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thompur
2010-07-20, 08:58 PM
Reflex, Fortitude, Will.

I always consider my Will Save as my most important.
Miss a reflex save, lose HP. ouch, but if you still have HP after, you can go on.
Miss a Fortitude save, yeah, you could die, or be petrified, or paralysed.

Miss a Will save, lose control of your mind, will, or soul. This seems worse than the other two fates.

What do you think? Are they all equally important?

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-20, 09:02 PM
It depends on your DM. One of DMs likes throwing a lot of fireballs, so Reflex is pretty important. Another one uses a lot of hold persons, so Will is important in his games.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-20, 09:07 PM
If you don't take DM idiosyncrasies into account, you're right. Fail a Ref save, you're hurt; fail a Fort save, you die; fail a Will save, your party dies.

balistafreak
2010-07-20, 09:07 PM
In general:

Fortitude generally attacks your physical body. Fatigued, exhausted, nauseated, etc. And more, of course. Lots of good SoD material here.
Reflex generally attacks HP. Due to the Critical Existence Failure nature of HP, this is the least important save.
Will generally attacks your mind. More often than not these result in not merely debuffs but flat-out action denial, making these the most potent SoDs.

Therefore, save importance is generally ranked as Will>Fortitude>Reflex.

Optimystik
2010-07-20, 09:09 PM
The most important save is the one you can't cover for by other means.

For reflex - generally effects with a reflex save deal hit point damage. Therefore, having lots of hit points or some way to reduce damage obviates the need for a high reflex save.

For will - many effects with a will save are either mind-affecting, or trying to teleport you somewhere. The former can be defeated via mind blank or similar, the latter by anchoring yourself.

That leaves fortitude. Many fort saves are the "instant death" variety - and no other form of defense or save protects you from them. Others damage or drain your ability scores - not only bringing you closer to death, but making it harder for you to fight back or escape.

Therefore, I generally rank fort above the others.

Beelzebub1111
2010-07-20, 09:12 PM
It doesn't matter which one you pump, the DM will go after your weakest one anyways.

Also, I can think of several Save or (effectively) Die Will saves. Imprisonment, Binding, Hold Spells, Harm (almost), Symbol of Sleep...

Malakar
2010-07-20, 09:15 PM
I would argue that with many builds it's Fort/Will/Ref, since Fort has save or dies earlier, and less ways to be immune to it's save or dies, whereas Will save or dies are usually blockable via compulsion immunities and mind affecting.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-20, 09:18 PM
It doesn't matter which one you pump, the DM will go after your weakest one anyways.That's actually useful. See, you pump Fort and Will, make your weakest save Reflex, and the DM targets your weak save... which is just HP damage, rather than "You're dead" or "You're killing your fellow party members".

Optimystik
2010-07-20, 09:22 PM
That's actually useful. See, you pump Fort and Will, make your weakest save Reflex, and the DM targets your weak save... which is just HP damage, rather than "You're dead" or "You're killing your fellow party members".

Or "now you can get beat up by a housecat" or "you look so cute as a chinchilla!" or "enjoy your stay on the Negative Energy Plane."

Beelzebub1111
2010-07-20, 09:28 PM
That's actually useful. See, you pump Fort and Will, make your weakest save Reflex, and the DM targets your weak save... which is just HP damage, rather than "You're dead" or "You're killing your fellow party members".

That all depends on how many hitpoints you have.

Greenish
2010-07-20, 09:33 PM
That all depends on how many hitpoints you have.Well, it doesn't matter whether you die to hp damage or SoD once you're dead, but succeeding a save against SoD is usually pretty digital: either you make it and you're right as rain, or you don't and you die.

Ref saves rarely kill you outright unless you're at low hp, and usually still deal half of the damage on successful save.

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 09:41 PM
Saph actually did an interesting little study on this in RHoD a while back, and surprisingly, the most characters who died did so from failed ref saves. Granted, the way the mod is written, there are proportionally more ref saves to go around, but still...

You can say "I'll soak it up with HP", but fail too many ref saves and those HP disappear stunningly fast!

Jack_Simth
2010-07-20, 09:51 PM
That all depends on how many hitpoints you have.
Yes, it's not a recommended strategy for Elf Wizards.

However, a character at full health is reasonably expected to be able to soak one or two failed saves on Reflex effects in most cases, mostly regardless of level (although certain degrees of optimization change that). A character at full health, upon failing a Fort or Will save effect, is expected to be out of the rest of the battle in most cases past about level... what, three?

Greenish
2010-07-20, 09:53 PM
Saph actually did an interesting little study on this in RHoD a while back, and surprisingly, the most characters who died did so from failed ref saves. Granted, the way the mod is written, there are proportionally more ref saves to go around, but still...Did he chart out the relative frequencies of different types of saves? (I've read his commentary too, but here's hoping he actually ran a full tally of saves and compiled the data.)

Keld Denar
2010-07-20, 10:03 PM
SHE, and yes. Here is the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105483). Don't go posting in it though...

EDIT: Click the link within the link. This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5811489&postcount=361).

EDIT EDIT: Spoiler alert in links for those who still haven't played RHoD.

Boci
2010-07-20, 10:09 PM
SHE, and yes. Here is the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105483). Don't go posting in it though...

EDIT: Click the link within the link. This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5811489&postcount=361).

EDIT EDIT: Spoiler alert in links for those who still haven't played RHoD.

The problem with that is, whilst death is one of the worse things that can happen to you on a failed save, it is far from the only one, or the most common.

