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Talbot
2010-07-20, 04:46 PM
Note: for those unfamiliar with it, the tier system, and much of the argument it invariably produces, can be found here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

This is really more of a though exercise than anything else, but allowing that there are four "classic" party roles (more on that in a moment), how would you build a "classic" four person party using only classes on each tier?

For reference, the "classic" roles are defined here as:

The Warrior- He's tough, he's strong, he's brute force all over.
The Mage- He has almost limitless power, except it has several arbitrary limitations placed on it.
The Priest- Can/often does heal, likes to use divine power.
The Swiss Army Knife- Always versatile, often sneaky, and can really hurt somebody if used properly.

Rules: No prestige classes, may only use classes from the appropriate tier. And let's skip the predictable "Warrior- Druid, Mage- Druid, Priest- Druid, SWK- Druid" jokes, please. Each role should be distinct.

I have my own opinions, but I'd like to see what everyone else thinks. By way of an example, my "Tier 3" crew would look roughly like this, with Mage and Priest being the toughest roles to fill:

Warrior: Warblade 20
Mage: Factotum 10/Beguiler 10
Priest: Dread Necro 10/Binder 10
SWK: Factotum 11/ Swordsage 9

DragoonWraith
2010-07-20, 04:50 PM
By definition, Tier 1's aren't going to do this well. Every Tier 1 can fill every role, usually simultaneously. I mean, as you pointed out - the Druid is a divine caster, a warrior, a powerful spellcaster, and can do scouting and the like very, very well. The Wizard can do warrior with polymorph/shapechange, so only really is going to have issues with the priest role. The Artificer can be a blaster, a melee tank, can heal about as well as anybody with wands and scrolls, and has Disable Trap. The cleric is a warrior, a priest, a spellcaster. And they're all Swiss army knives by definition. Wouldn't be Tier 1 if they weren't.

And the lower Tiers have the opposite problem - they'll all be warriors, maybe some of the weaker "Swiss army knives" (it'll be what they're supposed to do, but they usually won't be particularly good at it), but you won't see any priests other than the Healer and no mages at all.

Further, the no PrC rule seems arbitrary and bizarre. The presence of Factotum 10/Beguiler 10 and Dread Necromancer 10/Binder 10 is particularly strange, and the latter at least could have been salvaged somewhat using Anima Mage. And there's no way a Factotum 10/Beguiler 10 or a Dread Necromancer 10/Binder 10 is on par with a Warblade 20 or even the Factotum 11/Swordsage 9. 10 levels in an arcane casting class at level 20 is basically worthless.

Grumman
2010-07-20, 04:57 PM
Rules: No prestige classes,
To hell with that!

Warrior: Druidzilla
Mage: Ultimate Magus
Priest: Ruby Knight Vindicator
Swiss Army Knife: Wizard 4 / Spellthief 1 / Unseen Seer 10 / Spellwarp Sniper 5

Eldariel
2010-07-20, 04:58 PM
Newer Tier System Post (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0)


Tier 5 pretty much builds itself:

The Warrior - Knight 20
The Mage - CA Ninja 2/Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Monk 2/Rokugan Ninja 2/OA Samurai 2/Knight 3/Paladin +3/CA Ninja +2
The Priest - Healer 20
The Swiss Army Knife - CA Ninja 20

Yeah, The Mage isn't much of The Mage but he has a lot of (trivial and unsynergistic) abilities and he can do a lot (of nothing). Seems about appropriate for Tier 5.


Tier 4 is fairly easy too:

The Warrior - Ranger 2/Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Zhentarim Dungeon Crasher Fighter 10/Ranger +6
The Mage - Warlock 20
The Priest - Adept 20 (he'll be more of an arcane/divine buffer but still, Heal as a level 5 spell and all makes him a decent divinist)
The Swiss Army Knife - Rogue 19/Barbarian 1 (realistically, there's a lot of options for this slot but Rogue is the most classical and I feel the most solid of the bunch)


Tier 3:

The Warrior - Crusader 2/Warblade 18
The Mage - Beguiler 20
The Priest - Binder 20
The Swiss Army Knife - Factotum 20

Lans
2010-07-20, 04:58 PM
Tier 1
Warrior Druid
Mage Archivist
Priest Cleric
Swiss Wizard

Talbot
2010-07-20, 04:58 PM
By definition, Tier 1's aren't going to do this well. Every Tier 1 can fill every role, usually simultaneously.

