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Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 09:31 PM
/CONTEST CLOSED/


Can an e6 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html) party defeat a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)?

Can an e6 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html) party defeat a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)?

Can an e6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0BrdMi-oyc) party defeat a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)?



You can see the results and winners here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9078182#post9078182)

Recently in the World's Largest Dungeon thread, the following was posted:


any attempt to E6 will have to be a joke, because e6 characters can't actually do anything against Balors.

In general I think Malakar is right, but then, playgrounders are a special breed of insane... I am offering a tantalizing prize* to anyone who can prove that it's possible. And by "prove" I mean "convince me."

*Tantalizing Prize Package:

If you convince me your party could do it using the rules below, you will receive the following awesome compensation

FIRST PERSON TO CONVINCE ME:

1) I will praise you, eloquently, for no less than 200 words right here on this forum. You can sig that ****.

2) If the praise won't fit in your sig, I will make a digital image of the praise and make it fit.

3) Next time I run a PbP you get first dibs on being a character, unless you're a douche.

4) The setting of my next game will feature a deity named after your username. UH HUH! And that deity will be the GOD OF HEROES. I am serious. There will be clerics of You.

5) Your awesomeness will be added to my sig, bumping the Tarrasque Poop Challenge. You bump the tarrasque. Sorry Eldarin! Eldariel! Whatever your name was!

SECOND (and later) PERSON(s) TO CONVINCE ME:
You get the 200 words of praise and the digital image. (too many entrants)



Seriously folks it is called tantalizing for a reason.

Okay, here are the rules:

1) Real party. You must use a party that uses the four traditional roles of warrior, skill monkey, arcane caster, and divine caster. You do not have to use Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric. If you want to use Warblade, Factotum, Psion, Druid (or whatever) - feel free.

2) E6. You must follow the E6 rules (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0BrdMi-oyc). All 4 of your characters are ECL6.
edit: originally I ruled out LA. Miskidasith however is the spokesman of the common man, and convinced me to relent. As per normal E6 rules you may use lower point buy to buy off up to +4 LA/RHD instead of character levels. However I require you use 6 of your 25 bonus feats on Ability Training and Ability Advancement to offset the point buy.

3) Feats. Your characters have earned the XP of a 20th level character. Although they cannot advance past 6th level, they can gain an extra feat for every 5,000 XP they earn past 6th level. Your characters have 35 bonus feats apiece plus whatever they would normally earn from levels 1-6. Remember you still need prereqs, and many feats are no longer attainable because 6th level char's can't make the prereqs.

4) Items. Your characters can each have up to 760,000 gp worth of gear, however, only gear built with with level 3 spells or lower is priced normally. Gear built with 4th level spells or higher OR CL7+ costs 20x the listed price because it takes 20 mages to enchant it. No scrolls or wands or 4th level or higher spells are allowed because those spells cannot be cast that quickly.

5) All 3.5 books are legal (unless in conflict with e6 rules) and so are the special e6 feats and other stuff from the e6 thread (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html). I'll assume we're all mature adults here and no one has to be told that pun-pun doesn't count.
edit: revised definition of what is too cheesy has been posted below!

6) Explain. You must detail your party (as much or little detail on builds as you feel is important) and explain how your party can defeat a standard Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor). If you convince me, you win.



How Much Cheese is Too Much? In general, if your build simply uses a rules exploit by combining abilities from different sources, I consider it acceptable. If however it uses the same rules exploit over and over in a loop to gain much higher results than a simple use of the exploit could provide, You Have Climbed Pun-Pun's Staircase and your level of cheese is too much for this contest. The process is seen (for example) when using lucubration in a loop to gain 9th level spells at a low level, or by gaining taint over and over to power a character who is immune to the problems of taint. Practical optimization lasts all the way up to and upon the landing of Pun-Pun's staircase. But once foot is placed on step and railing is grasped in hand, You Have Climbed Pun-Pun's Staircase. :smallsmile:

OTHER QUESTIONS AND THEIR ANSWERS

Perhaps to avoid confusion (as with the LA+E6 discussion) we should agree on and link to a specific set of E6 rules for this challenge? I've found more than one.

The rules are as normal E6 (link in first post) plus the contest rules found in the first post. If something in the contest rules conflicts with normal E6, follow the contest rules. Specific trumps general, and this specific contest';s rules trump the general E6 rules in any case where the two differ.


Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?

It is probably against the spirit of E6 to count on having an artefact, but I'll allow it.

The closest parallel with a price is a continuous-use wondrous item with CL20. Looking at wondrous items that meet that description, the cheapest are about 76,000 gp. Multiply by 20 and you get a 1.52 million gp pricetag. So, if two of your four characters spend all of their WBL on the minor artefact, they could have it.


I don't think this challenge is really fair. The challenge is "Kill a Balor in E6" but then the rules get modified so LA isn't used (even though it seems well within the intent to use LA),

I tell you what Miski, if it's that big of a deal then go ahead and use up to +4 LA/RHD as per normal E6 rules. However you must dedicate 6 of the 35 bonus feats. You'll be using those on Ability Training for 3 statts and Ability Advancement for 3 stats to offset your lower point buy.

Also if your build wins you can expect some of the 200 words of praise to mock you for whining about the rules of a contest instead of trying to come up with a a clever entry that succeeds within the rules of the contest. But some of the 200 words will still be praise. Maybe even 100 or more!


This interests me, I am tempted to attempt to bulild a party, I have one question: Is dragon magazine allowed?

No. All 3.5e D&D WotC-published books are allowed, nothing else.

FINAL SUBMISSION LIST AT TIME OF JUDGING:
*Starbuck II's Spellward Sniper + 3 Chumps
awaiting team details

*Lhurgyof's Humorously Named Four
DEAD. Give details on equipment and tactics if this is a serious submission.

*Dextercorvia's "Poor Man's Lucubration 9ths" plus "Krau Sigil Cleric/Wiz" plus two chumps
Status: Pun-Pun's Ladder Good theoretical builds but definitely hits the ladder

*aje8's Wraithstrike Nova plus 3 chumps
Status: Pending; convince me you can survive several rounds and repeat your nova, plus survive the death throes.

*Awa's Chump with Astral Bomb Skellies, plus three more chumps
Points for Cleverness But the only member of your party still in combat with the Balor is a sad skeleton on the Astral Plane.

Lhurgyof's Diplomancer plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Show me a Diplomacy score of 58 will allow you to decisively defeat the Balor.

*Crazedloon's "Krau Sigil 9ths" plus four chumps
Ninja'd; and Ladder'd Again, brilliant theoretical build, but it's on Pun-Pun's ladder

*Swordguy's Fight Smarter Not Harder (four chumps with a sphere of Gygax)
Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan.

*Aethernox's Four Go In, Three Come Out
Status: Pending Looks like a complete plan

*Awa's Revised Chumps with Skellies and Dust of Sneezing
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

*Cespenar's Contract Killers (four Rog5/Assassin1's)
Status: Pending; You're assuming you can get your Hide and Move Silently to +58. Show me the feats & gear. You also assume you can boost your Fort save DC high enough that he will reliably (i..e more than half the time) fail with his +22 modifier. Show me the feats & gear.

*jseah's Abramelin and Three Chumps (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9013242&postcount=244)
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

*Biffoniacus_Furious' "That's Not Tinkerbell!" plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

*Tyndmyr's If You Like It Then You Shoulda Put an Orb on It
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

*Gaurd_Juris' The Saintly Order of Who Took My Vorpal Sword?
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

*Adumbration's Judge, Jury, and Executioner Plus One
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

*Ingus' Bye-Bye Balor
Status: DEAD; Brilliant use of items but your plan ends with banishing the Balor which was specified earlier as not counting as a victory.[/I]

*The Shadowmind's Skeleton Crew
Status: DEAD; Operating war machines requires a trained-only Profession (Siege Engineer) check as per the DMG, which default MM skeletons cannot make. You didn't offer a party to show how your necromancer could correct this. Basically 4 chumps walk proudly up to the Balor with 10,000 skeletons and 2500 siege weapons; two rounds later the Balor is on his cell phone asking his demon friends if they have any use for a skeleton army lead by 4 zombies with a look of shock and surprise frozen on their faces.

*monkey3's I-Team and the Van
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

*Lhurgyof's "It Worked for Arneson"
Status: DEAD; I love this submission but sadly I think the Balor would have them all dead before realising how cool the game is. So really the Balor is the one who misses out, but still.

*Eronai_Jantig's Fistful of Rays
Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan

*JeminiZero's "Guardian of Wings"
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

*dextercorvia's The Naenhoon Effect (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9010150&postcount=208)
Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan

Boci
2010-07-20, 09:48 PM
Initial thoughts: They would all want to be evil to avoid auto dying from blaspemy, and with 35 extra feats, they could just take roll with it until they have such a high DR that not even a crit will damage them. But even then, killing it will take so long the balor would easily be able to dominate each party member before then, or just teleport away.
Without breaking out at least some TO, I'm stumped.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-20, 09:49 PM
In theory, couldn't a Stunlock team (consisting) of a Spell-warped Sniper work?
Balors aren't immune to stun. They can make the spell have no save (the spell I'm referring to is Sand Blast).
The chance of hitting his touch AC isn't farfetched.

It has horriblely crappy range (15) and SR is an issue, but assuming you preparing only it or lots of spell slot orbs (pearls of power) you could keep doing it every round in hopes rest of party kills it.
One would hope a persistedly stunned target could be killed even by 6th lv characters.

Granted, that would be theory.

I'd assume the Sniper'd need some SR bypassing stuff (or just that array Resistance spell/Truecasting)

Boci
2010-07-20, 09:51 PM
In theory, couldn't a Stunlock team (consisting) of a Spell-warped Sniper work?
Balors aren't immune to stun. They can make the spell have save (the spell I'm referring to is Sand Blast).
The chance of hitting his touch AC isn't farfetched.

It has horriblely crappy range (15) and SR is an issue, but assuming you preparing only it or lots of spell slot orbs (pearls of power) you could keep doing it every round in hopes rest of party kills it.
One would hope a persistedly stunned target could be killed even by 6th lv characters.

Granted, that would be theory.

Can that be done by level 6?

Starbuck_II
2010-07-20, 09:55 PM
Yes, you need 3rd lv spells (doesn't require arcane which is good part).
You need Sandblast (Druid 1st) so you need one of the clases:
1) Spirit Shaman
2) Archivist (assuming he chooses it)
3) Druid

Archivist 5/Spellward Sniper 1 is 6th lv.

But I'm not sure what the other party members should do to kill the Balor. He has DR 15 meaning you'll need shocktrooper power attacking to hurt him or sneak attack as stunned denies dex to AC.

Tomorrow I'll design this theoretical party.

Boci
2010-07-20, 10:01 PM
Yes, you need 3rd lv spells (doesn't require arcane which is good part).
You need Sandblast (Druid 1st) so you need one of the clases:
1) Spirit Shaman
2) Archivist (assuming he chooses it)
3) Druid

Archivist 5/Spellward Sniper 1 is 6th lv.

But I'm not sure what the other party members should do to kill the Balor. He has DR 15 meaning you'll need shocktrooper power attacking to hurt him or sneak attack as stunned denies dex to AC.

Tomorrow I'll design this theoretical party.

You'll need to find +1d6 SA or SS as well. As for damage, swordsage with craven, shadowblade, deadly defence and assassin's stance do 2d6+3d6+1.5 strength modifier, + dex + 6 damage per hit.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-20, 10:02 PM
Right, you'd need Assassin's Stance which is our 6th lv feat.
Do feats come before you choose classes?

Boci
2010-07-20, 10:03 PM
Right, you'd need Assassin's Stance which is our 6th lv feat.
Do feats come before you choose classes?

I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.

Douglas
2010-07-20, 10:08 PM
I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.
Yes there is RAW on that, actually. PHB page 58. Choose class is the very first step of leveling up, so all prerequisites for a class choice must be satisfied by the previous level.

awa
2010-07-20, 10:09 PM
do you need to kill it or survive killing it because that explosion at the end will fry you if you don't have fire immunity

Lhurgyof
2010-07-20, 10:11 PM
Ah, poo. I'd love to be a diety. D:
Wazard: Lars Utguard; Human Wizard 6. He would prepare a lot of Touch of Idiocy's and such.
Priest: Marley, Man; Elven Druid 6. He likes wildshape and has a puma companion. Oh, and a magic yo-yo, man.
Beat 'em up: Thogg, the Bardbarian: Barbarian 5/Bard 1. Thogg Smash! Thogg have pounce!
Theif: Ith: Nezumi Rogue: Diplomacy, Bluff, Craven, you know the deal.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-20, 10:11 PM
I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.

Can we buy it?
Notice Shadow Hands add one maneuver from the Shadow Hand school up to 3rd. Stances are maneuvers for certaining things like prereqs.

It grants it as long as you wear them.
But maybe you are right, it probably refers to actual maneuvers not stances.

Wait, since ECL is used for E6, can you use Bloodlines for 2 extra levels (that grant nothing)?
Bloodlines would increase the Martial adept level for determining max maneuver learnable.

Boci
2010-07-20, 10:11 PM
Yes there is RAW on that, actually. PHB page 58. Choose class is the very first step of leveling up, so all prerequisites for a class choice must be satisfied by the previous level.

I am pretty sure that has been contradicted by PrC builds since then, but thanks for pointing that out.


Can we buy it?
Notice Shadow Hands add one maneuver from the Shadow Hand school up to 3rd. Stances are maneuvers for certaining things like prereqs.

It grants it as long as you wear them.
But maybe you are right, it probably refers to actual maneuvers not stances.

I'm not talking about maneuvers, but initiator level. Your build would only have one of 3, and you need 5 for assassin's stance.

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 10:16 PM
This Arcane Caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154237) is (I believe) E6 legal. He can do it. He has unlimited 9th level spell slots, and knows every spell on the beguiler list. Use WBL to learn some other Wizard spells (worth it even at 20x), and he'll be set.

For the roll of Healbot/Buffer, I believe I will choose a Wizard 5/Cleric1 (domains planning and undeath) with the following feats:

Flaw:Heighten Spell
Flaw:Earth Sense
1:Earth Spell
3:Improved Krau Sigil
Wiz5(bonus):Sanctum Spell
Cleric(bonus):Extra Turning
Cleric(bonus):Extend Spell
6:Extra Slot (gaining a 5th level slot)
E1:Extra Slot(gaining a 7th level slot)
E2:Extra Slot(gaining a 9th level slot)You can now cast 7th level spells.
E3:Arcane Disciple(Luck)
E4:Extra Spell(Miracle)
E5:Persist Spell
E6:DMM(Persist)
....Extra Slot(11th level slot) to taste

I'm not really good at building melee/rogue types, so I'll leave that to someone else.

aje8
2010-07-20, 10:18 PM
Question: Is it considered defeating the Balor if I can only kill him if my attack roll doesn't roll a 1? I don't know how to get around rolling a one in only 6 levels.

Also, is it possible for me to ambush this Balor and then gain a surprise round? Or do I need to pump my Initiative Modifier to +32 to win initiative even if he gets a natural 20 to my natural 1 on Initiative?(assuming the Balor can stop me given a round)

If it wasn't obvious, I'm envisioning a build that will kill the Balor in one momentous hit.

I'm thinking the 2nd level spell (Wraithstrike I think) to make my attack a touch attack. +15 to hit isn't hard even at level 6. Go first, and then deal 361 (A Balor's maximum hit points) or more damage in single attack. Seems possible, if difficult. I thought this could be done with Factotum working with only one other party member.... until I reread the restriction on Font of Inspiration.

awa
2010-07-20, 10:18 PM
okay here my plan not sure if its what you want but take a bag of holding and a portable hole throw the portal within 10 feet of the balor then throw the bag inside it.

every one evil to avoid blasphemy
use leadership if allowed and improved familiars with hands spread out as much as possible and hope 2 people live long enough to throw the items.

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 10:18 PM
I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.

Archivist can however cast Hunter's Eye. That should get him his SA for qualification.

awa
2010-07-20, 10:26 PM
all the evil characters should wear good aligned holy symbols in the hope of tricking it into wasting its first turn with a blasphemy

Lhurgyof
2010-07-20, 10:29 PM
Really, someone with diplomacy pumped up the ass can beat the balor.

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 10:33 PM
Tomorrow I'll design this theoretical party.

Watch out, Starbuck is on the job. This guy can shoot down like 50 Cylon ships and make a damn fine latte at the same time.



This Arcane Caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154237) is (I believe) E6 legal.

Nope. Mage's Lucubration is 6th level so it is neither available as a scroll nor in a spellbook.

Assuming you can get around that, can you explain to me how the guy can "technically and actually" cast 4th level spells in the first place?


Question: Is it considered defeating the Balor if I can only kill him if my attack roll doesn't roll a 1? I don't know how to get around rolling a one in only 6 levels.

Sure. The dice go against everyone sometimes. A 30th level party can lost to a Balor with enough bad rolls. But an e6 party with a strong chance of victory is something to behold.

Of course if your plan is to hit it with a one-shot nova and rolling a 1 on that oneattack roll means you lose, I don't think you have a "strong chance."


Also, is it possible for me to ambush this Balor and then gain a surprise round? Or do I need to pump my Initiative Modifier to +32 to win initiative even if he gets a natural 20 to my natural 1 on Initiative?(assuming the Balor can stop me given a round)

I'd like to see a plan to survive round 1 in case you lose initiative. But if you can show me that there is absolutely, positively no way the Balor could detect you before you strike... kudos.


If it wasn't obvious, I'm envisioning a build that will kill the Balor in one momentous hit. I'm thinking the 2nd level spell (Wraithstrike I think)....

I would need to see that you can do this multiple times in case your initial nova fails and a plan to survive long enough to do so.


okay here my plan not sure if its what you want but take a bag of holding and a portable hole throw the portal within 10 feet of the balor then throw the bag inside it.

Points for trying but there is no guarantee this will help. The wording on the interaction of these pocket spaces is vague enough that it is basically DM's call what happens. If your plan is to ask the DM to rule that the Balor dies then your plan is lacking a certain.... planniness.


all the evil characters should wear good aligned holy symbols in the hope of tricking it into wasting its first turn with a blasphemy

You have a promising career ahead of you, young strategos.

Malakar
2010-07-20, 10:35 PM
As the instigator of this challenge, I will challenge anyone who the OP considers successful to play against a Balor encounter.

But that said, as far as beating the Balor, my opinions are:

1) You have to be able to plausibly beat it's Spot and Listen checks of +38 to get surprise rounds, also remember the True Seeing.

2) While Blasphemy is a big deal, let's not forget the other things it can do, for starters, DC 26 Firestorm CL 20. So if you can't survive about 70 damage, or 35 and show us an impressive ref save (or have improved evasion, or have evasions and ref save) you should probably work on that too.

3) As for declaring victory, if you can run three consecutive fights against the Balor encounter, and win 2 of them, you are my hero and have won the challenge as far as I am concerned.

4) Anything casting like 5th level spells or higher is probably more cheesy than I care about, because I'm pretty sure the point of e6 is to limit PCs, and so any cheese that straight up exceeds the limits intended probably wouldn't be allowed by any DM that actually choose to play e6.

Siosilvar
2010-07-20, 10:37 PM
Does victory entail surviving the death throes of the Balor? Because otherwise you'll need about 30 Toughness feats apiece.

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 10:38 PM
I welcome Malakar to the thread, and promise not to certify a winner unless I really believe it has a shot of beating his Balor fight 2 out of 3 times.

I can't require the winner to fight him but would urge them to do so to entertain us all and prove their God of Heroes status.


Does victory entail surviving the death throes of the Balor?

YUP!

Boci
2010-07-20, 10:40 PM
2) While Blasphemy is a big deal, let's not forget the other things it can do, for starters, DC 26 Firestorm CL 20. So if you can't survive about 70 damage, or 35 and show us an impressive ref save (or have improved evasion, or have evasions and ref save) you should probably work on that too.

That is a problem. Fire substype would probably be the only way to surivive that. Is LA allowed? What about fire souled: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf (page 55)

Starbuck_II
2010-07-20, 10:46 PM
Does victory entail surviving the death throes of the Balor? Because otherwise you'll need about 30 Toughness feats apiece.

As long as not a total TPK, I assume we win. Blink would protect versus Death throws because it is an area attack

If Death throws is an area attack then you take 1/2 damage. If you succeed on the save that is only 25 damage.

Malakar
2010-07-20, 10:50 PM
That is a problem. Fire substype would probably be the only way to surivive that. Is LA allowed? What about fire souled: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf (page 55)

You should be aware that Firesouled is in fact a +3 not +1 LA, and that Crystal Keep is just wrong there.

But other than that, using LA is fine, though it does count against the six part of your e6.

EDIT: Death throes is area, so you can also have Evasion, and just ignore the whole thing.

And indeed, for my considerations of winning, a dead Balor and one living member of the party of four is acceptable.

awa
2010-07-20, 10:54 PM
modification to my plan skeletons suicide bombers wearing bags of holding and they stick portable holes in them when within 10 feet of the balor

"If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process"

skeletons should be dressed in full body concealing robes to hide their undead nature

the balor does not have an easy way out of the astral plane the rules unlike those for the rope trick are not particularly vague and their is no save.

evil people only to protect you from blasphemy. Have high dex, improved initiative. protection from energy fire on are suicide bombers keep every one as far away from each other as possible.

If you survive long enough to act send in one skeleton in with out bags to take the attack of opportunity

Milskidasith
2010-07-20, 10:55 PM
You should be aware that Firesouled is in fact a +3 not +1 LA, and that Crystal Keep is just wrong there.

But other than that, using LA is fine, though it does count against the six part of your e6.

EDIT: Death throes is area, so you can also have Evasion, and just ignore the whole thing.

And indeed, for my considerations of winning, a dead Balor and one living member of the party of four is acceptable.

If I read it right, LA actually affects your PB in E6, not your level. You're kind of modifying the rules to make it harder for the party.

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 10:56 PM
Nope. Mage's Lucubration is 6th level so it is neither available as a scroll nor in a spellbook.

Assuming you can get around that, can you explain to me how the guy can "technically and actually" cast 4th level spells in the first place?


A Beguiler1/Wizard5 with versatile spellcaster can sack two third level slots to cast any spell he knows of 4th level, so he has the technical ability to cast 4th level Wizard spells, and therefore can choose to learn one when he levels. Also, he can actually cast them off of the Beguiler list. Versatile spellcaster is worded really poorly, but these are RAW uses.

Re:Mage's Lucubration, good catch, but buying the Mage's Lucubration was just a cleaner way of doing it. He can technically cast 6th* level spells at this level (ECL6), so he can learn Mnemonic Enhancer, and Mage's Lucubration for leveling, and then buy scrolls of Haste and Phantom Steed instead.

*After learning Mnemonic Enhancer, and before choosing his second spell, he begins the process, only choosing his second spell, when he gets to the point that he needs it.

Is there a problem with the Divine build?

ex cathedra
2010-07-20, 10:58 PM
I feel that this wouldn't be that hard, honestly. I just have to hope that I beat someone else to the builds.

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 10:58 PM
"If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process"

Ah, I apologize then, I thought it was less well defined than that.

OK, now you have a Balor who is alone on the Astral plane. Once you catch up with him there, how do you defeat him? :smallsmile:

And agreed with Malakar - 1 out of 4 party members surviving = WIN.

Swordguy
2010-07-20, 11:01 PM
Technical question: when you say that 4th level or higher scrolls cannot be used because "they cannot be cast that quickly", what about using them outside of combat? Or is it that scrolls of 4+ level spells simply don't exist in the world in question?

awa
2010-07-20, 11:02 PM
so we have to actually kill it not get rid of it?

Boci
2010-07-20, 11:04 PM
If I read it right, LA actually affects your PB in E6, not your level. You're kind of modifying the rules to make it harder for the party.

Yeah, it just drops your PB to a pitiful 10, but you're still level 6. It was probably just a mistake on Malakar's behalf.

What is the situation with custom gear?

crazedloon
2010-07-20, 11:06 PM
improved krau sigil, earth spell gives you effective spells of 2 levels higher than you can cast so at level 5 that gives you "5th" level spells. Extra slot feat gives you an extra spell slot of up to 1 level lower than you highest level spell (4th level slot) With the new slot your highest level slot is now 6 (2 higher than 4) repeat until you have 10th level slots (7 of your feats) you now have 28 feats to spend on spells you need.

Can you kill a balor with 9th level spells in a normal game? how about 28 9th level spells?

all you need is improved
krau sigil
earth sense
highten spell

to get the "combo" working

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 11:08 PM
improved krau sigil, earth spell gives you effective spells of 2 levels higher than you can cast so at level 5 that gives you "5th" level spells. Extra slot feat gives you an extra spell slot of up to 1 level lower than you highest level spell (4th level slot) With the new slot your highest level slot is now 6 (2 higher than 4) repeat until you have 10th level slots (7 of your feats) you now have 28 feats to spend on spells you need.