Gametime
2010-07-20, 10:12 PM
That leave fortitude. Many fort saves are the "instant death" variety - and no other form of defense or save protects you from them. Others damage or drain your ability scores - not only bringing you closer to death, but making it harder for you to fight back or escape.



Death Ward and similar effects protect against a lot of the effects that actually cause instant death. There are others that target Fortitude that Death Ward won't help with, but then there's also the occasional Will effect that isn't mind-affecting, and Death Ward comes online earlier than Mind Blank.

Personally, I think Will and Fortitude are close enough that any difference is likely to be inconsequential. If I had to choose between pumping one or the other, I'd pick Will more often just because more of my characters are going to have a high Constitution than a high Wisdom, so a decent Fortitude save is pretty likely even if I'm not shooting for it.

Greenish
2010-07-20, 10:17 PM
SHE, and yes. Here is the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105483). Don't go posting in it though...That's only deaths caused (directly) because of each save. Without giving the frequency at which characters had to make various saves, it tells us preciously little.

It seems also too neglect to mention which saves were caused because of failed ref save, and which resulted despite a successful save.

And then dismissing the Confusion-caused deaths, even though in a fight having one character killed by another (which cost two PCs' actions) is worse than just having one die.

[Edit]: Using those statistics shows us how the most common cause for PC death is a full attack from a dragon.

Malakar
2010-07-20, 10:47 PM
Indeed, RHoD is about Dragons eating people. Dragons cause lots of reflex saves.

The fact that more people would die from Ref saves from Dragons is not terribly surprising.

If I make a module with only Necromancers casting Finger of Death, and nothing else, I'm sure I can make Fort saves look important, but that's not terribly meaningful, when your biggest challenges are dragons, and they pull out reflex saves and full attacks, you are likely to die from that. If instead you were facing Slaads, who often feature Finger of Death at will, you might change your mind.

Tshern
2010-07-21, 01:35 AM
My money's on Will save. Simply put, while dying due to a failed Fortitude save most definitely sucks, a missed Will save can lead to losing control over your own character and I hate that even more. Nothing like building a nice character that subsequently dies, because he decided to attack the party Wizard after a Dominate Monster.

sambo.
2010-07-21, 02:27 AM
The most important Saving Throw is: The Next One You Have To Make?

Greenish
2010-07-21, 02:48 AM
The most important Saving Throw is: The Next One You Have To Make?No, it's The Last One You Lost A Character To.

Thurbane
2010-07-21, 02:52 AM
I'll go with Will as well. Fort is pretty bad, but Will tends to shut you down more often (even a simple Charm Person). Reflex is last on the list...unless you are exceptionally fragile in terms of HP, of course.

Side question: if you were going to jam 3 Wands into a Rod of Many Wands, and wanted one for each save type (Fort, Ref & Will), what combo would you put in there?

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 03:36 AM
I'll go with Will as well. Fort is pretty bad, but Will tends to shut you down more often (even a simple Charm Person). Reflex is last on the list...unless you are exceptionally fragile in terms of HP, of course.

Side question: if you were going to jam 3 Wands into a Rod of Many Wands, and wanted one for each save type (Fort, Ref & Will), what combo would you put in there?

Three Heightened Great Thunderclaps.

Why target one save each when you can target all three saves three time?

In all seriousness, though, reflex saves are hard to get into a wand, because only stuff like wall of stone can really work as a save or die (or, rather, save or be annoyed until you break out of the wall) so you don't have too many options, especially with low level spells. I guess Grease, Charm Person, and... I dunno for fort, there are plenty of options.

Killer Angel
2010-07-21, 04:05 AM
Saph actually did an interesting little study on this in RHoD a while back, and surprisingly, the most characters who died did so from failed ref saves. Granted, the way the mod is written, there are proportionally more ref saves to go around, but still...


Precisely. It's kinda the "DM's style" that must be taken into account.

Edit: no matter the frequencies of the different kind of ST, IMO Will and For are far more frustrating and "unfair" than Ref.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-21, 04:12 AM
I think WoTC (or at least the group who created Unearthed Arcana) consider Reflex to be the most important saving throw.

If you check the Traits list, you can get a trait that increases any one saving throw by one at the cost of decreasing another by one. The exception to this is that there are no traits that increase your reflex save in this manner.

~

Then again, perhaps this is because it is more difficult to boost Reflex than the others, but that's another discussion.

Panigg
2010-07-21, 05:40 AM
Will in my current party.

The DM loves throwing dominates, confusions and charms and as I am the party fighter with lots and lots of damage per round, I am always the first target.

Just yesterday I pumped my will from 5 to 10. 11>12 + steadfast determination + amulet of health +4.

Saph
2010-07-21, 06:02 AM
That's only deaths caused (directly) because of each save. Without giving the frequency at which characters had to make various saves, it tells us preciously little.

It seems also too neglect to mention which saves were caused because of failed ref save, and which resulted despite a successful save.

If I remember correctly, all or almost all of the save-related deaths were due to failed saves. Successful Reflex saves at low HP usually resulted in the characters being put to negatives and being healed up again later - hence, no death. Successful Fort and Will saves generally negated the effect.


And then dismissing the Confusion-caused deaths, even though in a fight having one character killed by another (which cost two PCs' actions) is worse than just having one die.

*sigh* I wish people would stop saying that. I counted the two Confusion deaths as half each, but even so, everyone kept using that as an excuse to dismiss everything else I said. I finally got so sick of it that I changed the count, but even so, I still had people telling me (with a straight face) that 2 deaths to Will saves and 9 deaths to Reflex saves meant that Reflex saves obviously didn't matter very much. Very frustrating.


