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taltamir
2010-07-20, 12:57 PM
I want to make a list of spells that break worlds or plots when used as intended. What do I mean by that? no shady rule interpretations (aka, negative spell level adjustment, infinite spells via arcane fusion and negative spell level adjustment, etc), no combining spells with other abilities or spells, and no thinking outside the box...

let me give some examples... shrink item can be used to shrink a whole bunch of boulders, a forest fire, etc... put lots of those in a bag of holding... now, fly above a city... turn the bag of holding upside down... the city has been obliterated. nuclear weapon equivalent damage made cheap and easy.

this is thinking outside the box, this is far too creative and most likely no the intended use of shrink item.

on the other hand, teleport... teleport lets you quickly go anywhere in the world you want. Escape danger, jump into the bedroom of your enemy, finish up a hard day of fighting the forces of darkness not by setting camp, but by teleporting back to your luxurious mansion (forget rope trick :P)... this spell is campaign breaking if used exactly as intended.

another spell, rope trick... it is meant to provide an impregnable safe resting spot... this spell, used exactly as intended with 0 outside the box thinking can break many plots.

resurrection: oh no, the king has been murdered! don't worry people, I got a resurrection spell ready. (only reason for example, that hinjo wasn't resurrected in oots is because his criminal activities were exposed beforehand, so there is no point for him to come back to life to stand trial)

polymorph (alter self, etc): lets you select whatever creature from the MM is most suitable for the task, and become one... this is the intended use (I think)... so it falls into this list.

hamishspence
2010-07-20, 01:03 PM
resurrection: oh no, the king has been murdered! don't worry people, I got a resurrection spell ready. (only reason for example, that hinjo wasn't resurrected in oots is because his criminal activities were exposed beforehand, so there is no point for him to come back to life to stand trial)

Shojo, not Hinjo- still, the point makes sense.

Gate is a bit of a gamebreaker- but as a 9th level spell, this makes sense.

Aharon
2010-07-20, 01:17 PM
Objection to ressurection:
Non-Core has ways to make death permanent again. Best would be a twinned Barghest's feast on the corpse for a 25% chance of return, or Animate Dead on the corpse and plane shift it to the Plane of Negative Energy (While not completely unrecoverable, finding something on a plane with next to no special attributes will be difficult.)

To add to the thread:
Planar Binding is powerful even if used as intended (=> Bargain instead of blackmail), as it can net you a servant with capabilities you may lack, similar to polymorph.

taltamir
2010-07-20, 01:20 PM
Objection to ressurection:
Non-Core has ways to make death permanent again. Best would be a twinned Barghest's feast on the corpse for a 25% chance of return, or Animate Dead on the corpse and plane shift it to the Plane of Negative Energy (While not completely unrecoverable, finding something on a plane with next to no special attributes will be difficult.)

fair enough, but those are ways for WOTC to mitigate its whoopsie... when they realized no important person has to ever fear death again.



To add to the thread:
Planar Binding is powerful even if used as intended (=> Bargain instead of blackmail), as it can net you a servant with capabilities you may lack, similar to polymorph.

very good point. doesn't WOTC gives the example of bargaining with the outsider for wishes?
I would say that making simulcara of them, dominating them, etc are "not as intended"... but bargaining with them for ridiculous powers are.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-20, 01:22 PM
Nah, it just makes death either expensive or painful(and still a little expensive).

Most of those who kill you are not going to just leave giant piles of gold around in the hands of your friends and family if they can help it.

Telonius
2010-07-20, 01:25 PM
Find the Path.
:vaarsuvius: : "If only we knew where the Lost Temple of the Hidden Darkness is..."
:durkon: : "It's over tha' way."

Peregrine
2010-07-20, 01:31 PM
I once posted an essay on why resurrection spells don't break game worlds; that is, why not every rich or important person will get raised, and thus why a pseudo-medieval society with typical politics (assassinations included) remains plausible.

