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View Full Version : Simulate this character in 3.5: Kenshiro



Jackgar
2010-07-21, 01:33 AM
So I had a sudden case of "what if?" today and thought it would be a fun experiment to see how we could convert Kenshiro of Fist of the North star to a D&D 3.5 PC. I suppose the easy answer would be some kind of Epic Monk or Unarmed Swordsage, but that doesn't seem like enough.

To anyone who isn't familiar with the character and his anime/manga, essentially he's a Bruce Lee (anime) or quasi-Mad Max (manga) looking guy who practices a martial art that uses pressure points to do basically anything to your body that he wants. The usual is blowing you up from within, but he's done things like force a guy's legs to walk him backwards off a tower, made a firebreather's throat contract to cause the flames to consume him, made two guys hug each other to death, and all sorts of other ridiculousness. I figure with the flexibility of 3.5, I'm sure there's an optimization that would simulate him perfectly.

And for those of you who ARE familiar with him, I'd want to try for an "ideal" Kenshiro. Since his power changes depending on his portrayl, we'll go with some kind of movie/tv anime mix, with the insane physical feats he's done in the movie (chopping an office building down with one hand, then letting it fall on him without stopping his stride; jumping so high in the air with so much hangtime he's almost flying), with the array of abilities he shows in the show (Musou Tensei, Fist of Lingering Regret, so on)

Of course, it might be possible that he's just so over the top that it can't be done in 3.5 (although almost certainly in, say, Exalted or maybe M&M), but if it can be done, it'd probably be with people here.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 01:40 AM
Tashatalora (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm).

Rixx
2010-07-21, 01:47 AM
This topic is already dead.

Jackgar
2010-07-21, 01:47 AM
Tashatalora (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm).

That's definitely a good start. I do recall him using one of his ranged energy attacks (he rarely uses such attacks, but they're a big deal when he does) to get one of his controlling effects on, but it's usually through touch. Are there any ways of simulating the effect through touch attacks? The fact that Fort saves is definitely a plus for the flavor, though. Even particularly Willfill people like Ameeba have been forced to act by a move, but a guy like Heart who would have a colossal Fort save wouldn't be likely to be affected.

Another thought: He'd need a way to get a LOT of attacks per round, and in multiple directions if necessary.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 02:00 AM
That's definitely a good start. I do recall him using one of his ranged energy attacks (he rarely uses such attacks, but they're a big deal when he does) to get one of his controlling effects on, but it's usually through touch. Are there any ways of simulating the effect through touch attacks?Yes. Say that the effect takes hold when you touch the enemy.

Another thought: He'd need a way to get a LOT of attacks per round, and in multiple directions if necessary.Tashatalora progresses Flurry of Blows, I seem to recall. Multiple directions is not a problem when there aren't facing rules in the first place.

[Edit]: Snap Kick and/or Roundabout Kick.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 02:03 AM
There's pretty much no way the guy is epic, as a side note.

Basically the only unique thing about him is that he can get weird effects to happen, but if, as he says, "you're already dead," who cares about the fluff?

Optimystik
2010-07-21, 02:04 AM
Tashalatora progresses the following:

- AC
- Fist die
- Flurry

AslanCross
2010-07-21, 02:25 AM
This topic is already dead.

I see what you did there. :smallamused:

Prime32
2010-07-21, 03:21 AM
Have some links to related topics:
Building Kenshiro (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7778.0)
FotNS campaign (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6701.0)


Half-giant Monk 2/Unarmed swordsage 3/War mind 10/Unarmed swordsage +4
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect ArrowsB, Pain Touch, Pharaoh's Fist, Pressure Point Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Pressure_Point_Strike), Rapid Stunning, Stunning FistB, Sun School, Tashalatora (war mind), Weakening Touch
Flaws: Grudge Keeper (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Grudge_Keeper), Honorable Challenge (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Honorable_Challenge)
Equipment: Monk's belt, +1 deep crystal necklace of natural weapons of speedYou can stack greater flurry with Tiger Claw manuevers for massive numbers of attacks, and each one affects two squares. Twice per turn he can create effects which include:

Stunned for 1 round, nauseated for next
Paralysis
Penalty to Str
Poisoned
Cannot use magic

These affect both squares, and any squares adjacent to them.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 03:24 AM
Far too high a level.

Prime32
2010-07-21, 03:26 AM
Far too high a level.Please look at these:

Feats of Strength (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnuNWKudq0s)
Feats of Speed (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVaWN6PvfA) | 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi38Q5_79Q0&feature=related))
Feats of Durability (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZW1Gl_BayI) | 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWv9c-K6QiA))
Kenshiro can move at supersonic speeds, shrug off tank fire, destroy said tank with his bare hands, lift giant boulders, and turn ethereal while causing anything he passes through to explode.