Using those statistics shows us how the most common cause for PC death is a full attack from a dragon.

You're never going to get a perfect set of data with something like a roleplaying game. It's easy to pick out flaws and use those to justify disregarding something, but if you do you'll never catch false assumptions, and it turned out that one of those false assumptions was "Reflex saves don't matter, because you always have plenty of HP". It turns out that when you're fighting battles against dangerous enemies at low-mid levels, HP is a very finite resource.

Boci
2010-07-21, 06:11 AM
You're never going to get a perfect set of data with something like a roleplaying game. It's easy to pick out flaws, but if you do you'll never catch false assumptions, and it turned out that one of those false assumptions was "Reflex saves don't matter, because you always have plenty of HP". It turns out that when you're fighting battles against dangerous enemies at low-mid levels, HP is a very finite resource.

Fair enough, but what about save or suck affects where a failed save made characters more vulnerable to attacks, and thus lost more HP.

Saph
2010-07-21, 06:28 AM
Fair enough, but what about save or suck affects where a failed save made characters more vulnerable to attacks, and thus lost more HP.

It's happened in other campaigns, but generally, in our games, if a player gets hit by a sufficiently bad save or suck (say, Nauseated), they're smart enough to back off and let the other party members finish things. Hence it doesn't generally lead to a death.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 06:32 AM
If I remember correctly, all or almost all of the save-related deaths were due to failed saves. Successful Reflex saves at low HP usually resulted in the characters being put to negatives and being healed up again later - hence, no death. Successful Fort and Will saves generally negated the effect.I noticed afterwards that you mentioned them being failed saves, but was too lazy to edit. :smallsigh:
*sigh* I wish people would stop saying that. I counted the two Confusion deaths as half each, but even so, everyone kept using that as an excuse to dismiss everything else I said. I finally got so sick of it that I changed the count, but even so, I still had people telling me (with a straight face) that 2 deaths to Will saves and 9 deaths to Reflex saves meant that Reflex saves obviously didn't matter very much. Very frustrating.I'm not dismissing everything you said. I'm not even saying reflex saves are useless, but I remain unconvinced that they would be the most important ones.
You're never going to get a perfect set of data with something like a roleplaying game.True, but that doesn't mean that all results should be taken at face value.
It turns out that when you're fighting battles against dangerous enemies at low-mid levels, HP is a very finite resource.So are resurrections and actions in combat.

Saph
2010-07-21, 06:38 AM
I'm not even saying reflex saves are useless, but I remain unconvinced that they would be the most important ones.

I don't think they're necessarily the most important ones. I just disagree with the prevailing opinion (see the first ten posts in this thread) that you can always rank Reflex at the bottom of the pile.

I think people get too caught up on save-or-dies. Yes, they're nasty, but running out of HP kills you just as dead as a death effect, and the first tends to happen a lot more often than the second.

Psyx
2010-07-21, 06:41 AM
I normally view it will>fort>ref. But with a character with decent buffs (prot evil, mind blank, etc) I revise that to fort>will>ref


The only time I'd view reflexes as more important than fort would be on a character with a really dire fort save... which would tend to indicate not many HP; making every fireball a save or die!

jseah
2010-07-21, 06:42 AM
At low levels, certainly, the most efficient way for a character to kill you is to nova you. At higher levels (and higher CO) there gets to be too many "no" buttons. My friend's favourite spell in a L1 arena was Power Word: Pain for nearly garuanteed draw at minimum.

At low-mid levels a Sudden Maximized Flamestrike (with buffed CL) can easily destroy low level opposition that fail their save. (60 damage is more or less insta kill or crippling at level 6)

HP damage is generally worth it if you can kill in one or two rounds since immunity to HP death is difficult to get.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 06:45 AM
I don't think they're necessarily the most important ones. I just disagree with the prevailing opinion (see the first ten posts in this thread) that you can always rank Reflex at the bottom of the pile.Well, two of the first two posts disagree with that, but that'll rather reinforces your point. :smallamused: [Edit]: I meant, two of those ten first.

I think people get too caught up on save-or-dies. Yes, they're nasty, but running out of HP kills you just as dead as a death effect, and the first tends to happen a lot more often than the second.Save-or-sucks and save-or-dies end or significantly limit your combat options, unlike getting low hp. The latter doesn't make you feel quite so helpless.

Saph
2010-07-21, 06:48 AM
Save-or-sucks and save-or-dies end or significantly limit your combat options, unlike getting low hp. The latter doesn't make you feel quite so helpless.

Dying from having -10 HP, however, limits your combat options pretty drastically. And I find that if you tally up the numbers, death from HP damage tends to happen a lot more often than death from a save-or-die like Slay Living.

Boci
2010-07-21, 06:51 AM
It's happened in other campaigns, but generally, in our games, if a player gets hit by a sufficiently bad save or suck (say, Nauseated), they're smart enough to back off and let the other party members finish things. Hence it doesn't generally lead to a death.

Yes, but the fact that you can get nausiated figures into which is the most important save.

Saph
2010-07-21, 06:54 AM
Yes, but there are also a lot of other things that can happen to you on a failed will or fort save that immediatly limit / reduce efficiency of your options no matter how many hp you have, where as with reflex generally just does hp damage.

And that's the attitude I think is wrong - the idea that Reflex saves are "just HP damage" and you'll always have enough HP to shrug them off. Looking at the death roll from the games I've been in, "just HP damage" is exactly what you should be scared of, because that's what PCs usually die from!

Thurbane
2010-07-21, 06:57 AM
Majority of character deaths in 3.X games I've played in have been from HP damage...but this HP damage is often in large part due to limited actions or otherwise hampered performance from failing a save-or-suck, like Stinking Cloud or Slow, for instance.