Can you kill a balor with 9th level spells in a normal game? how about 28 9th level spells?

all you need is improved
krau sigil
earth sense
highten spell

to get the "combo" working

You sir have been Wiz'd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8968543&postcount=14).

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 11:09 PM
If I read it right, LA actually affects your PB in E6, not your level. You're kind of modifying the rules to make it harder for the party.

I do realise that, but the problem is that in this thought exercise the normal E6 LA rules would just be abused to allow ECL 12 builds (6 levels of LA bought off with point buy, plus 6 actual levels). When you're giving someone 35 bonus feats they can spend a bunch on the E6 ability feats and offset the point buy.

In order to limit cheese, LA is counted against ECL6 as per the normal rules.

ap

Note to all: I haven't seen many 4 member parties posted yet though I have seen a lot of setups that basically involve 1 uber character and presumably the other 3 ppl could be any chumps at all. That is rules legal, but it will take me a while to read through and eval them. Your odds will be better if you describe your tactics for dealing with the Balor's abilities - not just the build. Assuming I can access descriptions of all your feats/classes/abilities (or that I have time to compare them to the Balor's abilities) is a big assumption.

re. custom gear: if you can afford it and make it, and it doesn't use 4th level or higher spells, go for it. For every 5000 XP you spend you lose a bonus feat. If you need to include spells 4th level or higher you cannot make it yourself and it costs 20x the list price.

re. scrolls - no scrolls 4th level or higher, sorries.

Glimbur
2010-07-20, 11:11 PM
Question: Is it considered defeating the Balor if I can only kill him if my attack roll doesn't roll a 1? I don't know how to get around rolling a one in only 6 levels.

Luck feats from Complete Scoundrel can let you re-roll. Fortuitous Strike, for example, lets you reroll an attack roll. You might have to burn many feats to get enough rerolls to be really useful, but it's an option.

Or, dip cleric for the Luck domain.

Boci
2010-07-20, 11:12 PM
I do realise that, but the problem is that in this thought exercise the normal E6 LA rules would just be abused to allow ECL 12 builds (6 levels of LA boguth off with point buy, plus 6 actual levels). When you're giving someone 35 bonus feats they can spend a bunch on the E6 ability feats and offset the point buy.

In order to limit cheese, LA is counted against ECL6 as per the normal rules.

ap

Fair enough I guess. What about custom items?

Milskidasith
2010-07-20, 11:13 PM
I do realise that, but the problem is that in this thought exercise the normal E6 LA rules would just be abused to allow ECL 12 builds (6 levels of LA boguth off with point buy, plus 6 actual levels). When you're giving someone 35 bonus feats they can spend a bunch on the E6 ability feats and offset the point buy.

In order to limit cheese, LA is counted against ECL6 as per the normal rules.

ap

Note to all: I haven't seen many 4 member parties posted yet though I have seen a lot of setups that basically involve 1 uber character and presumably the other 3 ppl could be any chumps at all. That is rules legal, but it will take me a while to read through and eval them. Your odds will be better if you describe your tactics for dealing with the Balor's abilities - not just the build. Assuming I can access descriptions of all your feats/classes/abilities (or that I have time to compare them to the Baloir's abilities) is a big assumption.

You are now no longer asking for an E6 character, however. Also, you can only go up to LA +4 in E6, AFAIK.

crazedloon
2010-07-20, 11:14 PM
You sir have been Wiz'd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8968543&postcount=14).

touche sir but I shall add 23 orange ioun stones to the build to allow you to have high enough caster level to truly abuse those spells....

as for actual groups you have the above stated combo (or mine) and 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 druid, 1 rogue. The cleric and druid buff to be tanks/healers the wizard has a bunch of control/SoD/SoS and the rogue is there to get through the traps on the way to the balor

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 11:18 PM
You are now no longer asking for an E6 character, however. Also, you can only go up to LA +4 in E6, AFAIK.

You're saying that denying an ECL 10 character is no longer E6.

That's like saying that denying divine metamagic nightsticks is no longer D&D.

I house ruled out one small thing that can be used to undermine the whole concept of the game. That is just good policy for a contest like this.

That said, I do see your point. But just think - the winner gets to say that their winning team was even weaker than what E6 normally allows. That proves they are truly Hamsters, worthy of 200 words of praise and a fictional apotheosis.

re. custom items see my prev post.

ap

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 11:22 PM
touche sir but I shall add 23 orange ioun stones to the build to allow you to have high enough caster level to truly abuse those spells....

as for actual groups you have the above stated combo (or mine) and 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 druid, 1 rogue. The cleric and druid buff to be tanks/healers the wizard has a bunch of control/SoD/SoS and the rogue is there to get through the traps on the way to the balor

Each of your Ioun Stones costs 600K per the original post.

Edit: To AP: I'm sure you wouldn't have picked my duo anyway, but I'm not interested in playing it out. I enjoy the though exercise, but my tactical skills are weak. If anyone else (who wants to compete) is interested in using either or both of my builds on their team, they have my blessing.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-20, 11:27 PM
Well, if the Balor were named He Man, and one character just happened to be a Bone Human named Skeletor...


:smalltongue:

crazedloon
2010-07-20, 11:27 PM
Each of your Ioun Stones costs 600K per the original post.

except not as they do not require spells of higher than 4th level just a caster level of 12

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 11:30 PM
except not as they do not require spells of higher than 4th level just a caster level of 12

My turn to misread, then. But, wouldn't that make them impossible to find, since they state that the creator must be 12th level?

AP -- What is the ruling on this?

Malakar
2010-07-20, 11:35 PM
1) If LA is a PB decrease, then maybe that, I'm not that familiar with the rules of e6. I am somewhat leery of the idea that you pay for LA by decreasing your stats, but the LA increases them back up, and gives more besides. Anything that is a net gain... Not exactly on my list of well balanced trades.

2) Portable Hole + Bag of Holding will not be considered a win, because in this particular circumstance (Aside from the fact that he can just fly around on the Astral till he finds a portal to the Prime, then immediately teleport to wherever he was when you bagged him) it was in reference to e6 WLD, and since the WLD is supposed to be a prison for amongst other things, said balor, helping him to escape his prison will not count for the purposes of this challenge.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-20, 11:35 PM
How are specialized requirements for prestige classes handled? Tainted Scholar for example can be hit after level 3 assuming enough Taint.

Boci
2010-07-20, 11:36 PM
16 "roll with it"s will make sure you are immune to the damage the balor can deal.

As for spell like abilities:

blasphemy (DC 25), - be evil
dominate monster (DC 27), - mind blank
greater dispel magic,– spell immunity
insanity (DC 25), - mind blank
power word stun, - mind blank
telekinesis (DC 23), - spell immunity
unholy aura (DC 26); - be evil (still a buff though)
1/day—fire storm (DC 26), - fire soul
1/day - implosion (DC 27) – spell immunity

So all you need is a way to get spell immunity and mind blank for that one encounter. Can that be done with these rules? And for 4th level spells, what if a party member was an artificer?

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 11:37 PM
How are specialized requirements for prestige classes handled? Tainted Scholar for example can be hit after level 3 assuming enough Taint.

This post is made of Awesome. What can't Tainted Scholar do?

Wings of Peace
2010-07-20, 11:40 PM
This post is made of Awesome. What can't Tainted Scholar do?

Can I have the evil level 5 Necropolitan Wizard on the team kill the other three members in meticulously vicious manners to raise his Taint score? Technically it is still a traditional party at the start, three members are just spared dying at the hands of the Balor. :smallsmile:

Malakar
2010-07-20, 11:44 PM
I may have different opinions about this than other people, but I consider DC 2000 saves roughly in the same general area as Pun Pun. That area being "Good for you, so what."

Although, in this specific case, not sure that Tainted Scholar would auto win by himself.

Needs to win init, and then needs to follow up with a save spell, but going through the PHB (I'm sure we can find something in the SpC though):

Slow: You still die.
Hold Person: Not Humanoid.
Deep Slumber: More than 10HD.
Stinking Cloud: 90ft Fly speed still allows escape.

So yeah, even though I think beating it with Tainted Scholar is actually less impressive than beating it with a level 13 party, I'm not even sure it does it on it's own.

Another_Poet
2010-07-20, 11:47 PM
SUBMISSIONS SO FAR:

Starbuck II's Spellward Sniper + 3 Chumps
awaiting team details

Lhurgyof's Humorously Named Four
DEAD. Give details on equipment and tactics if this is a serious submission.

Dextercorvia's "Poor Man's Lucubration 9ths" plus "Krau Sigil Cleric/Wiz" plus two chumps
Status: Pending; details on tactics would be appreciated
Note to Dexter: No actual fight is needed to win; you just need to convince me.

aje8's Wraithstrike Nova plus 3 chumps
Status: Pending; convince me you can survive several rounds and repeat your nova, plus survive the death throes.

Awa's Chump with Astral Bomb Skellies, plus three more chumps
Points for Cleverness But the only member of your party still in combat with the Balor is a sad skeleton on the Astral Plane.

Lhurgyof's Diplomancer plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Show me how high you can make your Diplomacy score and how this will allow you to decisively defeat the Balor.

Crazedloon's "Krau Sigil 9ths" plus four chumps
Ninja'd If this build is a winner, it goes to Dex, but you will also get 200 words of honorable mention. Other problems with your team include too many chumps (you have 5 ppl total) and frivolous ioun stones exceed WBL; but these are supewrificial problems easily fixed.


Important rules clarification: Any item that can't be made by 6th level casters should actually cost 20x, although that is not what my OP said. I will edit it. Sorry, if it requires CL 7+ or 4th+ level spells, it costs 20x.

@Wings of Peace: You can assume as much Taint as you like, as long as you can show me how it isn't debilitating your character. But yeah... Necropolitan Tainted Scholar is probably not gonna get more than honorable mention.

Poets are sleeping now; will check back on the morrow.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-20, 11:47 PM
I may have different opinions about this than other people, but I consider DC 2000 saves roughly in the same general area as Pun Pun.

But 1/4 party members would survive! :smallbiggrin:

dextercorvia
2010-07-20, 11:48 PM
16 "roll with it"s will make sure you are immune to the damage the balor can deal.

As for spell like abilities:

blasphemy (DC 25), - be evil
dominate monster (DC 27), - mind blank
greater dispel magic,– spell immunity
insanity (DC 25), - mind blank
power word stun, - mind blank
telekinesis (DC 23), - spell immunity
unholy aura (DC 26); - be evil (still a buff though)
1/day—fire storm (DC 26), - fire soul
1/day - implosion (DC 27) – spell immunity

So all you need is a way to get spell immunity and mind blank for that one encounter. Can that be done with these rules? And for 4th level spells, what if a party member was an artificer?

Greater Spell immunity can only stop spells of 8th level or lower, and you only get one immune spell per 4 CL, so you would need to add Arcane Thesis and Practiced Spellcaster to my Divine guy to get Immunity to GDM and TK.

Edit: To AP -- I will accept the challenge then. I'll throw some chumps together and iron out some tactics by tomorrow.

Swordguy
2010-07-20, 11:49 PM
Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?

Secondarily, I'd argue that the point of E6 isn't to beat big bads as a virtue of your build, but via wacky plans, outside-the-box thinking, and actively going and questing for "the one item that the BBEG is weak to".

In that vein of thought, I present the following:

-1 party of 4, 6th level characters, of any build, as long as one of them has the capability to build a false wall. Additionally, one character must be optimized for Intelligence - having at least a +5 modifier.
-1 stone structure, with a long ramp with low headroom leading downward for over half their distance, then making a hard 90-degree turn at a small landing. The ramp must be behind a door. The hallway containing the ramp must be no larger than 10 feet tall by 4 feet wide (large enough for the Balor to compress himself to get through).
-1 false wall (paper-thickness) in line with the initial flight stairs at the landing.
-Several vials of Oil/Salve of Slipperiness (well within WBL guidelines)
-One Sphere of Annihilation that your party has engaged in a difficult quest to retrieve (partially why you've got 35 bonus feats and your WBL is so bloody high).

Publicize that you know said Balor's true name, and publicize that you have regular meeting in the basement of the aforementioned stone structure. The Balor will find you.

Behind the door at the top of the stairs, and every few yards afterward, you place your Oils of Slipperiness. Balor goes through the door (cause it's a damn Balor, people - what does it have to fear from an E6 environment?), knocks over the vials (which spill down the stairs, coating the area. As there's no headroom for a Large creature down the stairs, the Balor cannot fly and will fall down the ramp, breaking open yet more Oils of Slipperiness and continuing its slide. Upon reaching the landing, it continues sliding through the paper-thin false wall...right into the Sphere of Annihilation you've conveniently left there.

Meanwhile, your party member with the highest INT bonus who controls the Sphere takes 20 to establish control over the Sphere and holds his action. If he sees the Balor appear on the landing NOT in a high-velocity prone position, he immediately cashes in his held action to move the Sphere 10' up the stairs at the Balor. Under the "Inescapable Situations" section, saves and such don't matter when there's nowhere to go. As the 12' tall Balor is still in the tight hallway (10' tall 4' wide), there's nowhere for it to move to to avoid the 3' wide Sphere - thus no Reflex save is allowed.

Bamf. Balor gone.


Is it a perfect plan? No. Is it fun? Yes. Is it more in keeping with the intended tone of E6 than finding a bunch of rules loopholes? You'd better believe it.

Optimystik
2010-07-20, 11:51 PM
Perhaps to avoid confusion (as with the LA+E6 discussion) we should agree on and link to a specific set of E6 rules for this challenge? I've found more than one.

EDIT: And before you point me to the thread linked in the OP, there are many holes in that set of rules - including the aforementioned treatment of LA.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-20, 11:52 PM
Ah, ok. I'll work out all the details in the morning. It's much too late for me to come up with more than hilariously named characters. xD

ex cathedra
2010-07-20, 11:52 PM
I present : Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Desert Kobold Sorcerer 6.

Feats:

42 feats.

Dragonwrought
Draconic Reservoir
Versatile Spellcaster
Arcane Thesis (Shivering Touch)
Invisible Spell
Sanctum Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Practical Metamagic: Maximize
Fortify Spell
Energy Substitution (Cold)
Lord of the Uttercold
Twin Spell
Practical Metamagic: Empower, Maximize, Twin
Swift Metamagic: Invisible, Empower, Maximize, Twin
Skill Beyond Your Years: Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana)
Archmage Training
Arcane Reach
Improved Arcane Reach
Spell Like Ability [Assay Spell Resistance]
Ability Training (Con, Cha, Dex)
Ability Advancement (Con, Cha, Dex)
Arcane Mastery
Improved Initiative
Quick Reconnoiter
Knowledge Devotion

7 Spare feats.


Swift Action : SLA: Assay Spell Resistance
Invisible (-1) Fortified (+0) Uttercold (-1) Empowered (+0) Maximized (+1) Twinned (+2) Shivering Touch (with Improved Arcane Reach from 60' away, not counting the boost from Horizon Goggles) Take 10 to bypass Spell Resistance, we're able to pump our initiative much higher than +11, and we do an average of 46.5 Dexterity damage with no save with a ranged touch attack. The balor has a touch AC of 16. I don't feel like I have to point out how easy it is to beat that. Then the casters (Sorcerer, Beguiler, Archivist) evacuate while the shock trooper kills the paralyzed balor. The shock trooper dies.

Does this seem fair? I feel like I overlooked something.

Other party members:
Shock-Trooper Warblade. Does damage, Uses White Raven Tactics on the Sorc if the first volley somehow fails. Sacrificial lamb to the Death Throes.

Archivist. Does buffs, provides initiative/AB boosters to the Sorcerer if possible. With forty-something feats and the archivist spell list, can do damn near anything, honestly.

Beguiler. Skill monkey, secondary caster. Doesn't do much. Can share a handful of buffs, but this is perfectly doable with the three prior party members.

Equipment: Belts of Battle, Sandals of the Vagabond, +1 Warning Shuriken, Horizon Goggles, +Cha/Dex items, and so forth.

Boci
2010-07-20, 11:54 PM
Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?

Secondarily, I'd argue that the point of E6 isn't to beat big bads as a virtue of your build, but via wacky plans, outside-the-box thinking, and actively going and questing for "the one item that the BBEG is weak to".

In that vein of thought, I present the following:

-1 party of 4, 6th level characters, of any build, as long as one of them has the capability to build a false wall. Additionally, one character must be optimized for Intelligence - having at least a +5 modifier.
-1 stone structure, with a long ramp with low headroom leading downward for over half their distance, then making a hard 90-degree turn at a small landing. The ramp must be behind a door. The hallway containing the ramp must be no larger than 10 feet tall by 4 feet wide (large enough for the Balor to compress himself to get through).
-1 false wall (paper-thickness) in line with the initial flight stairs at the landing.
-Several vials of Oil/Salve of Slipperiness (well within WBL guidelines)
-One Sphere of Annihilation that your party has engaged in a difficult quest to retrieve (partially why you've got 35 bonus feats and your WBL is so bloody high).

Publicize that you know said Balor's true name, and publicize that you have regular meeting in the basement of the aforementioned stone structure. The Balor will find you.

Behind the door at the top of the stairs, and every few yards afterward, you place your Oils of Slipperiness. Balor goes through the door (cause it's a damn Balor, people - what does it have to fear from an E6 environment?), knocks over the vials (which spill down the stairs, coating the area. As there's no headroom for a Large creature down the stairs, the Balor cannot fly and will fall down the ramp, breaking open yet more Oils of Slipperiness and continuing its slide. Upon reaching the landing, it continues sliding through the paper-thin false wall...right into the Sphere of Annihilation you've conveniently left there.

Meanwhile, your party member with the highest INT bonus who controls the Sphere takes 20 to establish control over the Sphere and holds his action. If he sees the Balor appear on the landing NOT in a high-velocity prone position, he immediately cashes in his held action to move the Sphere 10' up the stairs at the Balor. Under the "Inescapable Situations" section, saves and such don't matter when there's nowhere to go. As the 12' tall Balor is still in the tight hallway (10' tall 4' wide), there's nowhere for it to move to to avoid the 3' wide Sphere - thus no Reflex save is allowed.

Bamf. Balor gone.


Is it a perfect plan? No. Is it fun? Yes. Is it more in keeping with the intended tone of E6 than finding a bunch of rules loopholes? You'd better believe it.

What about teleport? The balor can probably make the concentration check to cast it, so how fast does that trap take?

Swordguy
2010-07-21, 12:01 AM
What about teleport? The balor can probably make the concentration check to cast it, so how fast does that trap take?

Falling less than 200 feet is considered to be instantaneous by the rules.

Secondarily, it's not on an initiative count, so technically it doesn't get things like move or standard actions (which the Balor's Greater TP requires). Specific action types only apply once initiative has been rolled unless you have something that specifically allows you to take one outside of combat, which the Balor doesn't. It's just normally not an issue because when you're not in combat, you've basically guaranteed yourself to have the time to cast whatever you need to.

Finally, to avoid the obvious point "why doesn't the Balor Teleport straight into the basement?" Why would it? From the Balor's perspective, what the heck does it have to fear from a bunch of pathetic mortals - and they're literally pathetic compared to it, instead of rhetorically pathetic like the usually BBEG claims. Kicking its way into somebody's sanctum, walking through all their carefully prepared defenses, seems a LOT more like something the Balor would do rather than "Teleport in, Blasphemy, Teleport out". This way, from its line of thinking, it gets to savor the fear of its victims - totally a demonic trait, yes?

We're just using that thinking against it. Monsters are supposed to be roleplayed too, y'know. :smallwink:

Malakar
2010-07-21, 12:03 AM
Okay, 1) Swordguy, Balor easily avoids trap by flying, because yes, he can just use good maneuverability to stay in place.

2) So, to be clear. Because apparently I have to spell this out:

a) If you have an infinite value for anything, or a value of NI.
b) If you are casting spells that are above level 4 (I'm being generous here, it should be 3).
c) If you think your build would never be accepted by any DM who choose to play in e6, like for example, because he doesn't like the way that higher level D&D works.

I don't care. I literally don't care enough to run the encounter three times against you. It's not worth my time.

Yes Yes, Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu. I get it, you know how to make Pun Pun, or otherwise destroy the game by getting infinite Wishes, or CL Infinity, or Infinity damage, or Infinite spells with Infinite DC, or to Cast 9th level spells at level 4, I don't care. Go play that character in an e6 game and get back to me after a DM has accepted it.

Swordguy
2010-07-21, 12:08 AM
Okay, 1) Swordguy, Balor easily avoids trap by flying, because yes, he can just use good maneuverability to stay in place.


No headroom. It's a 10' tall corridor, and a Balor is explicitly 12 feet tall. He can hunch a bit to get down the corridor, but no flying room there, my friend. Re-read the original post.

Once he starts falling, because falls of 200 feet or less are considered instantaneous, he won't be able to take off and fly - he'll effectively instantly slide down the corridor and through the wall. And he has no way of knowing the trap is there until he physically goes through the door - true seeing doesn't help you pick up stuff that's physically hidden, and no Spot Check allows you to see through an opaque object (door).\

Other than that, I agree with your points regarding builds. That's explicitly not the point of E6. Think outside the box, not with your calculator.

dextercorvia
2010-07-21, 12:09 AM
Okay, 1) Swordguy, Balor easily avoids trap by flying, because yes, he can just use good maneuverability to stay in place.

2) So, to be clear. Because apparently I have to spell this out:

a) If you have an infinite value for anything, or a value of NI.
b) If you are casting spells that are above level 4 (I'm being generous here, it should be 3).
c) If you think your build would never be accepted by any DM who choose to play in e6, like for example, because he doesn't like the way that higher level D&D works.

I don't care. I literally don't care enough to run the encounter three times against you. It's not worth my time.

Yes Yes, Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu. I get it, you know how to make Pun Pun, or otherwise destroy the game by getting infinite Wishes, or CL Infinity, or Infinity damage, or Infinite spells with Infinite DC, or to Cast 9th level spells at level 4, I don't care. Go play that character in an e6 game and get back to me after a DM has accepted it.

A lot of anger there. You see, the way I see it...I wasn't asked whether a Balor should be in E6, I was asked if I could use the rules of E6, to build a party that can beat a Balor. So I used the only thing I really know about E6 (you get a crapton of feats) and some TO, and yes I think I could do it.

Would I play either of my builds in an E6 game, or even a standard game? Not unless the DM asked for us to do some crazy stuff in a one-shot.

Malakar
2010-07-21, 12:19 AM
No headroom. It's a 10' tall corridor, and a Balor is explicitly 12 feet tall. He can hunch a bit to get down the corridor, but no flying room there, my friend. Re-read the original post.

You don't need to have headroom to fly.

I'm completely ignoring your entire "Balor must only do the incredibly stupid things that I want him to." thing, and skipping right to the part where anyone with a fly speed of good or higher can just be hovering all the time, even if they are hovering a millimeter off the ground. And in fact, there is absolutely no benefit to the Balor to ever not be hovering, so he would be.

There's also the whole, "Balor derp derps around" thing that I don't understand at all why you think that a grease spell which explicitly offers a saving throw somehow automatically makes him slide across the room and down a chute even though it only forces a DC 12 reflex save, and he can just make that on a 2.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-21, 12:21 AM
At least at this point, I'm not going to enter, so many other good builds have been brought up, and frankly, I built a character a few weeks ago to kill Tiamat, and that was incredibly boring, and I don't want to have to do so again for an equally mind numbing exercise where I don't even get to tell someone "I told you so."

I'll admit though, this is much more challenging, at least at face value. Personally I'd probably utilize some sort of Charger/Mailman using Orb of Force (If I could figure out how to get the spell on my list)/Generic Healer Dude/Bard

I think for the most part that would work, it would require heavy searching for ways to reduce metamagic. Of course the best way is probably to replace the mailman with a Shivering Touch build as was mentioned earlier, I'd rather do it via damage.

Some combo of actual metamagic feats, arcane thesis, easy metamagic, and sudden metamagic would do it I think. Anyway, I'll continue reading, this is a fun thing to read.

Malakar
2010-07-21, 12:21 AM
A lot of anger there.

You know what, for the first time ever on this forum, I am angry.

I am angry at all the people constantly claiming I am angry.

No, nothing about that post was angry. I was weary, because I am weary of seeing the same eight builds for 9th level spells at DC infinity proposed as a solution for everything, but I was not angry.

Now can we please stop going "Stop being so angry!" everytime someone disagrees with us?

ex cathedra
2010-07-21, 12:25 AM
No, nothing about that post was angry. I was weary, because I am weary of seeing the same eight builds for 9th level spells at DC infinity proposed as a solution for everything, but I was not angry.