He's certainly higher-level than Aragorn.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 03:31 AM
Still far too high a level. Yes, he's impressive. He's not on the scale of level 20 D&D heroes, at all. D&D heroes can instantaneously teleport anywhere, stop time, kill dragons in one hit, decimate armies in seconds, survive being fired on by things that make tanks look like b-b guns, break tanks without spending thirty seconds wailing on them (spending more than part of a six second round would be fairly weak), break basically anything they want with a touch, avoid all attacks from mundane foes, change planes, turn into anything they want, fight gods with good chances of success (for certain builds), come back from the dead casually, etc.

Aragorn is not a high level at all, so I don't know what saying "he's a higher level" implies there.

Yes, he's awesome. That doesn't mean he's 20th level. That doesn't mean 20th level characters are more awesome than him, either.

EDIT: As another side note, D&D is very bad at modelling a lot of things; Kenshiro can go ethereal, which is normally a high level ability, but what he demonstrates otherwise are not things that strike me as level 20 abilities.

FatR
2010-07-21, 04:14 AM
Kenshiro is not particularly powerful, in DnD terms. The manga version starts at about level 7-9 and ends at about 10-13. He can curbstomp human and ogre-equivalent mooks until he gets tired, has general strength and endurance above most street-level superheroes, can kill a giant who has supernatural abilities, and defeat warriors who cut people into spaghetti at range by waving their hands. He also has 1001 inventive way to brutally kill mooks. But he's not outright immune to mook-level attacks (he need to avoid arrows and blades), he never fights anything high-level crazy, and only rarely and with major effort he can create outright supernatural effects, like ranged ki attacks.
The anime/OVA versions are not consistent in power level, but tend to present him as significantly more powerful. There, on average, he totally can punch tanks into scrap and cut steel balls bigger than himself in half with his bare hand, and do so without any visible effort. Probably starts at about level 13-14 and levels up a few times in the course of his adventures.

As about the class, I'd propose an unarmed swordsage, with a custom-written maneuver school, as a basis. This is probably the closest fit.

Jackgar
2010-07-21, 04:16 AM
Please look at these:

Kenshiro can move at supersonic speeds, shrug off tank fire, destroy said tank with his bare hands, lift giant boulders, and turn ethereal while causing anything he passes through to explode.

He's certainly higher-level than Aragorn.

You forgot one very important feat of both strength and durability. Remember: Movie version is included. Skip to 4:40 (also, he can detect when a little girl's about to get crushed. I'm not sure if it's worth noting, mechanically) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLdY9n2-5tw) And this might not necessarily be an epic feat (not in the mechanical sense!), but in the movie he also survives falling down what's essentially the Grand Canyon, and then having huge chunks of it collapse on him.

Also, I'd think he'd have to at least dip Barbarian, just to Rage. As for Honorable Challenge....would harming the innocent count as an explicit challenge to Kenshiro? I'm sure it doesn't normally, but considering the guy's intense passion for protecting the weak, he might see it that way.

And about the ethereal thing (Musou Tensei), don't forget he can not only manipulate, but outright destroy objects while shifted over, even if they can't touch him back.

Morph Bark
2010-07-21, 04:27 AM
Still far too high a level. Yes, he's impressive. He's not on the scale of level 20 D&D heroes, at all. D&D heroes can instantaneously teleport anywhere, stop time, kill dragons in one hit, decimate armies in seconds, survive being fired on by things that make tanks look like b-b guns, break tanks without spending thirty seconds wailing on them (spending more than part of a six second round would be fairly weak), break basically anything they want with a touch, avoid all attacks from mundane foes, change planes, turn into anything they want, fight gods with good chances of success (for certain builds), come back from the dead casually, etc.

This assumes casters though, generally not melee fighters and certainly not monks or psychic warriors.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 05:08 AM
This assumes casters though, generally not melee fighters and certainly not monks or psychic warriors.Psywars are better than most martial characters, and don't deserve to be lumped with monks. (Except in a build, of course.)

Kythorian
2010-07-21, 08:36 AM
I have seen only bits and peices of that show, so I have not seen all the things he has done, but keep in mind that your

he also survives falling down what's essentially the Grand Canyon, and then having huge chunks of it collapse on him.


...really isn't that impressive in d&d. falling damage caps at 10d6, and huge chunks of it collapse on him probably isn't any worse than cometfall...so between 15d6 to 20d6 at the most. Even assuming its 20d6...thats only 105 average damage for both falling and the collapse of the canyon on him (assuming no DR, or anything to reduce the falling damage(which seems unlikely, really)). He has high con, so assuming d8's, level 13-15, as people are saying, seems appropriate. He could easily survive that amount of damage at that level.