Boci
2010-07-21, 07:04 AM
And that's the attitude I think is wrong - the idea that Reflex saves are "just HP damage" and you'll always have enough HP to shrug them off. Looking at the death roll from the games I've been in, "just HP damage" is exactly what you should be scared of, because that's what PCs usually die from!

That is not what I was saying. I am saying you need to consider more than what you are most likely to die from to determine the most important save. This is particularly important if death is rare in your game. If no more than around 2 PCs per campaign, then you won't be too interested in which save has the greatest chance to kill you and more interested in which has the greatest chance to remove you from that one combat.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 07:06 AM
If no more than around 2 PCs per campaign, then you won't be too interested in which save has the greatest chance to kill youWell, give the mortality rate in Saph's campaign… :smallcool:

Boci
2010-07-21, 07:07 AM
Well, give the mortality rate in Saph's campaign… :smallcool:

I know, but that death rate was not typical. Is 2 death in an entire game typical? I do not know, but I would venture to say it is closer to the average than Saph's was.

Saph
2010-07-21, 07:18 AM
Well, our games tend to be higher difficulty. :smalltongue: The campaign journal in my sig averaged about one dead PC per session, too. (Although the death ratios were a bit different there.)

Jack_Simth
2010-07-21, 07:20 AM
*sigh* I wish people would stop saying that. I counted the two Confusion deaths as half each, but even so, everyone kept using that as an excuse to dismiss everything else I said. I finally got so sick of it that I changed the count, but even so, I still had people telling me (with a straight face) that 2 deaths to Will saves and 9 deaths to Reflex saves meant that Reflex saves obviously didn't matter very much. Very frustrating. Something that's bugging me about the statistics you compiled:
It tracks deaths from Failed Saves only. It doesn't list how many of which type of save were attempted, regardless of success/failure rate. That is something important to track, because it helps to account for DM style - suppose over the course of the game, you attempted 300 reflex saves, 30 Fort saves, and 30 Will saves. Obviously, you've got a DM that favors Reflex save effects, and if all saves are inherently equal, you'd expect ten times as many Reflex Save Deaths as you would Fort Save Deaths or Will Save Deaths, simply because under that DM, they're ten times as common; the statistics linked to seemed to lack such calibration. Likewise, it's also useful to know the "removed from combat" statistics, such as you mentioned with the Nauseated person withdrawing for the remainder of the battle to recover.

Now, granted, that's probably about three times as much work, but in order to be able to filter out the DM's / Module's preference on attack types and figure out which save is inherently the most dangerous, those are the type of secondary statistics that need to be tracked.

Boci
2010-07-21, 07:27 AM
Well, our games tend to be higher difficulty. :smalltongue: The campaign journal in my sig averaged about one dead PC per session, too. (Although the death ratios were a bit different there.)

Fair enough. I don't believe HP is meningless, in fact in my last game the only OC death on screen (we had a lot of flaky players) was from hp damage (it was my character who had betrayed the party and was uncovered, consequently getting a lance through my gut). Infact, saves in general were not important in that game, because the DM usually just choose melee monsters from the MM.

Saph
2010-07-21, 07:29 AM
Something that's bugging me about the statistics you compiled:
It tracks deaths from Failed Saves only. It doesn't list how many of which type of save were attempted, regardless of success/failure rate. That is something important to track, because it helps to account for DM style - suppose over the course of the game, you attempted 300 reflex saves, 30 Fort saves, and 30 Will saves. Obviously, you've got a DM that favors Reflex save effects, and if all saves are inherently equal, you'd expect ten times as many Reflex Save Deaths as you would Fort Save Deaths or Will Save Deaths, simply because under that DM, they're ten times as common; the statistics linked to seemed to lack such calibration.

But then, the number of Fort, Ref, and Will effects out there isn't inherently equal in the first place. So if you wanted to take what you're describing into account, you'd have to also decide what assumptions you're working off. Do you tally up every save-or-X effect in D&D? If so, do you calculate it by books? If so, which books? What about the fact that different DMs prefer different types of enemies, and that some spells/monsters are more popular than others?

It seems an impossible task to me, so I just stuck to Red Hand of Doom, since it's a relatively fixed sample to work off, it's sufficiently small that calculations are actually possible, and it's popular, so lots of other people have some basis for comparison.

Boci
2010-07-21, 07:31 AM
But then, the number of Fort, Ref, and Will effects out there isn't inherently equal in the first place. So if you wanted to take what you're describing into account, you'd have to also decide what assumptions you're working off. Do you tally up every save-or-X effect in D&D? If so, do you calculate it by books? If so, which books? What about the fact that different DMs prefer different types of enemies, and that some spells/monsters are more popular than others?

It seems an impossible task to me, so I just stuck to Red Hand of Doom, since it's a relatively fixed sample to work off, it's sufficiently small that calculations are actually possible, and it's popular, so lots of other people have some basis for comparison.

IF you planned it from the start, you could make a not of how many times a save was required, how many times the failed save resulted in death and possible how many times a failed save would have resulted in death. That would be more accurate, but also more work, and harder to do in retrospect.

Malakar
2010-07-21, 08:30 AM
But then, the number of Fort, Ref, and Will effects out there isn't inherently equal in the first place.

Yes, it pretty much is. It can be any ratio you want, because Casters can choose what type they bring to the battle.

So yes, if you play Dragon's only, Final destination, then HP damage and Ref saves are more important.

On the other hand, between CR 11 and 13, we have a wide choice besides Dragons.

