Dark Heresy - I Want To Like It But...

[Theo Hammond]

...i feel it keeps letting me down.

Income:
Is it really fair and balanced that one character, through fluke background role, can have nearly ten times the monthly income (for being a noble) as the poor devil playing a Guardsman?

Is it right that it seems so much easier to hit with ranged weaponry than in melee? Just range bonuses alone start with a very easy +30% (its a percentage based system btw), and a further +20% for full auto is v common. Thats a +50% to start with on a lot of shots where as melee is stuck at straight Weapon Skill% unless you're giving up your dodge/parry reaction. You can maybe scrape a +10% for ganing up on someone, or a again for a decent quality weapon (not for the guardsman though - can't afford it!), but thats about it. Doesn't seem quite balanced and it means that the game seems to drive players of most classes to just all become Mr Shooty mcShooter, despite what class they technically are.

Melee does appear to do a little more damage, but i'm not sure thats enough when your chance to hit is noticeably lower.

Finally, and we're finding this more and more as we go through the levels (have played 1st through 4th so far) - talens just seem almost randomly assigned throughout the classes. Why can a Psyker buy Quick Draw at level one, but an Assasin can't get it until 4th? This is just a very specific example but, overall, the combat talents (of which there are many) just seems totally scattered around the classes at random. There are non-requisite heavy talents appearing at low levels for some, higher for others, and others that appear early have got no chance of being bought due to the prerequisites being highly unlikely for that class.

Skill failure, A PC is more likely to fail a skill task at an average difficulty than pass it (Av base stat of 30, +10 for 'average' difficulty). This makes it very hard to come up with 'storyteller style' adventures because you simply can't assume that the party are going to make their skills tests. I'll admit this is a common failing to all %-based systems, but given the skew this system seems to have towards combat our games have, so far, seen relatively few skills even being bought (as what is the point if you're more likely to fail than pass?). Much better to buy that combat talent instead that you're gonna get much more use from and can come into play each round (instead of skill you fail and...well, thats that. No info for you. Full stop).

I reeeaaally want to like it but the more i think about it and try to craft something big and epic from it (i'm predominantly a WoD storyteller Ref when we're not D&Ding) the more i keep running into problems.

Anyone else have similar-ish problems? Made any houserules?

We're already looking at forcing an xp split - half has to be spent on skills, half on talents. And it seems like starting a new game is best done at 4th level, not first, in order to allow for characters that can actually do a few things (or afford an otherwise prohibitively expensive advance)

[senrath]

I dunno, I kinda like most of the things you mentioned. It really fits the theme of Warhammer 40k, that nothing ever gets better, and that each human is pretty much expendable.

[FelixG]

Well the system is designed generally so you are scared till your pants are soiled of everything untill roughly the 6th advance where you normaly have roughly 70% at succeeding anything you normally do if not higher....

If you want a more beginner friendly version of Dark Heresy try picking up rogue trader, that plops you into a characters shoes at 6k xp i think and goes up from there, lots of fun!

Also the monthly income rate is assuming they dont get gifts of Thrones for completing missions, and that they arnt picking up the weapons and gear they take off defeated things to sell later. Inquisitors in my games will give the players Thrones for weapons they bring back to bolster their own armories

[holywhippet]

...i feel it keeps letting me down.

Income:
Is it really fair and balanced that one character, through fluke background role, can have nearly ten times the monthly income (for being a noble) as the poor devil playing a Guardsman?



Fair? This is Warhammer 40K, don't expect the universe to cut you a fair deal. You can balance it out a bit by giving access to advanced gear to players with less funds.




Is it right that it seems so much easier to hit with ranged weaponry than in melee? Just range bonuses alone start with a very easy +30% (its a percentage based system btw), and a further +20% for full auto is v common. Thats a +50% to start with on a lot of shots where as melee is stuck at straight Weapon Skill% unless you're giving up your dodge/parry reaction. You can maybe scrape a +10% for ganing up on someone, or a again for a decent quality weapon (not for the guardsman though - can't afford it!), but thats about it. Doesn't seem quite balanced and it means that the game seems to drive players of most classes to just all become Mr Shooty mcShooter, despite what class they technically are.