My build only gets 4th or 5th level spells. :smallredface:

Wings of Peace
2010-07-21, 12:29 AM
My theoretical idea was only 3rds. :smallsmile:

dextercorvia
2010-07-21, 12:29 AM
You know what, for the first time ever on this forum, I am angry.

I am angry at all the people constantly claiming I am angry.

No, nothing about that post was angry. I was weary, because I am weary of seeing the same eight builds for 9th level spells at DC infinity proposed as a solution for everything, but I was not angry.

Now can we please stop going "Stop being so angry!" everytime someone disagrees with us?

Would you rather we proposed a middle aged Cook with a broken chair leg? I actually took down an ascending Strahd with that "build" once. Actually I was playing a level 5 wizard whose mind had been sent back in time to witness the ascent. But the only reason I succeeded there was the 5% chance of succeeding at anything.

So, you were weary, but not angry. I'll remember that.

awa
2010-07-21, 12:29 AM
so with all the same defensive measures mentioned in early post replace bag of holding with dust of choking and sneezing even on a save it will shut him down for between 5 and 20 rounds.
fighter and rouge begins unleashing massive barrage of arrows with wounding bows

Potion of protection from energy for everyone

wizard casts buffs.
cleric directs skeletons so they don't do something stupid
skeletons throw extra dust every 5 rounds. Eventually his con will hit zero and he will die.
The dust is dirt cheap with the wealth we have so give it to every one make

every one wears full body concealing robes to hide the important people
leadership provides decoys

edit never mind that second bit they would need to be in melee

ex cathedra
2010-07-21, 12:30 AM
I don't really use my extra spell levels. It just seemed like the easiest way to pad my CL, and I really just depend on my third level slots, mostly. Assay Spell Resistance, too. I haven't thought of any fifth level spells I would even use in the build yet.

Swordguy
2010-07-21, 12:33 AM
You don't need to have headroom to fly.

I'm completely ignoring your entire "Balor must only do the incredibly stupid things that I want him to." thing, and skipping right to the part where anyone with a fly speed of good or higher can just be hovering all the time, even if they are hovering a millimeter off the ground. And in fact, there is absolutely no benefit to the Balor to ever not be hovering, so he would be.

There's also the whole, "Balor derp derps around" thing that I don't understand at all why you think that a grease spell which explicitly offers a saving throw somehow automatically makes him slide across the room and down a chute even though it only forces a DC 12 reflex save, and he can just make that on a 2.

Because you know what I'm doing? I'm presenting a plan that you would actually see in play, instead of a totally focused build based solely around getting spell DCs up so high that they're impossible to hit, or taking advantage of rules loopholes to give you aa huge number of 9th level spells, or similar theoretical optimization. I'm presenting something that's using the spirit of the game, rather than tearing apart the letter. The other stuff is totally more effective, but they're more Theoretical Optimization rather than something - anything - more practical that a given DM might be willing to allow.

Moreover, I'm assuming that the game in question cares at all about verisimillitude. If you believe that the rules are the final word in how the physics of the game world operate, you're not gonna like that. The Balor can't fly in a space smaller than it is because there's nowhere to go. The Balor slides down the corridor because it's coated in an incredibly slippery substance that it had absolutely no idea to expect (and you'll also note there's a contingency in place in case it were to NOT slide). The Balor is taking the actions that appropriately suit a demon - not necessarily the most optimal actions, but the ones that are most true to its nature in an E6 environment.

In short, I'm playing by the spirit of the rules here. I figure that you, of all people, railing against the theoretical optimization that lets a 6th level wizard cast 28 9th level spells to beat anything in the game, would appreciate that. My plan has room for failure...and it's also going to be a far better story and experience when it works, as opposed to "*yawn* - my wizard casts the following 8 spells and wipes it out. Next challenge."

Heck, at least mine is interesting.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-21, 12:39 AM
I don't really use my extra spell levels. It just seemed like the easiest way to pad my CL, and I really just depend on my third level slots, mostly. Assay Spell Resistance, too. I haven't thought of any fifth level spells I would even use in the build yet.

Out of curiosity, some of these feats I'm not familiar with care to explain them? I only ask because I figure you can jot down one liners explaining them much quicker than I can look them up individually.

Swift Metamagic: Invisible, Empower, Maximize, Twin ( I presume these allow you to cast these metamagics without increasing casting time? If so why not Rapid Metamagic from CM? If not, what are they :P)

Skill Beyond Your Years: Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana)
Archmage Training
Arcane Reach
Improved Arcane Reach
Spell Like Ability [Assay Spell Resistance] (More so curious what book this is out of)
Ability Training (Con, Cha, Dex)
Ability Advancement (Con, Cha, Dex)
Arcane Mastery

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 12:46 AM
Read what Swift Metamagic does. It's basically just sudden X.

awa
2010-07-21, 12:46 AM
actualy after the wizards done buffing he can get out his wounding bow (hes an elf) and start taking shots to with his true strike

also change the rouge to a ranger as a skill monkey they have better base attack

dextercorvia
2010-07-21, 12:47 AM
Out of curiosity, some of these feats I'm not familiar with care to explain them? I only ask because I figure you can jot down one liners explaining them much quicker than I can look them up individually.

Swift Metamagic: Invisible, Empower, Maximize, Twin ( I presume these allow you to cast these metamagics without increasing casting time? If so why not Rapid Metamagic from CM? If not, what are they :P)


Skill Beyond Your Years: Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana)
Archmage Training
Arcane Reach
Improved Arcane Reach
Spell Like Ability [Assay Spell Resistance] (More so curious what book this is out of)
Ability Training (Con, Cha, Dex)
Ability Advancement (Con, Cha, Dex)
Arcane Mastery

You can't qualify for Rapid Metamagic in E6

It sounds like he is using a Feat based Archmage "PrC", and some Epic Feats.

Arcane Mastery lets you take 10 on Caster level checks, I believe it is in Complete Arcane.

Edit: Ninja'd

ex cathedra
2010-07-21, 12:47 AM
Those are all E6 feats (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_6/Character_Creation), with the exception of Arcane Mastery, which is a feat from Complete Arcane that allows me to take 10 on caster level checks (for example, to bypass SR).

ex cathedra
2010-07-21, 12:49 AM
Swift Metamagic doesn't actually do anything for the build. It's a remnant of the build before I added in Assay Spell Resistance for my swift action and manually applied Twin Metamagic, rather than using SM to use it. A lot of the feats are a bit superfluous, now.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 12:53 AM
I don't think this challenge is really fair. The challenge is "Kill a Balor in E6" but then the rules get modified so LA isn't used (even though it seems well within the intent to use LA), and so that anything that wouldn't be played in a "real game" can't be used, which makes this rather impossible since anything that can kill a Balor won't be playing in a real game at level six.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-21, 12:55 AM
You can't qualify for Rapid Metamagic in E6

Honestly forgot that had a prereq other than spontaneous casting, sorry :P

As for the Swift Feats (And some others), didn't notice they were from E6, hence why I'm not familiar with them. Anyway, thanks for dropping some proverbial knowledge on me.

Cespenar
2010-07-21, 02:31 AM
If I'm not mistaken, there's an easy way out of this.

Four Rogue5/Assassin 1s, hiding (rather mundanely) and death attacking all at once.

-The characters need to have a +58 to Hide & MS to guarantee success, and if even I can get to the high 40s without trying, the optimizers won't have any trouble by this.

-Death attack DC. It increases with Int besides anything else, and keeping in mind that there's four of these guys, it's rather hard for the Balor to succeed at four Fort saves, even with his +22.

-DC 30 Reflex save for reducing the throes to 50 damage is fairly doable for a dex-focused rogue too, I imagine.

-Other nitpicks could easily be answered with UMD and the appropriate spells, e.g. Wraithstrike and such.

Any real reasons why this won't work? Like an immunity I'm not aware of?

Boci
2010-07-21, 04:43 AM
Yes Yes, Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu. I get it, you know how to make Pun Pun, or otherwise destroy the game by getting infinite Wishes, or CL Infinity, or Infinity damage, or Infinite spells with Infinite DC, or to Cast 9th level spells at level 4, I don't care. Go play that character in an e6 game and get back to me after a DM has accepted it.

I've got to agree with Milskidasith on this last bit. You say we need to find a DM who will accept it, but then we could just say find a DM who would put a balor in an E6 game. Yes, Pun-Pun would be boring, but no one has seriously recommended him yet. A little TO does not seem out of place in such a challange.

jseah
2010-07-21, 04:44 AM
awa:
Dust of Sneezing and Choking will certainly work. It is also the most houseruled thing in existence besides sarruhks. (ok, I exaggerate, but a no save daze is probably up there in the broken stuff)

Zen Master
2010-07-21, 04:58 AM
Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?

Secondarily, I'd argue that the point of E6 isn't to beat big bads as a virtue of your build, but via wacky plans, outside-the-box thinking, and actively going and questing for "the one item that the BBEG is weak to".

In that vein of thought, I present the following:

-1 party of 4, 6th level characters, of any build, as long as one of them has the capability to build a false wall. Additionally, one character must be optimized for Intelligence - having at least a +5 modifier.
-1 stone structure, with a long ramp with low headroom leading downward for over half their distance, then making a hard 90-degree turn at a small landing. The ramp must be behind a door. The hallway containing the ramp must be no larger than 10 feet tall by 4 feet wide (large enough for the Balor to compress himself to get through).
-1 false wall (paper-thickness) in line with the initial flight stairs at the landing.
-Several vials of Oil/Salve of Slipperiness (well within WBL guidelines)
-One Sphere of Annihilation that your party has engaged in a difficult quest to retrieve (partially why you've got 35 bonus feats and your WBL is so bloody high).

Publicize that you know said Balor's true name, and publicize that you have regular meeting in the basement of the aforementioned stone structure. The Balor will find you.

Behind the door at the top of the stairs, and every few yards afterward, you place your Oils of Slipperiness. Balor goes through the door (cause it's a damn Balor, people - what does it have to fear from an E6 environment?), knocks over the vials (which spill down the stairs, coating the area. As there's no headroom for a Large creature down the stairs, the Balor cannot fly and will fall down the ramp, breaking open yet more Oils of Slipperiness and continuing its slide. Upon reaching the landing, it continues sliding through the paper-thin false wall...right into the Sphere of Annihilation you've conveniently left there.

Meanwhile, your party member with the highest INT bonus who controls the Sphere takes 20 to establish control over the Sphere and holds his action. If he sees the Balor appear on the landing NOT in a high-velocity prone position, he immediately cashes in his held action to move the Sphere 10' up the stairs at the Balor. Under the "Inescapable Situations" section, saves and such don't matter when there's nowhere to go. As the 12' tall Balor is still in the tight hallway (10' tall 4' wide), there's nowhere for it to move to to avoid the 3' wide Sphere - thus no Reflex save is allowed.

Bamf. Balor gone.


Is it a perfect plan? No. Is it fun? Yes. Is it more in keeping with the intended tone of E6 than finding a bunch of rules loopholes? You'd better believe it.

For what it's worth, I love this plan.

I like the thought of luring the balor with the knowledge of it's truename. It's not going to send a minion, who might then also learn it's truename. So yea - it will come.

If we want to avoid using an artefact, how about wounding damage, or ability damage? How about holy damage - can that be produced in the required amount?

Also, do avoid the discussion of whether a sloped corridor will allow it to fly, are there any good ways to restrict it's flight? I'm thinking a simple net - but then again, it's flight may be magical and have nothing to do with its wings.

Then again, without the elaborate trap everything would come down to initiative, and doing enough damage before the balor acts to win.

jseah
2010-07-21, 05:03 AM
My idea is pretty strange and incomplete, but someone else could use it.

It involves having some way to bait a balor to get into a magic circle (with a diagram) facing inwards.
This means the balor cannot affect anything outside the circle:
"A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram"

All you need then is to pass a cha-check to keep it inside then you have 1 entire day to kill it at your leisure.


This idea got a lot harder when 4+ level spells got disapproval. Since my original way involved Gate-ing the Balor into the circle using the unique creature summons clause.
(contrary to normal expectation, the magic circle spell only suggests the planar binding line, not require it. The exact description outside the suggestion was "a spell that calls the creature" which Gate certainly fits)
If I could garuantee a way for it to work first try, you could eat the 20x cost and get a scroll.

Complete team here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9013242&postcount=244

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-21, 05:47 AM
Pixie Dread Necromancer 6, according to E6 you would get 0 point buy stats and +0 LA as per the FAQ spoiler in the second post on the OP's E6 link.

38 feats available:
General: Dragontouched, Versatile Spellcaster, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Arcane Thesis: Enervation, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ascetic Mage.

Metamagic: Sanctum Spell, Heighten Spell, Fortify Spell, Ocular Spell, Split Ray, Twin Spell.

Metamagic Improvers: Practical Metamagic: Split Ray, Practical Metamagic: Ocular Spell, Practical Metamagic: Fortify Spell, Easy Metamagic: Fortify Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Necromancy, Metamagic School Focus: Necromancy, Metamagic School Focus: Necromancy, Metamagic School Focus: Necromancy.

E6 Specific Feats: Swift Metamagic: Fortify, Swift Metamagic: Split Ray, Swift Metamagic: Split Ray, Swift Metamagic: Twin Spell, Swift Metamagic: Twin Spell, Ability Training: Cha, Ability Advancement: Cha, Ability Training: Dex, Ability Advancement: Dex.

Equipment: Circlet of Rapid Casting, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Ring of Arcane Might, Cloak of Cha +6, Gloves of Dex +6, Potions of Snowsight, Eternal Wand of Obscuring Snow.


Versatile Spellcaster: At level 6 you can spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast any spell you know Heightened to 4th level. This proves access to 4th level spells, thus you gain knowledge of all 4th level spells on your Dread Necromancer class spell list. You can now spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast Enervation unmodified.

Sanctum Spell: When you cast a spell modified by this feat outside of your designated sanctum, it lowers the spell's level by one, as though the opposite effect of Heighten Spell were applied to it. For example, a Sanctum Enervation would be considered a 3rd level spell and thus be a valid target of a Lesser Metamagic Rod. While it would normally still require a 4th level spell slot to cast, Arcane Thesis lowers the required spell slot by one, to a minimum of the spell's level, which is 3rd. Sanctum Enervation is a 3rd level spell, once Arcane Thesis has been applied it can be cast from as low as a 3rd level spell slot.

Ocular Spell or The Setup: Cast two Sanctum, Twinned, (Rod of) Maximized, Split Ray, Ocular, Fortified (+7), Enervations, up to eight hours before expecting an encounter. Metamagic values are as follows, keeping in mind you can apply your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order:

Sanctum Enervation: 3rd level spell requiring a 4th level slot
Swift Metamagic: Twinned: no modification (4th)
Lesser Rod of Maximized: no modification (4th)
Practical Split Ray: +1 level spell slot, reduced by 1 for Metamagic School Focus to +0 (4th)
Practical Ocular: +1 level spell slot, reduced by 1 for Metamagic School Focus to +0 (4th)
Practical Fortified (+7): +6 level spell slot considering Practical, reduced by 1 for Metamagic School Focus to +5 (9th)
Arcane Thesis: Sanctum, Twin, Maximize, Split, Ocular, Fortified is six metamagic feats, thus reducing the level of the spell slot required to cast it by six to a 3rd level spell slot, and also granting +2 caster level.

This spell is at caster level 10 (6 base, +1 ring, +1 ioun stone, +2 arcane thesis), gets +4 vs SR due to Greater Spell Penetration, and an additional +14 vs SR due to Fortify Spell. The roll to overcome SR is 1d20+28, so you're guaranteed to overcome the Balor's SR. It has a range of 50 feet.

The character's Dex score is 24 (8 base, +8 race, +2 feat, +6 enhancement) for a +7 ability bonus, with a BAB of +3 and a +1 size bonus for a total ranged attack bonus of +11.

The Balor's True Seeing has a range of 120 feet, so the Pixie will likely not be noticed outside that range. Before engaging the Pixie will drink a potion of Snowsight, and send one or more undead minions to distract the creature as he uses the wand to cast Obscuring Snow. If in the dark the Balor will be blind out to 60 feet, whereas its body and weapons shed enough light to make it clearly visible from a distance. It would not even be aware of the Pixie's presence, it would have no means of identifying that Obscuring Snow had been cast, and it would not even be aware of the spell's effect until the Pixie approached closer. With Obscuring Snow he will have total concealment from the Balor, so its touch AC without Dex bonuses will be 9, and the Pixie will get an additional +2 to hit because the Balor will be blind relative to the attack. As long as he doesn't roll a natural 1 he'll hit on all attacks, assuming the Balor attacks his undead minions instead of dispelling the snowstorm.

Full Round Action: Discharge both spells from his eyes, four attack rolls at 95% chance to hit, guaranteed to overcome SR, no saving throw, 8 negative levels per ray, so 32 negative levels if all four hit, or 24 negative levels if only three hit.
Swift Action: If two rays miss, use the Circlet of Rapid Casting to cast a Sanctum, Split Ray, Rod of Maximized, Fortified (+5), Enervation, 95% chance to hit, 85% chance to overcome SR, 8 more negative levels.

The death throes will likely take out the Pixie, but you can probably use some of those left over feats to get Practical Enlarge Spell along with the Travel domain. Note that discharging the Ocular Spells is guaranteed to one-shot four separate targets in E6, since each ray does 8 negative levels and no character is higher than 6th level. This is probably the most overpowered playable character in E6.

Malakar
2010-07-21, 08:00 AM
FYI, I'm pretty sure Sanctum spell was errattaed to stop most of these abuses.

2) The Balor automatically detects Snowsight was cast. Even if it has no verbal component, and you cast from outside his True Seeing range, he still has a +30 spellcraft, which means he auto identifies up to 10 level spells from their effects.


Moreover, I'm assuming that the game in question cares at all about verisimillitude. If you believe that the rules are the final word in how the physics of the game world operate, you're not gonna like that. The Balor can't fly in a space smaller than it is because there's nowhere to go. The Balor slides down the corridor because it's coated in an incredibly slippery substance that it had absolutely no idea to expect (and you'll also note there's a contingency in place in case it were to NOT slide). The Balor is taking the actions that appropriately suit a demon - not necessarily the most optimal actions, but the ones that are most true to its nature in an E6 environment.

In short, I'm playing by the spirit of the rules here.

See no. It's not in the spirit of the rules for the Balor to not be flying. It is within the Spirit of the rules for him to be doing so. Likewise, I can think of 30 things that would be more demonic than walking in the front door like an idiot.

But that aside, you stop following the letter or the spirit of the rules in any way when you attempt to claim that items that grant saving throws grant no saving throws.

I could just argue "By a Mask that casts Finger of Death, and it will Kill the Balor with it's DC 15 save." As you can argue that Salves of Slipperyness that are treated as long lasting grease effects should automatically work even when they Balor makes the saving throw.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-21, 08:15 AM
FYI, I'm pretty sure Sanctum spell was errattaed to stop most of these abuses.

2) The Balor automatically detects Snowsight was cast. Even if it has no verbal component, and you cast from outside his True Seeing range, he still has a +30 spellcraft, which means he auto identifies up to 10 level spells from their effects.

I just looked at the Complete Arcane errata, no mention of Sanctum Spell so it remains as printed and everything still works.

Snowsight is cast from a wand, so no verbal components. It's cast outside his Darkvision range, so he has no way of perceiving it at all. Plus that's just one character in a party of four, one character capable of killing it in a single shot. The other three characters can all work to make sure he gets to take that shot, but that's a little bit too much work right now. True Seeing doesn't allow him to see through mundane darkness, the character is 100 feet away from the Balor, Obsuring Snow has a 30 foot radius, and his Darkvision is only 60 feet. The Obscuring Snow isn't even necessary since the character can just take the shot from the dark, considering the Balor is illuminated by his own weapons.

Malakar
2010-07-21, 08:35 AM
I just looked at the Complete Arcane errata, no mention of Sanctum Spell so it remains as printed and everything still works.

Snowsight is cast from a wand, so no verbal components. It's cast outside his Darkvision range, so he has no way of perceiving it at all. Plus that's just one character in a party of four, one character capable of killing it in a single shot. The other three characters can all work to make sure he gets to take that shot, but that's a little bit too much work right now. True Seeing doesn't allow him to see through mundane darkness, the character is 100 feet away from the Balor, Obsuring Snow has a 30 foot radius, and his Darkvision is only 60 feet. The Obscuring Snow isn't even necessary since the character can just take the shot from the dark, considering the Balor is illuminated by his own weapons.

Why is he standing around in total darkness?

Why did you miss the part that he will know the Snowsight is cast if it is within 60ft of him even in total darkness, because he can make the spellcraft check.

"20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry."

AmberVael
2010-07-21, 08:38 AM
True Seeing doesn't allow him to see through mundane darkness,
Yes it does.

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness

Doctor Acula
2010-07-21, 08:40 AM
This interests me, I am tempted to attempt to bulild a party, I have one question: Is dragon magazine allowed?

kjones
2010-07-21, 08:53 AM
Swordguy, I think your plan is awesome, and I would allow it in actual play while giving everyone else here the boot.

However, it's worth noting that for a certain group of people, coming up with ridiculous builds like these is just as satisfying, if not more so, than coming up with clever plans.

Swordguy
2010-07-21, 09:00 AM
Swordguy, I think your plan is awesome, and I would allow it in actual play while giving everyone else here the boot.

However, it's worth noting that for a certain group of people, coming up with ridiculous builds like these is just as satisfying, if not more so, than coming up with clever plans.

Fair enough. Different strokes, and all that.

true_shinken
2010-07-21, 09:47 AM
We're just using that thinking against it. Monsters are supposed to be roleplayed too, y'know. :smallwink:

A balor has Int and Wis 24. He is really, REALLY smart. Smart people in D&D need to be careful (else they are not that smart).
If you mention the roleplay aspect, a balor wouldn't ever bother going against anyone if it was outside of his comfort zone (his very own infernal haven, most likely) - he would just send his mooks after them. He even has built-in mooks via his summon ability.

Swordguy
2010-07-21, 10:14 AM
A balor has Int and Wis 24. He is really, REALLY smart. Smart people in D&D need to be careful (else they are not that smart).
If you mention the roleplay aspect, a balor wouldn't ever bother going against anyone if it was outside of his comfort zone (his very own infernal haven, most likely) - he would just send his mooks after them. He even has built-in mooks via his summon ability.

In a regular D&D environment, I'll grant you that. He'll send mooks in, or even pull scry-and-die tactics against a party of heavily-armed and experienced high-level adventurers. But this isn't a regular D&D environment. It's E6. The Balor is as far beyond the mere 6th-level mortals in its ability to attack and defend as the mortals themselves are beyond a basic, non-templated bullfrog.

The builds we're seeing here aren't representative of the E6 sytem. Compared to a regular 6th Level adventurer (ie, not one optimized for this specific contest), the Balor is practically invincible. That's kind of the point; if the loophole builds posted earlier in the thread were what was standard in the E6 system, the question of whether an E6 adventuring party could take a Balor would have never come up.

No - the Balor is a demon. A demon. It's prime delight in what passes for its life is to terrify, main, and destroy what's weaker than it is. So, taking into account the known capabilities of mortals in an E6 system, why on earth should it be worried? It's effectively invincible. Hell - adventurers kick in the door, terrify, and slaughter in a variety of amusing ways goblins and kobolds that are just a few CRs below them. This Balor is FOURTEEN CRs above any mere mortal in an E6 world. If adventurers behave like that, certainly one can concede that a Balor, confident in its own superiority, would be taking the course of action most likely to be entertaining to it. As far as it knows, it literally has nothing - absolutely nothing - to fear from any given E6 mortal.

And that's why this works. In a setting where the DM cares whatsoever about the verisimilitude of his game universe and doesn't just play a tactical wargame against his players where the bad guys always take the tactically optimal solution, this plan fails. I do not believe that setting is what is intended. I believe the DM running the Balor would take its cruelty, its malice, and its will to inflict suffering into account when running the monster. What better way to inflict fear on an adventurer than to treat them the same way they've treated legions of weaker foes before? He'll do it kick in the door-style. And it's that very psychological predilection of the creature that, in my submission, I exploit.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-21, 10:34 AM
All characters have improved toughness, improved init, Magic Device Attunement and all three save boosters. Party is all neutral evil(ce for barb). They all also have the luck feat that allows rerolling 1s on saves.All party members have UMD maxed.

Edit: If I say "orb of fire" anywhere in here, I mean lesser orb of fire. All math is correct for this, but I have a bad habit of using the wrong names for things.

Warforged Crusader 5/Barbarian 1.
1 feat for the warforged heavy armor. 10 feats for more DR. This ensures relatively minor damage from all non crits. One feat to be immune to crits. Together with the delayed damage pool and the usual crusader fun, we've ensured the crusader won't die.

Power Attack, EWP:Spiked Chain, Stand Still, WF(Spiked Chain), shock trooper, combat reflexes.