You have Dragons, who are Ref save and HP, and you have Elder Elementals, which are the same.

But aside from that, you also have Greater Basilisk, fort or die. Glabrezu, at will confusion/chaos hammer/unholy blight, all will saves, Hezrouzo, same. Retriever, Petrification Eye fort or die, Barbed Devil, Fear effect and at will Hold Person, Will saves. Ice Devil, Fear, Slow, and Cone of Cold, Trifecta of saves. Devourer, Confusion at will, Frost Worm Trill will save, Ghaele, at will Hold Monster, also Prismatic Spray. Iron Golem Breath Weapon Fort save, Stone Golem Slow, Will save. Inevitable, Fear and Hold Person at will. Elder Black Ooze Parlysis, Fort save. Purple Worm, Poison. Roper, Fort save strands. Dread Wraith, Fort save.

So in that level range, other saves appear to be more common than reflex, if you use those monsters as much as you do Dragons.

But of course, Red Hand of Doom chooses not to use the vast majority of those monsters, possibly all, because it prefers Dragons for tough fights, and streams of hobgoblins for other fights.

Did you determine from your RHoD run that Favored Enemy Hobgoblin was the best Favored enemy too?

Saph
2010-07-21, 08:38 AM
Yes, it pretty much is. It can be any ratio you want, because Casters can choose what type they bring to the battle.

Casters can choose what spells they prepare != All saving throws are used in an equal ratio.

Killer Angel
2010-07-21, 08:49 AM
And that's the attitude I think is wrong - the idea that Reflex saves are "just HP damage" and you'll always have enough HP to shrug them off. Looking at the death roll from the games I've been in, "just HP damage" is exactly what you should be scared of, because that's what PCs usually die from!

Totally this.
When you analyze a single spell, you'll find out that direct damage is weak, if confronted with SoD / SoS spells.
But enemies have lots of way to hurt you, other than spells, and those involve almost always HP losses (thanks to physical attacks, etc).
So, when you're already losing hp for other reasons, in the course of a battle, even a "weak" damage spell, can kill you.

Boci
2010-07-21, 09:10 AM
Casters can choose what spells they prepare != All saving throws are used in an equal ratio.

My incredably crude analysis of crystalkeep's wiz/sorc spell list yields the following figures:

Fort: 49
Ref: 32
Will 125

Yeah, not sure how that happened. How did I do it? Copy pasted the whole file into a word document as it was, then followed these intructions:


1.Press Ctrl+H to display the Replace tab of the Find and Replace dialog box. (Click here to see a related figure.)
2.In the Find What box, enter the word or phrase you want counted.
3.In the Replace With box, enter ^&. This character sequence tells Word that you want to replace what you find with whatever you placed in the Find What box. (In other words, you are replacing the word or phrase with itself.)
4.If you are searching for individual words, make sure you click the Find Whole Words Only check box.
5.Click on Replace All. Word makes the replacements and shows you how many instances it replaced. That is the number you want.

and counted the following phrases:


, fort


, ref


, willneg


, will1/2


, willdis

Saph
2010-07-21, 09:14 AM
My incredably crude analysis of crystalkeep's wiz/sorc spell list yields the following figures:

Fort: 49
Ref: 32
Will 125

Yeah, not sure how that happened. How did I do it? Copy pasted the whole file into a word document as it was, then followed these intructions:

I suspect that's because a lot of buff and utility spells have got "Will Negates" on them. Mage Armour, Bull's Strength, Teleport, etc.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-21, 09:29 AM
Side question: if you were going to jam 3 Wands into a Rod of Many Wands, and wanted one for each save type (Fort, Ref & Will), what combo would you put in there?

I wouldn't. I would use Glitterdust, Enervation and True Strike.

Boci
2010-07-21, 09:30 AM
I suspect that's because a lot of buff and utility spells have got "Will Negates" on them. Mage Armour, Bull's Strength, Teleport, etc.

Good thinking, but nope. I checked and those spells have the following descriptions:

Mage Armor(PH p249)
<Conj(creat)[force], VSF(leather), 1StdAct, Touch,
1hr/lv(D)>
– Touched subject gains +4 Armor bonus to AC.

Bull’s Strength(PH p207)
<Trans, VSM(bull hair)/DF, 1StdAct, Touch, 1min/lvl>
– +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength.

Teleport(PH p292)
<Conj[teleport], V, 1StdAct, Touch>
– The caster (carrying Maximum load) & one
willing Medium-size creature per three levels
(or the Creature Equivalent) are instantly
transported up to 100 miles per level. The
destination must be pictured by the caster.
How On Off Similar
Familiar Target Target Area Mishap
Familiar 01-97 98-99 100 —
Studied 01-94 95-97 98-99 100
Visited 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100
Seen Once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100
False Dest.(d20+80) — 81-92 93-100

So it seems they quite sensible did not bother referencing a harmless save. It could be because some schools (enchantment and illusions for sure, and possibly adjuration) use only will saves, and in all fairness failing a save against silent image is not that bad, but still, the difference is very very big.

Gnaritas
2010-07-21, 09:38 AM
I guess in our games it's Fort Save.

Mostly because we play low-level games and Massive Damage rules apply (DC 15 Fort save when you lose damage greater than half your hitpoints).
Getting that DC15 ASAP is quite important. I think about 50% of the casualties came from a critical or major blow resulting in a failed massive damage save.

Saintheart
2010-07-21, 09:43 AM
The more I play D&D, the more suspicious I get that it's Will. For a start, casters have it in spades, and they've very effective ways at boosting the other saves if they have to -- it's just a weak spot that's been left out.