The no PrC rule seems arbitrary and bizarre. The presence of Factotum 10/Beguiler 10 and Dread Necromancer 10/Binder 10 is particularly bizarre, and the latter at least could have been salvaged somewhat using Anima Mage. And there's no way a Factotum 10/Beguiler 10 or a Dread Necromancer 10/Binder 10 is on par with a Warblade 20 or even the Factotum 11/Swordsage 9. 10 levels in an arcane casting class at level 20 is basically worthless.

Point the First: Theirein lies the challenge. Druid is probably a better/more natural tank than Wizard, for example.

Point the Second: PrCs muggy up the tier system, so including them complicates things a great deal. If the thread is a success, perhaps a later iteration/follow up would seek to incorporate them.

Point the Third: I'm not much of an optimizer, and I've not played with Binder or Dread Necro very much at all, so it might be a bad combo. I was just going with "Binder can heal a little, Necro does divine stuff". I fully expect others to have better ideas than my first thoughts, which is more or less the whole point of the thread.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-20, 05:00 PM
Tier 6:
W: CW Samurai
M: Truenamer (sort of)
P: Aristocrat? For more money and CC UMD?
SWK: Commoner, because they do everything equally terribly.

Tier 5:
W: Fighter (duh)
M: Sword of the Arcane Order Paladin? IDK...
P: Healer (duh)
SWK: Expert

Tier 4:
W: Barbarian
M: Warlock/Warmage/Adept (focus on Adept)
P: Adept or Ranger w/ wand of cure light
SWK: Rogue (duh)/ scout

Tier 3:
W: ToB classes/ Psywar/ WS ranger/ Duskblade/ etc. Lots here.
M: Beguiler, DN, Factotum?, Bard?, Binder
P: Crusader, Bard, Binder, Anything with Cure Light or UMD.
SWK: FACTOTUM. Who else? (oh right, bard and binder)

Tier 2:
W: Favored Soul, Egoist, Sorc w/ Polymorph
M: Sorc, Psion
P: Favored Soul, maybe specialized psion.
SWK: Psion, Sorcerer
There's not much variety here.

TIER 1:
W: Cleric, Druid, Artificer
M: Wizard, Archivist, Erudite, Artificer
P: Cleric, Druid, Artificer
SWK: Artificer, (everything else)

Yeah. Artificer up in this everything.

Critical
2010-07-20, 05:02 PM
When playing a caster, you'd rather not want to lose any caster levels, unless it's really worth it - remember that.

So, each tier? I'll post it in the order OP gave.
Tier 1: CoDzilla, Wizard/Archivist, CoDzilla, anything.
Tier 2: Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Binder.
Tier 3: Warblade, Beguiler, Bard, Factotum
Tier 4: Fighter, Warlock, Adept, Rogue
Tier 5: Fighter, Healer, Healer, CA Ninja
Tier 6: CW Samurai, Rich Aristocrat, Rich Aristocrat, Rich Aristocrat.

JaronK
2010-07-20, 05:05 PM
Here's my list without multiclassing (though I can't quite pull it off for T2)

Tier 1: Cloistered Cleric with Kobold Domain (Skillmonkey), Wizard (Arcanist), Cleric (Healer), Druid (Warrior)

Tier 2: Favored Soul (Healer), Sorcerer (Arcanist), Favoured Soul with different spells (Warrior), ...um... really optimized Beguiler (Skillmonkey)

Tier 3: Beguiler or Factotum (Skillmonkey), Warblade or Crusader (Warrior), Crusader (Healer), Beguiler or Dread Necromancer (Arcanist)

Tier 4: Rogue or Scout (Skillmonkey), Ranger or Barbarian (Warrior), Warmage or Warlock (Arcanist), Adept (Healer)

Tier 5: Fighter (Warrior), Healer (Healer), Badly Played Warmage (Arcanist), Ninja, Expert, or Spellthief (Skillmonkey)

Tier 6: Warrior (Warrior), Commoner with Infested with Chickens and UMD (Arcanist), Commoner with Infested with Chickens and UMD (Healer), Badly played Ninja (Skillmonkey).