People just tend to underestimate how massively powerful someone over lvl 10 really is when you look at what they can really do.

Morph Bark
2010-07-21, 08:40 AM
I have seen only bits and peices of that show, so I have not seen all the things he has done, but keep in mind that your


...really isn't that impressive in d&d. falling damage caps at 10d6, and huge chunks of it collapse on him probably isn't any worse than cometfall...so between 15d6 to 20d6 at the most. Even assuming its 20d6...thats only 105 average damage for both falling and the collapse of the canyon on him (assuming no DR, or anything to reduce the falling damage(which seems unlikely, really)). He has high con, so assuming d8's, level 13-15, as people are saying, seems appropriate. He could easily survive that amount of damage at that level.

People just tend to underestimate how massively powerful someone over lvl 10 really is when you look at what they can really do.

Wait... I thought it capped at 20d6? :smallconfused:

Kythorian
2010-07-21, 08:43 AM
Is it? could be...its been a while since I have had to look that one up. Regardless, the point stands. He could survive another 10d6.

For that matter, the canyon falling on him would almost certainly be a refl half, and i could easily see him having evasion, depending on how he was built, meaning he likely took no, or at most, half damage from the canyon falling on him.

Morph Bark
2010-07-21, 08:53 AM
Is it? could be...its been a while since I have had to look that one up. Regardless, the point stands. He could survive another 10d6.

For that matter, the canyon falling on him would almost certainly be a refl half, and i could easily see him having evasion, depending on how he was built, meaning he likely took no, or at most, half damage from the canyon falling on him.

Well, it does fall under "rocks fall", basically... :smallamused:

I'm not familiar with the character besides an animated gif I once say, but the OP seems to want the best stuff for Kenshiro:


And for those of you who ARE familiar with him, I'd want to try for an "ideal" Kenshiro. Since his power changes depending on his portrayal

Plus, he mentioned "Epic Monk or Unarmed Swordsage" -- and I suppose since he didn't say Epic Unarmed Swordsage that at the very least means he's aware of the lower power of the Monk.

At most we can at least determine what level Kenshiro should be at minimum due to the amounts of damage he's been seen taking and dealing (though other characters might he encounters might be close to his level and thus not be appropriate to estimate his damage-dealing capabilities, so objects and the like are better). For all we know he is above level 20, but he just isn't a guy with any high-end magical powers and with no magic items to boost him even further.

I'm just sayin'.

Jackgar
2010-07-21, 10:48 AM
Well, it does fall under "rocks fall", basically... :smallamused:

I guess that shows he can make his Save vs DM roll. Which seems pretty high-powered to me! :smalltongue:


I'm not familiar with the character besides an animated gif I once say, but the OP seems to want the best stuff for Kenshiro:



Plus, he mentioned "Epic Monk or Unarmed Swordsage" -- and I suppose since he didn't say Epic Unarmed Swordsage that at the very least means he's aware of the lower power of the Monk.

At most we can at least determine what level Kenshiro should be at minimum due to the amounts of damage he's been seen taking and dealing (though other characters might he encounters might be close to his level and thus not be appropriate to estimate his damage-dealing capabilities, so objects and the like are better). For all we know he is above level 20, but he just isn't a guy with any high-end magical powers and with no magic items to boost him even further.

I'm just sayin'.

You're right about why I said Epic Monk and not Epic Swordsage. An Epic Swordsage could do some REALLY stupid crap, while Epic Monk can just do mostly stupid crap. As for the encounters being close to his level, there's an outright absurd power gap between mooks and marquee fighters in the series. Mooks break their axes trying to hurt the guy, while any important named character can fight him about evenly, and it seems all the major martial arts have ways to resist the instant-death effects of Hokuto Shinken.

The equipment thing is a factor here,too, in considering his power. As in, he has none. The only weapon he's even been seen to carry at all is a pair of nunchaku, and that was for about two seconds, just to reflect some knives back into their throwers' skulls. I don't think he even smacked anyone with them. At most, his clothes have some sort of enchantment that allow them to re-form to their original state after exploding off his body in every episode. Very, very few other major characters are seen with any noteworthy gear. Really, just Jagi (shotgun and some explosives), Jackal (Normal guy, but a dynamite-user. Didn't seem to bother Ken, though), and Ulghar (helmet with horns that can be pulled out to make multi-pronged whips). There might be one or two other filler villains, but that's it.

