Ranger help [3.5]

[eldon18]

We are about 11 level and we just had character make overs and im pretty good at melee optimization but rangers i am lost

the group is all combat orientated
Maximus 10 level Orc Uber-charger (me)
Rick 10 level Human Tripper
Flint 11 level Dwarf Tank
? 10 level archer

i want to help him i just dont know where to start(a anti mage build would be helpfull since there is no spell casting!)

All 3.5 books aloud (no Tome of battle)

[Eldariel]

Ranger Archer? Is he sure he wouldn't want to be a Cleric-or-Archivist Archer instead? There's also the obvious option of Swift Hunter. If neither, what book access are we talking about? 'cause 3.0 books would really help here, particularly Masters of the Wild, Sword & Fist & Silver Marches.

As a straight Ranger Archer, Ranger spells would be his greatest asset. But...bit more info on what exactly you want here and I can help you with the build. Do note that for "anti-mage", Cleric would really be much better as being able to Dispel & Counter is so key in actually defeating magic.

[eldon18]

NO MAGIC HE IS HORRIBLE WITH SPELLS:smallfurious:

strait damage or someone that can blow of a huge amount of arrows effeicently

a magekiller build would also be appriciated

[Eldariel]

What about 3.0 material? And Ranger-spells? 'cause without Ranger-spells, Ranger doesn't really do much for your archery capability. I can give you a decent martial Archer though, but it'll kinda draw everywhere. Swift Hunter is a reasonable option, but really limited in range.

[eldon18]

He never really had a good character as in damage means

show what you got

[Greenish]

NO MAGIC HE IS HORRIBLE WITH SPELLS:smallfurious:

strait damage or someone that can blow of a huge amount of arrows effeicently

a magekiller build would also be appriciatedHow about a soulbow? Shooty shoot and not much else.

[eldon18]

How about a soulbow? Shooty shoot and not much else.

what book is it from ive never heard of it

[Critical]

Use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124336) great ranger fix?

[Boci]

NO MAGIC HE IS HORRIBLE WITH SPELLS:smallfurious:

strait damage or someone that can blow of a huge amount of arrows effeicently

a magekiller build would also be appriciated

Swift hunter archer with FE (arcanist). Here's the handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0 Works well with a level dip as a cleric, but does not need to cast spells (just turn undead to be able to move more freely via travel devotion).

Play style is pretty simple: Moves at least 20ft, rapid shot.

Complete Champion also gives a ranger bonus feats in return for their spell casting ability.

[eldon18]

Use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124336) great ranger fix?

sorry DM wont let us use the tome of battle i forgot to minchin it

there is maneuvers so i cant use it

[Greenish]

what book is it from ive never heard of itComp. Psionic and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2).

[eldon18]

Swift hunter archer with FE (arcanist). Here's the handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0 Works well with a level dip as a cleric, but does not need to cast spells (just turn undead to be able to move more freely via travel devotion).

Play style is pretty simple: Moves at least 20ft, rapid shot.

Complete Champion also gives a ranger bonus feats in return for their spell casting ability.

he wants to do as much damage as possible and that doesnt seem like a effective way (certainly 2nd choice though)

what about this arcane archer it seems decent

[Boci]

he wants to do as much damage as possible and that doesnt seem like a effective way (certainly 2nd choice though)

Near full BAB +1 extra attack at full BAB thanks to rapid shot, with scalling damage bonus from skirmish to each arrow, plus favoured enemy sometimes.


what about this arcane archer it seems decent

1. Requires spells. 2. Its not decent. It horrible.

[eldon18]

Near full BAB +1 extra attack at full BAB thanks to rapid shot, with scalling damage bonus from skirmish to each arrow, plus favoured enemy sometimes.



1. Requires spells. 2. Its not decent. It horrible.

duskblade gives you spells and you keep full BAB

[Greenish]

he wants to do as much damage as possible and that doesnt seem like a effective wayIt's more effective than most. A tricked out volley archer might outpace it, but that's about it.

[Boci]

duskblade gives you spells and you keep full BAB

For damage dealers you cannot go much better than duskblade, but they use spells and are melee, which is not what you asked for.

[eldon18]

For damage dealers you cannot go much better than duskblade, but they use spells and are melee, which is not what you asked for.

with a one level dip you get the spells needed for arcane archer

i think this soulbow is pretty good

[Boci]

with a one level dip you get the spells needed for arcane archer

Not much though. Those spells are unlikely to last all day, and arcane archer does not advance casting.Also, greater magic weapon replicates half its class features, and the remaining ones aren't too good either.

[mobdrazhar]

i would second the soul bow as they make better archers than a ranger... and no need to pay for bows or ammo.

if looking for anti magic i would possible suggest taking lvls in occult slayer

[ericgrau]

So without spells he gets 2 bonus feats, favored enemy damage that only works some of the time and evasion. A straight fighter would get 6 bonus feats. He also gets 4 feats from levels, 5 if human.