Yeah, something like that.

Theodoriph
2010-07-20, 05:16 PM
Tier 1
Warrior Druid
Mage Archivist
Priest Cleric
Swiss Wizard


You don't want a Swiss wizard. First, they may declare neutrality during combat. Second, when you really need the corkscrew, they'll fumble through the knife and nail filer while getting to it.

Kyrthain
2010-07-20, 05:32 PM
You don't want a Swiss wizard. First, they may declare neutrality during combat. Second, when you really need the corkscrew, they'll fumble through the knife and nail filer while getting to it.

But your money will be safe, you'll know what time it is, PLUS CHOCOLATE!

Morph Bark
2010-07-20, 05:51 PM
But your money will be safe, you'll know what time it is, PLUS CHOCOLATE!

Not to mention cheese.

/ZING!

AvatarZero
2010-07-20, 07:31 PM
To hell with that!

Warrior: Druidzilla
Mage: Ultimate Magus
Priest: Ruby Knight Vindicator
Swiss Army Knife: Wizard 4 / Spellthief 1 / Unseen Seer 10 / Spellwarp Sniper 5

Thumbs up to that! Especially considering that you're suggesting a party where one of my perpetually reincarnating mage-thief builds would actually fit in without eclipsing the rest of the party.


Horrible horrible jokes

I don't know whether to boo or applaud. I suppose I could clap angrily... (http://chorpenning.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/1233928590_citizen-kane-clapping.gif)

Lans
2010-07-21, 07:03 PM
Tier 6:
W: CW Samurai
M: Truenamer (sort of)
P: Aristocrat? For more money and CC UMD?
SWK: Commoner, because they do everything equally terribly.

.
Truenamer makes a workable healer, outside of combat you can keep trying until you get 20, and people can help you. A bit later it goes to reusable healing bricks

Frosty
2010-07-21, 07:11 PM
It's a testament to how well-written the Beguiler is when almost every poster has that class as a tier 3 pick.

Optimystik
2010-07-21, 07:44 PM
Tier 2: Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Binder.

Eh? Binder only approaches Tier 2 with Zceryll bound, and both the Sorcerer and Favored Soul can cover for that very limited aspect of brokenness.


It's a testament to how well-written the Beguiler is when almost every poster has that class as a tier 3 pick.

Or how few skillmonkeys are Tier 3.

Frosty
2010-07-21, 09:33 PM
Compared to what other tier? Tier 3 and tier 4 are tied at 3 each. Tier 4 has Rogue, Scout, and Spellthief. If you want to count Ranger (using an ACF in Dungeonscape can get Trapfinding woot) then Tier 3 and 4 both have 4 skillmonkeys each.

I don'tthink any other tier has more skillmonkey classes.

Optimystik
2010-07-21, 09:36 PM
Compared to what other tier? Tier 3 and tier 4 are tied at 3 each. Tier 4 has Rogue, Scout, and Spellthief. If you want to count Ranger (using an ACF in Dungeonscape can get Trapfinding woot) then Tier 3 and 4 both have 4 skillmonkeys each.

I don'tthink any other tier has more skillmonkey classes.

The only 3 I can think of that might be 3 are Factotum, Beguiler and Psychic Rogue - and I recall reading that Factota need multiple Fonts of Inspiration to reach 3. Who's the 4th?

Zeta Kai
2010-07-21, 09:59 PM
The only 3 I can think of that might be 3 are Factotum, Beguiler and Psychic Rogue - and I recall reading that Factota need multiple Fonts of Inspiration to reach 3. Who's the 4th?

A factotum doesn't need FoI to qualify for Tier 3, it's already there. But with enough FoI's, it can almost reach Tier 2.