We should at least think on what sort of stats he'd have. Obviously, dex, str, and con are through the roof. Charisma would at least be above-average, as, combined with his reputation, people are always happy to see him, and he makes friends easily. Int might not be quite as high, in large part due to the lack of traditional schooling you'd see being raised to succeed a martial art would get, but he's able to calculate trajectories well. That might just be a basic part of Hokuto Shinken, though. Wisdom should be quite good, at least enough to jack up his Will save, since he sees through illusions without any real difficulty. And I think Pressure Point Strike uses DC10 + 1/2 level + Wisdom modifier, so it'd have to be high enough that it'd be nearly impossible for anyone below a certain level. If we assume all normal mooks in the world are level 1 Fighters, then it should be outright impossible for a level 1 fighter to make, and still very hard for higher levels.
EDIT: Oh and...


For that matter, the canyon falling on him would almost certainly be a refl half, and i could easily see him having evasion, depending on how he was built, meaning he likely took no, or at most, half damage from the canyon falling on him.

He was unconscious at the time. And if I'm not mistaken, you can't make that save if you're not awake.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 01:29 PM
Err... an epic swordsage doesn't even exist. Without homebrew, there isn't even an epic progression for it; you wouldn't get anything but a higher IL.

Anyway, my post did include melee characters; while not necessarily as much, since casters are broken, melee still fell under the "Wouldn't need thirty seconds to beat up a tank, could easily survive the stuff that Kenshiro survived multiple times, could probably OHKO dragons, could break basically anything [including tanks] in one hit, etc."

Kythorian
2010-07-21, 01:32 PM
Ah...you are correct. But even without the save, its still only an avg of at most 140 hp. Which should be fairly easily survivable, assuming good con at lvl 13-14. Lets say 14 for simplicity.

He is supposted to be pretty amazing physically. And i could see high wis based on all the martial arts training. So lets say 36 point build, since hes supposted to be quite awesome in general. (oh, and i agree that the reflecting things back at people is probably just an instictual thing from his martial arts training, not actually working out the trajectories of the paths and how he would need to hit them, etc. So I would say average int).

str 14, dex 14, con 15, int 10, wis 16, cha 12

Plus 3 from levels:

str 14, dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 18, cha 12

Plus some inherent bonuses from some manuals he probably read, if he isn't going to bother with any magical equipment.

str 18, dex 18, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Plus what appears to be a perm. enlarge person...

str 20, dex 16, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Seems appropriate(High MAD, but what do you expect with a monk type?)

And as for that power you mentioned to make people blow up, DC would be 10+7(half of level)+6=23. High enough that a lvl 1 fighter mook would need a natural 20 to succeed, but not high enough that an equal level with decent saves would need too much of a roll.

HP at lvl 14 = 8(1st lvl)+13d8(avg 58.5)+70=136.5

So that fall and the canyon falling on him was probably quite painful, but survivable, anyway.

Morph Bark
2010-07-21, 03:28 PM
Plus what appears to be a perm. enlarge person...

str 20, dex 16, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Maybe at some point he got reincarnated into a very good-looking half-ogre? :smallamused:

Jackgar
2010-07-21, 03:39 PM
Ah...you are correct. But even without the save, its still only an avg of at most 140 hp. Which should be fairly easily survivable, assuming good con at lvl 13-14. Lets say 14 for simplicity.

He is supposted to be pretty amazing physically. And i could see high wis based on all the martial arts training. So lets say 36 point build, since hes supposted to be quite awesome in general. (oh, and i agree that the reflecting things back at people is probably just an instictual thing from his martial arts training, not actually working out the trajectories of the paths and how he would need to hit them, etc. So I would say average int).

str 14, dex 14, con 15, int 10, wis 16, cha 12

Plus 3 from levels:

str 14, dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 18, cha 12

Plus some inherent bonuses from some manuals he probably read, if he isn't going to bother with any magical equipment.

str 18, dex 18, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Plus what appears to be a perm. enlarge person...

str 20, dex 16, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Seems appropriate(High MAD, but what do you expect with a monk type?)

And as for that power you mentioned to make people blow up, DC would be 10+7(half of level)+6=23. High enough that a lvl 1 fighter mook would need a natural 20 to succeed, but not high enough that an equal level with decent saves would need too much of a roll.

HP at lvl 14 = 8(1st lvl)+13d8(avg 58.5)+70=136.5

So that fall and the canyon falling on him was probably quite painful, but survivable, anyway.

Looks pretty good, although the Dex seems to be kinda low. He regularly commits some outrageous feats of speed, such as moving faster than the human eye can follow, hitting a very specific sequence of points on an opponent's body without him realizing, and catching an arrow in midair, then throwing it back with two fingers, hitting a very small, specific part of the eye, and so on. I see the perm enlarge person just for stats, although it's more fitting for a guy like Raoh, who really would be a Large creature.

Oh, and in regards to comparing how much damage he does in the tank scene? That's really not the extent he can reach. Like how earlier I put up a clip where he flat-out topples office buildings casually with one hit. And there's another scene in the tv anime where he punches through walls in the interior of a battleship without much (any) effort, and pulls a guy back through it. The walls inside a battleship are made of some pretty damn good steel. The scene also reinforces his high Wis score, since he's able to hear a guy through those thick as hell walls.