Or better yet since there's no one to buff him try Elf fighter 6 / wizard 1 / arcane archer 3. Normally you'd use greater magic weapon instead of arcane archer, but nobody can cast it. Feats would be weapon focus, weapon specialization, point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot and ranged weapon mastery (from complete something I think). You might need multishot as a pre-req. If it's not too complicated for him he could get another splatbook PrC instead, as long as it gives him something good that he'll use. The monster manual has an elf subrace that would give him an extra point of damage.

For equipment, assuming standard level 11 wealth, get boots of speed, bracers of archery, a +1 bow with +2 worth of damage enchantments (e.g., holy, if all the monsters are evil). Get regular, adamantine, cold iron and silver arrows. Get a +1 mithril shirt, a +1 buckler (can use with a bow), a +1 ring of protection, a +1 amulet of natural armor and gloves of dexterity +2. He could also get an amulet of health +2 instead of the natural armor, or I think both in one item with Magic Item Compendium rules.

[eldon18]

well with a manyshot and feat the swifthunter build is pretty good too

rapid shot says you need to take a full attack means you cant move

[ericgrau]

But you have to move 10 feet each round to get skirmish? Isn't that supposed to be underpowered without cheese to move and get full attacks? Hmm let's see 18 damage and 5 attacks (3 at full BAB), or 36 damage and 1 attack. Ya, I think you're better off with full attacks. EDIT: Looked at the guide and they suggest cheese. OTOH if you are a real ubercharger it'll be par for your group and totally acceptable.

[Boci]

well with a manyshot and rapid shot feats the swifthunter build is pretty good too

Just a warning that you cannot use those two together, its either rapidshot or many shot. But at level 10, a scout 4 / ranger 5 / cleric 1 would be getting 3 attacks with rapid shot, each one getting an extra +5d6 from skirmish.


But you have to move 10 feet each round to get skirmish? Isn't that supposed to be underpowered without cheese to move and get full attacks?

The ability to move and full attack is not cheesy. It possible with manyshot, but a dip into cleric for travel devoption is generally better.

[Greenish]

But you have to move 10 feet each round to get skirmish? Isn't that supposed to be underpowered without cheese to move and get full attacks?Yeah, if you only get one attack it sucks, but I wouldn't call getting a way to full attack and move for your swift hunter cheese: it's pretty much what you need to be effective.

[eldon18]

Yeah, if you only get one attack it sucks, but I wouldn't call getting a way to full attack and move for your swift hunter cheese: it's pretty much what you need to be effective.

what would this cheese that you speak of for a swift hunter

[ericgrau]

What you need to be effective, but probably not what they intended when they made the scout class. If you need a feat/dip from another book to pull it off, then something smells fishy. Also strictly better than the alternative, which should set off gouda alarms. But again, if they already have an ubercharger it may be no big deal in their particular group.

[Greenish]

what would this cheese that you speak of for a swift hunterTravel Devotion (CChamp) generally, but Person_Man has a complete list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

[Edit]:
What you need to be effective, but probably not what they intended when they made the scout class.Things do not always work as WotF intended.
If you need a feat/dip from another book to pull it off, then something smells fishy.What kind of cheese smells fishy?
Also strictly better than the alternative, which should set off gouda alarms.Improvement ≠ cheese. There are plenty of things strictly better than the alternative, yet not very good, let alone abusive.

[Boci]

What you need to be effective, but probably not what they intended when they made the scout class. If you need a feat/dip from another book to pull it off, then something smells fishy. Also strictly better than the alternative, which should set off gouda alarms.

Just no. The fact that there are better options can just mean the lesser one was underpowered. Improved toughness is better than toughness. Does that mean I. Toughness is cheesy?

[Greenish]

Just no. The fact that there are better options can just mean the lesser one was underpowered. Improved toughness is better than toughness. Does that mean I. Toughness is cheesy?You edit-ninja me, I edit ninja you. Ha!

[eldon18]

WOW!

thats some stinky cheese so thats the the winner

our DM lets us use all the cheese
Tank AC:53 (when fighting defensivly)
Tripper 15 to tripp no buff
Uber-charger 864+6d6

The ranger really needs all the cheese he can get

[Gnaritas]

Can any of them fly?

[Eldariel]

For a martial archer, try something along the lines of:

Ranger 4/Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Wildrunner [RotW] 2

Then take some ACFs. Use Targetteer Fighter [DR310] and pick up Arrow Storm along with Greatbow Proficiency. Also, use the Hit'n'Run Fighter substitution [Drow of the Underdark]. Then, take Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and Arcane Hunter [Complete Mage] to get Favored Enemy: Arcanist.

Finally, trade away Ranger's Animal Companion for Solitary Hunter [DR347] (basically, you get Favored Enemy bonus on To Hit also), Ranger's Wild Empathy and such for Speaks with X [Complete Champion] and you can also trade away Ranger's spellcasting (which is incredibly powerful, but sounds like you don't want it) for bonus feat as per Champion of the Wilds [Complete Champion].


