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Talbot
2010-07-20, 04:18 PM
SLA's are supposed to pretty much always be a standard action or faster, right? Does that include Factotum's spells? Can I cast Sending/Major Creation/other cool stuff in one round?

AmberVael
2010-07-20, 04:22 PM
There's nothing in the Factotum ability that contradicts the rule of "Standard action unless otherwise stated," so... yeah, seems like.

Gametime
2010-07-20, 04:45 PM
Note that this interpretation does preclude you from using cool swift and immediate action spells. The tradeoff might not be worth it.

Also, interestingly, the Rules Compendium tackles this issue, but only from the "faster than standard" end:


If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time.

Technically, since the Rules Compendium isn't errata, I believe this clause is useless (since it contradicts something from the core rules, which supplements aren't allowed to do). If your group ignores that fact (which is necessary to enjoy things like swift action wands) you could use that to justify getting faster spells and still use long casting spells as a standard action. Make sure to prepare Greater Mirror Image for when your DM chucks a book at you, though.

AmberVael
2010-07-20, 04:48 PM
Technically, since the Rules Compendium isn't errata, I believe this clause is useless

Nah, the Rules Compendium states on the fifth page that the rulings it contains are meant to take precedence over everything preceding it.

Gametime
2010-07-20, 04:55 PM
Nah, the Rules Compendium states on the fifth page that the rulings it contains are meant to take precedence over everything preceding it.

Unfortunately, the Rules Compendium doesn't have the "authority" to say that, so to speak. Witness:


Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.

It goes on to say that the Monster Manual is the primary source for, among other things, extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. Information in the Rules Compendium that contradicts that is ignored, since an official errata file doesn't say otherwise. The Rules Compendium itself isn't classified as errata.

Mind, treating the Rules Compendium as the authoritative source makes a lot more sense, but if we're talking about the strict reading of the rules, it does us no good.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-20, 04:57 PM
There's nothing in the Factotum ability that contradicts the rule of "Standard action unless otherwise stated," so... yeah, seems like.


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:
I don't even know why this argument ever happens. It has been in the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) since the beginning.

JaronK
2010-07-20, 04:58 PM
Eh, the Rules Compendium is rather poorly written for what's supposed to be a clarification of the rules. Don't even get me started on the whole wand action issue... that was really poorly written.

JaronK

sreservoir
2010-07-20, 04:59 PM
the RC is the primary source for rules. of course, then you can invoke specific trumps general...

AmberVael
2010-07-20, 05:02 PM
I don't even know why this argument ever happens. It has been in the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) since the beginning.

I even went and checked on d20srd, too... :smallsigh:

I guess I just saw "(usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated" and didn't look closer from there.

Blame my speed reading.

JaronK
2010-07-20, 05:06 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure it does say somewhere else that all spell likes are standard actions. I forget where, but I know I've seen that. From what I can tell, there's two mutually contradictory entries on the time taken for spell likes, hence the confusion.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2010-07-20, 05:15 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure it does say somewhere else that all spell likes are standard actions. I forget where, but I know I've seen that. From what I can tell, there's two mutually contradictory entries on the time taken for spell likes, hence the confusion.

JaronK

Actions in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm) has another reference:

Spell-Like Abilities

Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.

...but the section on Special Abilities, being more in detail on what a Spell-Like Ability is and how it works, should be considered primary source. Especially since Actions in Combat comes from the PHB, while Special Abilities comes from the DMG: players only need to know what SLAs that they have access to do (which, all the PHB SLAs are standard actions) while the DMG contains information also relevant to monsters (which may include SLAs which function otherwise).

Alternatively, you can read "ability description" as "the description of spell-like abilities", which then the more in-detail section from Special Abilities would then supersede.

Gametime
2010-07-20, 05:22 PM
...but the section on Special Abilities, being more in detail on what a Spell-Like Ability is and how it works, should be considered primary source. Especially since Actions in Combat comes from the PHB, while Special Abilities comes from the DMG: players only need to know what SLAs that they have access to do (which, all the PHB SLAs are standard actions) while the DMG contains information also relevant to monsters (which may include SLAs which function otherwise).



The Monster Manual has its own entry, in the glossary.


Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.

The Monster Manual is considered the primary source for special abilities. The Monster Manual rule is so much less sensible than the alternatives, though, that I can't imagine anyone actually plays that way.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-20, 05:25 PM
The Monster Manual is considered the primary source for special abilities.

...according to what?

JaronK
2010-07-20, 05:33 PM
The Monster Manual is the primary source for racial abilities in general (since it goes over racial abilities more) but I'm not sure it can trump the rules on special abilities in general.

It's just bad writing... I think one designer wanted one thing and one wanted another. But you can certainly see with these differing entries why it's easy to get confused.

JaronK

Gametime
2010-07-20, 07:00 PM
...according to what?

According to the errata rules.


Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

Just to be clear, though, I think the Monster Manual rule is very silly, and running a game using anything other than the rule that spell-like abilities take the same time as the spells they emulate would not be something I'd enjoy.

As long as we're talking strictly about the rules, though (and the OP seemed to be), the Factotum gets them all as a standard action, so far as I can tell.

The Shadowmind
2010-07-20, 07:20 PM
Here is what BG forums has had to say on it.:
Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6498.0) and Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6674.20)
It is a standard, move, swift, or immediate action.

JaronK
2010-07-20, 11:49 PM
I'm surprised page 180 of the PHB isn't considered the primary source on that topic. I mean, it's the first place I go to see the rules on abilities like that. How weird.

But damn, that makes Major Creation REALLY good for Factotums. Standard action to leave any enemy in a puddle of Sinmaker's Surprise or Black Lotus? Ouchie.

JaronK

zaulsiin
2010-07-22, 09:47 AM
Though not strictly RAW, per se, the following quote adds some credence to the stance that Arcane Dilettante is always a standard action:



From Wizards.com - Rules of the Game: All About Spell-Like Abilities (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040413a):
---------
Similarities Between Spells and Spell-Like Abilities

A spell-like ability is like a spell in the following ways:

*Using a spell-like ability is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Sometimes using a spell-like ability can be a free action or a full-round action, or it can have an even longer activation time. However, it's a standard action unless the ability description specifically says otherwise. A creature using a spell-like ability can use all the tricks that a spellcaster can use to avoid that nasty attack of opportunity. The creature can take a 5-foot step before using the ability (so as to get out of a threatened area). The creature also can make a Concentration check to use the ability defensively.

...etc...


(Underlining added for emphasis.)

Curmudgeon
2010-07-22, 08:17 PM
I'm surprised page 180 of the PHB isn't considered the primary source on that topic. I mean, it's the first place I go to see the rules on abilities like that.
It is the primary source, if the spell-like ability is in a base class description. If it's a prestige class feature, the DMG is the primary source. Monster Manual gets all the rest.

Different parts of the game, different primary source rules. (Nobody ever said WotC tried to keep things simple.) So Factotum SLAs are indeed covered by PH page 180 ─ and Rules Compendium page 118, if your game uses that book.