to Able Learner, you only have to spend one skill point on them, making it as though any class skill you've ever had is always a class skill.

Sindri
2010-07-20, 11:15 AM
Dang it, I just finished saying in another thread that Swordsage didn't replace rogue, and now you've gone and made this.

Caphi
2010-07-20, 11:15 AM
Swordsage still does less DPR than a good TWF rogue, unless you never get to flank. You're taking a bunch of feats and a dip just to get to par with trapfinding, when there are other things swordsages can be capitalizing on. I like the swordsage, I really do, but it's not a good replacement for a rogue.

imperialspectre
2010-07-20, 11:18 AM
Swordsage is vastly more survivable than Rogue and gets to inflict status conditions and do damage without a full attack. Additionally, DPR isn't that far behind when you grab Assassin's Stance, Craven, and get extra attacks with your Swordsage maneuvers.

Karsh
2010-07-20, 11:23 AM
In a pitched battle, sure. Rogues do more damage. But that's if you pray that the bad guys aren't moving around much. Swordsages have Pouncing Charge, Shadow Jaunt, Sudden Leap, Mirrored Pursuit, and the like to make sure they still get in their full attacks, but if they aren't feeling like it, they can just move and use a maneuver that does more than respectable damage.

The character I built with this is flavored as a Renegade Hunter in the Dragonlance setting, so he also has some Mage Slayer feats and uses Shadow Jaunt and Mirrored Pursuit to lock down enemy casters. It's at least theoretically very effective. You can't cast without provoking an AOO, you can't move away because he'll counter and follow you, and if you stay still you get to get Girallon Windmill Flesh Ripped or Dancing/Raging Mongoosed next turn.

Caphi
2010-07-20, 11:34 AM
In a pitched battle, sure. Rogues do more damage. But that's if you pray that the bad guys aren't moving around much. Swordsages have Pouncing Charge, Shadow Jaunt, Sudden Leap, Mirrored Pursuit, and the like to make sure they still get in their full attacks, but if they aren't feeling like it, they can just move and use a maneuver that does more than respectable damage.

Nitpick: Shadow Jaunt is a standard action, and Shadow Stride is a move. To full attack, you need Shadow Blink, which is somewhere up around level 7 or 8.

All I'm saying is, if you want to be a trap monkey, you could be a rogue, or if you want tech as well, you be a beguiler. Swordsages occupy a different niche, and don't really benefit from being stuffed into the crawler role. Besides, no one will judge you for being a rogue with one or two swordsage splashes. 5 and 8 gets you some great maneuvers that synergize with rogue abilities, including Assassin's Stance.

Karsh
2010-07-20, 11:45 AM
Ok, my bad, I couldn't remember which was which. In any event, Sudden Leap is a 1st level maneuver that is at least superior to a 5 foot step. I'm curious as to what you lose with that one initiator level aside from the Dual Boost ability.

What can a Swordsage 20 do that a Trap Hunter Ranger 2/Swordsage 18 can't?

gallagher
2010-07-20, 11:48 AM
Nitpick: Shadow Jaunt is a standard action, and Shadow Stride is a move. To full attack, you need Shadow Blink, which is somewhere up around level 7 or 8.

All I'm saying is, if you want to be a trap monkey, you could be a rogue, or if you want tech as well, you be a beguiler. Swordsages occupy a different niche, and don't really benefit from being stuffed into the crawler role. Besides, no one will judge you for being a rogue with one or two swordsage splashes. 5 and 8 gets you some great maneuvers that synergize with rogue abilities, including Assassin's Stance.
rogues also dip well with warblades, the INT synergy can be shocking at times

Caphi
2010-07-20, 11:52 AM
Ok, my bad, I couldn't remember which was which. In any event, Sudden Leap is a 1st level maneuver that is at least superior to a 5 foot step. I'm curious as to what you lose with that one initiator level aside from the Dual Boost ability.

What can a Swordsage 20 do that a Trap Hunter Ranger 2/Swordsage 18 can't?

Not much. It's about as valid a build, and the swordsage and ranger have skillsets that match up very nicely. I'm wondering why you want to make the whole thing act like a different class, though. A rogue or rogue/swordsage would do the same job more elegantly and lose very little unless you really really want to cap Survival, which you don't, because you're trying to emulate a rogue.

gallagher
2010-07-20, 11:54 AM
Ok, my bad, I couldn't remember which was which. In any event, Sudden Leap is a 1st level maneuver that is at least superior to a 5 foot step. I'm curious as to what you lose with that one initiator level aside from the Dual Boost ability.

What can a Swordsage 20 do that a Trap Hunter Ranger 2/Swordsage 18 can't?

your swordsage build is actually probably better in combat, which is what alot of people look at as far as an effective character goes. wis to AC which might not be much at first but with a little boosting can be effective, shadow hand gives you some miss chances, and you have more options to hit people, including always being able to flank when you have an ally next to you...

i think rogues just are better at being the sneak thief guy because their entire class is based around it. the tricks and such that they get are similar to things you can do with swordsage, though.

i guess its a matter of taste