Melee does appear to do a little more damage, but i'm not sure thats enough when your chance to hit is noticeably lower.


You'd expect ranged fire to be more accurate - trying to hit something that can dodge/block is generally harder. Keep in mind, full auto drains clips quickly while a sword never runs out of ammo.




Skill failure, A PC is more likely to fail a skill task at an average difficulty than pass it (Av base stat of 30, +10 for 'average' difficulty). This makes it very hard to come up with 'storyteller style' adventures because you simply can't assume that the party are going to make their skills tests. I'll admit this is a common failing to all %-based systems, but given the skew this system seems to have towards combat our games have, so far, seen relatively few skills even being bought (as what is the point if you're more likely to fail than pass?). Much better to buy that combat talent instead that you're gonna get much more use from and can come into play each round (instead of skill you fail and...well, thats that. No info for you. Full stop).


Failing the roll doesn't necessarily need to mean failing the task. Say you are trying to pick an electronic lock - you might still succeed but trigger and alarm if you fail your roll. Or you might just have to try again and lose a bit of time. Or it might just take them longer because they keep messing up.

For some routine tasks you can just assume that a person with the right training can get the job done without any rolls.

[Jyokage]

I have to agree with some of the posters above me. You start as an expendable cog in Dark Heresy. Through intelligence, dilligence, and the emperor's grace you eventually became a very shiny and useful cog. The power creep is pretty awesome in dark heresy. Just wait until your assassin can reliably hit a fly with a las gun, or your guardsman is walking around in what is almost power armor. You are supposed to be scared witless by advanced computers at level one, let alone some creep with a las rifle. In time you will fear the truly scary stuff. (Like the stuff that instantly drops your insanity to, "I soil myself and gurgle" levels.)

A Possibly Helpful Ramble
Basically, you are supposed to start out pretty powerless in Dark Heresy. In time your characters won't be walking the knifepoint, but by then, their enemies will be that much stronger. Some things to note though:
- Your characters will never be able to afford gear if they are not supplementing their income through clever loot habits and sidejobs. Think of them like the us military, we make enough money to live comfortably, and everything else is provided for us. (Hint- basic and even specialized weaponry and armor)
-It is useful for characters to think ahead for weapon skills and talents. (Like Really far ahead)
-I don't know if this can be reiterated enough...Characters in dark heresy will always be under the shadow of failure. They will always be close to immense danger, and unlike dnd or some other rpgs, they have a very real chance of dying from that danger, PERMANENTLY. Think fast, and don't do anything stupid, or you get hit by a Rocket MachineGun...You get the picture.

[Prodan]

...i feel it keeps letting me down.

In the GRIM DARKNESS of the far future, there is no balance!

[Kaun]

DH has to be played like a low power version of shadow run in my mind.

You have to stack the odds in your favour to get anything done.


And with regards to melee vs ranged, ranged is always going to be a more viable choice for a stright up fight.

Where melee comes into its own is;

When you are a good melee fighter with a quality weapon fighting some one whos not with out. (this happens a fair bit in a world full of gun bunnies.)

When you use stealth and planing to get your self into an advantagous position forcing marksmen to fight you close up.

When ammo is running low.


I have seen a good melee assassin rcause havoc when played right but then again he never charged head long into fights unless the odds were well on our side.

[Talkkno]

Dark Hersey suffers WHFRP IN SPACE! problems, Rogue Trader is much more polished version of the systems and hopefully Deathwatch as well.

[thompur]

Dark Hersey suffers WHFRP IN SPACE! problems, Rogue Trader is much more polished version of the systems and hopefully Deathwatch as well.

I'll third the Rogue Trader recommendation. It's a lot more fun.

You should listen to Talkkno. You can tell by his icon that he is a gentleman of superior breeding and taste.;-)

[Rumpus]

Read all the rulebooks, haven't actually played the game yet, but:

The +50% to hit for close range full-auto does seem a little unbalanced, but I'm not sure it's unrealistic. Depending on how close you are, a truly full-auto weapon can be a can't miss kinda thing. Of course, at anything other than point-blank range, it's a waste of ammo.