My claims ran something like the following: The rules specifically limit the availability of spells-for-hire over a certain price (including all resurrection spells except reincarnate). The rules are targeted at PCs; anywhere that limits apply to PCs, the same or stronger limits will apply to NPCs. Most religions will not let their clerics just up and raise anyone who can pony up the (minimum) cost of the spell. Also, most people end up in an afterlife that is fitting for them, even if it's not paradise. Therefore, only those who have special favour or a special need will come back with any certainty. People with special destinies. People with a cleric in the party or a friendly temple. The PCs.

A lot of people accused me of saying "Rule 0 exists, therefore resurrection is not a problem." I don't believe that's a fair interpretation. Rule 0 is "the DM trumps all rules". My argument was that the rules themselves (thus not Rule 0) support certain assumptions that mean rich merchants, kings and high priests won't have guaranteed next-morning resurrections bought and paid for like a health insurance plan. Only PCs can reliably be assumed to be coming back, and that's as it should be.

(Yes, there are spells and items that can prevent people coming back. But I see those as "special circumstances". It breaks suspension of disbelief if every assassinated ruler is kept dead by "special circumstances".)

taltamir
2010-07-20, 01:45 PM
@Peregrine: you make some good points... however, one in particular bothers me a lot:

Most religions will not let their clerics just up and raise anyone who can pony up the (minimum) cost of the spell.
Where, exactly, does it say that ANY of the gods of DnD do not allow anyone to be raised?
You have SO MANY gods, that no matter what kind of person you are you are BOUND to find a cleric and a god willing to raise you.

Any GOOD person would be raised by palor, helm, st. cuthbert, etc etc.
Any not so good person would be raised by clerics of evil gods...
now... that being said, the evil gods will probably NOT raise you for cost... expect to make a Faustian bargain.

For a neutral person, clerics of waukeen, god of wealth, money and business will raise you gladly for a simply charge of coin (definitely not at cost though)

Telonius
2010-07-20, 01:49 PM
For a neutral person, clerics of waukeen, god of wealth, money and business will raise you gladly for a simply charge of coin (definitely not at cost though)

If such a god didn't exist, the wealthy of the world would invent him. Or at least believe in him in sufficient numbers to cause him to exist.

Beelzebub1111
2010-07-20, 01:49 PM
In terms of Magic items:
Mace of Smiting: This can be summed up in two words "No Save". and that's ANY construct, Adamantine Golem? Natural twenty, it's dead.

taltamir
2010-07-20, 02:06 PM
oh, I also forgot to mention... arcane spells, like wish, can emulate divine spells.. so even if there is no god who will resurrect said person, you just need a wizard.

Peregrine
2010-07-20, 02:08 PM
Where, exactly, does it say that ANY of the gods of DnD do not allow anyone to be raised?

It doesn't, but I consider it to be a reasonable assumption.

Firstly, yes, the more gods you have in your campaign setting, the more likely you are to find one who would be happy to raise you. (I consider this to be asymptotically approaching a world that has a "God of Bringing People Back to Life", where the probability is 1.) But going on the PHB alone, we have a much more manageable number.

Secondly, I don't accept that a good god would gladly send back any good person. The good people are in the good people's afterlife now, and are unlikely to want to leave (unless they have earth-shatteringly important business back in the mortal realm -- again, this usually means PCs). And the good gods are unlikely to want to let them go, because their time is up and they have been welcomed home. Sure, in a world with good and bad gods struggling against each other, there are going to be people who get killed when an evil god wanted them to and a good god didn't. But it is still fair to call this the exception rather than the rule.

The same for gods of greed. You can't just throw more money at gods like this; they're gods. What does gold mean to them? Souls, now, there's a precious resource. You're gonna have to do more than pay 50% over list price to the temple of the god of greed if you want to get resurrected.