Equipment: Cold Iron Spiked Chain, wand socketed with Wings of Cover wand inside, Boots of Battle

Buffs:

Still working on getting this save pumped, and this attack more reliable, but you see the basic philosophy. Lock the balor in place with the guy he can't hurt.

Necropolitan Human Factotum 6. Font of Inspiration x9. Heavily optimized for int, because, well, he's a factotum. Massive bonuses to saves will enuse, so his survival is more or less ensured simply due to being well built for his class. His mission is to shore up whatever weak points the other party members have, dual wielding wand drums, one carrying 3x Cure Serious Wounds wands, the other packing 2x highly metamagiced orb of fire wands, and a single wand of dispel magic, all made by the party wizard.

Necropolitan (race) Cleric 6. Similar build to the barbarian. He's a beatstick/buffer. Weapon is cold iron, and has a wand socket for Wings of Cover

Necropolitan Whisper Gnome Wizard 2, Master Specialist 3, Wild Mage 1. Specialized Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt.

Feats: Invisible Spell, Searing Spell, Energy Substitution(Cold), Energy Substitution(Fire), Energy Substitution(Acid), Energy Substitution(Electricity), Energy Substitution(Sonic), Snowcasting, Flash Frost, Fell Drain, Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Extra Spell Slot x3, Arcane Thesis(Orb of Fire), Arcane Thesis(Fireball), Practiced Spellcaster, Craft Wonderous Item, Craft Wands(accessible via CWI thanks to E6), Weapon Focus(Touch Attacks), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Equipment: Boots of Battle, Wand of Wings of Cover.

Role: This guy drops any summoned in monsters in a single round with a heavily metamagiced fireball. If the balor doesn't summon monsters, he focuses on kill shots. With 10 + d6 CL, his lesser orbs of fire range between 5 and 8 damage dice, for about eighty damage per orb, plus the negative level from fell drain. The balor has no resistances to sonic, and the orb ignores SR, so he'll be quite dead in four hits. Range is not a concern. To hit: 1(WF), 9 dex(18 initially, 1 on level up, 2 racial, 4 enhance, 3 from an efreet), 3 BaB. ie, +13 touch against touch AC 16. Hits on a 3+.

Still in progress, but at this point, I could probably dump the rest of the feats into toughness for everyone. Any four orbs will kill it. Three, if I get lucky on the damage rolls. The factotum and the wizard can put out a combined 9 orbs on the initial round. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant at this point. In fact, this is cheap enough that I could just hand around wands to the rest of the party. The DCs only 20. They're immune to essentially anything he can do to them at range. Up close, too. Wings of Cover is a helluva spell. Full attacks are just never going to happen, and any charge is going to deal no damage. The only challenge is going to come in ensuring that most of the party is going to be outside the 100 ft range when he dies. This is mostly doable via run actions, so, at most, we'll lose a single character if they are positioned unfortunately AND fail their reflex save.

But practically speaking, we're gonna see it, thanks to skillmonkey factotum, in the distance, and it's gonna take a gazillion orbs in round one. Then comes the celebrating and dancing on the body.

awa
2010-07-21, 10:34 AM
it seems your confusing verisimilitude for rules you don't like not functioning (the reflex save) and thoughts i don't like (just teleporting) and having access to a minor artifact.

Another other problem and this is a big one the balor is only coming if he thinks you know his true name correct? Well then he has a huge reason to be super cautious of you and investigate the situation before hand. He thinks your packing his true name while in reality all you have is an orb of annihilation.

In a realistic world the balor can just put out his hands and feet against the wall to stop his movement. So either we follow the rules and it is highly unlikely to work because it requires him failing multiple easy checks in a row or we follow logic and it doesn't work because he can easily stop his fall by putting his hands out.

Now i don't dislike this because its thinking out side the box my skeleton suicide bombers are out side the box, but the difference is mine work (sorta) and your doesn't.

edit can't the balor just teleport out of a trippers effect, stay at ranged with implosions (also you need to increase your reach it has a reach of 20 all by itself)

Another_Poet
2010-07-21, 10:37 AM
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Perhaps to avoid confusion (as with the LA+E6 discussion) we should agree on and link to a specific set of E6 rules for this challenge? I've found more than one.

The rules are as normal E6 (link in first post) plus the contest rules found in the first post. If something in the contest rules conflicts with normal E6, follow the contest rules. Specific trumps general, and this specific contest';s rules trump the general E6 rules in any case where the two differ.


Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?

It is probably against the spirit of E6 to count on having an artefact, but I'll allow it.

The closest parallel with a price is a continuous-use wondrous item with CL20. Looking at wondrous items that meet that description, the cheapest are about 76,000 gp. Multiply by 20 and you get a 1.52 million gp pricetag. So, if two of your four characters spend all of their WBL on the minor artefact, they could have it.


I don't think this challenge is really fair. The challenge is "Kill a Balor in E6" but then the rules get modified so LA isn't used (even though it seems well within the intent to use LA),

I tell you what Miski, if it's that big of a deal then go ahead and use up to +4 LA/RHD as per normal E6 rules. However you must dedicate 6 of the 35 bonus feats. You'll be using those on Ability Training for 3 statts and Ability Advancement for 3 stats to offset your lower point buy.

Also if your build wins you can expect some of the 200 words of praise to mock you for whining about the rules of a contest instead of trying to come up with a a clever entry that succeeds within the rules of the contest. But some of the 200 words will still be praise. Maybe even 100 or more!


anything that wouldn't be played in a "real game" can't be used

Whoa, don't confuse Malakar's words with mine. Malakar has a lot of opinions but for better or worse they are irrelevant to the judging of this contest. This is the second time someone has confused something he posted with an official contest ruling by me. Ha, I say! Malakar has offered to run an actual fight with the winner of this contest (and then retracted that offer for some contestants) and that sounds like a great sequel, but he is not the arbiter of this contest.


This interests me, I am tempted to attempt to bulild a party, I have one question: Is dragon magazine allowed?

No. All 3.5e D&D WotC-published books are allowed, nothing else.




UPDATED SUBMISSION LIST
Swordguy's Fight Smarter Not Harder (four chumps with a sphere of Gygax)
Status: Pending; tell me how the Sphere's controller will survive the death throes.

Aethernox's Four Go In, Three Come Out
Status: Pending Looks like a complete plan

Awa's Revised Chumps with Skellies and Dust of Sneezing
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Cespenar's Contract Killers (four Rog5/Assassin1's)
Status: Pending; You're assuming you can get your Hide and Move Silently to +58. Show me the feats & gear. You also assume you can boost your Fort save DC high enough that he will reliably (i..e more than half the time) fail with his +22 modifier. Show me the feats & gear.

jseah's Abramelin and Three Chumps
DEAD. You cannot get a scroll of a 4th level or higher spell, as per the original post. Feel free to tweak and resubmit.

Biffoniacus_Furious' "That's Not Tinkerbell!" plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Tyndmyr's One Part Robot, 3 Parts Zombies, Garnish with LimeStatus: Pending; Awaiting additional information promised in post.

Boci
2010-07-21, 10:42 AM
jseah's Abramelin and Three Chumps
DEAD. You cannot get a scroll of a 4th level or higher spell, as per the original post.

What if one of the party members is an artificer?

lord_khaine
2010-07-21, 11:08 AM
Cespenar's Contract Killers (four Rog5/Assassin1's)
Status: Pending; You're assuming you can get your Hide and Move Silently to +58. Show me the feats & gear. You also assume you can boost your Fort save DC high enough that he will reliably (i..e more than half the time) fail with his +22 modifier. Show me the feats & gear.

Seems a dc 27 on the fort save will be enough, to make sure its more than 50% likely he does not make all his saves.

Also, if they can make an ambush, would it not be enough for them to boost hide to the required level?

Swordguy
2010-07-21, 11:12 AM
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

UPDATED SUBMISSION LIST
Swordguy's Fight Smarter Not Harder (four chumps with a sphere of Gygax)
Status: Pending; tell me how the Sphere's controller will survive the death throes.

Heh. Nice title.

OK...I'm not actually sure are are death throes in this case. The target of the Sphere isn't "killed" (as in, achieves the "Dead" condition) - they cease to exist.

Citations from the SRD


Dead Condition: The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic.

The bolded part at the end is the important part. The Sphere of Annihilation explicitly bypasses that, like so:


Sphere of Annihilation: Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.

If a Dead character can be restored to life via magic, and the Sphere does not allow the target to be restored to life via magic, it's a "technical" argument that the Balor never enters the "Dead" condition, but as the effect says, simply ceases to exist. Thus, it doesn't get the Death Throes. (

...

With that said, if you rule it the other way and the Balor does explode, my initial response is fairly simple. As you pointed out upthread, only one character has to survive for this to count as a "win", and my scenario has everyone but the Sphere's controller surviving. He's the only person who even has to be in the building, much less within 100'.

I'm fine if you rule it this way, by the way. The "he's not all Dead" example above is entirely too rules-lawyer/loophole-ish for my taste. Yes - it meshes with everything we've ever had described about the Sphere, but I don't like having to justify things that way.

...

My final solution would be to simply have the controller of the orb in a covered pit or behind a stone wall, watching the landing via a periscope or pinhole. The controller does NOT have to have LoS to control the orb - merely be within 100 feet (40 feet+10feet/level). I'm not sure offhand what the bonus to a Reflex save from total cover (where there's literally no way for the explosion to reach you except through a pinhole or periscope) would be, but at least it's trying. If I were the DM, I'd ignore the Reflex save, apply the damage to the cover he's hiding behind, and apply the remainder to him as the explosion blows through the cover. Six inches of stone seems reasonable for a "stone wall or floor", so that's 90hp soaked by the wall. Controller takes the remaining 10hp from the throes, and perhaps an extra 1d6 of d6's worth of flying debris on top (6-36 hp). Potentially survivable (Con score depending), but painful as heck to a 6th-level wizard. That's totally houseruling a complex situation though. So it'd be your call.

Another_Poet
2010-07-21, 11:16 AM
What if one of the party members is an artificer?

The problem is that 4th+ level spells take 20 wizards and 3 days to cast so you can't activate them as a scroll.

Okay everyone.... Some good points were made about how some (by no means all) of the builds are so heavy on "theoretical optimization" that they are almost imaginary. In the original post I hinted that pun-pun levels of cheese won't be accepted as winners, and I think I need to clarify exactly what that means.


How Much Cheese is Too Much Cheese?

Much of optimization consists of cherry picking feats, abilities, spells and items from separate sources which may never have been foreseen by their authors to work together. This is acceptable and within the spirit of the contest. Choosing the best spell from A and the best metamagic feat from B and combining them for predictably strong results is just good optimization.

In some cases however, combinations of abilities from different sources are used in a loop to gain maxed or arbitrarily high abilities. Rather than adding feat X to spell Y and using the augmented effect, the build adds (for example) feat X to pump spell Y, plus ability Z to do the whole thing twice, and a third time, and a fourth time, over and over until artificially high results are obtained.

The classic example of this is Pun-Pun who uses a slurry of abilities to create a rules exploit which is then looped over and over as long as the player desires to acquire arbitrarily high ability scores. However, the same essential process is seen when using lucubration in a loop to gain 9th level spells at a low level, or by gaining taint over and over to power a character who is immune to the problems of taint.

In general, if your build simply uses a rules exploit, I consider it acceptable. If however it uses the same rules exploit over and over in a loop to gain much higher results than a simple use of the exploit could provide, You Have Climbed Pun-Pun's Staircase and your level of cheese is too much for this contest. Practical optimization lasts all the way up to and upon the landing of Pun-Pun's staircase. But once foot is placed on step and railing is grasped in hand, You Have Climbed Pun-Pun's Staircase.

:smallsmile:

Boci
2010-07-21, 11:24 AM
The problem is that 4th+ level spells take 20 wizards and 3 days to cast so you can't activate them as a scroll.

Surely the artificer can do it more quickly.

Hurlbut
2010-07-21, 11:34 AM
Seems like a fun challenge

I would point out that E6 already accounted for the possibility of higher CR creatures going up against an E6 party.


E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats under the same circumstances as high-level D&D characters; those creatures, if they are defeatable at all, require the kind of resources and planning far beyond the typical D&D encounter.

I believe if a party can defeat a Balor without having each of its member be one trick pony, they would be the best of the contestants.

Yora
2010-07-21, 11:53 AM
It really requires working with the dm. Something like allowing 20 6th level wizards to link their power to create a magical field that can crush a Balor, consuming the creatures weight in diamonds.

Another_Poet
2010-07-21, 12:09 PM
Surely the artificer can do it more quickly.

Unless there is an E6 artificier variant I'm unaware of (in which case show me!) I see no reason why.


I believe if a party can defeat a Balor without having each of its member be one trick pony, they would be the best of the contestants.

I agree. I would love to see more submissions using tactics rather than power builds. But ah well, playgrounders have found the efficient route and it is within the contest limits in most cases.


It really requires working with the dm. Something like allowing 20 6th level wizards to link their power to create a magical field that can crush a Balor, consuming the creatures weight in diamonds.

If you can afford it using the provided wealth and the standard rules for hiring casters, then it is allowed.

edit@swordguy: Point taken. Your tactic renders the death throes moot. I'll edit the main submission listing on the front page.

Boci
2010-07-21, 12:12 PM
Unless there is an E6 artificier variant I'm unaware of (in which case show me!) I see no reason why.

Because the artificer is the UMD class, and not making it an exception would really nerf it.

Another_Poet
2010-07-21, 12:18 PM
Because the artificer is the UMD class, and not making it an exception would really nerf it.

It gets all its normal UMD powers on CL 6 (or lower) 3rd level spell (or lower) scrolls.

You could make the same argument for the wizard. "But the wizard is the casting class, and not making an exception would really nerf it." Yep, E6 really nerfs D&D characters compared to normal 20 level play. That's the name of the game - and the challenge of this contest.

ap

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-21, 12:20 PM
Party:

The Stone-Cold Stunners

1) Warrior: Human Monk 6.

Feats and items are all geared toward stunning fist and making the character Wisdom SAD (intuitive attack, ability focus stunning fist, Exalted feat that gives a bonus to stunning fist, Ki Straps, Sun School, the monastic array, Decisive Strike class feature, etc. etc. I can get a stunning DC of 35, which the Balor will likely fail, especially given the below.)

2) Skill Monkey: Goliath Factotum 5

Font of Inspiration taken the maximum amount of times. Gear and feats optimized for extra attacks and luck re-rolls. (see strategy section for why)

3) Arcane Caster: Human Hexblade 6

Utilizing the Dark Companion alternate class feature, the Hexblade can reduce the Balor's saves by 2. Hexblade's Curse will probably fail, but it's a free action to use, so no big loss.

4) Divine Caster: Gnome Artificer 6

Before the fight, he uses a scroll of Planar Ally, Lesser to summon a Nightmare, which he compels to cast Etherealnes on the party, allowing them to approach. He will be calling on the Nightmare's Etherealness ability again a bit later. Also before the battle he'll be buffing the party with useful effects like flight, haste, and anything that gives luck rerolls.


Key Items:

Custom items of Wraith Strike or wand of wraitstrike. If needed this can be UMD'd.

Ring of Spell Battle

Strategy:


Prior to the fight, the Artificer buffs the party with extended flight and other helpful effects and infusions. He also summons a Nightmare has the Nightmare cast Etherealness on the party, which will allow them to approach and engage the balor, totally immune to its SLAs (Note: Greater Dispel Magic still works vs. the party, but if the Balor is dispelling, he's not not killing the party. As long as they can still approach and stun the balor, this strategy should work. By virtue of Dispel Magic going after the highest level spell, it will automatically hit the Etherealness. If successful, just go to round 1. Charge and attack. Alternatively, use Ring of Spell Battle to change the target of the dispel magic to the Balor himself). The party readies the following actions, keyed off Etherealness ending:

Monk: Attack the balor with stunning fist
Hexblade: Move dark companion next to Balor
Archivist: use wand of wraitstrike on the Monk if necessary (see above).


1st Round: The Jaunt ends. The Monk uses stunning fist on the balor. He hits thanks to wraithstrike. Thanks to Dark Companion, the Balor must roll a 15 or better to not be stunned. He is probably stunned. He DROPS HIS WHIP AND VORPAL SWORD. The factotum with a readied action to PICK UP THE VORPAL SWORD, which he can wield thanks to Powerful Build.

2nd Round:
Due to Wraith Strike and the stunned balor, the party now just had to hit AC 10 to inflict damage. The Monk will full attack with rapid stunning, decisive strike, and snap kick, haste etc. to get as many chances to stun the balor as possible. This will almost certainly ensure a second stun. Sun School triggers: the balor is now also confused for 1d4 rounds in the event he isn't repeatedly stunned every single round.

The Factotum full attacks with the vorpal sword, using his luck rerolls, extra attacks, etc to get as many chances to roll a 20 as possible. Thanks to the complete scoundrel luck feats, a roll of a 1 is treated as a 20, doubling his chances. The critical will be confirmed since he just needs to hit a 10, and can spend inspiration to ensure this happens.

The balor is dead.

If necessary this can be repeated for multiple rounds until it works. The chances of the balor pulling out of the stun lock is low.

To avoid death throes:

The nightmare readies an action to cast Etherealness if the Balor is killed, saving the party from the damage.



I'll think more on this and update later, but this should work.

Boci
2010-07-21, 12:20 PM
Yep, E6 really nerfs D&D characters compared to normal 20 level play.

No, it caps normal play at 6th level. A 6th level artificer can activate 4th level scrolls it made. This is pretty much a class feature for the artificer.

PId6
2010-07-21, 12:24 PM
Focused Enchanter 6

Race:

Air Goblin (+4 Dex)

Abilities: (before racial)

18 Dex
14+ Int

Trait:

Spellgifted (Enchantment)

ACF:

Spontaneous Divination

Feats:

Magical Aptitude
Arcane Thesis (Ray of Stupidity)
Fey Heritage
Fey Power
Fiendish Heritage
Fiendish Power
Snowcasting
Winter's Blast
Earth Spell
Metamagic Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Practical Metamagic (a bunch of times)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Dragontouched
Ability Training + Advancement (Dexterity)
Weapon Focus (Ray)
Arcane Mastery

Metamagic Feats: (adjustment after Arcane Thesis)

Corrupt Spell +0
Sanctum Spell -1
Invisible Spell -1
Cooperative Spell -1
Enlarge Spell +0
Silent Spell +0
Empower Spell +0 (Practical)
Maximize Spell +0 (Practical, School Focus)
Twin Spell +1 (Practical, School Focus)
Repeat Spell +0 (Practical, School Focus)
Heighten Spell +3

Items:

Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken
Ring of Arcane Might
Orange Ioun Stone
Gloves of Dexterity +6

Spells:

Heroism
Reduce Person
Invisibility
Corrupt Sanctum Invisible Cooperative Enlarged Silent Empowered Maximized Twinned Repeated Heightened (+3) Ray of Stupidity
Quickened (Rod) Corrupt Sanctum Invisible Cooperative Enlarged Silent Empowered Maximized Twinned Repeated Heightened (+3) Ray of Stupidity

Attack Bonus:

+3 (BAB) + 10 (Dex) + 2 (Heroism) + 2 (Size) + 1 Weapon Focus = +18 (fails touch on 1 only even with Unholy Aura)

Caster Level:

6 (Base) + 1 (Spellgifted) + 2 (Arcane Thesis) + 1 (Fey Power) + 1 (Corrupt Spell + Fiendish Power) + 1 (Snowcasting + Winter's Blast) + 3 (Heighten Spell + Earth Spell) + 1 (Ring of Arcane Might) + 1 (Orange Ioun Stone) = 17 (Enlarged Ray of Stupidity has a range of 130 ft)

Spell Penetration:

17 (Caster Level) + 4 (Greater Spell Penetration) + take 10 (Arcane Mastery) = 31 (automatic success vs SR)

"Damage":

(5 + (1d4+1)/2)x2 = 12 minimum each spell, plus 12 again next round, Quickened means 2 per round

Tactics:


Buff up, cast Invisibility, then get into position 130 ft away from it (outside range of True Seeing).
Cast Ray of Stupidity + Quickened Ray of Stupidity in one round. These fail only on attack rolls of natural 1, and cannot fail the SR check. Together, it's enough to knock it to 0 Int in one round; even if one fails, the repeats next round will kill it.
Coup de grace at leisure.

Glimbur
2010-07-21, 12:28 PM
Scroll of Ethereal Jaunt. This will make the party totally immune to all of the balors attacks until the spell is ended. This item is worth ANY cost.

Not true. Abjurations, like the Greater Dispel Magic the Balor has at will, reach Ethereal people just fine. Continuous True Seeing means that it can see ethereal people just fine.

Another_Poet
2010-07-21, 12:29 PM
No, it caps normal play at 6th level. A 6th level artificer can activate 4th level scrolls it made. This is pretty much a class feature for the artificer.


My apologies. In that case then yes, an artificer can make whatever scrolls it can make at 6th level, up to and including 4th level scrolls.

For rules consistency 4th or higher level scrolls still aren't available for purchase, so a party artificer is needed to have them, and it must be something the artificer can make a scroll of at 6th level (so it's either on their "spell" list or they have gotten access to it some other way).

Guard Juris, you might want to take this post into consideration too as your team relies on a 7th level scroll which is not allowed.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-21, 12:35 PM
I finished mine.

Honestly, it was mostly irrelevant save for lesser orbs of fire(turned into sonic), and wands of wings of cover. The rest just ensured that if he won init, and started a balor summoning chain, we could kill them all.

Boci
2010-07-21, 12:36 PM
My apologies. In that case then yes, an artificer can make whatever scrolls it can make at 6th level, up to and including 4th level scrolls.

For rules consistency 4th or higher level scrolls still aren't available for purchase, so a party artificer is needed to have them, and it must be something the artificer can make a scroll of at 6th level (so it's either on their "spell" list or they have gotten access to it some other way).

Guard Juris, you might want to take this post onto consideration too as your team relies on a 7th level scroll which is not allowed.

Basically, artificers can craft scrolls as if they were 2 levels higher, so a 6th level artificer can craft 4th level scrolls, but they will still need to succeed on a UMD check to activate it.

PId6
2010-07-21, 12:42 PM
Changed mine to trade Greater Invisibility for Invisibility.

Adumbration
2010-07-21, 12:44 PM
The Judge (Human Cleric 6)
Feats:
Extend spell
Reach spell
Quicken spell
Persist spell
Maximize
Empower
DMM: Empower
DMM: Maximize
DMM: Persist
DMM: Extend
DMM: Reach
DMM: Quicken
Extra turning
Extra turning
Extra turning
Extra turning
Extra turning
Extra turning
Spell penetration
Greater spell penetration
Necropolis born
Arcane mastery
Claws of the beast
Cloak of the Obyrith
Chaotic Spell recall
Demonic skin
Eyes of the abyss
Heart of the Nabassu
Keeper of Forbidden lore
Otherworldly countenance
Poison talons
Precognitive visions
Primordial Scion
Vestigial wings
Willing deformity
WD: Madness

Equipment:
Spellblade dagger (implosion)

Tactics:
Use DMM reached, maximized and empowered Shivering Touch, taking 10 on caster level checks with Arcane Mastery (qualified for with Necropolis Born) and after using Assay Spell resistance, automatically overcoming the SR and dealing 18+(3d6/2) dexterity damage. Touch attack is not an autohit, but in combination with the wizard attack, either or both should succeed.

Defences:
DR 13/lawful, immunity to mind-affecting, +7 natural AC, ability absorb 13 negative levels as well as CE alignment to negate Blasphemy.


The Jury (Sorcerer 6)
Feats:
Arcane mastery
Claws of the beast
Cloak of the Obyrith
Chaotic Spell recall
Demonic skin
Eyes of the abyss
Heart of the Nabassu
Keeper of Forbidden lore
Otherworldly countenance
Poison talons
Precognitive visions
Primordial Scion
Vestigial wings
Willing deformity
WD: Madness
Spell penetration
Greater spell penetration
Sudden extend
Sudden empower
Sudden maximize
Sudden still
Sudden widen
Quicken spell
Sudden quicken
Reach spell
Practical metamagic: reach spell
Arcane thesis: shivering touch

Equipment:
Spellblade dagger (implosion)

Tactics:
Reached sudden maximized, empowered shivering touch - the same deal as with the cleric. This is for redundancy in case he misses. Sudden quicken is for True strike to ensure the hit.


The Executioner (Dragonborn Water Orc Orc Warblade 6)
Feats:
Claws of the beast
Cloak of the Obyrith
Chaotic Spell recall
Demonic skin
Eyes of the abyss
Heart of the Nabassu
Keeper of Forbidden lore
Otherworldly countenance
Poison talons
Precognitive visions
Primordial Scion
Vestigial wings
Willing deformity
WD: Madness
Skill focus (profession (executioner))

Equipment:
Headsman's axe
Spellblade dagger (implosion)

Tactics:
Stay alive until the mages of the group paralyze the Balor, and then use the Headsman's axe to execute the demon. All that's required is a DC 18 Profession (executioner) check and the demon is automatically dead. On a failure, coup de grace and try again next round.