Max out your Dexterity and get a Splitting [Champions of Ruin] bow. For feats, Woodland Archery [Races of the Wild], Ranged Weapon Mastery [Player's Handbook II], Extra Rage [Complete Warrior] and Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion]/Educated [Player's Guide to Faerun - Eberron Campaign Settings - Ghostwalk]. You'll obviously want Flaws. Oh, and obviously the PHB feats in Rapid Shot and Precise Shot. Max out Knowledges for identifying creatures (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/The Planes/Religion) and Spot and you'll be good.

Future levels in Ranger, maybe with two levels of Stalker of Kharesh [Book of Exalted Deeds] picking up Nemesis: Evil. Boots of Speed too, and Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance along with Collector of Stories. This gives you 14 Ranks + Int + 5 Scrolls + 5 Collector on your Knowledge-checks for Knowledge-devotion giving you a fair chance at +5ing it.


So, for example:
e.g. Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) (Wildrunner needs Elf)
Dex > Str > Int > Con > Cha > Wis

Ranger 1 - PBS, Precise, Education (two Flaws)
Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
Targetteer 1 - Knowledge Devotion, Greatbow Prof, Weapon Focus
Barbarian 1
Targetteer 2 - Arrow Storm ACF
Targetteer 3 - Extra Rage
Targetteer 4 - Weapon Spec
Ranger 3 - Endurance
Wildrunner 1 - Ranged Weapon Mastery
Ranger 4 - Woodland Archer
Wildrunner 2

Whirling Frenzy + Primal Scream (each usable ~3 times per day, depending on your Cha - assuming 10 here) give a composite of +6 Str and +6 Dex. Knowledge Devotion averages +4 - +5 To Hit & Damage. Ranged Weapon Mastery & Co. give +3 To Hit & +4 To Damage. If miss, +4 more To Hit.

You have -9 To Hit total from Whirling Frenzy, Arrow Storm and Rapid Shot. In exchange, you get 4 extra attacks on your highest attack bonus. Boots of Speed add 1 more. You'll end up with 6 attacks at your highest attack bonus, and one at +6, one at +1 as per 11 BAB. These are all doubled by Splitting for a total of 16 attacks.

This leads to composite:
11 BAB + Dex + Weapon Enc + 3 + 3 + 4/5 - 9 = 11 + Dex + Weapon Enc + 1-2 To Hit.

Each attack will deal:
2d8 (get Strongarm Bracers) + Str (+6 from Rages) + 4 Ranged Weapon Mastery + 4-5 Knowledge Devotion + Weapon Enhancement = 2d8 + 11-12 + ~6-7. 9 + 17-19 = 26-28 average. Or average 27. Favored Enemy adds a bit to that. With all hits, it'd be ~432 damage per turn, which while not as much as a Charger's, is still enough to kill most things in one volley and more importantly, can be done at any range.

Get Seeking bow at some point, along with Phasing [DR330] arrows and one can pretty much shoot anywhere. Also, eventually getting a Splitting Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is prudent. You'll definitely want to pack some Force [MiC] arrows and probably get a Force [MiC] Bow next if not getting Energy Bow; Force solves lots of issues like Damage Reduction, Wind Walls and other annoyances, not to mention gives you the chance to actually hurt casters.


It's pretty cheap to make the bow out of Dragonbone so the range increment is something in the neighborhood of 170'. Distance Arrows would go for 340', maxing out at 3400'. Thanks to Woodland Archer, hitting at that range isn't even all that difficult; after 3 misses, you still have 13 hits left at +12 over the original, meaning +2 and no increments.


Mind you, this was done with only 3.5 materials (Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper and 3.0 printing of Order of the Bow Initiate are quite good for archers) and without using any real cheese, or spells (which would notably increase the power we can access; even just Ranger-list). It's merely A Solid Archer. Further additions would include Stalker of Kharesh + Nemesis, and Exotic Weapon Master for Close-Combat Shot (also worth considering Exotic Trip as it apparently works with ranged or melee weapons). Aptitude + Hand Crossbows would be real "cheese", but Aptitude is in ToB so that road is closed. This should get you far enough though. Also, dip in Cloistered Cleric for Travel + Law Devotions seems like a must down the road, once you want some more To Hit.

EDIT: Oh, and within 30' you get Dex to Damage vs. Flat-Footed foes. Get some ranks in Hide; iz nice.

EDIT#2: And I kinda assumed Wildrunner's "Primal Scream" is different from Rage by virtue of being Supernatural, but if not, Wildrunner could be replaced with 1 level of Cloistered Cleric for Devotions, & 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master for Close-Combat Shot. But again, I find a reasonable argument can be made that Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) only excludes other Rage-variants. The kind of "Ask the DM"-thing though.

Giving up Primal Scream, Scent and Fast Movement is kinda annoying, but Law Devotion makes up for the lost To Hit, Travel Devotion is just good, and Close-Combat Shot comes up a lot in the most unlikely circumstances. Then just two more levels of Ranger (Manyshot, improved FE, etc.), two levels of Stalker of Kharesh, and then some more of whatever. Maybe just crap that grants bonus feats; Martial Rogue, Monk, Psychic Warrior, the like.