Yeah, I don't see every Tom, Richard and Emperor Harry going in for that one. :smallbiggrin:

Gnaeus
2010-07-20, 02:16 PM
I want to make a list of spells that break worlds or plots when used as intended.

on the other hand, teleport... teleport lets you quickly go anywhere in the world you want. Escape danger, jump into the bedroom of your enemy, finish up a hard day of fighting the forces of darkness not by setting camp, but by teleporting back to your luxurious mansion (forget rope trick :P)... this spell is campaign breaking if used exactly as intended.

polymorph (alter self, etc): lets you select whatever creature from the MM is most suitable for the task, and become one... this is the intended use (I think)... so it falls into this list.

The answer is, any spell the DM isn't prepared for.

Orcs have stolen an item or taken a hostage? Cast invisibility, walk into the middle of their camp, pick up item or cast invisibility on hostage, walk out. Invisibility is not generally regarded as broken. Can that be easily stopped with tools at the DMs disposal? Sure! (Traps, guards with high listen or scent, etc).

Teleport is no worse, it is just higher level, so DMs aren't as likely to know good ways to make it work for their story. For my DM, Teleport is nothing but a way to get around some (but not all) overland encounters.

Divination is the same way. "Who killed Mr. Body?" "I dunno! Lets just Speak with Dead and ask him!" It can break mystery plots, or it can provide clues to lead the characters in the right direction, creating sub-objectives. It is all about the DM knowing the limitations of the particular spells and being prepared for them.

Polymorph IS probably broken, used as intended. Which is why there are so many fixes for it.

JaronK
2010-07-20, 02:20 PM
Honestly, it's hard to say what's thinking outside the box and what's not. Our group, for example, used Shrink Item to drop heavy items on enemies and to steal large stuff (like giant statues) pretty much from the word go... we never knew what else it might be for.

I'd say that Planar Binding counts... bargaining with Effreetis for wishes is pretty much what it's designed for, and that's rediculous (just say that if the first two wishes give satisfactory results you'll give the Efreeti 20kgp from the third wish).

Teleport certainly counts... ugh. So does Shapechange, as there's just too many powers that spell can give you. And I'd argue Animate Dead does, as you end up with a ton of extra effective actions.

JaronK

taltamir
2010-07-20, 02:21 PM
@Gnaeus: well... those spells (like invisibility) DO break campaigns. used as INTENDED, it will break any campaign not specifically "proofed" against it... any any campaign such proofed will have rendered the spell useless... thus it is a stealth nerf.

So yes, I would totally argue that invisibility breaks campaigns.

and yes, so is divination...
DM: *plot hook*
PC: *casts divinition, bypasses entire plot in 1 minute of gameplay... time to pack up and go home because that is all the DM had for tonight and was supposed to take ~10 hours over two sessions to figure out

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 02:29 PM
In all fairness, material wealth does actually increase a deities power by increasing the power and influence of his worldly powers. If you play in a Faerun-esque setting, a deity is only as powerful as the sum of his followers. If those followers are amazingly well-funded far-traveling feed-the-children type missionaries, the sponsoring deity is gonna gain a lot of power and influence. I've yet to read about any deity who spontaneously generates unlimited quantities of precious gems and metals in the temples of their followers, so those riches have to be garnered somehow. Resurections can go a long way to funding the deeds of good-doers everywhere.

Also, in Furyondy, a major kingdom in the World of Greyhawk, they have a law on the books called "The Dead Shall Not Rule". If you die, for any reason, and are resurrected in any fasion, you lose all rights to rule, or inherit rulership. Such a rule would be perfectly acceptable in a culture where resurrection would be possible, especially if the culture had an alternative ruling body like a church or senate to keep the ruler from repealing the rule.

hamishspence
2010-07-20, 02:32 PM
In Discworld (where Igors can sometimes resurrect people) Ankh Morpork has a rule by the Patrician (summarized in Unseen Academicals) covering people murdered and brought back:

"If it takes an Igor to bring you back, you were dead. Briefly dead, it's true- which is why the murderer will be briefly hanged"

taltamir
2010-07-20, 02:35 PM
In all fairness, material wealth does actually increase a deities power by increasing the power and influence of his worldly powers. If you play in a Faerun-esque setting, a deity is only as powerful as the sum of his followers. If those followers are amazingly well-funded far-traveling feed-the-children type missionaries, the sponsoring deity is gonna gain a lot of power and influence. I've yet to read about any deity who spontaneously generates unlimited quantities of precious gems and metals in the temples of their followers, so those riches have to be garnered somehow. Resurections can go a long way to funding the deeds of good-doers everywhere.
All very true... which makes the ability to simply jaunt over to the elemental plane of earth to get diamonds even more broken then it was before.