Morph Bark
2010-07-21, 03:51 PM
Looks pretty good, although the Dex seems to be kinda low. He regularly commits some outrageous feats of speed, such as moving faster than the human eye can follow, hitting a very specific sequence of points on an opponent's body without him realizing, and catching an arrow in midair, then throwing it back with two fingers, hitting a very small, specific part of the eye, and so on. I see the perm enlarge person just for stats, although it's more fitting for a guy like Raoh, who really would be a Large creature.

That's speed though. Monks get ridiculous speed bonuses, plus a lot of those things could simply be feats (Deflect Arrows and then some?).

Not to mention flurry of blows + Mosquito Strike skill trick (unarmed = light weapon) would do something for him.

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 05:49 PM
I get in this argument with a freind sometimes. I think he's about level 14 or so, he thinks he's the paragon of epicness. Then again, I emulated Dante at level 15, so I think I'm giving him a bit too much credit here.

Anyway, first, attacks are an abstraction. If they aren't, I'm a level 16 character, as I can fire a gun more than 6 times hitting center of mass within 6 seconds, and I can swing a sword 4 times, any of which could potentially be damaging if they connect (though in real life, people block a bit more effectively than D&D, where you apparantly just let magic armour do your blocking.)

So, his billion light speed attacks in 6 seconds merely need to describe the damage and number of individuals he could hit.

I'd build him as 11 levels of monk, 2 levels of thug variant fighter, 1 level of warblade.

Race, human.
Feats: jotunbrod, improved natural attack, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, power attack, stunning fist, deflect arrows, snatch arrows, improved disarm, improved toughness, superior unarmed strike.

Abuses the mosquito's bite skill trick. Uses manuevers to more easily break objects, get more attacks, or to cause more damage.

He can probably survive 6 or so direct hits from tanks with this build, or more if given those really high con scores that people like giving him. He can punch someone into pulp, and they don't feel it for a round, where they spontaneously die, he attacks a large number of times per round compared to any normal person, his attacks probably trigger massive damage saves. He deals enough damage vs. objects that he could very feasibly break an office tower etc.

For reference, first level you will on average survive getting hit by missile: Level 3 barbarian. You even remain concious if you rage. First level you could make an ogre explode to death on a delay in one round is 7 anything with sleight of hand. Strength required to meet the break DC of an office building, around 30.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 06:18 PM
I get in this argument with a freind sometimes. I think he's about level 14 or so, he thinks he's the paragon of epicness. Then again, I emulated Dante at level 15, so I think I'm giving him a bit too much credit here.

Anyway, first, attacks are an abstraction. If they aren't, I'm a level 16 character, as I can fire a gun more than 6 times hitting center of mass within 6 seconds, and I can swing a sword 4 times, any of which could potentially be damaging if they connect (though in real life, people block a bit more effectively than D&D, where you apparantly just let magic armour do your blocking.)

So, his billion light speed attacks in 6 seconds merely need to describe the damage and number of individuals he could hit.

I'd build him as 11 levels of monk, 2 levels of thug variant fighter, 1 level of warblade.

Race, human.
Feats: jotunbrod, improved natural attack, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, power attack, stunning fist, deflect arrows, snatch arrows, improved disarm, improved toughness, superior unarmed strike.

Abuses the mosquito's bite skill trick. Uses manuevers to more easily break objects, get more attacks, or to cause more damage.

He can probably survive 6 or so direct hits from tanks with this build, or more if given those really high con scores that people like giving him. He can punch someone into pulp, and they don't feel it for a round, where they spontaneously die, he attacks a large number of times per round compared to any normal person, his attacks probably trigger massive damage saves. He deals enough damage vs. objects that he could very feasibly break an office tower etc.

For reference, first level you will on average survive getting hit by missile: Level 3 barbarian. You even remain concious if you rage. First level you could make an ogre explode to death on a delay in one round is 7 anything with sleight of hand. Strength required to meet the break DC of an office building, around 30.

You honestly think it takes a level 7 character to OHKO an ogre?

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 06:25 PM
You honestly think it takes a level 7 character to OHKO an ogre?

Assuming you aren't trying very hard.

Edit: No wait, that's when you can delay it IIRC.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 06:26 PM
Assuming you aren't trying very hard.That explains the 11 levels in monk.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 06:30 PM
Assuming you aren't trying very hard.

I don't think 29 damage in a round would be considered trying hard for anything above level 3.

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 06:30 PM
For a monk?

Edit: 39. Kill, not knock unconcious.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 06:32 PM
For a monk?