I'd probably house rule that full auto without a bipod/tripod has a penalty to hit instead of a bonus at anything further than short range (maybe -30% at medium and -60% at long), but with an AoE damage and forcing opponents in the fire cone to make a WP test opposed by the firer's BS or be suppressed (penalty to all rolls, can only move away from the firer or into available cover).

Besides, other than certain insane assassin cults, when does a non-Marine human ever use a sword in 40k? Once you have guns, nobody really wants to close to melee range anymore. If your players want to grab a chainsword and rush the mob of lasgun-armed cultists, well, he'll get what he deserves (and you may be playing the wrong game).

And the noble having more money is just a fact of life. Good gear is nice, but this game isn't really gear-dependent. If you feel strongly about balancing this out, make him pay double for everything (it has to be shiny to "keep up appearances"), or play up how he just CANNOT fit in anywhere in the underhive. Finally, most of the really expensive gear (ie power armor, heavy bolters) is extremely conspicuous, and would be totally inappropriate anywhere other than a warzone. Players walking around with heavy artillery are going to find it impossible to investigate incognito, and are certain to receive a hostile reaction from pretty much everybody, particularly the Arbites.

[Prodan]

Besides, other than certain insane assassin cults, when does a non-Marine human ever use a sword in 40k?

CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!

[Wings of Peace]

Melee does appear to do a little more damage, but i'm not sure thats enough when your chance to hit is noticeably lower.

My Powerfist wielding Techpriest with Muscle Grafts would like to have a word with you.

[Lycan 01]

Income: Still working on that problem myself, but I've realized that looking weapons from fallen enemies and a mission stipend from the patron Inquisitor REALLY makes a difference.


It is easier to hit an enemy at range than in melee. But melee does a whole lot more damage, since you also add your Strength Bonus to the damage. Ranged attacks can also be penalized by obstructions, range, injuries, moving targets, et cetera. Melee attacks also get boosts from talents like Hatred and upgrades like Best Quality on the weapon.

For example, lets compare a guy with a bolt pistol to a guy with a chainsword.

Best Bolt Pistol: Base chance to hit + 10 for aiming + 10 for laser sight + 10 to 30 for range - X for distance - Y for obstructions or hazards - Z for moving target or shooter = ?? chance to hit. Roll 1d10+5 damage twice, and pick the best result.

Best Chainsword: Base chance to hit + 10 for best + 10 for Hatred (X) + 10 for aiming + 10 if you have an ally helping you = ?? chance to hit. Roll 1d10+3+ Strength Bonus twice, picking the best result.

Oh, and +10 to Parry with the chainsword since its balanced, and you can still Dodge.

I'd rather be shot at. :smalleek:

(In a game I ran a few days ago, the Battle Sister with an Eviscerator got as many kills as the rest of her gun-toting team combined. And she only had a 35% chance of success, and has not yet taken any of the Hatred Talents. On a good day, she'll have a 50-80 percent chance of doing 1d10+10+3 Tearing damage. The team lets her handle the Big Bads. :smallamused:)

Player wants a skill or talent early, or that they normally can't have? Its called an Elite Advance. I've offered a few to my players, but only under special circumstances and at a hefty XP cost. You're the GM, your call.

Here's a hint for skill checks. A roleplaying bonus. One of my players tried to interogate a heretic, but rather than just saying "I interogate him" and rolling the dice, he described how he hit him across the face with his baton, started choking him with it, then growled questions in the guy's ear. Then he rolled his check. I gave him bonus points for roleplaying, and he got answers to almost every question he asked. Questions he didn't get an answer to, he beat the guy up some more then rolled again. There are always circumstance bonuses to consider, as well. A test may already be Average, or have a small bonus. But how much time do they have to spare? How much stress are they under? What state of mind are they in? Sure, climbing down a rickety rope ladder may be an average Agility test. But if they can take their time, are fully focused on the task at hand, and are in a good mood, go ahead and give 'em plenty of bonus points. But if its raining, they're being shot at, and their best friend just died, pile on the penalties, baby. :smallamused:


How much XP are you giving them per session? :smallconfused: I average 3-400 XP, due to roleplaying, skill challenges, combat, "WTFTHATWASAWESOME" moments, and GM charity. But for completing a mission, I usually take on an extra few hundred XP for everyone, since they succeeded, survived, and deserve a treat for working together as a team to defeat the enemies of the Imperium with flying colors. :smallsmile:

[Wings of Peace]

Lets play with numbers, and if I seem fixated on Power Fist... well... that's because I like Power Fists, I admit it.