Also, in Furyondy, a major kingdom in the World of Greyhawk, they have a law on the books called "The Dead Shall Not Rule". If you die, for any reason, and are resurrected in any fasion, you lose all rights to rule, or inherit rulership. Such a rule would be perfectly acceptable in a culture where resurrection would be possible, especially if the culture had an alternative ruling body like a church or senate to keep the ruler from repealing the rule.
this is a huge cop-out and will never stand. you will always find SOMEONE willing to resurrect you, even if you have to resort to wizards casting limited wish to emulate raise dead to do so.
Even if your return to life is not somehow kept secret (which, btw, would be an excellent plot), if you are a powerful enough ruler you can simply ignore said law... i mean... as the king you MAKE the law.

that being said... this would be an excellent source of drama... kings who died, resurrected, and kept the whole thing secret. Kings who rule still in flaunting of said law... kings who died, came back, and gracefully stepped down...
there are all sorts of drama and plot hooks in such a thing.

Kythorian
2010-07-20, 02:36 PM
Of course you can just throw more money at them to get a raise. You are NOT directly going to the god themself to beg resurection. You are trying to convince the clerics of that god...and clerics have all sorts of uses for gold. New additions to the temple...new armor for themselves...whatever. And as long as the raise isn't of some evil bastard, if a cleric requests it, as with other spells, the god goes ahead and grants the power. So all you need to do is convince some random (single) cleric to accept your 2x the gold it costs them to buy the diamonds for the raise, and you are going to get someone who is willing if you spend more than a minute or two searching. So I just disagree that all really important people wouldn't be raised after assassination. Besides...another living person worshiping them is More valuable to a god as a dead soul in some paradise who used to worship them...

In my games, I just don't use political assassination much except at very high levels, where they do make sure the guy isn't coming back, or at very low levels where the assassin is pretty sure the guy's family doesn't have the money to spring for a raise.

I agree on the divination...I tried doing an entire plot arc based around tracking down a series of informants and getting progressively more information early in my DM'ing days, and the entire thing was solved in about 3 spells. Of course, later, i learned how to use divination type spells to help provide options for ways that the PC's could obtain obscure information I wanted them to get that they couldn't have found otherwise, but you must plan your games around it, or it will break things.

Other spells...well, same line as polymorph, but shapechange is so much worse...and less bad, but still game breaking(at an earlier level) is alter self.

I guess this is a combo type thing, but its a combo that the spell seems designed to do:Timestop...So many ways you can screw the other guy over if you have a few rounds to set it up while they are sitting there oblivious about how dead they are about to become without them ever getting an action.

I don't really remember what else is in core and what isn't, and don't care enough to look it up.

Gnaeus
2010-07-20, 02:38 PM
@Gnaeus: well... those spells (like invisibility) DO break campaigns. used as INTENDED, it will break any campaign not specifically "proofed" against it... any any campaign such proofed will have rendered the spell useless... thus it is a stealth nerf.

So yes, I would totally argue that invisibility breaks campaigns.

and yes, so is divination...
DM: *plot hook*
PC: *casts divinition, bypasses entire plot in 1 minute of gameplay... time to pack up and go home because that is all the DM had for tonight and was supposed to take ~10 hours over two sessions to figure out

Then the question is so broad as to be without meaning, and is thus silly.

Any spell that provides alternate modes of movement could "break" a game.

So could Climb, Swim, Jump.

Any spell that provides information could "break" a game.