The Bystander (Factotum 6)
This is essentially the dude that will stand around within earsight but not in range of any hostile ability. If the Executioner bites the dust, he's called to perform the duty. Otherwise, he just hangs back.

All of them can withstand a full-attack by the balor, are immune to mind-affecting and blasphemy. The Spellblade dagger protects them against the Implosion, and on the next round the Balor faces 2 counts of Empowered, Maximized and Reached Shivering touches.

After that it's a simple Profession (executioner) check.

Cybren
2010-07-21, 01:20 PM
Also if your build wins you can expect some of the 200 words of praise to mock you for whining about the rules of a contest instead of trying to come up with a a clever entry that succeeds within the rules of the contest. But some of the 200 words will still be praise. Maybe even 100 or more!

he's not the one whining

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-21, 01:39 PM
Not true. Abjurations, like the Greater Dispel Magic the Balor has at will, reach Ethereal people just fine. Continuous True Seeing means that it can see ethereal people just fine.

Doesn't particularly matter, as if he is using is standard action to dispel, he isn't killing us. Stunning fist should work regardless. non?

Ingus
2010-07-21, 01:48 PM
Premise: all PCs are made out of 36 point buy.

The Party

Fast and Furious, halfling Fighter 6 (the Warrior)
Relevant Abilities: Dex 18 (20 gloves), Wis 18 (28 spell)
Relevant feats: Improved Initiative, Blooded (PGtF), Yondalla's Sense (RotW), Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv) any eligible luck feat (CSco)
Relevant Spells active: Skittish Nerves (MoF), Sign (SC), Owl's Insight*
Relevant Equipment: +1 Eager Dagger, Gloves of Dex +2, Martial Script: White Raven Tactics
*customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 5 x 20 x 2.000 / 5 = 40.000 Gp
Initiative: +32

Yondallo, halfling Cleric 6 (the Cleric)
Relevant Abilities: Wis 14 (at least)
Relevant Feats: Initiate of Gond
Trait: Spellgifted (Conjuration)
Relevant Spells active: Resist Energy
Relevant Equipment: Ioun Stone, Orange Prism; Scroll of Dimension Door x2; Martial Script: White Raven Tactics (used, active)

Singing Happy Big Guy (SHBG), human Bard 6 (the skill monkey)
Relevant Abilities: Wis 18 Cha 18
Relevant Feats: Skill Focus:UMD, all viable Luck Feats (CSco), Weapon Focus: Touch spells
Relevant Spells Active: Wieldskill (from scroll) (MoF), Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Insight* Moment of Prescience**, Surge of Fortune***, Resist Energy
Relevant Equipment: Otto Irresistible Dance scroll, Maximized Shivering Touch scroll.
Martial Script: White Raven Tactics (used, active)
Relevant Skills: UMD +17 (+29 with Wieldskill and Eagle's Splendor)
*customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 5 x 20 x 2.000 / 5 = 40.000 Gp
**customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 9 x 20 x 2.000 /5 = 72.000
***customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 5 x 20 x 2.000 / 5 = 40.000 Gp
To-Hit, touch: +14

Tremendous the Terribly Tremendous (TTT), halfling Warlock 6 (the Caster)
Relevant Abilities: Cha 18
Relevant Feats: Skill Focus: UMD, all viable Luck Feats (CSco)
Relevant Spells Active: Wieldskill (from scroll), Eagle's Splendor, Moment of Prescience**, Surge of Fortune***
Relevant Equipment: Reality Maelstrom scroll.
Relevant Skills: UMD +17 (+27 with Wieldskill and Eagle's Splendor)
**customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 9 x 20 x 2.000 /5 = 72.000
***customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 5 x 20 x 2.000 / 5 = 40.000 Gp

The Showdown

Initiative roll. Fast and Furious role is to win initiative by more than 4 point from the Balor. Provided an unlikely roll of 20 from the Balor, he wins by more than 4 with a roll of 4 or more, which he can reroll quite a few times with Luck feats. Then his only other task is to use White Raven Tactics to grant Yondallo same initiative -1.
At this point, Yondallo uses his Dimension Door scroll to transport himself and SHBG near the Balor and use White Raven Tactics to grant SHBG the initiative exactly below him. Mind that he has a caster level of 8 for the purpose of conjuration spells, so he doesn't need a CL check.
SHBG uses Wieldskill for the UMD check to use the scroll of Otto Irresistible Dance, Surge of Fortune spell to the to-hit and Moment of Prescience for the SR. With a contact AC of 16 he fails only with a 1 (but with Better Lucky than Good KLuck Feat he can treat it as a natural 20).
Now the Balor is dancing and doesn't really matter who's first among him and TTT.
TTT now waits
(insert before or after the Balor)
Fast and Furious run away.
Yondallo delays to a -2 initiative
SHBG uses the scroll of Shivering Touch to hit the Balor Dexterity (with a +14 to-hit at contact and Better Luck than Good, he hits automatically) and uses White Raven Tactics to grant TTT a -1 rank in initiative.
Yondallo uses the other Dimension Door to bring along SHBG, far away.
TTT now casts Reality Maelstrom (DC 20 Will or Reflex).
The Balor should now have a Reflex save of 3, so there is a likey good bye to another random plane, Balor. If not, add to the build two wish scrolls to force a second roll.

The Shadowmind
2010-07-21, 01:50 PM
What about having the healbot cleric use animate dead to make many skeletons, have the skeletons manning several "Catapult, light (550gp each) or Ballistas (500gp)", each catapult "rock" being a bundle of Holy water 2d4 x times or tied to the Ballista bolts, 25gp each per holy water. Have a Tainted Sorcerer necropolitan casting Invisibility on the skeletons, which since you will be over 120ft away the Balor's true seeing won't work. The only trouble is getting the Balor to be still for 1 turn.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-21, 01:55 PM
Updated my post. Strategy no longer requires scroll of Ethereal Jaunt. Also, now the entire party survives the encounter! Hooray!

EDIT: I move that I receive bonus points for beating a balor with a monk. An exalted good Monk! That is all.

ko_sct
2010-07-21, 02:03 PM
Never did TO but I started making a group for this challenge.

It’s not finished but so far i can say this: hate those alignment restriction :smallfurious:

Thing is that I’m trying to make a group of good-aligned hero who could face a balor in a real fight with only some small ambush and no cheese. And I keep finding things like Deformity (tongue) (wanted to throw in some fog to help in melee) but it’s evil-only :smallfurious:

true_shinken
2010-07-21, 02:28 PM
And that's why this works.

You don't get my point.
The Balor has Int& Wis 24. If there is a way he could be killed by 'mere mortals' like you pointed, he already knows there is such a way and therefore should act with caution.
Being evil does not mean being stupid. He likes to terrify people. Whatever. The longer he lives, the more people he terrifies.


Initiative roll. Fast and Furious role is to win initiative by more than 4 point from the Balor.

Love your tactics, Ingus. Still, the Balor would probably get a surprise round before initiative was rolled.

monkey3
2010-07-21, 02:29 PM
The Ironmen: an all warforged strike team.

Wizard role: Necron
Cleric role: Doomsday
Rogue role: Geryon
Fighter Role: Kane, Using Astral construct
This strike team can take most anything at a rate of 1/day and then sleeping it off underground.

1) Necron: Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1
Feats Mindsight, Arcane Disciple (Undeath domain)
Items: Burrowing Saddle,
Skills: Ride (cc)

2) Doomsday: Telepath Psion 6
Power: Ego Whip, Clairvoyant Sense
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Meditation, Burrowing Power, Clairvoyant Sense (extra power), Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration Body Fuel
Items: Burrowing Saddle
Skills: Max Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Ride (cc)

3) Geryon: Seer Psion 6
Power: Ego Whip, Clairvoyant Sense
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Meditation, Burrowing Power, Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration Body Fuel
Items: Burrowing Saddle
Skill: Max listen, spot, Ride (cc)

4) Kane: Shaper Psion 6
Power: Ego Whip, Clairvoyant Sense, Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration
Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Meditation, Burrowing Power , Astral construct, Body Fuel
Items: Burrowing Saddle
Skill: Max listen, spot, Ride (cc)

Int stat for all: 18 start, +1 lvl, + 6 for headband, + 5 for Tome of Mighty Intellect. = 30

Items for all Psionics: Third Eye Penetrate: grants the wearer a +2 bonus on manifester level checks to overcome a creature’s power resistance 8K. Also pile on +Psicraft items for Burrowing power.

Overcoming SR 28 (power resistance): Our psions are level 6 and have +10 (Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration, Third Eye Penetrate) to their ML, so they need to roll a 12+ each time. They fail on 11-. So all psionic damage should be multiplied by .45 to get average damage.

Using the Undeath domain, Necron creates (Animate Dead) a Desecrated (+2hp/hd not that it matters) Skeletal Bullet. The gang rides on the inside (fluff), but I paid for the burrowing saddles to mitigate any crunch concerns.

Tactics:

The party rides their undead Bullet under ground to within 100' of the Balor. They don't need to breathe since they are warforged, so they can take their time getting there.

Necron pin-points location using Mindsight and communicates location to party via telepathy (Necron's or the telepaths doesn't matter). Each Psion casts a Burrowed Clairvoyant Sense to get a visual on the target. Then they cast Ego whip each round until they fall over

The 3 Psions have to remain 5' under ground where they are safe from everything the Balor does, including death throws. Necron is expendable after the beginning, so he can surface somewhere (the next room) and throw summoned targets at the Balor to keep it busy, and just keep figuring out what is going on.

Ego Whip does 2.5 damage per cast (1-4), will half. with int 30, it has a DC of 22
Accounting for SR: 2.5 * 45% = 1.125
Will +19 save for half: 1.125 * 55% (balor saves on a 3) = .7
3 caster: .7 * 3 = 2.1
Total round to kill balor: 26 chr / 2.1 = 12.3

Dead balor in 13 rounds max :)

Power required: 5 (burrowing + Ego whip) * 13 + 5 (Clairvoyant + burrowing) = 78
Power points for lvl 6 psion: 35 + 30 (int) = 65
Use Body Fuel, and power batteries to make up for the deficit.

I can add more detail, and cut down the #round required by boosting the DC, and increasing the ML to overcome SR, but I have spent way too much time already :)

I was toying with the idea of calling the teal the I-Team and the Bullet the I-Team Van.

Glimbur
2010-07-21, 02:30 PM
It’s not finished but so far i can say this: hate those alignment restriction :smallfurious:

An alternate way of dodging death by blasphemy instead of being Evil is being inside a Silence. Creatures have to hear the word to be affected, so you could instead Deafen your party. The 20% failure chance on spells with verbal components would be painful, but with enough feats you can probably power your way through to Silent Spell everything.

ko_sct
2010-07-21, 02:39 PM
I already know about silence, I intend all my character to be under the spell, then boost my caster level by one and cast 10 or so useless buff so they get dispelled first. Thing is that I wanted to get quite a few willing deformity on all of my character but cant.

Also, sudden silent spell, with 35+ feats someone can take it 5-7 time for the duration of the fight.


Now I got a question concerning Necropolitans, can I have one of my caster take a bunch of corpse crafter feats and transform the rest of the group in super-Necropolitans ? I find the description quite unclair on who can be the creator and who can’t.

Ingus
2010-07-21, 04:29 PM
Edited.

Cancellations in barred, addictions in italics

[QUOTE=Ingus;8972682]Premise: all PCs are made out of 36 point buy.

The Party

Fast and Furious, halfling Fighter 6 (the Warrior)
Relevant Abilities: Dex 18 (20 gloves), Wis 18 (28 spell)
Relevant feats: Improved Initiative, Blooded (PGtF), Yondalla's Sense (RotW), Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv) any eligible luck feat (CSco)
Relevant Spells active: Skittish Nerves (MoF), Sign (SC), Owl's Insight*
Relevant Equipment: +1 Eager Dagger, Gloves of Dex +2, Martial Script: White Raven Tactics
*customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 5 x 20 x 2.000 / 5 = 40.000 Gp
Initiative: +32

Yondallo, halfling Cleric 6 (the Cleric)
Relevant Abilities: Wis 14 (at least)
Relevant Feats: Initiate of Gond
Trait: Spellgifted (Conjuration)
Relevant Spells active: Resist Energy
Relevant Equipment: Ioun Stone, Orange Prism; Scroll Stone of Dimension Door x2*°; Martial Script: White Raven Tactics (used, active)
*°[I]**** customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 4 x 7 x 2.000 / 5 = 10.800

Singing Happy Big Guy (SHBG), human Bard Sorcerer 6 (the skill monkey Caster)
Relevant Abilities: Wis 18 Cha 18
Relevant Feats: Skill Focus:UMD, all viable Luck Feats (CSco), Weapon Focus: Touch spells, Sudden Maximize spell (CAr), Sudden Empower spell (CAr)
Relevant Spells Active: Wieldskill (from scroll) (MoF), Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Insight* Moment of Prescience**, Surge of Fortune***, Resist Energy
Relevant Equipment: Otto Irresistible Dance scroll, Maximized Shivering Touch scroll. Sphere of Reality Maelstrom (PlH)*****, Belt of Battle
Relevant Spells: Shivering Touch
Relevant possessions: Contingency item (CDiv): Wish
Martial Script: White Raven Tactics (used, active)
Relevant Skills: UMD +17 (+29 with Wieldskill and Eagle's Splendor)
*customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 5 x 20 x 2.000 / 5 = 40.000 Gp
**customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 9 x 20 x 2.000 /5 = 72.000
***customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 5 x 20 x 2.000 / 5 = 40.000 Gp
To-Hit, touch: +14
**** customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 8 x 15 x 2.000 / 5 = 48.000
*****customary item: use activated, 1/day, charges 1 charge. Price: (spell Lvl x inc. Lvl x 2.000) / 2 / 50 x 20 = 7 x 13 x 2.000 / 5 = 36.400

Re-edit. If the fourth group member is compulsory, then...
Elan, Bard 6 (the skill monkey)
He does nothing, but he looks soooooo cute


The Showdown

Initiative roll. Fast and Furious role is to win initiative by more than 3 point from the Balor. Provided an unlikely roll of 20 from the Balor, he wins by more than 3 with a roll of 3 or more, which he can reroll quite a few times with Luck feats. Then his only other task is to use White Raven Tactics to grant Yondallo same initiative -1.
At this point, Yondallo uses his Dimension Door scroll boots to transport himself and SHBG near the Balor and use White Raven Tactics to grant SHBG the initiative exactly below him. Mind that he has a caster level of 8 for the purpose of conjuration spells, so he doesn't need a CL check.
(Edited since now)
SHBG goes with a touch attack for a Maximized, Empowered Shivering Touch, using Surge of Fortune for the to-hit (nat. 20) and Moment of Prescience for the SR (no failure). The Balor's Dexterity should now be below 0. In case this would trigger the Balor's explosion, the Contingent Wish would come in action and SHBG will wish the teleportation of all the party in the best tavern of their world. If not, they still have a way.
SHBG uses Belt of Battle to have another standard action, then he uses the Reality Maelstrom sphere (Will, then Reflex or throw in a random plane) to put away the Balor. In the same time, the contingent Wish activates itself and see above.

Shifted in a random plane is, I guess, like overcomed.

Note: the Contingency Item activation should be "just a moment before I'm going to suffer a phisical or psichical harm, or being teleported or shifted to another plane of existence without my consent

Malakar
2010-07-21, 04:55 PM
And that's why this works. In a setting where the DM cares whatsoever about the verisimilitude of his game universe and doesn't just play a tactical wargame against his players where the bad guys always take the tactically optimal solution, this plan fails. I do not believe that setting is what is intended. I believe the DM running the Balor would take its cruelty, its malice, and its will to inflict suffering into account when running the monster. What better way to inflict fear on an adventurer than to treat them the same way they've treated legions of weaker foes before? He'll do it kick in the door-style. And it's that very psychological predilection of the creature that, in my submission, I exploit.

See, that's where you are wrong. Verisimilitude A) involves a Blaor making reflex saves when standing on a salve of slipperiness. B) is something that varies from person to person.

In an e6 world, Pit Fiends still exist, and can set traps, so there is no reason for a Balor to act any less careful than any other situation.

So just saying arbitrarily that your strategy would work if a DM cared about Verisimilitude is wrong, and insulting. There are lots of reasons that it might fail, like that the Balor decides to fly around the building pulling the walls down one by one laughing and taunting his enemies.

true_shinken
2010-07-21, 05:17 PM
Stuff

Wish? Contingency? This is E6 O.o

Another_Poet
2010-07-21, 06:04 PM
/CONTEST CLOSED/


/CONTEST CLOSED/


/CONTEST CLOSED/


We have enough submissions now. If you have already begun to post one, or posted one and were asked (or promised) to make changes or add more detail, you may still do so.

I will edit the first post too!

@monkey3: Is Kane named after the bad guy from Robocop II?

Lans
2010-07-21, 06:16 PM
I just started building my party is it okay if I finish it?
Fighter 4/ psychic Warrior 2
Battle Sorcerer 6
Scout 5/Incarnate1
Other

Idea was 4 people deep impacting with thrown weapons to dazelock it, so it had to kill all of them in 1 round to avoid death

Ernir
2010-07-21, 06:43 PM
Looks like I'm late to the party (****ing internet, sure picked a good time to go down... :smallmad:), but I had a question I hope I wasn't the only one to have...

How exactly does taking a race with LA affect the character? As in... how many (bonus) feats and what point buy is a LA+X character supposed to have/use? The way I am looking at it in the original post, any LA at all above 0 costs a flat six feats, which can't be right. :smallconfused:

Ingus
2010-07-21, 06:44 PM
Wish? Contingency? This is E6 O.o

From the first post:
"Gear built with 4th level spells or higher OR CL7+ costs 20x the listed price because it takes 20 mages to enchant it."
So, it is possible to craft items with higher level requirements.
The Craft Contingency Item feat allows you so. That's it :smallwink:

true_shinken
2010-07-21, 06:52 PM
From the first post:
"Gear built with 4th level spells or higher OR CL7+ costs 20x the listed price because it takes 20 mages to enchant it."
So, it is possible to craft items with higher level requirements.
The Craft Contingency Item feat allows you so. That's it :smallwink:

Well, it's the OP's fault, then ^^
Silly, silly ruling. No point in E6 then...

Lhurgyof
2010-07-21, 07:41 PM
Marley, Thogg, Ith, and Lars are gathered at a table, in a basement where they lured the Balor. The Balor pops in and goes on his evil rant, but is shushed by Lars. Astounded, the Balor decided to watch them. They have sheets of parchment with off numbers and symbols, and are rolling dice, while Lars spins a great tale...
"What's an AC, mortal?" asks the Balor, and Lars grudgingly explains to the Balor what's going on.
Oh, the stories Lars tells, and the way the others interact. It's quite thrilling, and grabs the attention of said Balor. After a while, he asks to "make a character". "Fine", Lars says.
And then the Balor is enveloped into the game and slowly forgets about killing the mortals.
He goes back home and tries to play with the other fiends, who mock him and his guts. The Balor's self confidence hits an all time low and ends up begging the mortals to let him play.

Party: 1. Balor: 0.

Best thing that I could come up with that doesn't involve marbles. xD

Vulaas
2010-07-21, 07:42 PM
Damn.

I had a very RPG-ish idea.

Commoner - The Pokemon Trainer Protagonist
Seer - The Wise Man Who Tells You The Main Plot
Commoner - Another Yokel Caught Up In Your Shenanigans
Bard - Comic Relief

Lhurgyof
2010-07-21, 07:47 PM
Commoner - The Pokemon Trainer Protagonist


BEHIR! USE THUNDERSHOCK!

monkey3
2010-07-21, 08:27 PM
[SIZE="6"]
@monkey3: Is Kane named after the bad guy from Robocop II?

All the characters are names after my ex-characters.

The original Kane was named after a fantasy novel protagonist (like Conan). In the series Kane pissed off some god, and the god cursed him such that Kane could not die unless it was in a really gruesome battle. Well, that's the same thing as being ageless; so Kane goes through life fighting so much and gaining levels so much that is is nigh-invulnerable...

dextercorvia
2010-07-21, 08:39 PM
I'm out. I had ideas for toning it down this morning to fit with the new cheese limits, but I'm focusing my free time on getting my submission in to Iron Chef.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-21, 08:42 PM
(Edit during mid-build: I just saw the post that said the contest was closed, I understand if you wish to ignore this post, however, I've put quite a bit of work into it thus-far and would at lest like to post it for analyses from bored readers. Also since it's closed I won't bother to finish the last three characters, just give an idea of what they're built towards for sake of discussion.)
(Second Edit: Exchanged Easy Metamagic with Practical Metamagic (Assuming a Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies, which would be downright amazing if it didn't))

Aw, heck, might as well try just for fun. These guys are made assuming 32-point buy. I doubt I've covered every contingency, but I'm attempting it without cheesing up the place to the highest levels, although I'll admit, I've used some cheesy things here (Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold and DMM) albeit, not to their most optimized.

Everyone is buffed with Protection from Evil, Protection from Fire 120, Death Ward, Skittish Nerves, and Displacement (So if the Balor turns off his True Seeing, and decides to melee, he'll have a harder time taking things down instantly.)

Caster:

One-Whose-Magic-Supersedes-Comprehension
Loredrake Dragonwrought Venerable Earth Kobold (Evil)
(-2 STR, -2 Con)
Sorcerer 6 (Effective Sorcerer Level 9)
STR: 6 DEX: 26 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 24

To-Hit on Rays: 24 (+3 BaB, +8 Dex, +1 Size, +12 from Inspire Courage) (Hits on a 2)
Initiative: 31 (Wins on a 1, should by all means kill the Balor before it can act)
HP: 38

Initiative:
Dex: +8
Imp: +4
Skittish: +5 (Untyped)
Primal Instinct: +5 (Comp)
Sign: +4 (Untyped)
Warning Dagger: +5 (Insight)

Persisted Spells:
Chained Skittish Nerves (Lvl: 4) (Cast By OWMSC)
Primal Instinct (Not Persisted, duration is simply 24 hours)

Feats:

Dragonwrought
Arcane Thesis: Skittish Nerves
Arcane Thesis Scorching Ray
Reserves of Strength
Spell Focus: Evocation
Metamagic School Focus: Evocation
Spell Focus: Transmutation
Metamagic School Focus: Transmutation
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Twin Spell
Practical Metamagic: Twin
Energy Substitution: Cold
Energy Admixture: Cold
Practical Metamagic: Energy Admixture: Cold
Repeat Spell
Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell
Chain Spell
Arcane Thesis: Ruin Delver's Fortune
Practical Metamagic: Quicken Spell
Maximize Spell
Empower Spell
Fortify Spell
Ocular Spell
Extend Spell
Persist Spell
Practical Metamagic: Persist Spell
Split Ray
Improved Initiative
Ability Training: Dex
Ability Advancement: Dex
Ability Training: Con
Ability Advancement: Con
Improved Toughness
Lightning Reflexes
Metamagic Vigor
Winter's Blast
Extra Spell


Items:
+6 Dex Gloves: 720,000
+6 Con Neck: 720,000
+4 Charisma Cloak: 320,000
+5 Vest of Resistance: 500,000
Ring of Evasion 500,000
Terran Brandy 1,000
+1 Warning Dagger: 8,000

Main Damage Output:

First round:
Assay Spell Resistance

4 Scorching Rays (Cast at CL 19, CL 35 for SR Checks)
These are Ocular Spells, and I used Reserves of Strength (+3) on them to break standard CL restrictions on the spell.

Modified With:
Energy Substitution (Cold) +0
Energy Admixture (Cold) +1
Twin Spell +1
Repeat Spell +0
Fortify Spell +0 (+2 to SR checks)
Ocular Spell +0
Maximize Spell +0
Empower Spell +0
Split Ray +0

24 Rays First Round, Each Dealing: 34 Cold Damage (Includes his resistance)
24 Rays Second Round Each Dealing: 34 Cold Damage (Includes his resistance)

Assuming they all hit, the second round will kill him as it all totals to 1632 Cold damage from this character alone, however, we all know that he can roll some 1s, so it's not a guaranteed victory, but thats what we have 3 other friends for. For the following rounds he will cast Scorching Ray with Twin, Repeat, Fortify, Maximize, Empower, EnSub, EnAd. He can do this for approximately 4 rounds before running out of higher level spells and moving to others. Assuming the Sorcerer goes first, he needs to hit/make the caster level checks (Should auto-make depending on if Assay works with the Ocular Spells, if it doesn't he'll wait to set it up at 130 distance.) of at least 14 rays.