Frosty
2010-07-21, 11:12 PM
The only 3 I can think of that might be 3 are Factotum, Beguiler and Psychic Rogue - and I recall reading that Factota need multiple Fonts of Inspiration to reach 3. Who's the 4th?
Well the Bard, for one. Also, Wildshape Ranger is tier 3, and can take the same ACF to get Trapfinding. 6+Int skills with a not bad skill list.

Draz74
2010-07-22, 01:56 AM
Well the Bard, for one. Also, Wildshape Ranger is tier 3, and can take the same ACF to get Trapfinding. 6+Int skills with a not bad skill list.

Or the Scout/Ranger/Swift Hunter combination is generally considered to be Tier 3, especially with Mystic Ranger.

Tier 3 Skillmonkey choices aren't really that rare; they're just not generally "out-of-the-box." The Beguiler and maybe the Psychic Rogue are the only skillmonkeys that don't really take some optimization to get to Tier 3.

okpokalypse
2010-07-22, 09:07 AM
Tier 1
Warrior Druid
Mage Archivist
Priest Cleric
Swiss Wizard

I see what you've got, but I always feel dirty putting either Cleric or Druid in as the "Warrior" Tier-1 class as well as replacing the typical "Thief" archetype with Wizard. I'd go this way:

Warrior: Psy Warr / Ardent
Mage: Conjurer / Master Specialist
Priest: Favored Soul / Sacred Exorcist
Swiss: Ranger 6 / Scout 4 / Ardent 5 (Freedom/Guardian/Natural/Time) / Pyro Kineticist 5*

* I Know - not really Tier-1, but fun. Great Melee'r with a +3d6 Skirmish, +2d6 Improved Skirmish and +2d6 Fire (Pyro Kin) on every attack. Telling Blow lets that +5d6 Skirmish stack into Crits! Using Dimensional Hop for 3 PSP as a Swift Action triggers all Skirmish Bonuses and with 2WF, that's a sizable # of attacks. It would also (via Practiced Manifester & Overchannel) have access to 12 HD Metamorphs (War Troll is my personal Favorite) and have the wonderful "Anticipatory Strike" ability to accellerate their actions. Add in Track, Trapfinding and a host of skillful use to go with great mobility and speed (at least 60' - maybe more) and you've got a fun-to-play utility guy who can cause some havok...

okpokalypse
2010-07-22, 09:15 AM
Or For another Swiss Option...

Conjurer 3 / Psion 7 / Cerebramancer 10 who eventually does a True Mind Switch with a Lilitu to get Mock Divinity (Ex), Item Use (Ex) and Shroud Alignment (Ex). It's always nice to be able to get a free 9th Level Cleric Progression AND auto-pass on all UMD Checks while being relatively immune to alignment-affecting Spells / Powers / Abilities :).

For purposes of Staffomancy, the Use Item ability would replicate the desired caster level. Get a staff w/ Holy Word in it and just use it at CL 100. Your check always succeeds.

Uin
2010-07-22, 09:35 AM
Re: Beguilers

They always seemed to be very high up in tier 3 to me. Advanced Learning could get them some ShadowX spells or (Greater) Heroism. They have some good spells outside illusion and enchantment:

Glitterdust, (Greater) Dispel, Haste, Freedom of Movement, Solid Fog, True Seeing, Mind Blank, Time Stop

Even if stuck for attacking options they can buff and have a massive skill list.

Draz74
2010-07-22, 12:09 PM
Re: Beguilers

They always seemed to be very high up in tier 3 to me. Advanced Learning could get them some ShadowX spells or (Greater) Heroism. They have some good spells outside illusion and enchantment:

Glitterdust, (Greater) Dispel, Haste, Freedom of Movement, Solid Fog, True Seeing, Mind Blank, Time Stop

Even if stuck for attacking options they can buff and have a massive skill list.

Agreed, I've always considered them borderline between T2 and T3.

Frosty
2010-07-22, 09:48 PM
Agreed, I've always considered them borderline between T2 and T3.
Their buffing options aren't THAT great though. Outside of Greater Invis, Displacement, Haste and (if you learn it) Heroism/Greater Heroism, you can't really buff. And the first two are defeated by anything with True Seeing.