So could gather information, spot, listen, all knowledges, bardic knowledge.

Any spell that grants stealth could "break" a game.

So could hide, move silently.

Any spell that charms or summons allies could "break" a game.

So can diplomacy, or a pouch full of gold.

Any spell that demolishes enemies can break a game.

So can a charging barbarian with power attack when the DM was expecting a monk or a S&B fighter.

None of them are broken used as intended, or they all are. If invisibility breaks your game, it is the DM that is broken, not the spell.

taltamir
2010-07-20, 02:42 PM
I guess this is a combo type thing, but its a combo that the spell seems designed to do:Timestop...So many ways you can screw the other guy over if you have a few rounds to set it up while they are sitting there oblivious about how dead they are about to become without them ever getting an action.

a casting of timestop will, at most, win you one combat. its combat breaking, but not world or campaign breaking... I can't think of a way for the wizard to cast time stop and just solve 2 sessions worth of DM planning with that one spell.
with the exception being "objects of value are falling into portals, you have enough time to cast a spell to catch only one"... (with the idea is, if you catch one or the other, you do the mission to fetch the other from whatever dimension it fell to.. if you catch neither you do both missions... DM did not consider you being able to catch both)...
problem is... if you can cast time stop then this isn't exactly a challange to retreive said items. besides which, why plan TWO entire dungeons if only ONE is going to be used?


Then the question is so broad as to be without meaning, and is thus silly.

not at all... fireball (or any DD spell) does NOT break campaigns if used as intend... it just does damage...
ONLY utility spells can break campaigns, and ONLY the really broken ones can break campaigns... that invisibility is incidental.

Radar
2010-07-20, 02:43 PM
If such a god didn't exist, the wealthy of the world would invent him. Or at least believe in him in sufficient numbers to cause him to exist.
Or pay masses of people to believe in him... I sense an evil deification scheme right there. :smallamused:

Kythorian
2010-07-20, 02:45 PM
Its campaign breaking when you kill the BBEG that way several levels before you were even supposted to seriously fight him(back when he is still at the 'taunt the stupid PCs' stage)...until the wizard timestops and reverse gravity/double prismatic spheres him right before he was about to teleport out...

*mutter*

taltamir
2010-07-20, 02:46 PM
Its campaign breaking when you kill the BBEG that way several levels before you were even supposted to seriously fight him(back when he is still at the 'taunt the stupid PCs' stage)...until the wizard timestops and reverse gravity/double prismatic spheres him right before he was about to teleport out...

*mutter*

if your wizard is casting multiple 9th level spells per battle, is he really supposed to gain a few more levels before fighting the BBEG?

And yes, it is always possible to break a singular campaign because of a lucky roll, or unexpected PC behavior... a barbarian doing something unexpected and getting some lucky rolls COULD break a plot... in theory... but that would very rare and probably a not very good plot.

My question is what spells consistently break plots. where it takes a great deal of effort (potentially nerfing said spell to nothingness) to NOT have it break your plot.

Gnaeus
2010-07-20, 03:02 PM
if your wizard is casting multiple 9th level spells per battle, is he really supposed to gain a few more levels before fighting the BBEG?

The level of the spell is irrelevant. If the wizard takes out the BBEG at level 3 with a SoD, or a metamagiced scorching ray, it works just the same.


And yes, it is always possible to break a singular campaign because of a lucky roll, or unexpected PC behavior... a barbarian doing something unexpected and getting some lucky rolls COULD break a plot... in theory... but that would very rare and probably a not very good plot.

My question is what spells consistently break plots. where it takes a great deal of effort (potentially nerfing said spell to nothingness) to NOT have it break your plot.

And the answer is, any that the DM isn't prepared for.

Teleport ISN'T broken. Commune ISN'T broken. Fly ISN'T broken. The smart DM just writes his plots so that they aren't an "I win" button. If I design a huge maze filled with wild animals, a flying wizard will break my plot, but so will a fighter who climbs to the top of the walls and shoots all my non ranged monsters below him with his bow.