This guy has been designed to be the main hitter, and the surviver of the party, and as such most of the party channels it's money into items for him. He does use Wings of Cover whenever possible to block incoming spells to the party, how he uses it depends on how the DM decides the Balor is found more specifically than assuming buff rounds. Typically the party would summon the wolves, buff up, let the wolves and pet charge in with an Invisible Fog Cloud active, and then the Sorcerer would walk up adjacent to the Cleric and Druid until the druid gets close enough to charge/the sorcerer gets close enough to unleash his ocular spells.

To survive the death throws he uses an Extended Ruin Delvers Fortune+ Wings of Cover for a total reflex bonus of 28, The cleric uses Alter Fortune if the Sorcerer rolls a 1, and the Sorcerer has a Ring of Evasion to negate all damage.


Support:

Cleric 6 (Neutral)
Lesser Aasimar
(+2 Wis, +2 Cha)
STR: 8 DEX: 8 CON: 8 INT: 8 WIS: 20 CHA: 18

Initiative: +4

Main role is to cast Protection from Energy (for it's full 120 reduction, which will save us from the Fire Storm), Death Ward (via Versatile Spell caster and delayed prep), Protection from Evil (To protect against Dominate and maybe Insanity) chained via DMM or normal means.

Feats (38):
Versatile Spellcaster
Chain Spell
DMM: Chain Spell
Extra Turning
34x Extra Slot

Warrior:

Druid 6
Venerable Lesser Aasimar (Evil)
(-6 Str, -6 Dex, -6 Con, +3 Int, +5 Wis, +5 Cha)
Stats: STR: 2 DEX: 2 CON: 2 INT: 19 WIS: 23 CHA: 18
Stats in Fleshraker form: STR: 17 DEX: 19 CON: 15 INT: 19 WIS: 24 CHA: 18

Initiative: +8

Meant to be a distraction, uses summons/shapeshift to distract the Balor to attack them on the first round, or at least cast a Blasphemy/Firestorm Combo.

Casts Invisible Fog Cloud to confuse the Balor for a short period of time, this is an attempt at getting him to cast his AoE spells and not have LoE for something like Telekinesis, Insanity, Implosion.

All extra spell slots are dedicated to having the highest summoning spells he has availible (Nothing above SM4 though) and an equal number of Greater Magic Fangs.

Feats (38):

Spell Focus: Conjuration
Augment Summoning
Natural Spell
Invisible Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Ashbound
Imbue Summoning
Arcane Thesis: Summon Monster 4
Metamagic School Focus Conjuration
Versatile Spellcaster
Improved Initiative
27x Extra Slot



Skill Monkey:

Donac Blonard (Good)
Silverbrow Human

When Polymorphed into a Centaur and with Bulls Strength Active:
STR: 22 DEX: 14 CON: 15 INT: 16 WIS: 14 CHA: 18

HP: 126

Mostly just optimizes Inspire Courage up to about +12. He doubles up with Dragonfire Inspiration: Sonic and normal Inspire Courage. He will also be using a whip to attempt to trip the Balor. His to-hit bonus is 23. Strength Check: +14

Feats (39):
Words of Creation
Song of the Heart
Dragonfire Inspiration
Lindering Song
Improved Toughness
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Toughness x27
Ability Training: Con
Ability Advancement: Con
Bardic Inspiration
Skill Beyond Your Years
Green Ear


Items:
Badge of Valor
Masterwork Instrument
Harmonizing Whip +3

1 Fleshraker Pet
Yet to be stated, isn't really necessary unless I get challenged to play.

8 Greenbound Dire Wolves (Summoned by the Druid)

Size/Type: Large Plant (Augmented Animal)
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (57 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +9 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+31
Attack: Bite +31 melee (1d8+29+12d6 Sonic)
Full Attack: Bite +31 melee (1d8+29+12d6 Sonic)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Magic and Slashing, Fast Healing 3, Grapple Bonus +4, Resistance to Cold and Electricity 10, Tremorsense 60', Plant Qualities (Immune to Crits, All Mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6
(When Buffed with Bulls Strength):
Abilities: Str 39, Dex 17, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 14

Trip (Ex)
A dire wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+18 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the dire wolf.

Skills
A dire wolf has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.

*It also has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

dextercorvia
2010-07-21, 08:46 PM
Stuff

I noticed you used Easy Metamagic. Dragon Mag is out.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-21, 08:52 PM
What's the status of my entry? I don't see it on your entries spoiler. I'm rather proud of my monk-based strategy!

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-21, 08:59 PM
I noticed you used Easy Metamagic. Dragon Mag is out.

Thought Easy and Practical were the same, so I typed Easy because it had less characters, I have subbed in Practical, however if Dragonwrought doesn't qualify, I'm not sure how to get around it without Sanctum spell cheese, which I abhor.

JeminiZero
2010-07-21, 09:06 PM
Guardian of Wings
How to kill a Balor without using any spell above level 3, AND a well rounded party. Note that the scheme described below is the "Bare Minimum" required for the plan to work. More tweaks are described in the "From Minimum to Dedication" section at the end.

Edit: Added Initiative Boosters
Edit 2: Added tweaks for more dedicated parties.

Party Setup
The following party outlines how to survive a Balor for several rounds. Only the Meatshield, Skill Monkey and Healbot are built according to anything resembling strict guidelines. The Arcanist can be anything that can bring the Balor down in one round. Previous posters have used Enervation, Shivering Touch and the like. For this exercise I will be using that crowd pleaser, mass explosive runes.

Meatshield:

Race: Any
Alignment: Any Evil
Class: 1 Marshal / 5 Other Warrior Class (probably Crusader, Cleric or Favored Soul for Cha synergy)
Point Buy: Aim for at least 14 Cha, to Motivate Dexterity for Initiative
Feats:
-Extra Favored Class Marshal (if not human)

Items:
-Contingent Spell: If I am subject to a targetted attack while flat-footed, trigger Wings of Cover (2 SL x 3 CL x 100 gp = 600 gp).
-Potion of Eagle Splendour (SL 2 x CL 3 x 25 gp = 150 gp)


Skill Monkey:

Race: Any
Alignment: Any Evil
Class: Beguiler
Point Buy: Aim for at least 14 Dex
Feats:
-Dragon Touched (Gain Dragonblood subtype)
-Extra Spell Known: Wings of Cover
-Arcane Thesis: Wings of Cover (+2 to CL)
-Invisible Needle OR Blade of Force (+1 CL to force spells)
-Arcane Mastery

-Improved Initiative (+4)
-Spell Focus Divination
-Insightful Divination (Complete Mage: Gain spell level + 1 bonus to initiative for 24 hrs)
-Quick Reconnoiter (Complete Adventurer: Spot + Listen as free actions, +2 to initiative)
-Danger Sense (Complete Adventurer: reroll Initiative 1/day)

Items:
-Contingent Spell: If I am subject to a targetted attack while flat-footed, trigger Wings of Cover (2 SL x 3 CL x 100 gp = 600 gp).
-Custom Item of Command Word: Dimension Step at will (SL 3 x CL 6 x 1,800 gp = 32,400 gp)
-Custom Item of Constant Nerve Skitter (SL 1 x CL 1 x 2,000 gp x 4 (duration in rounds) = 8,000 gp)
-Potion of Sign [Spell Commpendium] (SL 1 x CL 1 x 25 gp = 25 gp)
-Potion of Cat's Grace (SL 2 x CL 3 x 25 gp = 150 gp)

Initiative:
+4 (14 base dex + 4 Cat's Grace)
+4 (Improved Initiative)
+5 (Nerve Skitter)
+4 (Sign)
+4 (Insightful Divination)
+4 (Marshal's Motivate Dexterity)
+2 (Quick Reconnoiter)
= 27 (Balor has initiative of +11 for a max of +31. Can beat Balor's Initiative with a 4 and can Roll twice and take the better of the 2)


Healbot:

Race: Any
Alignment: Any Evil
Class: Any Full Caster
Point Buy: Aim for at least 14 Dex
Feats:
-Dragon Touched (Gain Dragonblood subtype)
-Extra Spell Known: Wings of Cover
-Arcane Thesis: Wings of Cover (+2 to CL)
-Invisible Needle OR Blade of Force (+1 CL to force spells)
-Magical Training (grants a couple of Wiz/Sorc cantrips, and used to qualify for...)
-Arcane Mastery


-Improved Initiative (+4)
-Spell Focus Divination
-Insightful Divination (Complete Mage: Gain spell level + 1 bonus to initiative for 24 hrs)
-Blooded or Thug (both from Players Guide to Faerun)
-Danger Sense (Complete Adventurer: reroll Initiative 1/day)

Items:
-Contingent Spell: If I am subject to a targetted attack while flat-footed, trigger Wings of Cover (2 SL x 3 CL x 100 gp = 600 gp).
-Custom Item of Command Word: Dimension Step at will (SL 3 x CL 6 x 1,800 gp = 32,400 gp)
-Custom Item of Constant Nerve Skitter (SL 1 x CL 1 x 2,000 gp x 4 (duration in rounds) = 8,000 gp)
-Potion of Sign [Spell Commpendium] (SL 1 x CL 1 x 25 gp = 25 gp)
-Potion of Cat's Grace (SL 2 x CL 3 x 25 gp = 150 gp)

Initiative:
+4 (14 base dex + 4 Cat's Grace)
+4 (Improved Initiative)
+5 (Nerve Skitter)
+4 (Sign)
+4 (Insightful Divination)
+4 (Marshal's Motivate Dexterity)
+2 (Blooded Or Thug)
= 27 (Balor has initiative of +11 for a max of +31. Can beat Balor's Initiative with a 4 and can Roll twice and take the better of the 2)


Arcanist:

Race: Any
Alignment: Any Evil
Class: Wizard or Sorcerer
Feats:
-Spell Penetration
-Greater Spell Penetration
-Arcane Mastery

Items:
-Contingent Spell: If I am subject to a targetted attack while flat-footed, trigger Wings of Cover (2 SL x 3 CL x 100 gp = 600 gp).
-Contingent Spell: When I say <something>, cast Dimension Step (SL 3 x CL 6 x 100 gp = 1,800 gp)
-Riverine Book: To hold Explosive Runes. Riverine (Stormwrack) is a special material rather than an enchanted item, so it shouldn't count against the contest limits. We use Riverine as it is indestructable, so the Balor can't sunder it.
-Handy Haversack: To hold the Book, so that the Balor doesn't dispel it with his area Greater Dispel. Normally 2,000 gp, but since the CL is 9, now costs x20 = 40,000 gp.

Spells:
-Must be able to cast Explosive Runes (Either as Spell Known, or from custom Runestave 4 x 4 x 400 gp = 6,400 gp)
-True Casting: +10 to CL for penetrating SR on next spell cast (Can be obtained from either own spell slots or through eternal wand)
-Adept Spirit: +1 to CL for 1 minute. (Can be obtained from either own spell slots or through eternal wand)

Setup:
-Trigger Adept Spirit (+1 CL)
-Cast True Casting (+10 CL to overcome SR)
-Cast Explosive Runes in book. Effective caster level is: 6 base + 1 (adept spirit) = 7. Against SR, add +10 from true casting and +4 from spell penetration for a total of 21. Arcane Mastery lets him take 10 on caster level checks so that he can automatically overcome the Balor's SR 28.
-When he wants to set off the bomb, he (or the Beguiler) can do so by casting dispel magic on the book. Even without autofail shenanigans, they can intentionally lower the dispel CL to 5, and then take 10 on the dispel roll for a total of 15. Because the Explosive Runes are cast at CL 7 (Dispel DC of 18), they will automatically fail to be dispelled and explode.
-The Book of Explosive Runes is stored in the Hand Haversack. As it is held in an extradimensional space, the Balor's Area Dispel cannot reach it. As the Handy Haversack is a magic item, it is also not subject to Area Dispels.


Combat Plan
Before the Fight:

Buff all members with the following spells at the following CLs. We intentionally lower some of the CLs so that when hit with Area Greater Dispel Magic, the less important "buffer" spells which were given higher CLs are checked first. As NONE of these spells are above CL6/SL3, you should alternatively be able to purchase them quite cheaply through scrolls/wands/potions, letting you access spells from classes which are not in your party.

CL 6 (Buffer Spells)
-Mage Armor [Force] (Benefits from Reserve Feats if any)
-Endure Elements
-Healing Rest (Druid 1, 24 hrs CAdv 151)
-Anticipate Teleport (Important! Sorc/Wiz 3, 24 hrs, SpC)
-etc (any hours/level or 24 hours spell will do)

CL 5 (Important Spells)
-Protection from Energy [Fire]: To protect against Firestorm. This can be cast from a wand
-Mass Energy Resistance [Fire]: Backup protection against Firestorm.
-Fly: To be able to maneuver up to the Balor. This can be cast from a wand.

Others
-While not strictly necessary, the Party can agree before hand to take certain actions when one of them shouts some key phrase (E.g. Activating Plan 2B). This lets them communicate their actions while keeping the Balor in the blind about what they are planning to do.
-The entire party should be disguised as holy warriors, to encourage the Balor to waste actions casting Blasphemy on them.
-Entire Party should drink their listed potions. The Beguiler and Healbot should cast any level 3 Divination spell to gain +4 Insight to Initiative from Insightful Divination.

Luring the Balor
In order to lure the Balor to our Infinite Featureless Plain, we first need to let him know where and when to meet us. Sending (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sending) is too high level, so we instead use Animal Messanger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalmessenger.htm). Presumably, we know where the Balor's sanctum normally is, so telling the Messenger where to find the Balor wouldn't be a problem.

"We know way out, with Bag of Holding and Portable Hole. Items not with us. Meet us this sunday at noon to talk."

We send this out on Monday, so that even if the Balor happens to go out for a few days, he will still be able to see the message and respond on Sunday. Of course, if we want to be sure he gets the message, we can spam Animal Messenger, several times per day, and on all the days leading up to Sunday. Since this is a written note, there should be no bluff check involved. We also tell the Balor that the items are not with us, so he doesn't get it in his head to kill us first and then try and loot the stuff from our corpses.


Engaging the Balor

Surprise Round
It is now Sunday. The Party is waiting in the middle of an infinitely large featureless plain. Who gets the Surprise round will depend on how the Balor tries to get in.

Fly/Walk In: The most straighforward thing to do, if the Balor is coming in to talk. Of course the Balor will be aware of where the Party is standing, and will immediately defend himself if they try to take any hostile actions, so there will be no surprise round.

Greater Teleport (within 30 ft of party): This will trigger Anticipate Teleport, and the Balor will be delayed for 1 full round. Party can act as normal/ready actions against the Balor, thereby *effectively* gaining the Surprise Round.

Greater Teleport (outside 30 ft of party): This is outside the range of Anticipate Teleport, so he will not be delayed. In all likelihood, the Balor gains the Surprise Round.

Surviving the Surprise Round
The Balor can only take 1 standard action during his surprise round. If he uses any Area attack, we have defences against them as follows:
-Blasphemy: Entire Party is evil, so this will have no effect
-Greater Dispel Magic (Area): We have buffer spells that are at a higher CL and will be checked first. The Balor's CL is 20, vs Dispel DC of 17 for our buffer spells, so they will be automatically removed first before the important spells are checked.
-Firestorm: We have Protection from Energy [Fire] up and this will absorb the first 60 points of damage. Since Firestorm does 70 damage on average, the Party should have no problems surviving the remaining 10+ damage (which could then be further absorbed by Mass Energy Resistance [Fire]). Furthermore he can only do this once, so after Protection from Energy has been used up, they party shouldn't need it anymore.

If he uses any Targetted Attack, it will trigger the Wings of Cover Contingency Spell we have given all our party members (best 600 gp ever spent). Unlike Immediate Actions, which cannot be taken while flat-footed, Contingent Spells can trigger regardless of the state of the carrier- even if he is dead.

Action Denial: The Wings of Cover Shuffle
Once the Surprise Round is over, it goes down to Initiative. The Beguiler and the Healbot have both been optimized to win initiative, and it highly likely they will do so. Whatever Action they take doesn't really matter, so long as they retain their swift/immediate action. They could just shoot weak Arrows at the Balor, while shouting praises to Good Gods as befits their "Holy Warrior" disguise. The important thing is that they are no longer flat-footed and can take immediate actions outside their turn.

The Balor can take 2 actions in his round. He will always cast quickened Telekinesis, since he has nothing else to do with his swift action. At this point, the Healbot can immediately counter with Wings of Cover. Because his CL has been boosted to 9 (6 base + 2 Thesis + 1 Blades of Force), and he has the Dragonblood subtype, his WoC can protect additional allies (one per 3 caster levels, for a total of 3) effectively shielding the rest of the party. The Balor finds that Telekinesis cannot do anything against the total cover provided by WoC, and so he wastes his action.

Next the Balor could try any of his targetted SLAs (Targetted Dispel, Insanity, Dominate, Implosion etc) or charge with a melee attack. This time round, the Beguiler can intervene with HIS Wings of Cover, which again has been boosted to CL 9 and can cover the whole party, thus effectively wasting the Balor's action again. Alternatively, he may try to use an Area attack, and our defence against that has been outlined above.

Party's Turn:
The Balor has used up his actions which have had no effect on the party. At this point the Balor might be either nearby (if he moved in, or failed a charge). Or still remaining where he was at the start (~50 ft away). Our Beguiler and Healbot activate their custom items of Dimension Step. Either can teleport up to 2 willing allies a distance equal to their move speed (60 ft fly with the fly spell active), so between the 2 of them, they can move the entire party. Ideally, we want to be always 30+ ft from the Balor. This is so as to prevent him from making a full attack which can overwhelm Wings of Cover. He is therefore stuck with making at most 1 melee attack on a charge (or any other actions listed above). With this, the Meatshield, Healbot and Beguiler can keep spamming WoC and Dimension Step every turn, so long as their WoC spell slots hold out, essentially shutting down anything the Balor might try to do, and they have a thick layer of buffer spells that can absorb his area GDMs for several rounds.

As mentioned above, this entire setup requires only 2 party members (Beguiler and Healbot), leaving the Arcanist and Meat Shield free to kill the Balor however they want.


Explosive Runes Nuke:
So by now I should have shown how the party can survive the Balor, but how might they kill it and survive the Death Throes?

0. Rather than giving the Custom item of Dimension step to the Beguiler, we give it to the Meat Shield (who at present isn't doing anything useful). This is to free the Beguiler to use his standard action to cast Dispel Magic later on.

1. On their turns, the Meatshield and Healbot, rather than using Dimension Step to teleport the whole party, only teleport themselves and the Beguiler, leaving the Arcanist behind. They can cover 120 ft with 2 move actions, which should be enough to put them outside of the Balor's Death Throes, but still within range to fire off a Dispel Magic (medium range, 160 ft).

2. The Arcanist now proceeds to blow up the Balor:
-Move Action: Draw Book of Explosive Runes from Handy Haversack.
-Free Action: saying <something> (talking is a free action) which triggers his Contingent Dimension Steps, bringing him close to the Balor. If you don't think this should be a free action, the Arcanist does not have any use for his standard action so he can use that instead.

3. The Beguiler has not used his standard action yet. He casts dispel magic on the book of explosive runes. The Balor (and Arcanist) drop dead.


Surviving Death Throes In More Limited Space:
The above schema works because there is space to keep away from the Balor, while he blows up. In the event that the fight occurs in more space limited environs, we may instead opt to survive Death Throes by using Time Hop (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Hop).

A Psionic Tattoo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm) of Timehop (750 gp) will keep a party member safe and sound outside of the timestream for a few rounds, during which the rest of the party can blow up the Balor (and die violently in the process). But as long as 1 party member survives, we win!


From Minimum to Dedication

Note that the scheme described above is the "Bare Minimum" required for the plan to work. Further tweaking can improve the Party's chance of success against the Balor, but at the cost of decreasing their overall performance against other monsters (keeping in mind that the task is supposed to be done by a *Real* party).

Although I did not do so, note that the Arcanist could also grab Wings of Cover and Optimize Initiative. In which case as long as 2 of the 3 WoC casters win initiative, they can cast it twice to block the Balor's first attacks. In fact the Meat Shield could also be a caster (E.g. Wild shaping Druid) grab WoC/optimize initiative, then as long as any 2 of the 4 party members win intiative, they can block off the balor. (Although if all 4 party members win initiative, they can just set off the Explosive Runes Nuke without waiting for the Balor to go first).

The races of the party members are not specified here. But if forced to fight an actual match, there are strong advantages to having them all be Undead (probably Necropolitan) most notably immunity to Mind Affecting from Power Word Stun, Insanity and Dominate.

While only the Arcanist carries the bomb in the scheme above, it is quite possible to purchase 4 seperate handy haversacks for each Party Member. That way, should one fall, the remaining 3 can still execute the Teleport Away-Draw Rune Book-Dispel combo to blow up the Balor. In fact, if you gave them all Craft Contingent spells of Dimension Step (so that the Dispeller can teleport away as a free action) you just need 2 people left to execute the combo. (In which case you can just pull the entire thing off provided that any 2 win initiative and pull it all off before the Balor even acts.)

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-21, 09:14 PM
To JeminiZero

Very well thought out, I attempted low level spell use however mostly just ended with heavily metamagiked low level spells. You however did a very great job, awesome idea with the Explosive Runes, I never realized that you could area dispel the book and choose to fail the checks so you could activate them all at once.

Malakar
2010-07-21, 09:17 PM
Jemini, Great Flaw in your plan: Cannot cast immediate actions when you are flat footed.

As far as I can tell your Init is not impressive, the Balor will usually win Init, and then proceed to kill someone.

Also, if he AoE dispels, the book of nukes is actually higher CL than anything else, and so by any interpretation of it, it gets dispelled first.

Resulting in teh boom boom.

Another_Poet
2010-07-21, 09:21 PM
Lans & Eronai, your entries can still count since you started before the closing. Lans, please post yours!

Eronai - please post yours just because I want to see a Pokemon entry!!

Gaurd Juris and anyone else - I will do the final update to the submissions list tomorrow and your entries should appear on the list then.

You guys rock.... there are some fun entries here.

Sorry to those who didn't like my rulings on how to apply E6. I didn't want to totally disallow items with higher level spells because those spells are available, in a way, in E6. But normal pricing and availability with 20th level gold would make the contest moot. So I had to balance it out as best as I could.

ap

JeminiZero
2010-07-21, 09:26 PM
As far as I can tell your Init is not impressive, the Balor will usually win Init, and then proceed to kill someone.


I'll figure that bit out later. The party so far is a massive blank slate with just a few feats and items, shouldn't be hard to amp up init.


Also, if he AoE dispels, the book of nukes is actually higher CL than anything else, and so by any interpretation of it, it gets dispelled first.

Resulting in teh boom boom.


Re-read it all, the book is stored in a Handy Haversack, and only taken out just before the nuke trigger. Since it is in an extradimensional space, it is not subject to area dispel.

JeminiZero
2010-07-22, 12:15 AM
Alright, I've added Initiative boosters and all. Take a look through it and let me know if anything else is needed.

jseah
2010-07-22, 01:47 AM
Is there any way to get a Gate to summon my target? Even through a one-use ritual?
I saw this and maybe this is a E6 mechanic of some sort?

The problem is that 4th+ level spells take 20 wizards and 3 days to cast so you can't activate them as a scroll.

Or can I buy a Candle of Invocation? I'm using it the "intended" way after all. XD

If Gate is completely banned, I'll like to withdraw my suggestion.

The other three guys won't be completely useless. Most like, two of them will buff the summoner's Cha-Check through the roof and use belt of battle to debuff the Balor's cha-check. The last guy is just a DPS guy to do the actual killing.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-22, 02:45 AM
My post was updated, might still need a few tweaks here and there if a challenge is issued, but I think you get the idea of the build well enough now.

lord_khaine
2010-07-22, 04:07 AM
I must say im impressed at how many different ways people found to slay a balor with such lowlevel people, and under all these restrictions.

Ingus
2010-07-22, 04:31 AM
I must say im impressed at how many different ways people found to slay a balor with such lowlevel people, and under all these restrictions.

The Balor is a Max-minned monster. Having a ridiculously poor contact armor class and not being immune to mind effecting spells are two major weakness. Come on, any sensible PC from 15th level is mind-blanked. :smallsigh:

true_shinken
2010-07-22, 08:42 AM
I must say im impressed at how many different ways people found to slay a balor with such lowlevel people, and under all these restrictions.

Except those tricks rely on magical items you normally can't get on e6.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 08:46 AM
Except those tricks rely on magical items you normally can't get on e6.

Not all of them.

Mine used no items the party couldn't make for itself. It relies on first and second level wands, primarily. I didn't even touch most of the money.