Will also protects you from fear. And fear is the mind-killer, especially if you optimise for it. Rogues get Improved Evasion, but they don't ever get Improved Fear Evasion.

Malakar
2010-07-21, 09:59 AM
{Scrubbed}

Beelzebub1111
2010-07-21, 10:10 AM
The spell thing is flawed, because it doesn't include every creature with a breath weapon, or every monster with poison.

Boci
2010-07-21, 10:17 AM
The spell thing is flawed, because it doesn't include every creature with a breath weapon, or every monster with poison.

Hence the words "incredably crude". I was just giving a rough idea of the distribution of saves casters can force their opponents to make. It is also worth noting that crystalkeep's list of spells is incomplete.

Optimystik
2010-07-21, 10:33 AM
Side question: if you were going to jam 3 Wands into a Rod of Many Wands, and wanted one for each save type (Fort, Ref & Will), what combo would you put in there?

*points to 3rd quote in sig*

Caphi
2010-07-21, 10:46 AM
I always felt like damage was underrated around here. I mean, it's not the best thing, but it scales on d6/level for casters. That's something resembling a 1/4-1/3 of a fighter with decent, but not sky-high, constitution (reflex half), carving everything but the con off of a rogue (but reflex nil), and putting a big dent in a caster (but reflex half + defenses), assuming they have HD somewhere around the blaster level.

Rogues and warlocks get d6/2 levels, which likewise evens out to a fairly decent fraction of unit HP overall, and the warlock's is even a roundly touch attack, so fairly reliable. (The rogue can get more iteratives, but he's subject to normal melee restrictions.)

It actually works out fairly well. Blasting hits damage units pretty hard, provided it makes it there, and it usually hits the big guys for a noticeable but not crippling chunk of their healthmeats. Yes, an SoD is generally more efficient, but you need to target those. Damage works on everyone.

(Buffs and field control also work on everyone, but I'm talking about direct offense types.)

Saph
2010-07-21, 10:48 AM
But thanks for ignoring the vast majority of my post.

No problem. Happy to do it again. :smallwink:

ericgrau
2010-07-21, 10:51 AM
I don't think Saph's experience was luck or even level, simply because reflex save effects tend to hit more targets.

Take a CR 16 planatar for example. In a group of other monsters they might reach EL 20 and fight a party of 18th level PCs. Its mass charm monster has a DC of 24. My vanilla core fighter build has a will save of 16 at level 18, while a cleric would have 21. Even the fighter saves 65% of the time and the cleric 90% , so 1/4 of the party is out of the fight; 1 PC. That's the best multi-target fort/will spell he has. He can also implosion for DC 25 fort or plane shift for DC 21 will. Chance of success is only 1/4-1/3 targeting a low save, near zero against a high save. 1/4-1/3 of a PC is out of the fight.

Now let's take a red dragon of the same CR. His breath weapon DC is 26 so most classes save half the time. At 12d10 it does 66 on average, 33 on a passed save, or 49 on average. The fighter has 166 HP while the wizard has 112 if he likewise made con his 2nd stat. So average party HP might be 139. The dragon has a hefty 50 foot cone and breath is a common opening move. Each of maybe 4 party members lose 1/3rd of their HP. So 4/3rd of a party member is killed. Obviously no one dies right away if they're at full, but all are in danger of further damage. Or if the party is already damaged from similar attacks or even regular attacks, someone will in fact die right away with the rest near death.

Spells might prevent either effect, so this is the same either way. Though IMO a circle of protection from X is easier than 4 resist energies. Or the PCs might face different monsters and those buffs will be useless. Likewise the CR 16 angel that casts as a 17th level cleric and the dragon b/c he's a dragon both receive under-CR'ed complaints. In short, reflex is most important if you're in a party, will or fort if you're alone.

Allanimal
2010-07-21, 10:59 AM
The most important saving throw to me is the one I rolled a "1" on last session.

My raging barbarian was dominated and killed 2 party members before he found the keg of beer and drunk himself unconscious as his rage ended.

I think the first crit that character ever confirmed was against his own party.

Flickerdart
2010-07-21, 11:02 AM
I don't think Saph's experience was luck or even level, simply because reflex save effects tend to hit more targets.

Take a CR 16 planatar for example. In a group of other monsters they might reach EL 20 and fight a party of 18th level PCs. Its mass charm monster has a DC of 24. My vanilla core fighter build has a will save of 16 at level 18, while a cleric would have 21. Even the fighter saves 65% of the time and the cleric 90% , so 1/4 of the party is out of the fight; 1 PC. That's the best multi-target fort/will spell he has. He can also implosion for DC 25 fort or plane shift for DC 21 will. Chance of success is only 1/4-1/3 targeting a low save, near zero against a high save. 1/4-1/3 of a PC is out of the fight.

Now let's take a red dragon of the same CR. His breath weapon DC is 26 so most classes save half the time. At 12d10 it does 66 on average, 33 on a passed save, or 49 on average. The fighter has 166 HP while the wizard has 112 if he likewise made con his 2nd stat. So average party HP might be 139. The dragon has a hefty 50 foot cone and breath is a common opening move. Each of maybe 4 party members lose 1/3rd of their HP. So 4/3rd of a party member is killed. Obviously no one dies right away if they're at full, but all are in danger of further damage. Or if the party is already damaged from similar attacks or even regular attacks, someone will in fact die right away with the rest near death.