Edit: 39. Kill, not knock unconcious.

Ah, fair enough. And yes, for a monk, that's high, but that's why you go unarmed swordsage. Or psywar.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 06:42 PM
Ah, fair enough. And yes, for a monk, that's high, but that's why you go unarmed swordsage. Or psywar.Hmm. Human barbarian 3. 18 Strength when not raging. Whirling Frenzy & Spirit Lion Totem. Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Two-weapon fighting.

Average damage per round 33. (Power Attacking to full and hitting with all three attacks.)

With two flaws: Flying Kick & Superior Unarmed Strike.

Average damage per round 50. (Power Attacking to full and hitting with all three attacks while charging.)

[Edit]: Your to-hit would be worse than monk's, even, though… A greatsword is much better for ogre-felling.
[Edit]: Damn, only half of strength score to off-hand strikes, so reduce both numbers by 3.

Jackgar
2010-07-21, 07:27 PM
I hear Warmind being tossed around for the Kenshiro build alot. I'm not too familiar with it. What book is it in?

As for another ability of his notable and oft-used enough for simulating, he has an ability called Art of Dragon's Breath (the shirt-explosion/aura thing), that I imagine as some sort of Raging. Now I had thought about just straight-up rage to simulate it, but one of the key points of it is that it also makes your body far tougher to damage. Is their any sort of feat or class feature that can add Damage Reduction while Raging?

And for those wondering why his Con's so highly judged by people who know the character: He regularly shoves off poisons, paralysis, and extreme blood loss. How extreme? In a couple fights, he had blood pouring by the pint from each of his limbs, both pecs, all over his back, and smaller, but still high-pressure spraying wounds spread throughout his entire body. Naturally, he still wins those fights.Basically, he either has way more blood than anyman should, or Hokuto Shinken has some kind of rapid blood replacement ability he never mentions.

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 09:59 PM
Things you survive by level.

Level 1: Survive getting knifed. A common Joe that didn't get crit.
Level 5: Survive getting shot in the face. 6 times. In one sitting. Bullet Tooth Tony.
Level 10: Survive a free fall from a helicopter at terminal velocity, after a full day of fistfights, car accidents and a gunfight while poisoned. That guy from Crank.
Level 15: One of those homunculous things from full metal alchemist. Basically, you don't die from mundane stuff like bleeding anymore.
Level 20: Stand in the middle of a nuclear blast without buffs, and shrug it off.
Epic: Nuclear blasts are no longer a concern to you.

Kenshiro is somewhere between 10 and 15 on that scale. He does bleed, and nothing indicates that he literally can't be killed, but things like bullets, huge hits from freaks and losing 10 quarts of blood don't phase him. That's 10-15. With a standard adventurers con + maybe an item. I'd say it's possible at a 16 con.

Edit: Shirt exploding isn't an ability. At best, it's an intimidate check.

Warmind is a good class if you think he's psychic. It's a psionic prestige class which can be found in the SRD for free. I think it's a pretty good fit with what he does, but I'd prefer keeping the build for this kind of character relatively mundane.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-21, 10:41 PM
What kind of damage does a falling Skyscraper do, anyway?

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 10:50 PM
Damage is based on weight and the height it fell from, AFAIK. Assuming it didn't somehow manage to all hit him at once while concentrated on him (which D&D doesn't really have a way to model; if a giant sheet of paper a few miles wide fell on you, you'd still take the same damage as if an equal weight block of superdensium fell on your head), it would probably be about the weight somebody in D&D can easily survive.

Merk
2010-07-21, 10:59 PM
Strength-focused Unarmed Swordsage somewhere between level 10 and 15, probably on the lower end of that. Somehow has the monk's Quivering Palm, but available more times per day and at a lower level (perhaps through maneuvers).

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-21, 11:14 PM
Damage is based on weight and the height it fell from, AFAIK. Assuming it didn't somehow manage to all hit him at once while concentrated on him (which D&D doesn't really have a way to model; if a giant sheet of paper a few miles wide fell on you, you'd still take the same damage as if an equal weight block of superdensium fell on your head), it would probably be about the weight somebody in D&D can easily survive.

I had a bit of a google and a look at the SRD. 1d6 per 200lbs. Assuming US Tons, it comes to 3650000d6 if you drop the empire state building on someone.
(With up to another 20d6 if you drop it from high enough above 10ft)

It wasn't the empire state building dropping on him in that clip, admittedly, but I think it's an interesting comparison never the less.

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 11:18 PM
That's about right if it falls tip first on you and is completely intact. Crumbling buildings IRL however, deal around 1d6 to who knows. A lot of people get caught in the rubble and live, so it's really hard to predict how much you're going to take in any one spot.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-21, 11:36 PM
Sure. What about in the video in question, though? (The one linked on the last page, with instructions to skip to 4:40.)
Skip to about 5:10.