Basically, if you can go first/are immune to everything he can toss out, and have enough damage to down him, you're golden. Given 35 feats per character, dealing a reliable 280 damage in a round isn't that ridiculous.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-22, 08:52 AM
Not all of them.

Mine used no items the party couldn't make for itself. It relies on first and second level wands, primarily. I didn't even touch most of the money.

Basically, if you can go first/are immune to everything he can toss out, and have enough damage to down him, you're golden. Given 35 feats per character, dealing a reliable 280 damage in a round isn't that ridiculous.

Ditto.

I am confident in my group as well, though if challenged I would need to spend a lot more time on the characters!

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 08:54 AM
Yeah, I basically optimized to the point that I was guaranteed to win even if the balor got a surprise round, and used it to summon another balor.

Everything after that was pretty much pointless. If I was going to actually use this party in a challenge, there would be significantly more optimization. In gear especially.

monkey3
2010-07-22, 11:02 AM
I did not see my submission (made before the contest close) in the "SUBMISSIONS SO FAR:" section. I assume you are busy reading everything you already have.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-22, 12:27 PM
@Monkey


I will do the final update to the submissions list tomorrow and your entries should appear on the list then.

You guys rock.... there are some fun entries here.



this is at least 10 characters

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 12:39 PM
Any ties should be handled by double elimination deathmatches.

Ingus
2010-07-22, 06:13 PM
Any ties should be handled by double elimination deathmatches.

As it is stated, it seems a deathmatch between playgrounder. In that case, between me and you, you win.
What I can say? I'm chivalrious and won't never ever hit a lady. Some would say I'm a coward by nature, but don't listen to them :smalltongue:

Seriously, it seems a very good idea: with a tie, a deathmatch would make it shine those not antiBalor only. But I guess there is a winner already (sadly, I guess it is not me :smallbiggrin:)

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 06:16 PM
Not a lady Im afraid, just happen to like the avatar. =)

ex cathedra
2010-07-22, 07:20 PM
Not a lady Im afraid, just happen to like the avatar. =)


Note: This is a lie.

Whatever you say.

I didn't go into great depth about my solution, since the remaining effort is just scouring MiC, SpC, and a few other sources for modifier boosts, which are quite easy to come by. I was just trying to submit a feasible solution quickly.

Superglucose
2010-07-22, 07:39 PM
Are we going to get to watch an actual fight?

arguskos
2010-07-22, 07:45 PM
Are we going to get to watch an actual fight?
As you wish, sire!

*kicks supes in the shins, runs away*

No but really, I've been watching this one with great interest. I liked Swordguy's entry personally, since it made me giggle. :smallbiggrin: Would have entered, but really, I had other stuff to do, and still do.

Malakar
2010-07-22, 08:44 PM
Are we going to get to watch an actual fight?

I'm waiting for an submission entry that doesn't say "Pending" Sure some of them might be completed parties, but I'm not searching the thread for legal e6 parties that are also good enough to actually run if I can just mooch off of the actual challenge results.

Superglucose
2010-07-22, 09:35 PM
As you wish, sire!

*kicks supes in the shins, runs away*
OW! Jeez... :smallmad:



No but really, I've been watching this one with great interest. I liked Swordguy's entry personally, since it made me giggle. :smallbiggrin: Would have entered, but really, I had other stuff to do, and still do.
I just was hoping to see these epic tricks work, you know?

arguskos
2010-07-22, 09:41 PM
OW! Jeez... :smallmad:
You asked for a fight. :smalltongue: Take it in good faith.


I just was hoping to see these epic tricks work, you know?
Eh, me too, but somehow, I think this is much more theory and much less actual combats, no matter what's been said. This isn't the first challenge like this I've seen, and they rarely work out into actual fights to test the theories. Hopefully, this one is different, but eh, don't hold your breath.

Superglucose
2010-07-22, 09:43 PM
Hey, the 20 fighter/13 wizard broke into fights.

As did the ECL 20 "Against the Dragon." Which is why it was funny when someone asked if it was possible for noncasters to take on a dragon. We had Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger and we were having a rough time of it.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-22, 09:57 PM
After this thread finishes, somebody should start another CR20 Monster vs. e6 party thread.

Ingus
2010-07-23, 08:20 AM
Not a lady Im afraid, just happen to like the avatar. =)

(If anyone's in doubt, what follows is a joke)

What do you mean by that? That I'm a coward, not wanting to brawl? Seriously? I would like to accept the deathmatch just right now.
...except that I've other business to attend.
Unless... [insert shaking, menacing punch here] [and scarede eyes too]

taltamir
2010-07-23, 08:52 AM
has anyone come up with a way to resist blasphemy other then playing an evil party?

Since this all started with the following statement:

any attempt to E6 will have to be a joke, because e6 characters can't actually do anything against Balors.
what is an evil party doing throwing their life against a balor?
run, serve it, etc... its the good guys who should be fighting demons.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-23, 09:21 AM
My party is all good. It uses an exalted good monk as the point man, and the coup de gras is a melee attack. I believe I am the only entry that can say any of that!

However, there's no reason evil people shouldn't fight demons. They could be working with devils, for example.

taltamir
2010-07-23, 09:28 AM
My party is all good. It uses an exalted good monk as the point man, and the coup de gras is a melee attack. I believe I am the only entry that can say any of that!

Impressive, how does it avoid being auto killed by blasphemy?

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-23, 09:32 AM
My artificer makes a scroll of Lesser Planar Ally, and before the fight we use it to summon a Nightmare. The Nightmare casts Etherealness on us, which moves us to the Astral Plane, making us imune to 90% of the Balor's attacks including Blasphemy. Once we drop back onto the prime, we rely on stunning fist to ensure the balor never gets another action.

monkey3
2010-07-23, 09:55 AM
has anyone come up with a way to resist blasphemy other then playing an evil party?


My team can't be hit by it since they stay underground and are not affected by it. In fact they can't be seen or detected by anyone, and can stay/attack from underground till the end of time.

I made use of no powerful items or spells/powers above 2nd level. I use mostly 2nd level powers and a movement move (burrowing). Oh, I also used a 3rd level spell once (Animate Dead).

Tyndmyr
2010-07-23, 09:56 AM
has anyone come up with a way to resist blasphemy other then playing an evil party?

Well, theres the spellstealing daggers anyhow. Silence also works.

You could always optimize saves(surprisingly easy, since E6 explicitly says this is ok), and tack on the luck feat that turns natural 1s into natural 20s. I put that feat on my characters anyway, just because it's awesome. Note that this just affects the part that allows a saving throw, so you need additional immunities for the other effects.

My team can down the balor in a round from extreme range, so the immunities are just for giggles.

taltamir
2010-07-23, 09:57 AM
My artificer makes a scroll of Lesser Planar Ally

4th level spell scrolls don't exist in E6.


Well, theres the spellstealing daggers anyhow. Silence also works.

You could always optimize saves(surprisingly easy, since E6 explicitly says this is ok), and tack on the luck feat that turns natural 1s into natural 20s. I put that feat on my characters anyway, just because it's awesome. Note that this just affects the part that allows a saving throw, so you need additional immunities for the other effects.

the balor's blasphemy auto kills any non evil with an ECL of 10 or less within range without a save or SR check.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm
he is casting it as CL20.

I don't know what spell stealing daggers are, but do they work on SLA? I am pretty sure silence does not hamper SLA.


My team can down the balor in a round from extreme range, so the immunities are just for giggles.
that will work... as long as you are more then 40 feet away from him you are out of the range of blasphemy.

senrath
2010-07-23, 11:37 AM
4th level spell scrolls don't exist in E6.


Artificers create magic items as though they are 2 levels higher than they really are. Meaning that a 6th level Artificer is creating items that normally requires an 8th level caster. Ie, 4th level spell scrolls. They normally don't exist only because you can't get a wizard/druid/cleric/whatever to a high enough level to make them, but as far as I know there's no rule against getting an artificer to do it for you.

Ingus
2010-07-23, 11:48 AM
My way to not get autokilled by blasphemy was act first.
My build was based on questionable use of magic item homebrew rule, but one could even think to go with 4 ToB characters and Belt of Battle and Withe Raven Tactics out the Balor before he can act.

By the way, Blasphemy was the main problem prevented me to Charm him or otherwise brainwash him

Douglas
2010-07-23, 12:26 PM
4th level spell scrolls don't exist in E6.
They do if they're made by artificers, who can make them at level 5, and the OP has specifically stated that such things are allowed for this challenge if made by a party member rather than an NPC.

Hurlbut
2010-07-23, 12:48 PM
4th level spell scrolls don't exist in E6.Except when you can create it on your own.

taltamir
2010-07-23, 02:48 PM
Artificers create magic items as though they are 2 levels higher than they really are. Meaning that a 6th level Artificer is creating items that normally requires an 8th level caster. Ie, 4th level spell scrolls. They normally don't exist only because you can't get a wizard/druid/cleric/whatever to a high enough level to make them, but as far as I know there's no rule against getting an artificer to do it for you.

thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware of that particularity.

dextercorvia
2010-07-23, 04:55 PM
I am pretty sure silence does not hamper SLA.

Silence doesn't stop the Balor from using it, but it does stop the PC's from hearing it. (I've seen it argued that hearing isn't required for Balor to kill you, but that is silly.)

Ernir
2010-07-23, 06:33 PM
I see a rules conflict in Silence vs. Blasphemy.

Silence:
This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.
Blasphemy (which carries the [Sonic] descriptor)
This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy.

So... yeah. :smallconfused:

It's a really poorly defined case, I think. Silence says it provides "a defense" against sonic attacks, but does not explicitly call out the [Sonic] descriptor, nor does it say what this "defense" is supposed to be. Blasphemy says the target does not need to hear the spell, but does not say whether it overrides magical Silence.
:smallsigh:

Another_Poet
2010-07-24, 01:24 AM
Hi all. I just want to let you know I have not forgotten our brave challengers! Work got super busy. I hope to review the contestants before the weekend is over (though a date on Sunday may bump my giantitp time, in which case I will do it Mon at work :smalltongue: ).

taltamir
2010-07-24, 10:04 AM
Silence doesn't stop the Balor from using it, but it does stop the PC's from hearing it. (I've seen it argued that hearing isn't required for Balor to kill you, but that is silly.)

only because you assume it is the hearing of the blasphemy that does the damage...
you don't need to hear the wizard chanting to feel the fireball he casts at you... if blasphemy isn't an auditory attack but merely speaking a word of evil con conjure negative energy (in a specific form) then it would work just fine.


I see a rules conflict in Silence vs. Blasphemy.

there is no conflict, the blasphemy description helps confirm that it is NOT a language based attack. Thus, blasphemy is more akin to "circle of death"

it is actually an extremely well defined case, blasphemy explicitly states that not hearing it (via silence) does not stop it, silence explicitly states that it provides defense against things which have nothing to do with blasphemy.

true_shinken
2010-07-24, 10:38 AM
My way to not get autokilled by blasphemy was act first.
My build was based on questionable use of magic item homebrew rule, but one could even think to go with 4 ToB characters and Belt of Battle and Withe Raven Tactics out the Balor before he can act.

By the way, Blasphemy was the main problem prevented me to Charm him or otherwise brainwash him

I think a balor could most probably get a surprise round against such a party (with his good senses and teleport) and there is very little you can do to fight that... you are not high level enough to use Celerity, for starters, though characters with uncanny dodge coult potentially use Wings of Cover, I belive.

Douglas
2010-07-24, 10:40 AM
though characters with uncanny dodge coult potentially use Wings of Cover, I belive.
Nope. Uncanny Dodge is quite specific about what it gets you - dex to AC when flat-footed. It does not actually make you not flat-footed, so the other drawbacks of that status, including the inability to use immediate actions, remain.

JeminiZero
2010-07-24, 10:42 AM
it is actually an extremely well defined case, blasphemy explicitly states that not hearing it (via silence) does not stop it, silence explicitly states that it provides defense against things which have nothing to do with blasphemy.

Actually, I agree with Ernir's assessment. Silence can be ruled to protect against Blasphemy, as it has the [sonic] descriptor, which Silence explicitly says it protects against.

Nowhere in Silence does it say this protection is due to the fact that it prevents the target from hearing the attack (while that is one of the effects of the spell, it is NOT explicitly stated to be the "cause" of protection). And this is likely due to the fact that many sonic attacks besides Blasphemy (like Orb of Sound), work even against creatures that are deaf.

dextercorvia
2010-07-24, 11:36 AM
Context is King.


Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

The phrase This effect is sandwiched by two sentences referring to the Banishment effect. I think it is clear that the rest of the spell works according to the [Sonic] descriptor.

taltamir
2010-07-24, 12:07 PM
Actually, I agree with Ernir's assessment. Silence can be ruled to protect against Blasphemy, as it has the [sonic] descriptor, which Silence explicitly says it protects against.

ah, i missed that part.


Context is King.

The phrase This effect is sandwiched by two sentences referring to the Banishment effect. I think it is clear that the rest of the spell works according to the [Sonic] descriptor.

very good observation. I guess I was wrong then.
Thus I change my mind... having reread it with careful attention to those points, I think I would say that by RAW silence completely negates all aspects of blasphemy except the banishment.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-26, 11:41 AM
I think this thread needs a trip back to the front page.

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 12:00 PM
I think this is much more theory and much less actual combats, no matter what's been said. This isn't the first challenge like this I've seen, and they rarely work out into actual fights to test the theories. Hopefully, this one is different, but eh, don't hold your breath.

Malakar has already offered to run a fight against the winner. He's retracted that to Swordguy and any entries that use shameless loop exploits. For any other entry that may win I assume he will live up to his word.



COMPLETE LIST OF SUBMISSIONS
Note: If your submission is NOT on this list, or if it looks like I did not address an edit or update to your submission, LET ME KNOW before noon CST on Tuesday 7/27!

If I asked questions about your entry, LET ME KNOW before noon CST on Tuesday 7/27!

After that the winner will be announced and it will be too late to point out something I forgot :)

Starbuck II's Spellward Sniper + 3 Chumps
awaiting team details

Lhurgyof's Humorously Named Four
DEAD. Give details on equipment and tactics if this is a serious submission.

Dextercorvia's "Poor Man's Lucubration 9ths" plus "Krau Sigil Cleric/Wiz" plus two chumps
Status: Pun-Pun's Ladder Good theoretical builds but definitely hits the ladder

aje8's Wraithstrike Nova plus 3 chumps
Status: Pending; convince me you can survive several rounds and repeat your nova, plus survive the death throes.

Awa's Chump with Astral Bomb Skellies, plus three more chumps
Points for Cleverness But the only member of your party still in combat with the Balor is a sad skeleton on the Astral Plane.

Lhurgyof's Diplomancer plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Show me how high you can make your Diplomacy score and how this will allow you to decisively defeat the Balor.

Crazedloon's "Krau Sigil 9ths" plus four chumps
Ninja'd; and Ladder'd Again, brilliant theoretical build, but it's on Pun-Pun's ladder

Swordguy's Fight Smarter Not Harder (four chumps with a sphere of Gygax)
Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan.

Aethernox's Four Go In, Three Come Out
Status: Pending Looks like a complete plan

Awa's Revised Chumps with Skellies and Dust of Sneezing
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Cespenar's Contract Killers (four Rog5/Assassin1's)
Status: Pending; You're assuming you can get your Hide and Move Silently to +58. Show me the feats & gear. You also assume you can boost your Fort save DC high enough that he will reliably (i..e more than half the time) fail with his +22 modifier. Show me the feats & gear.

jseah's Abramelin and Three Chumps
DEAD. You cannot get a scroll of a 4th level or higher spell, as per the original post. Feel free to tweak and resubmit.
Answer to jseah's question: the spell Gate is not itself banned, but scrolls of it are. If you can find a way to get a 9th level spell using the contest rules without resorting to Pun-Pun's Ladder, then you are golden. Hint: other contestants have found ways of getting 9th level spells.

Biffoniacus_Furious' "That's Not Tinkerbell!" plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Tyndmyr's If You Like It Then You Shoulda Put an Orb on It
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

Gaurd_Juris' The Saintly Order of Who Took My Vorpal Sword?
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

Adumbration's Judge, Jury, and Executioner Plus One
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Ingus' Bye-Bye Balor
Status: DEAD; Brilliant use of items but your plan ends with banishing the Balor which was specified earlier as not counting as a victory.[/I]

The Shadowmind's Skeleton Crew
Status: DEAD; Operating war machines requires a trained-only Profession (Siege Engineer) check as per the DMG, which default MM skeletons cannot make. You didn't offer a party to show how your necromancer could correct this. Basically 4 chumps walk proudly up to the Balor with 10,000 skeletons and 2500 siege weapons; two rounds later the Balor is on his cell phone asking his demon friends if they have any use for a skeleton army lead by 4 zombies with a look of shock and surprise frozen on their faces.

monkey3's I-Team and the Van
Status: Pending; How does your Necron have Animate Dead to get the bullette? Remember scrolls are not available.

Lhurgyof's "It Worked for Arneson"
Status: DEAD; I love this submission but sadly I think the Balor would have them all dead before realising how cool the game is. So really the Balor is the one who misses out, but still.

Eronai_Jantig's Fistful of Rays
Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan

JeminiZero's "Guardian of Wings"
Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

Malakar
2010-07-26, 12:16 PM
If you could, please separate out when you do so all "victorious" parties not just the best one, so that I may offer my challenge against all of them.

To parties who may be facing a Balor:

Things I will need from you:
1) Actual Sheets. If you don't feel like finding X more feats, just say Toughness X. If you don't feel like spending more gold, just write "A castle worth X gold."
2) Um...

Things you will need to accept from me:
1) The purpose of the actual Balor challenge is to test your idea against a real Balor that you might run into in a real game, so some of your assumptions will not be in play. Here is what you need to know now:

a) It will be an identical challenge at start (obviously, Balor may react differently) for all parties, please don't read other peoples until you have done your own.
b) You will be inside a dungeon, facing a Balor somewhere in that Dungeon.
c) You will have knowledge that you are facing a Balor. Since in reality, you would not have the ability in e6 to get your skill checks high enough to actually know everything about a Balor that you already knew when you planned your builds... That's just going to be a handicap in your favor.
d) You will have to assault the Balor yourself, because he doesn't feel like coming to you.
e) The Balor is trapped in this Dungeon, because he was Plane Shifted onto a Dungeon Plane. Any method of sending him to another Plane is a failure, not success. The Balor would love to be sent to the Abyss, or to the Astral. That would be great for him.
f) You want to kill the Balor for some reason, that's up to you.

Hurlbut
2010-07-26, 12:35 PM
c) You will have knowledge that you are facing a Balor. Since in reality, you would not have the ability in e6 to get your skill checks high enough to actually know everything about a Balor that you already knew when you planned your builds... That's just going to be a handicap in your favor.Guess what? Go to the greatest library in the lands, get the librarians aid you, Voila! You get bonuses from having a library and the librarians doing aid another actions in research.

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 12:40 PM
If you could, please separate out when you do so all "victorious" parties not just the best one, so that I may offer my challenge against all of them.

I suspect there will be four categories:

1) Winners (one best one gets the tantalizing prize package, a few runners up get the 200 words and digital image.)

2) Builds who could win, but are on Pun Pun's Ladder (DQ'd)

3) Builds who could not succeed or not enough info was given

4) Joke entries

So I imagine you will be offering the challenge to everyone in group (1) and no one from the other groups.


a) It will be an identical challenge at start (obviously, Balor may react differently) for all parties, please don't read other peoples until you have done your own.

This seems a little over the top, a PbP fight can take weeks. This rule will probably mean all the other contestants lose interest by the time their turn comes up after the first contestant.


d) You will have to assault the Balor yourself, because he doesn't feel like coming to you.

If you're building a dungeon and letting them roam it looking for the Balor then they should be able to find ways to lure him to a particular room or set a trap. You've built in WLD style backstory that he is trapped there; a good strategy using that background is to bluff him that they have a way out.

If neither the backstory, nor the rooms of the dungeon, nor the size of the dungeon can come into play and no luring or tricking is possible - then you may as well ditch the dungeon and make it an arena combat.

Just my thoughts - I don't want to step on the toes of your contest or confuse entrants, but I think it bears consideration.

ap

jseah
2010-07-26, 01:29 PM
^Another_Poet:
If it's an arena combat, trap based attempts become impossible. Of course, there's a certain element of cheese in those so...

Also, can't I just buy a candle of invocation? I'll eat the 20x cost, even after you add in the 5000xp cost the writers seemed to have forgotten about. (either by paying 25k gp or by losing 1 feat)
Even with the insane pun-pun esque potential of the candle, I'll just be summoning my target balor with it. IE. almost RAI
(I'm trapping and killing the summon instead of getting an ally, so not quite As Intended)

The cleric who's in charge of the candle (or the as-yet-unspecified gate process) will be oriented to buffing cha checks. There also needs to be one artificer to get a scroll of Dimensional Anchor (since it's a 4th level spell).

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 02:06 PM
That's all legal if you can afford the cost. Can you update your post and let us know when it's done? For example which character is being replaced with the artificer, what the cleric build is to get those Cha checks, the strategy after killing the summon, etc.

ap

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-26, 02:33 PM
Were there any otter questions for my build? Did you want me to fully complete the opti-fu on the cleric, Druid and bard, or did you feel the detail was sufficient to get an idea if my party could win.

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 02:39 PM
It seems like sufficient detail, Eronai. Anyone with "looks like a complete plan" on the submission list has satisfied my list of questions about their team.

ap

dextercorvia
2010-07-26, 02:53 PM
The only way I know of to get Nines in E6 without climbing Pun Pun's Ladder, is the Naenhoon exploit. An Illumian cleric6 (Or Wiz5/Cleric1) can use 6 turning attempts to heighten a spell to 9th level. Add Earth Spell for 10th. Now take Extra Slot. At least as I read it, it is to the landing. There is no recursion involved, anyway. Now I expect it is too theoretic for Malakar's liking, in that it has no more place in an E6 campaign than a Balor.

I'm still working on my Beatstick, but for now, change my team to the following

BSF: (To follow)
Skillmonkey: Illumian Beguiler4/CloisteredCleric1/Mindbender1
Healbot: Illumian CloisteredCleric6
Batman: Illumian CloisteredCleric1/Wizard5

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 03:07 PM
The only way I know of to get Nines in E6 without climbing Pun Pun's Ladder, is the Naenhoon exploit. An Illumian cleric6 (Or Wiz5/Cleric1) can use 6 turning attempts to heighten a spell to 9th level. Add Earth Spell for 10th. Now take Extra Slot. At least as I read it, it is to the landing. There is no recursion involved, anyway. Now I expect it is too theoretic for Malakar's liking, in that it has no more place in an E6 campaign than a Balor.

Yep that is at the landing but not up the ladder. Impressive. I agree it is against the spirit of E6 and Malakar would probably not send his balor against it, because poory baby balor is scawed of the big bad 9th level spells!


I'm still working on my Beatstick, but for change my team to the following

BSF: (To follow)
Skillmonkey: Illumian Beguiler4/CloisteredCleric1/Mindbender1
Healbot: Illumian CloisteredCleric6
Batman: Illumian CloisteredCleric1/Wizard5

Righty right.

Swordguy
2010-07-26, 05:05 PM
It seems like sufficient detail, Eronai. Anyone with "looks like a complete plan" on the submission list has satisfied my list of questions about their team.

ap


Hey, AP, were you going to update my entry up to "looks complete", since I've dealt with the death throes question, or is there something else I need to do?




edit@swordguy: Point taken. Your tactic renders the death throes moot. I'll edit the main submission listing on the front page.

Malakar
2010-07-26, 05:53 PM
This seems a little over the top, a PbP fight can take weeks. This rule will probably mean all the other contestants lose interest by the time their turn comes up after the first contestant.

I am capable of running multiple challenges concurrently.


If you're building a dungeon and letting them roam it looking for the Balor then they should be able to find ways to lure him to a particular room or set a trap. You've built in WLD style backstory that he is trapped there; a good strategy using that background is to bluff him that they have a way out.

The Balor doesn't know specifically when you are coming, or anything he wouldn't know about who is coming from his natural abilities.

This is primarily to defeat the "I sneak up to adjacent to the Balor with my +3 Hide checks" line of thinking. And the "I have +11billion init, so I automatically win in an open plane within range" type of comments.

This is supposed to model an actual game situation. So sometimes you have to do something to a Balor that isn't standing within 5ft of you waiting to roll init. Like, maybe he's taking over the world and you have to assault him.

As for luring, sure you can try to lure him out or whatever. Absolutely. Tell him you have a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding. Whatever works. But the point is that you have to go find him and tell him, and then you are completely at his whim whether he feels like going to visit you.

@9th level spells thing.