Lets assume a low level character first, and lets say they have a 40 in strength, pretty low. They focus on gaining a Power Fist and Muscle Grafts. First, the Muscle Grafts turn that 40 into an 80, Power Fist double this again so that we're now at 160 thus dealing 2d10 +16 damage.

A look at high levels now. Lets say for kicks we're wielding an Ascended Techpriest who is wearing Dragonscale and has the Exemplar of Metal Trait. These don't affect his damage but they give us an idea of his defensive abilities.

This Ascended Techpriest is of the militant branch and so has focused primary in stength. With traits and such lets say he's got a 70, more than reasonable if it's his stat of focus, he could probably even go higher with Power Armor but we're being conservative. That 70 is now double to 140, Powerfist doubles this again for damage to 240 for +24 damage in melee, at REALLY high levels our Techpriest takes Unnatural Strength which stacks with the bonus granted by his Muscle Grafts turning it into a X3 bonus allowing him a total 42 bonus damage.

As we can see, even early on, if a character really wants to they can achieve pretty reasonable melee damage, if it means a slightly smaller chance to hit well... at least it's the hit that will count.

It's doable without a Techpriest as well, in theory most classes can pull it off. I just prefer Techpriest because they get a host of defensive traits and Mechadendrite use.

Edit: Upon reflection my damage estimates were marginally wrong, Power Fists does 2d10 not 1d10. They also have 8 penetration. :smallsmile:

[Lycan 01]

CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!

Commissar Gaunt ain't that bad with a Power Sword, either.


My Powerfist wielding Techpriest with Muscle Grafts would like to have a word with you.


My Commissar has a Power Fist, Swift Attack, Blademaster, WS 40-ish, STR 50. He makes two attacks per round with a 1-in-2 chance of hitting, gets to reroll one of those attacks if it misses, and does 2d10+10 damage on each hit. I think he'd also like to join this discussion. :smallwink:

[Wings of Peace]

Commissar Gaunt ain't that bad with a Power Sword, either.




My Commissar has a Power Fist, Swift Attack, Blademaster, WS 40-ish, STR 50. He makes two attacks per round with a 1-in-2 chance of hitting, gets to reroll one of those attacks if it misses, and does 2d10+10 damage on each hit. I think he'd also like to join this discussion. :smallwink:

I think we can both at least agree: Power Fists

[Yukitsu]

I'd ask for a fist bump, but it might take my arm off.

Melee on the tabletop is pretty much viable for specialists who go pretty much exclusively for it. Everyone else is better off shooting, but ultimately, shooting only goes so far, while a fist can go on forever. I think that's why the gun has so many baseline bonuses, while melee only works if you specialize.

[Lycan 01]

Oh wait, forgot to add that Best Quality adds 1 extra point of damage to melee weapons, as well as +10 to attacks and parries.

So yeah. If you want the real "Ow" factor with melee, I'd say a Battle Sister with WS 40, S 50, and the right talents with a Best Quality Power Fist. I mean, if she's got Hatred against Psykers, Mutants, Heretics, and lets say Xenos (Eldar) as an Elite Advance from the GM, then she'd have +30 against a mutant cult magos or +30 against an Eldar Warlock. Add +10 for Best Quality, +20 for All Out Attack, +10 if she's attacking from the high ground, and +10 if she's got an ally helping with the attack, she's automatically got over 100% chance of success. Now lets say she has Swift Attack, and Blademaster. That's two 100% chance attacks, a free reroll, and then 2d10+10+1. Twice. With a Pen value of 8. Can you say Overkill? :smalleek:

In the grim dark future of the 41st Millenium, there is only Math. :smallcool:




So how do other players/GMs handle the money issue? :smallconfused: I'd like to give my players a bit more spending money. I mean, the get 80 Thrones on average as their monthly income, which barely even covers ammo for some of them. I mean, that's not even a full clip for a bolt pistol. :smalleek: Some of them scrounged up guns and gear from a few dead heretics, and made some extra spending money. But some of them really need new gear - I'm talking basics like Vox sets, pict-recorders, flak armor, and ammunition.