To be honest, the biggest thing besides Will-save-or-suck that I end up doing with my Beguiler is Solid Fog. Now that's an awesome spell. Beguilers can solve a limited amount of situations very efficiently, and can sort of contribute in others. They can't destroy your campaign. I'm not sure how Beguilers are above T3.

Superglucose
2010-07-22, 09:51 PM
Tier 1:

Warrior: Druid 20
Arcanist: Wizard 20
Diviner: Archivist 20
Skill Monkey: Cloistered Cleric 20

Seriously I do not see what everyone' obsession with the tier system is. There's this absurd attitude that a 20 druid must always overshine every member of every party ever. That's just... not the case. I've played straight wizard in a party of rogue, monk, fighter, paladin and managed to not outshine any of them by not trying to take their roles away from them.

Yes, a druid could probably do better at fighting than the fighter. But instead you could be a druid who uses crowd control. Or buffs the fighter.

Greenish
2010-07-22, 10:00 PM
I see what you've got, but I always feel dirty putting either Cleric or Druid in as the "Warrior" Tier-1 class as well as replacing the typical "Thief" archetype with Wizard. I'd go this way:

<snip>

* I Know - not really Tier-1, but fun.When the very point of the exercise is to use classes from a certain tier, mixing tiers for "more fun" is going off-topic. There is precisely one tier 1 character in your "tier 1 party", and one that seems to rank at tier 4 at best. (Besides, multiclassing psywarr with ardent is pretty pointless.)

Anyhow, a tier 1 can be made to do practically anything, with even the poorest combination being a druid skillmonkey.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-22, 10:13 PM
(Besides, multiclassing psywarr with ardent is pretty pointless.)


Not so actually, PsyWars are very good dips for a melee focused Ardent. You get feats, the chance to pic up a few niche powers, and don't even lose as many power points as a normal dip.

Greenish
2010-07-22, 10:47 PM
Not so actually, PsyWars are very good dips for a melee focused Ardent. You get feats, the chance to pic up a few niche powers, and don't even lose as many power points as a normal dip.Hmm, a short dip might work, but I still think you'd be better off with something else (like monk2/fighter2 for 5 feats and wis to AC). The powers you want can be grabbed with custom mantle or expanded knowledge, so you can actually augment them.

And anything with more than 4 levels… no go.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-22, 10:50 PM
Hmm, a short dip might work, but I still think you'd be better off with something else (like monk2/fighter2 for 5 feats and wis to AC). The powers you want can be grabbed with custom mantle or expanded knowledge, so you can actually augment them.

And anything with more than 4 levels… no go.
.
Obviously no more than 4 levels. Probably no more than 2, but a Psywar dip is almost strictly better than a Fighter dip. And why waste feats for what you can get for little to no cost?

Greenish
2010-07-22, 10:53 PM
.
Obviously no more than 4 levels. Probably no more than 2, but a Psywar dip is almost strictly better than a Fighter dip. And why waste feats for what you can get for little to no cost?True enough. I don't know why, but I was imagining something like psywarr 10/ardent 10 when I commented on the suggestion.

Lans
2010-07-23, 12:30 AM
Their buffing options aren't THAT great though. Outside of Greater Invis, Displacement, Haste and (if you learn it) Heroism/Greater Heroism, you can't really buff. And the first two are defeated by anything with True Seeing.

To be honest, the biggest thing besides Will-save-or-suck that I end up doing with my Beguiler is Solid Fog. Now that's an awesome spell. Beguilers can solve a limited amount of situations very efficiently, and can sort of contribute in others. They can't destroy your campaign. I'm not sure how Beguilers are above T3.
To a degree things like suggestion can cause a bit of a pain, but I think of them as top of T3 in power scale.
Along with Dread Necros

Cespenar
2010-07-23, 01:16 AM
Warrior 20
Expert 20
Adept 20
Adept 20

The Adepts could be a bit too powerful though, perhaps.

Greenish
2010-07-23, 01:17 AM
Warrior 20
Expert 20
Adept 20
Adept 20

The Adepts could be a bit too powerful though, perhaps.Adepts are tier 4, expert tier 5, warrior tier 6(?).

Cespenar
2010-07-23, 01:39 AM
I was "trying" to be humorous, but never mind.