No, not really. Because the Heighten is an instantaneous thing upon casting, you can't use those spells that are only modified on casting to meet the pre reqs for Extra Slot, so you can't actually get the Extra Slot 9th level.

dextercorvia
2010-07-26, 06:10 PM
The Team:

Big Stupid Fighter
TBA

Skillmonkey
Name: Sneaky McCaster
Race: Illumian
Classes: Beguiler4/CloisteredCleric1/Mindbender1

Stats Str10 Dex 14(20) Con 14(20) Int 19(25) Wis10 Cha 8(14)

Trait: Aggressive(SRD)
Domains: Tyranny(SpC), Domination(SpC)
Power Sigils NaenHoon(RoD)

Feats:

Bonus(Domination Domain):Spell Focus -- Enchantment
1:Able Learner(RoD)
3:Practiced Spellcaster(CA)
6:Mindsight(LoM)
E1:Heighten Spell(SRD)
E2:Earth Sense(RoS)
E3:Earth Spell(RoS)
E4:Extra Turning(SRD)
E5:Arcane Mastery(CA)
E6:Arcane Thesis[Dominate Monster](PHBII)
E7:Twin Spell(CA)
E8:Improved Initiative(SRD)
E9:Greater Spell Focus -- Enchantment(SRD)
E10:Corrupt Spell(CD)
E11:Spell Focus -- Evil(SRD)
E12:Greater Spell Focus -- Evil(SRD)
E13:Malign Spell Focus(BoVD)
E14:Shadow Weave Magic(PGF)
E15:Pernicious Magic(PGF)
E16:Spell Penetration(SRD)
E17:Greater Spell Penetration(SRD)
E18:Fey Heritage(CM)
E19:Fey Power(CM)
E20:Fiendish Heritage(CM)
E21:Fiendish Power(CM)
E22:Quick Reconnoiter
E23-E35:Extra Slot(CA)


Items:

{table=head]Item|Source|Price
Belt of Battle|MIC|12000
with Con +6|MIC|36000
+1 Eager Gauntlet of Warning|MIC|18000
Helm of Wounding Sight|MIC|6500
with Int +6|MIC|36000
Mask of Mastery|MIC|3500
Greater Rod of Metamagic -- Quicken|SRD|170000
Veil of Allure|MIC|14000
Boots of Dexterity +6|MIC|36000
Cloak of Charisma +6|SRD|36000
[/table]


Tactics:


Foresight means never being surprised.

Init +22 means the Balor always looses Initiative.

+4 Improved Init.
+5 Dex
+5 Warning Dagger (Insight)
+2 Eager Dagger
+2 Belt of Battle (Competence)
+2 Aggressive
+2 Two pieces of Armor of Watching Master


Sneaky McCaster casts Quickened Twin Corrupt Dominate Monster followed by Twin Corrupt Dominate Monster from ninth level slots with a save DC of 39,

Base 19
+1 Earth Spell
+7 Intelligence
+2 Veil of Allure
+1 Fey Power
+1 Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Gr. Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Shadow Weave Magic
+1 Fiendish Power
+1 Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Gr. Spell Focus -- Evil
+1 Malign Spell Focus
+1 Tyranny Domain
Quicken from Rod
Naenhoon for Twin


bypassing the Balor's SR by taking 10 for a result of 28.

10 Arcane Mastery
+6 Beguiler level + Practiced Spellcaster
+2 Arcane Thesis
+1 Fey Power
+1 Fiendish Power
+4 Pernicious Magic
+2 Spell Penetration
+2 Greater Spell Penetration



Arcane Caster
Sneaky's brother Arcane McCaster has a similar layout, trading Mindsight and some of the Extra Slots for Extra Spell, so he can accomplish the same basic tasks.

Heal Bot
Their brother Divine Mccaster can do the same thing, replacing Dominate Monster with Monstrous Thrall(SpC) which is permanent (read the text not the table), That is 12 SoL effects coming at the Balor before its initiative count. The Balor only succeeds on any of these on a natural 20. This leads us to the big reveal:


The BSF is

The Balor





@9th level spells thing.

No, not really. Because the Heighten is an instantaneous thing upon casting, you can't use those spells that are only modified on casting to meet the pre reqs for Extra Slot, so you can't actually get the Extra Slot 9th level.

Which Prereq?



EXTRA SLOT
You can cast an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster level 4th.
Benefit: You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment,
at any level up to one lower than the highest level of
spell you can currently cast.


So long has you haven't used up your naenhoon ability the day you take the feat, you are capable of casting a 10th level spell.

Malakar
2010-07-26, 06:23 PM
So long has you haven't used up your naenhoon ability the day you take the feat, you are capable of casting a 10th level spell.

No, you are capable of casting a 3rd level spell, which you are capable of Heightening to 10th level, if you expend a bunch of other abilities that have nothing to do with casting that 3rd level spell.

awa
2010-07-26, 06:30 PM
The initial plan was fine but this modification is slightly stronger 2 skeleton users make it harder to stop the skeletons
protection from energy on skeletons and pcs protect vrs fire
evil protects vrs blasphemy
protection from evil protects vrs dominate
every one disguised with full body concealing robes and good aligned holy symbols. this should make it harder for the balor to take pot shots at the useful people

if balors location is unknown spam celestial dogs with summon monster 3 wands send them to look for balor when found go after use skeleton bombs.
cleric has skeleton reapply dust every 5 rounds to insure the balor never has a chance to act (i though about readied actions but i couldn't trust 0 int creatures with that)

the elf wizard is the shooter in this version using his wand of true strike
to reliable hit the balor. Far shot can keep him out of range of the death throws if possible otherwise protection from energy.
Invisibility will keep him from detecting the party when farther then 120 feet away.
Commoners convinced dust will not hurt them vie bluff also planning to suicide



52,500 un spent

1000 bags of coughing and sneezing

44s oil protection from energy

Dwarf Cleric 6
Str 8 dex 8 con 20 int 10 wis 18 cha 6
20 skeletons
38 toughness
Wand summon monster 3

elf Wizard 6
str 8 dex 20 con6 int 18 cha 8
20 skeletons (wand animate dead)
long bow wounding cost x20
Wand true strike
35 toughness
Weapon focus bow , point blank shot, far shot
Wand protection from evil
Wand summon monster 3
Wand invisibility
Spell known haste

Rouge
Str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 10 wis 10 cha 20
Leadership 6 followers
1level 4 commoner
level 1 commoner
ability training ability advancement cha
36 toughness
Disguise 9 ranks
Umd 9 ranks
Bluff 9 ranks
Wand protection from evil

Fighter
43 toughness



ps this was a little bit rushed due to other time constraints and grammar was never my strong point so i apologies in advance

dextercorvia
2010-07-26, 06:31 PM
No, you are capable of casting a 3rd level spell, which you are capable of Heightening to 10th level, if you expend a bunch of other abilities that have nothing to do with casting that 3rd level spell.

I won't derail AP's thread with another comment about this unless he wishes me to defend it further for the build. However this is generally accepted optimization. Your argument can be made about Earth Spell, or Sanctum, or Improved Krau as well, and yet no one (not even you earlier) does. That is the sign that either you have made a brand new discovery, or your argument is weak. Naenhoon Heighten works if the rest of it does, and as I said before it is generally accepted to be cheesy, but sufficient.

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 06:42 PM
Hey, AP, were you going to update my entry up to "looks complete", since I've dealt with the death throes question, or is there something else I need to do?

Fixed.


As for luring, sure you can try to lure him out or whatever. Absolutely. Tell him you have a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding. Whatever works.

Cool, that should make for more interesting scenarios.

Douglas
2010-07-26, 06:45 PM
No, you are capable of casting a 3rd level spell, which you are capable of Heightening to 10th level, if you expend a bunch of other abilities that have nothing to do with casting that 3rd level spell.
Ah, but a spell Heightened to 10th level is, in every way, a 10th level spell. And, regardless of the spell slot's level, the spell itself is 10th level and you are capable of casting it - and Extra Spell doesn't say a thing about spell slots, only about the ability to cast spells. This is pretty cut and dried RAW. Very cheesy, broken, and not likely to be allowed in most games, but clear RAW.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-26, 06:47 PM
Diplomancer:
RANKS: 5+level (cap feat): +11
Charisma (18+2 cap feat +6 items): +8
Racial: +2
Skill Focus: +3
Negotiator: +2
Savvy Rogue (take 12): +12
Skill Shard, +10: +10
Circlet of Persuasion: +3
Aid another from a Sharn: +3
Synergies: +6

So we have a 60 diplomacy check at all times. Balor doesn't stand a chance when he would either help (or after a little more persuasion) give his life for said rogue. :smallamused:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

Fanatic is in the Epic Level Handbook.

EDIT: Can't dip into ranger if I want to take Savvy rogue.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-26, 07:00 PM
What Cap feat? Is there a feat that allows more ranks in a skill than normal? Because if so I'd like to know not just for this build, but for future play.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-26, 07:05 PM
What Cap feat? Is there a feat that allows more ranks in a skill than normal? Because if so I'd like to know not just for this build, but for future play.

Skill Beyond Your Years
Prerequisite: Level 6
Pick a skill. Your max ranks rise from Level+3 to Level +5.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-26, 07:11 PM
I really hate those damn e6 feats :P second time I've missed one. Greenbound summoning+Green ear here I come.

Malakar
2010-07-26, 07:14 PM
Ah, but a spell Heightened to 10th level is, in every way, a 10th level spell. And, regardless of the spell slot's level, the spell itself is 10th level and you are capable of casting it - and Extra Spell doesn't say a thing about spell slots, only about the ability to cast spells. This is pretty cut and dried RAW. Very cheesy, broken, and not likely to be allowed in most games, but clear RAW.

Yes, and so if he gains the feat the exact second he casts the spell, you might be able to argue that he can in fact use the fact that at that second he is capable of casting a level 10 spell to qualify for a 9th level slot.

On the other hand, if he is obtaining the feat at any other time than the very instant he is casting the spell, there is no question that he is not capable of casting a 10th level spell. He is capable of casting a 3rd level spell (or 5th if sanctum earth spell).

I'm not arguing that heighten doesn't increase the spell level. I'm arguing that the ability to cast a third level spell and then heighten it after casting is not the same as the ability to cast a 10th level spell.

Can an Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 with a spellcraft modifier of +NI cast spells of level NI/3? No, because the ability to cast a level 4 spell and then heighten it after it is cast at level 4 is not sufficient to be counted as able to cast a level 40 spell.


I won't derail AP's thread with another comment about this unless he wishes me to defend it further for the build. However this is generally accepted optimization. Your argument can be made about Earth Spell, or Sanctum, or Improved Krau as well, and yet no one (not even you earlier) does. That is the sign that either you have made a brand new discovery, or your argument is weak. Naenhoon Heighten works if the rest of it does, and as I said before it is generally accepted to be cheesy, but sufficient.

Alternatively, I may not have felt like arguing earlier, because it doesn't matter, and I just happen to have more free time right now.

But in fact, Sanctum and Earth spell don't just modify the spell as it is cast, the modify the prepared spell, so apply as well to feat qualifications. I don't know about Improved Krau, because I do not know the wording of that ability.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-26, 07:25 PM
Actually I think your completely backwords, a sanctum spell regardless of where it is prepared, is prepared as the normal spell, earning it's +0, only after it's cast can it be determined if (in this case) the spell is 10th level, or 8th level, the spell prepared would be considered 9th, because heighten actually does increase the level of the spell.

Douglas
2010-07-26, 07:33 PM
Yes, and so if he gains the feat the exact second he casts the spell, you might be able to argue that he can in fact use the fact that at that second he is capable of casting a level 10 spell to qualify for a 9th level slot.
That seems as silly to me as requiring that a (no cheese at all) level 3 wizard must be casting a level 2 spell at the exact moment he gains a feat in order to select Extra Spell for a level 1 slot.


On the other hand, if he is obtaining the feat at any other time than the very instant he is casting the spell, there is no question that he is not capable of casting a 10th level spell. He is capable of casting a 3rd level spell (or 5th if sanctum earth spell).
Taking into account all the abilities he personally has, is he at any given moment and assuming a fully rested state able to cast a spell that is 10th level? If so, then he is able to cast a 10th level spell.


I'm not arguing that heighten doesn't increase the spell level. I'm arguing that the ability to cast a third level spell and then heighten it after casting is not the same as the ability to cast a 10th level spell.

Can an Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 with a spellcraft modifier of +NI cast spells of level NI/3? No, because the ability to cast a level 4 spell and then heighten it after it is cast at level 4 is not sufficient to be counted as able to cast a level 40 spell.
An Incantatrix using Metamagic Effect would, indeed, be casting a 3rd (or whatever) level spell and then Heightening it after the fact. This would not qualify.

Someone with an Incantatrix ally using Cooperative Metamagic for him would also not qualify because it depends on an extra character helping him out.

Naenhoon, however, is applied during the casting, not after the fact, and from the character's own abilities.


Alternatively, I may not have felt like arguing earlier, because it doesn't matter, and I just happen to have more free time right now.

But in fact, Sanctum and Earth spell don't just modify the spell as it is cast, the modify the prepared spell, so apply as well to feat qualifications. I don't know about Improved Krau, because I do not know the wording of that ability.
It seems to me that your logic would also mean a Sorcerer with Sanctum Spell or Earth Spell would not count as being able to cast higher level spells unless he also took Arcane Preparation, because the potential adjustment from those feats would not be applied until the moment of casting since the Sorcerer is casting spontaneously. This strikes me as patently absurd.

Naenhoon (full text is on page 54 of Races of Destiny, btw) is applied during casting, just as any metamagics a Sorcerer normally uses are.

JeminiZero
2010-07-26, 07:53 PM
JeminiZero's "Guardian of Wings"
Status: Pending; As has been pointed out on these forums before you are not allowed to voluntarily fail a caster level check such as a dispel check (the only roll that is specified you may voluntarily fail by RAW is a saving throw) so how do you guarantee detonation of the runes package?

I think I already wrote instructions for that somewhere in the Arcanist Build section. Essentially, use Arcane Mastery to take 10 to dispel checks. While not permitted to autofail dispel, you can voluntarily lower the caster level to 5 (minimum for level 3 spells) and take 10 for a total of 15, which automatically fails against level 7 explosive runes (Dispel DC 18).

Tyndmyr
2010-07-26, 07:58 PM
Point buy for this? Im assuming 28, but want to be sure.

Busy statting up actual sheets for the competition, so those little details like skill ranks, spells known/prepared, etc are all taken care of.

dextercorvia
2010-07-26, 07:59 PM
Point buy for this? Im assuming 28, but want to be sure.

Busy statting up actual sheets for the competition, so those little details like skill ranks, spells known/prepared, etc are all taken care of.

I assumed 32, but I can adjust it if needed. Just drop a couple of points out of Charisma, and switch an Extra Slot for Extra Turning to be safe.

Malakar
2010-07-26, 08:00 PM
you can voluntarily lower the caster level

Do you have a citation for this?

senrath
2010-07-26, 08:01 PM
Do you have a citation for this?

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. " (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm)

Hurlbut
2010-07-26, 08:01 PM
Diplomancer:
RANKS: 5+level (cap feat): +11
Charisma (18+2 racial+2 cap feat +6 items): +9
Skill Focus: +3
Negotiator: +2
Savvy Rogue (take 12): +12
Skill Shard, +10: +10
Circlet of Persuasion: +3
Aid another from a Sharn: +3
Synergies: +6

So we have a 59 diplomacy check at all times. Balor doesn't stand a chance when he would either help (or after a little more persuasion) give his life for said rogue. :smallamused:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

Fanatic is in the Epic Level Handbook.

EDIT: Can't dip into ranger if I want to take Savvy rogue.You have to bear in mind a balor won't do something that is completely against his nature. There are also circumstance bonuses/penalties.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-26, 08:04 PM
Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Here ya go

JeminiZero
2010-07-26, 08:07 PM
Do you have a citation for this?

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. "

From this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Casting_Spells) page.

I would note that the voluntary lowering of caster level isn't even necessary. Since if my Arcanist casts at normal CL 6 (take 10 for total of 16), he still autofails against dispel DC of 18 (since I boosted the caster level of Explosive Runes through an easily available level 3 spell).

Edit: Wow, double ninja'ed. I'm really losing my touch.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-26, 08:11 PM
You have to bear in mind a balor won't do something that is completely against his nature. There are also circumstance bonuses/penalties.

Indeed, but addition of the Epic level Handbook includes being able to get someone to be "Fanatic". So, they would, by RAW give their life for you.

Plus, a 59 check at will, is enough to **** up that balor, just spend some time talking to it.

Also, this is all the stuff that I could add to it just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more stuff that can boost up that delicious diplomacy check.

Douglas
2010-07-26, 08:30 PM
Indeed, but addition of the Epic level Handbook includes being able to get someone to be "Fanatic". So, they would, by RAW give their life for you.
True, but you are rather far short of the DC to convert to that from an initial "Hostile" attitude, and Diplomacy usually does not allow retries.

Additionally, "Fanatic" is treated as a mind-affecting enchantment (and it most definitely grants some mental control over the subject), and would thus be blocked by the Unholy Aura that the book tactics list as a Balor's normal pre-combat action.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-26, 08:34 PM
True, but you are rather far short of the DC to convert to that from an initial "Hostile" attitude, and Diplomacy usually does not allow retries.

Well, it's DC 50 to get to helpful. So make friends with the Balor, grow real close together, and after a while, perhaps a long while, try talking to him again.
RAW is real fuzzy on retrying Diplomacy, so I guess it's up to Another Poet.

Either way, I'm naming my Diplomancer Dr. Phil.
Oh, and if we drop the race for cha for half-elf, we get it up to 60.

dextercorvia
2010-07-26, 08:43 PM
Well, it's DC 50 to get to helpful. So make friends with the Balor, grow real close together, and after a while, perhaps a long while, try talking to him again.
RAW is real fuzzy on retrying Diplomacy, so I guess it's up to Another Poet.

Either way, I'm naming my Diplomancer Dr. Phil.
Oh, and if we drop the race for cha for half-elf, we get it up to 60.

How are you getting Savvy Rogue without Rogue 10? Using the E6 feat, you may only take 10. Also, did you forget about the -10 penalty for rushing? I didn't see any ability that would allow you to avoid that.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-26, 08:48 PM
I assumed 32, but I can adjust it if needed. Just drop a couple of points out of Charisma, and switch an Extra Slot for Extra Turning to be safe.

Oddly enough, going up to 32 doesn't matter much for me. A touch higher reflex and will saves. It's nice, but I don't see it mattering all that much.

dextercorvia
2010-07-26, 08:50 PM
Oddly enough, going up to 32 doesn't matter much for me. A touch higher reflex and will saves. It's nice, but I don't see it mattering all that much.

For me either. It's really the 35 or so feats that does it for me. I just assumed it, since it's what I'm used to.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-26, 08:59 PM
How are you getting Savvy Rogue without Rogue 10? Using the E6 feat, you may only take 10. Also, did you forget about the -10 penalty for rushing? I didn't see any ability that would allow you to avoid that.

Ah, ok. I'll just have to settle with a 58 diplomacy check for now, unless I find some more cheese.
And no need to rush, once the talkin' get's starting, the rest of the party can keep the balor away from me.

awa
2010-07-26, 09:03 PM
I think combat would add some large penalties to the check and i thought you needed to kill the balor to win.

edit how are they going to keep the balor away from you for an e6 party surviving even a single round can be tough.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-26, 09:10 PM
Spend most of the WBL on hired Ogre Magi. xD

Hurlbut
2010-07-26, 09:44 PM
Spend most of the WBL on hired Ogre Magi. xD and what abilities would help it against a Balor? Doesn't balor have a spell or ability to see through invisibility?

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-26, 09:48 PM
True Seeing

Lhurgyof
2010-07-26, 10:12 PM
Why would they need to be invisible?
Just hire, like 100 of them, and have them make an ogre mage-wall.

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 11:43 PM
I think I already wrote instructions for that somewhere in the Arcanist Build section. Essentially, use Arcane Mastery to take 10 to dispel checks. While not permitted to autofail dispel, you can voluntarily lower the caster level to 5 (minimum for level 3 spells) and take 10 for a total of 15, which automatically fails against level 7 explosive runes (Dispel DC 18).

Thanks, I'll update the list.


Point buy for this? Im assuming 28, but want to be sure.

32 is fine.


i thought you needed to kill the balor to win.

You need to decisively defeat it or otherwise render it "never again a threat." I have ruled that getting it on a different plane does not count, because frankly I am skeptical in believing that a demon prince won't find a way to come back for revenge. Other methods of defeating it without killing it, such as converting it to your willing thrall or freezing it in carbonite, are viable.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-27, 01:13 AM
For me either. It's really the 35 or so feats that does it for me. I just assumed it, since it's what I'm used to.

Oddly enough, while building the characters actually on the sheets, my first thought is "damn, I wish I had more feats".

Cespenar
2010-07-27, 01:15 AM
This may sound somewhat stupid, and perhaps already discussed somewhere else, but can you attack with your main hand weapon, then change hands, wield that same weapon in your off-hand and continue your full attack routine?

jseah
2010-07-27, 01:54 AM
Warlock 6
- With Summon Swarm Invocation
- Has Dark Speech (feat from BoVD)

CE Old Age Human Cleric 6
- Has a Candle of Invocation
- Cloak of Charisma +4
- Base 18 Cha + 2 Age
- Max ranks in Spellcraft

Artificer 6
- Crafts a scroll of Dimensional Anchor
- Crafts 3 wands of CL8 Magic Missile
- Crafts 1 wand of Assay Spell Resistance
- Crafts 3 wands of True Casting
- 35 toughness feats (important!)

Monk 6
- Has Vow of Peace and Poverty

Tactics:
Warlock 6 summons a swarm of bats and uses Dark Speech to make them a hivemind. Dimunitive swarm = 5000 flying creatures = +97 Intelligence & Charisma = 101 Cha = Casts as a 84th level sorceror.

Monk 6 builds a bonfire. Cleric 6 casts Eagle's Splendour on himself. Artificer uses Item Alteration to convert the Cloak of Charisma's bonus to a morale bonus. Cleric 6 now has a charisma of 28.

Cleric 6 casts Magic Circle Against Evil focused inwards. Draws a Calling Diagram, taking 20 on the check for autosuccess.
Artificer 6 casts Dimensional Anchor from scroll on the Diagram. Cleric 6 burns the Candle of Invocation in the bonfire and gates the Balor into the circle.

Balor cannot use SR or Dimensional Travel to get out.
Cha check: (assuming this still applies from Lesser Planar Binding)
Balor has
+8 from charisma
-5 from Calling Diagram
= +3

DC of Cha check = 15 + 1/2 CL + cha mod
CL of Candle = 17
Cha mod = 9
DC = 32
This means the Balor autofails the cha check.

I'm not attempting to compel or control the Balor, there is no opposed cha check.

Everyone leaves the area except for Artificer 6.
He empties all 3 MM wands into the balor with the help of Assay Spell Resistance and True Casting to pierce the SR of the Balor.
3 x 50 charges = 150 castings
4d4+4 dmg = 8 minimum dmg = 1200 dmg minimum -> Balor dies
Artificer tanks the Death Throes via his 35 toughness feats (+105hp before levels)

JeminiZero
2010-07-27, 02:22 AM
Tactics:
Warlock 6 summons a swarm of bats and uses Dark Speech to make them a hivemind. Dimunitive swarm = 5000 flying creatures = +97 Intelligence & Charisma = 101 Cha = Casts as a 84th level sorceror.

This sounded utterly broken to me so I checked BoVD:


The words of the Dark Speech can create a hivemind. Up to one hundred vermin or animals (none of which can have more than 1 HD) form an evil hivemind

Cespenar
2010-07-27, 02:35 AM
Wait, I just thought of another idea.

Four Master Throwers, with TWF, Rapid Shot, Palm Throw and Wounding Shuriken for 10 attacks times four people = 40 constitution damage. Scrolls of Wraithstrike for near-guaranteed hits.

Anything wrong with this? It seems too easy, so something must be wrong.

JeminiZero
2010-07-27, 02:43 AM
Wriathstrike only applies to melee attacks.

Adumbration
2010-07-27, 02:52 AM
This sounded utterly broken to me so I checked BoVD:

There is, unfortunately, an updated version of the feat in Elder Evils, and it holds no such restrictions.

Another_Poet
2010-07-27, 09:27 AM
This may sound somewhat stupid, and perhaps already discussed somewhere else, but can you attack with your main hand weapon, then change hands, wield that same weapon in your off-hand and continue your full attack routine?

It's not stupid, but no, you cannot.

jseah
2010-07-27, 10:21 AM
^Edited post.

Cha check DC was miscalculated. Is actually 32. Not that it makes a difference (balor autofails by 1 by +Cha mod alone)

Cleric 6 was mistakenly named Cleric5/Marshal1 in certain areas. (it used to be a marshal dip, but since I'm not negotiating, I don't need opposed cha checks and don't need marshal)