The bit where his head takes the whole weight of the building, (which moments later cracks off along that section), without even breaking his stride. Literally walking through the concrete, face first.

From the clips linked at various points in this thread, I really can see level 20, 20+ non-wizard itemless character. Very easily.

It's not that it's a favourite anime, I've barely seen any more than linked in this thread. But it really does not seem like level 10ish is a fair estimate.

And 1d6 for being in a collapsing building? I had a DM roll 1d4 to 1d6ish for a player who got bumped by a kitchen door swinging open and bumping them in the face once.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 11:47 PM
Sure. What about in the video in question, though? (The one linked on the last page, with instructions to skip to 4:40.)
Skip to about 5:10.

The bit where his head takes the whole weight of the building, (which moments later cracks off along that section), without even breaking his stride. Literally walking through the concrete, face first.

Which of the videos, exactly? In both the feats of durability, 5:10 is something that is distinctly not getting a building dropped on him. Anyway, falling objects do allow a reflex save, so... he passed the save? They're generally pretty easy; DC 15 to avoid all damage, IIRC.


From the clips linked at various points in this thread, I really can see level 20, 20+ non-wizard itemless character. Very easily.

And I can't see him being higher than maybe a weak 15th level character.

It's not that it's a favourite anime, I've barely seen any more than linked in this thread. But it really does not seem like level 10ish is a fair estimate.


And 1d6 for being in a collapsing building? I had a DM roll 1d4 to 1d6ish for a player who got bumped by a kitchen door swinging open and bumping them in the face once.

You'd knock most normal humans unconcious for what would be, at most, an annoying bruise? Unless you mean "Giant breaking the door over their head" I can't see a door even doing one point of damage (maybe 1 nonlethal). Hell, most RL doors can be broken by being kicked; getting one broken over your head probably wouldn't even be lethal because the door would break before your skull would, unless you live in a place where all doors are solid wood (here, building code has most all doors being hollow).

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 11:49 PM
A good thing to remember. If you were in D&D land, you'd be a level 1 commoner. You would have 2-3 hit points. If it's even possible for you to survive the hit, it does less than 13 d6.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-21, 11:54 PM
Which of the videos, exactly? In both the feats of durability, 5:10 is something that is distinctly not getting a building dropped on him. Anyway, falling objects do allow a reflex save, so... he passed the save? They're generally pretty easy; DC 15 to avoid all damage, IIRC.



You'd knock most normal humans unconcious for what would be, at most, an annoying bruise? Unless you mean "Giant breaking the door over their head" I can't see a door even doing one point of damage (maybe 1 nonlethal).

Not me personally rolling that as a DM, rather a slightly infamous DM I played under. It was somewhere between low magic retro fantasy, and terrifying survival horror. :smallwink:

We were trying to get into a busy pub's kitchen at the time.


as for the video... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLdY9n2-5tw)

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 11:57 PM
Not me personally rolling that as a DM, rather a slightly infamous DM I played under. It was somewhere between low magic retro fantasy, and terrifying survival horror. :smallwink:

We were trying to get into a busy pub's kitchen at the time.


as for the video... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLdY9n2-5tw)

Well, the building didn't exactly fall on him. I mean, it did, but it wasn't like the falling "this object strikes you" type falling; it was hardly moving, and he just stopped it (with his skull, granted). D&D is very poor at modelling that sort of thing, but it basically seems to me like that qualifies as a successful reflex save to avoid falling damage.

EDIT: Also, unless it was a "let's play as cats small animals not capable of killing commoners campaign" I can't see it being scary after realizing the DM would be willing to have doors kill you. It would just be either annoying or hilariously sadistic at that point.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-21, 11:59 PM
What about the bit where he keeps walking, destroying the concrete directly infront of his face by casually and without effort walking forwards?

[edit] and you basically nailed it on the head with hilariously sadistic.
I entered the campaign a slightly poor level 2, and ended as a level 6 or so.

And significantly more poor. Even the police shook you down as a matter of course.

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 11:59 PM
Why was he wearing a mud suit?

That aside, it was "falling" on him for 12 seconds. At that point, all you can really say is he has enough strength to lift a skyscraper, which is something I'd have bought for this guy, but strength and lifting capacity have nothing to do with level. A lot of anime characters are like ants. They can carry things many times their weight, and can fall from ridiculous heights without a scratch, but most aren't exactly high level.

Edit: Face is a weapon for monks. In the build I gave, his face does 2d10 damage + strength + power attack etc. Not only that, but his face was making 5 attacks every 6 seconds, with only 1 needed to shatter a 5/5 area.