So should I boost their monthly income, give them a stipend from their patron Inquisitor, reward them in cold hard Gelt for the mission they accomplished this week, or just provide a few small side missions and fetch quests in the next scenario that pay in pocket thrones? Or should their Inquisitor hand out a few free items they might like, like a Flak Greatcoat, a Chain-dagger, some grenades, an Interogation kit, some Comm-links, et cetera...? :smallconfused:




(edit: Whoops, put the hypothetical WS at 400 instead of 40. That would be scary...)

[senrath]

That's two 100% chance attacks, a free reroll, and then 2d10+10+1. Twice. With a Pen value of 8. Can you say Overkill? :smalleek:


Slight nitpick, but doesn't success cap at 99%?

[Lycan 01]

Yes, in most cases you still fail or Fumble on a roll of 100. So you'd still roll to make sure you don't punch your own face off, I suppose. :smalltongue:

[Ranos]

...i feel it keeps letting me down.

Income:
Is it really fair and balanced that one character, through fluke background role, can have nearly ten times the monthly income (for being a noble) as the poor devil playing a Guardsman?

You're actually rolling for backgrounds ? Don't.



Is it right that it seems so much easier to hit with ranged weaponry than in melee?

Melee specialists can be incredible. Otherwise, yep, the average acolyte is better off with a gun than a sword. Seems about right.




Finally, and we're finding this more and more as we go through the levels (have played 1st through 4th so far) - talens just seem almost randomly assigned throughout the classes.

Agreed, absolutely. Do note that there's a rule for elite advances though. Use it.



Skill failure, A PC is more likely to fail a skill task at an average difficulty than pass it.

The whole game is about stacking modifier. Average tasks should be more 10%/20% than 0%. And then you stack all your modifiers on top of that. Not saying it's a very good system, very hard to keep track of all the little pluses, but a specialist character will rarely fail on anything other than a hard+ difficulty.

Also, do you have a psyker ? Because since you're entering rank4, you're gonna start seeing the psyker problem very soon, as the game starts to shift into God and his trusty sidekicks. Good luck with that :smallamused:

[Draxar]

Lets assume a low level character first, and lets say they have a 40 in strength, pretty low. They focus on gaining a Power Fist and Muscle Grafts. First, the Muscle Grafts turn that 40 into an 80, Power Fist double this again so that we're now at 160 thus dealing 2d10 +16 damage.

I wouldn't see any character with Power Fist, and Muscle Grafts as "low level". I would consider 40 strength somewhat high, if not incredibly so. I have a 6000 xp character, he has one stat at 49, that's his highest.


...i feel it keeps letting me down.

Income:
Is it really fair and balanced that one character, through fluke background role, can have nearly ten times the monthly income (for being a noble) as the poor devil playing a Guardsman?

No. I think Dark Heresy needs a requisition system – it's present in Rogue Trader, Ascension and (as I understand it) Deathwatch. It is a major stumbling block in the system. From a simulationist point of view, it's not so bad, as the prices and wages are probably about right for that. But from a game point of view, it's a real problem.


Is it right that it seems so much easier to hit with ranged weaponry than in melee? Just range bonuses alone start with a very easy +30% (its a percentage based system btw), and a further +20% for full auto is v common. Thats a +50% to start with on a lot of shots where as melee is stuck at straight Weapon Skill% unless you're giving up your dodge/parry reaction. You can maybe scrape a +10% for ganing up on someone, or a again for a decent quality weapon (not for the guardsman though - can't afford it!), but thats about it. Doesn't seem quite balanced and it means that the game seems to drive players of most classes to just all become Mr Shooty mcShooter, despite what class they technically are.

Melee does appear to do a little more damage, but i'm not sure thats enough when your chance to hit is noticeably lower.

Melee has a lot of flexibility – you can disarm people, you can knock them out (with a talent), you can gain a bonus to your dodge and parry, you can make your next melee strike undodgeable and unparryble. You can also get more attacks, if not neccessarily hits – four attacks a round.