Spells might prevent either effect, so this is the same either way. Though IMO a circle of protection from X is easier than 4 resist energies. Or the PCs might face different monsters and those buffs will be useless. Likewise the CR 16 angel that casts as a 17th level cleric and the dragon b/c he's a dragon both receive under-CR'ed complaints. In short, reflex is most important if you're in a party, will or fort if you're alone.
But that's just the thing. By removing one or more party members form the battle, the Planetar has just gained action advantage. By removing no party members from the battle, the Dragon has not gained any action advantage.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 11:05 AM
*points to 3rd quote in sig*You can actually put two wand chambers into a runestaff, at least to one which is explicitly a quarterstaff. Then you can wield two such staves.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-07-21, 11:06 AM
Fort all the way. There are so many ways to get around the effects of the other two. But the save or die is kind of hard to skate around. I would rather take full damage from a fireball or run away like a little girl for a round than fall in a crumpled mess of sticky goo.

ericgrau
2010-07-21, 11:11 AM
But that's just the thing. By removing one or more party members form the battle, the Planetar has just gained action advantage. By removing no party members from the battle, the Dragon has not gained any action advantage.

Unless we're not in the ideal situation for the PCs and someone died from the breath weapon instead. Even in the ideal situation it could happen later (and paying for the rez sucks more for the PCs either way). That and the planetar had 1 mass spell and 4+ single targets which from above you can see are FAR less useful (i.e, a PC isn't actually out of the fight 65%-95% of the time). If you were DMing, would you have selected mass charm as your first choice before reading the above? I only favored it b/c I already favor multi-target knowing what I do. Mass fort/will spells are rare, often they're SoS so those affected can still fight ok and/or have a small AoE so not everyone is hit. The planetar was lucky to even have that 1.

Flickerdart
2010-07-21, 11:36 AM
Unless we're not in the ideal situation for the PCs and someone died from the breath weapon instead. Even in the ideal situation it could happen later (and paying for the rez sucks more for the PCs either way). That and the planetar had 1 mass spell and 4+ single targets which from above you can see are FAR less useful (i.e, a PC isn't actually out of the fight 65%-95% of the time). If you were DMing, would you have selected mass charm as your first choice before reading the above? I only favored it b/c I already favor multi-target knowing what I do. Mass fort/will spells are rare, often they're SoS so those affected can still fight ok and/or have a small AoE so not everyone is hit. The planetar was lucky to even have that 1.
I notice that you don't bother to put up the build stats for Reflex saves, and instead average it out for some reason. You also don't mention elemental resistances (a ring of Resist Fire 30 is not very expensive, and elemental resistance spells are common party buffs). Dealing 33 damage to a few people at that level is pathetic, and if there's a Rogue in the crowd, he's going to avoid even that. It is far, far better to take 1 PC out of a fight (and not even with a mass save spell, but any old single-target spell) than it is to deal negligible damage. And it's not even hard to get AoO SoL spells - your run of the mill Confusion is only 4th level, and has a better area than Fireball. A CR 5 Boggart has it at will, Will DC 16, with a 30ft spread. Even the Wizard is going to be feeling that one.

ericgrau
2010-07-21, 11:44 AM
It's from my notes and I don't have an hour to blow on forums. A ring of energy resistance fire is a poor choice because you only have 2 ring slots and you also need to worry about cold and electricity. At 10% my WBL I'll pass. You'll also notice for both those reasons I get more and more terse as people post corner cases as if they ever actually happened rather than the reality of maybe <1% of the time.

Boci
2010-07-21, 11:46 AM
It's from my notes and I don't have an hour to blow on forums. A ring of energy resistance fire is a poor choice because you only have 2 ring slots and you also need to worry about cold and electricity.

MiC makes combining effects pretty cheap.


At 10% my WBL I'll pass. You'll also notice for both those reasons I get more and more terse as people post corner cases as if they ever actually happened rather than the reality of maybe 1-2%of the time.

How is having some base resistence to fire less realistic to having no protection against the most common energy type at higher level? I know wizards are not spontenous casters, but still.

Keld Denar
2010-07-21, 11:50 AM
MiC makes combining effects pretty cheap.

Only for basic qualities such as +stats, +deflection, +NA, etc. You could combine a +30 FR ring with a Ring of Protection +5, but you couldn't combine a +30 FR ring with a Ring of Freedom of Movement. I'd rather have a Ring of Spellbattle and a Ring of FoM as my 2 rings than anything else, for nearly every character I can imaging.

Boci
2010-07-21, 11:57 AM
Only for basic qualities such as +stats, +deflection, +NA, etc. You could combine a +30 FR ring with a Ring of Protection +5, but you couldn't combine a +30 FR ring with a Ring of Freedom of Movement. I'd rather have a Ring of Spellbattle and a Ring of FoM as my 2 rings than anything else, for nearly every character I can imaging.

Okay, my mistake. Hands of Glory will grant you another ring slot, but I'm even then ring of fire resistance would not be high on the list.

Draz74
2010-07-21, 12:06 PM
Only for basic qualities such as +stats, +deflection, +NA, etc. You could combine a +30 FR ring with a Ring of Protection +5, but you couldn't combine a +30 FR ring with a Ring of Freedom of Movement. I'd rather have a Ring of Spellbattle and a Ring of FoM as my 2 rings than anything else, for nearly every character I can imaging.

Actually, energy resistance is a "basic quality" too.

That doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculously overpriced on its own. Items of resist energy are a bad purchase regardless of whether they take a body slot. Better to just make the party Cleric actually prepare Mass Resist Energy.

2xMachina
2010-07-21, 12:22 PM
There's also the 50% price up option.

Keld Denar
2010-07-21, 12:38 PM
Resistance IS an option (ie, Cloak or Vest of Resistance). Energy Resistance is something else entirely, and not covered by the body slot affinity rules.