Kythorian
2010-07-20, 03:03 PM
BBEG was epic. but apparently not epic enough to survive going through what was 4 prismatic walls(basically). Or something like that...was a while ago. What annoyed me is that this wasn't just luck though...Its one thing if someone charges, and happens to get a few true 20's on their pounce, criting on all of them to demolish the guy...its possible, but more likely you would mostly miss, and he would just swat the guy before teleporting away, costing the group 25k for a true res. I was prepared for that...But surviving 28 saves? (granted, a lot of them were just for damage, but still...) Thats no longer luck...its just a guaranteed kill against even something much stronger than you that you would never be able to take in a straight battle.

But I get your general point. I suppose that this is kind of a rare situation.

Most of the really campaign breaking spells and abilities are not in core though...polymorph/shapechange is one of the few exceptions, and divination in general if you are not prepaired for it. Otherwise, its just a matter of the DM being aware of teleportation, or invisibility, etc and planning the campaign with those in mind, so that they might be useful, but won't just destroy the campaign.

Nero24200
2010-07-20, 03:35 PM
Teleport ISN'T broken. Commune ISN'T broken. Fly ISN'T broken. The smart DM just writes his plots so that they aren't an "I win" button.

It becomes very pointless very quickly if every enemy conviently has portection against teleportation or a means of combating flying characters. If you have to go out your way to stop them breaking the game then cleary something isn't right.

If a PC decides to learn fireball I don't suddenly have to re-write half the campaign - On the other hand if a PC learns Fly I'm suddenly going to have to do alot of work.

Besides, if you go out your way to stop Teleport or Fly from acheiving their specific functions...why have them in the first place?

Eldariel
2010-07-20, 04:08 PM
It becomes very pointless very quickly if every enemy conviently has portection against teleportation or a means of combating flying characters. If you have to go out your way to stop them breaking the game then cleary something isn't right.

If a PC decides to learn fireball I don't suddenly have to re-write half the campaign - On the other hand if a PC learns Fly I'm suddenly going to have to do alot of work.

Besides, if you go out your way to stop Teleport or Fly from acheiving their specific functions...why have them in the first place?

Are we talking about which spells affect the campaign world? 'cause the very existence of those spells would change...well, everything. All kinds of defaults in our world simply no longer apply and e.g. politics, military, justice and all such systems will both, be prepared for, and utilize magic.

Saph
2010-07-20, 04:34 PM
Not many, really. You just have to accept that D&D isn't the real world. The ground rules are different. The problem is when DMs don't take into account the capabilities of the PCs when planning their adventures. In the same way that you don't expect a tribe of trolls to make good encounters for a party of Level 1 PCs, you don't expect death or distance to be a permanent setback for a party of Level 10s.

Gnaeus
2010-07-20, 06:24 PM
It becomes very pointless very quickly if every enemy conviently has portection against teleportation or a means of combating flying characters. If you have to go out your way to stop them breaking the game then cleary something isn't right.

Yes. The thing that isn't right is you completely shutting down your characters abilities that they worked to get.

On the other hand, it is easy to have plots where teleportation or flight can be beneficial, without destroying the plot. Maybe you know generally where the bad guy is, so you can teleport to the right part of the continent, but you don't know where his bedroom is (And remember, by the time PCs are throwing around 5th level spells, BBEGs are likely to have access to blocking magic).

Maybe commune can't tell you the killer, because he is protected from divination magic. Maybe Speak with Dead can tell you the killer, but you have to find the body, which was taken. Commune can tell you that the body was taken to temple X (if you have enough clues to ask the right questions). Teleport can get you to the door, but the temple itself is warded against magical entry. Break into the temple, find the body (and escape with it). Cast speak with dead and you know who the killer was. Speak with Dead and Commune didn't short circuit that plot, they drove it.

Saph is exactly right. Building challenges to which the PC's abilities are relevant but not overwhelming is part of being a good DM.