Milskidasith
2010-07-22, 12:02 AM
What about the bit where he keeps walking, destroying the concrete directly infront of his face by casually and without effort walking forwards?

And? Epic D&D characters can smash the earth. Not "I can break dirt" as in "I can literally hit the break DC to smash the earth into bits." (OK, that requires some cheese, but still).

Anyway, D&D rules wise, if he is a monk/has unarmed strikes... you can use any part of your body. He just hit the break check for concrete and smashed it with his upper body.

He's massively strong, yes, but that doesn't strike me as level 20 type stuff. See: How long it took him to destroy a tank.

Jackgar
2010-07-22, 12:59 AM
And? Epic D&D characters can smash the earth. Not "I can break dirt" as in "I can literally hit the break DC to smash the earth into bits." (OK, that requires some cheese, but still).

Anyway, D&D rules wise, if he is a monk/has unarmed strikes... you can use any part of your body. He just hit the break check for concrete and smashed it with his upper body.

He's massively strong, yes, but that doesn't strike me as level 20 type stuff. See: How long it took him to destroy a tank.

The tank thing comes up all the time, and points out something I figured was going to make this tricky: Wildly varying portrayls. Sure, in that one scene, he took however long to make a tank explode. But in another scene, he casually thrusts his arms through the interior walls of a battleship like they were paper. And in another, he collapsed a helipad with one strike, while he was engulfed in flames. Presumably, the difference in power between each scene can be explained by him just trying to be dramatic. By that I mean he could just kill everyone by poking them in the forehead once, faster than they could even see, but he chooses to use the really silly, over-the-top techniques, either to intimidate his foes (for the record, how many Intimidate ranks would you guess he had?), and/or make it a story worth taking back to their boss, if any survive, or for villagers to spread among themselves, so they know there's this great hero who's trying to help them out.

For an idea of more stuff to keep in mind when statting Kenshiro, here's a clip of his big brother, Raoh. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx6w86jtwc8) The two are roughly equal, although Raoh may trade a point of Dex for a point of Str, and puts a bit more focus on ranged ki attacks, and he probably would have a mounted combat feat or two. But otherwise, they're pretty much even. Kenshiro knows all the techniques Raoh does (in fact, he knows more due to being the official successor to the style, while Raoh may never have been taught some of them, due to being expected to give up the style due to traditions), and when they fight, they're pretty much able to stand across from each other and just pound on one another about the same amount.

Also, I'm imagining part of a game session played with this theoretical Kenshiro build, with the office building part:
DM: "Alright, the building you knocked down is falling on you. What do you do?"
Player: "Just keep walking."
DM: "....okay..." *Rolls*
Player: "Am I knocked down?"
DM: "...No. "
Player: "Cool. I keep walking."
DM: "It's stuck on your head."
Player: "Fine, I'll smash it as I go through. I'm gonnamake a full attack using my face." *Roll*
DM: "....You smash the entire building in half with your face...."

Milskidasith
2010-07-22, 01:08 AM
The difference between beating up the tank and casually punching through walls is actually explainable in D&D, not that D&D is good at statting out people exactly anyway; punching through walls is a break DC, while a tank counts as a construct, so it doesn't have a break DC. But that's kind of a cop out.

Still, saying "He didn't defeat it because he wanted to be dramatic" feels a lot like a cop out, especially when your other examples still aren't anything I'd see as out of place for a 10-15 level PC. Killing commoners in one tap is what you can essentially do from level 1 onward (well, knock unconcious; killing them in one shot is not necessarily possible at level one, depending on the build).

Jackgar
2010-07-22, 01:14 AM
The difference between beating up the tank and casually punching through walls is actually explainable in D&D, not that D&D is good at statting out people exactly anyway; punching through walls is a break DC, while a tank counts as a construct, so it doesn't have a break DC. But that's kind of a cop out.

Still, saying "He didn't defeat it because he wanted to be dramatic" feels a lot like a cop out, especially when your other examples still aren't anything I'd see as out of place for a 10-15 level PC. Killing commoners in one tap is what you can essentially do from level 1 onward (well, knock unconcious; killing them in one shot is not necessarily possible at level one, depending on the build).

I don't deny it does feel like a cop-out, but in other situations, it seems like the only real explanation. He demonstrates repeatedly that yes, he could just touch a guy once and he'd die. It doesn't have to be a punch or anything. But he deliberately chooses cool/dramatic/torturous moves, either to scare any leftover enemies, or to make it feel like an evenworse punishment than it already is (which is more likely. He'd rather the wicked suffer before death). The tank thing...well again,that is a little different.Also, I didn't realize a tank counted as a construct for actual fighting purposes. I figured the hull itself counted as just a break DC, since it's piloted by people inside. I can kinda see the reasoning, but it's still kind of silly.