Sorry.

Optimystik
2010-07-21, 12:52 PM
If you're psionic, you can just get a Psionic Tattoo (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) of Energy Adaptation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptation.htm) Resist Energy 30 for almost all elements, whenever you need it, without a body slot. Add a capacitor and transducer, and you can recharge the tattoo with your own PP to keep it from fading after use.

Draz74
2010-07-21, 02:51 PM
Resistance IS an option (ie, Cloak or Vest of Resistance). Energy Resistance is something else entirely, and not covered by the body slot affinity rules.

Sorry.

*looks up table to double-check*

Nope. Look at the table on p234. It's got four lines for "resistance to energy" on it (5, 5 to 10, 10 to 20, and 20 to 30). They can be added to any Body, Ring, Shoulders, or Torso-slot item without the additional 50% price markup.

Theodoxus
2010-07-21, 03:25 PM
A running gag in my WoW guild is to ask the tank "What killed you?" and they answer "I ran out of hit points".

The topic question makes me giggle for the same reason... What's the most important Saving Throw? The one you failed and had to roll another character for.

Optimystik
2010-07-21, 03:30 PM
A running gag in my WoW guild is to ask the tank "What killed you?" and they answer "I ran out of hit points".

The topic question makes me giggle for the same reason... What's the most important Saving Throw? The one you failed and had to roll another character for.

I would imagine that *prevention* is the goal of the exercise here...

Theodoxus
2010-07-21, 03:35 PM
So that Monk 2/Favored Soul 2/Hexblade 4/Paladin 2/... character is what they're looking for? Best saves in the game, evasion, mettle, and gear out the wazoo to buff Cha and resist? Look ma! I cain't die! woo - mr ineffective strikes again.

Gametime
2010-07-21, 03:38 PM
So that Monk 2/Favored Soul 2/Hexblade 4/Paladin 2/... character is what they're looking for? Best saves in the game, evasion, mettle, and gear out the wazoo to buff Cha and resist? Look ma! I cain't die! woo - mr ineffective strikes again.

Take out the levels of Monk and Favored Soul, throw in some Blackguard and Binder, and you've got yourself a fairly potent debuffer who's really hard to hit with any debuffs himself.

Dr.Epic
2010-07-21, 03:48 PM
Miss a Will save, lose control of your mind, will, or soul. This seems worse than the other two fates.

Granted but you still survive and rolling up a new character is always a pain especially when everyone else has theirs.

Stompy
2010-07-21, 03:48 PM
The topic question makes me giggle for the same reason... What's the most important Saving Throw? The one you failed and had to roll another character for.

Same here.

I think Fort is the most important save, mainly because raising it higher (via CON) also gives you more hit points so you can survive the fireballs and other reflex save stuffs. (The other reflex stuffs are usually negated with a ring of Freedom of Movement, which is a must in most of the high-power games I end of getting into.)

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Reflex is the most important, because Necropolitan negates 90% of Fortitude and Will saves (not sure on the will though.)

Optimystik
2010-07-21, 03:50 PM
Granted but you still survive and rolling up a new character is always a pain especially when everyone else has theirs.

Also, Dispel Magic tends to be just a tiny bit cheaper than Raise Dead.

Superglucose
2010-07-21, 03:52 PM
Generally speaking it depends on the level. At low levels I'm more concerned about my fort save than my will (poisons are lethal at that level, and it's harder to restore off ability damage and level drain), but at medium levels I'm more concerned about my will than fort (Dominate will end my party's day pretty hard...). At high levels I'm not particularly concerned about any of them since I'm immune to most effects, and frankly you should look at the silliness of the save DCs on, say, an optimized dragon's "sleep" breath. My cleric couldn't make those will saves. Best be immune.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-21, 04:06 PM
Death concerns me more than being dominated.

Why?

Because I'm very ok with being turned on my party. Either way, Im out of the fight. But if I fail a will save, Im much more likely to be alive afterward.

Reflex also strikes me as more important than many potray. I've played under a lot of DMs, and I've never played with one that didn't use a fair amount of reflex saves. Iconic spells like fireball and lightening bolt are going to show up at some point. DMG and typical adventure traps are reflex save biased. Breath weapons are bound to show up at some point. Sure, a failed reflex save isn't usually AS bad as a failed fort save...but there's more of em.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-21, 04:34 PM
But then, the number of Fort, Ref, and Will effects out there isn't inherently equal in the first place. So if you wanted to take what you're describing into account, you'd have to also decide what assumptions you're working off. Do you tally up every save-or-X effect in D&D? If so, do you calculate it by books? If so, which books? What about the fact that different DMs prefer different types of enemies, and that some spells/monsters are more popular than others?

Why yes, it does vary. But to make the statistics useful outside other people running the same module in the same manner, you'll first need to undo the weighting effect that comes from the number of effects that have happened.

Once you find out that (just pulling numbers out of thin air, here), 25% of the Reflex save required events resulted in a PC death (25% out of that fight but not dead), 30% of the Fort save required events resulted in a PC death (20% out of that fight but not dead), and 20% of the Will save required events resulted in a PC death (30% out of that fight but not dead), you can then go back through and see which save will be more valuable to you when you have an overabundance of Nymphs with Blinding Beauty running, but otherwise have an even distribution of save events.


It seems an impossible task to me, so I just stuck to Red Hand of Doom, since it's a relatively fixed sample to work off, it's sufficiently small that calculations are actually possible, and it's popular, so lots of other people have some basis for comparison.
A bit more work, but far from impossible.