Finally, and we're finding this more and more as we go through the levels (have played 1st through 4th so far) - talens just seem almost randomly assigned throughout the classes. Why can a Psyker buy Quick Draw at level one, but an Assasin can't get it until 4th? This is just a very specific example but, overall, the combat talents (of which there are many) just seems totally scattered around the classes at random. There are non-requisite heavy talents appearing at low levels for some, higher for others, and others that appear early have got no chance of being bought due to the prerequisites being highly unlikely for that class.

May want to hunt down the errata, some stuff got changed.



Skill failure, A PC is more likely to fail a skill task at an average difficulty than pass it (Av base stat of 30, +10 for 'average' difficulty). This makes it very hard to come up with 'storyteller style' adventures because you simply can't assume that the party are going to make their skills tests. I'll admit this is a common failing to all %-based systems, but given the skew this system seems to have towards combat our games have, so far, seen relatively few skills even being bought (as what is the point if you're more likely to fail than pass?). Much better to buy that combat talent instead that you're gonna get much more use from and can come into play each round (instead of skill you fail and...well, thats that. No info for you. Full stop).

Yes and no. I agree with you, it means at the baseline you're unlikely to succeed. But I'd see even 'average' difficulty as something that's not so easy unless you're quite skilled – to put it in weapons terms, an average task is shooting somone 45 metres away after you've jogged a way in the same turn, or someone up to 170 metres away after taking a moment to aim at them. These are fairly long distances for accuracy.


I reeeaaally want to like it but the more i think about it and try to craft something big and epic from it (i'm predominantly a WoD storyteller Ref when we're not D&Ding) the more i keep running into problems.

Anyone else have similar-ish problems? Made any houserules?

Some similar, as I've said. No houserules yet, the ST has said he's keeping an eye on the equipment thing and we can get some stuff at the right moments.


We're already looking at forcing an xp split - half has to be spent on skills, half on talents. And it seems like starting a new game is best done at 4th level, not first, in order to allow for characters that can actually do a few things (or afford an otherwise prohibitively expensive advance)

Seems a bit arbitrary and I don't see it solving much.


I dunno, I kinda like most of the things you mentioned. It really fits the theme of Warhammer 40k, that nothing ever gets better, and that each human is pretty much expendable.

That's true at rank 1. By rank 5-6 it's much less true. My noble is casually popping off paired headshots at people 50 metres away with his twin bolt pistols. You become better and less expendable, but equipment becomes something of a hardcap on power, and one origin type gets massively much more cash, and thus to a fair extent, power.


Well the system is designed generally so you are scared till your pants are soiled of everything untill roughly the 6th advance where you normaly have roughly 70% at succeeding anything you normally do if not higher....

Not finding that at the moment. In specific things where we can stack our bonuses, sure. In general things, even if they're associated with our niche, 40-60% is generally what we have.


If you want a more beginner friendly version of Dark Heresy try picking up rogue trader, that plops you into a characters shoes at 6k xp i think and goes up from there, lots of fun!

This I definitely agree with.


Also the monthly income rate is assuming they dont get gifts of Thrones for completing missions, and that they arnt picking up the weapons and gear they take off defeated things to sell later. Inquisitors in my games will give the players Thrones for weapons they bring back to bolster their own armories

Problem is, it needs to give some sort of system, suggested wealth by level, whatever. Rogue Trader and Ascension have useful ways to get equipment.

A top ranked (pre-ascension) Imperial Guard Commander can afford to fire the bolt pistol his grateful men bought for him... about five times a month, on his salary.



And the noble having more money is just a fact of life. Good gear is nice, but this game isn't really gear-dependent. If you feel strongly about balancing this out, make him pay double for everything (it has to be shiny to "keep up appearances"), or play up how he just CANNOT fit in anywhere in the underhive. Finally, most of the really expensive gear (ie power armor, heavy bolters) is extremely conspicuous, and would be totally inappropriate anywhere other than a warzone. Players walking around with heavy artillery are going to find it impossible to investigate incognito, and are certain to receive a hostile reaction from pretty much everybody, particularly the Arbites.

Problem is, even with the need for subtlety taken into account, the advantages the Noble has place it as by far and away the best choice of origin, always.

[senrath]

I wouldn't see any character with Power Fist, and Muscle Grafts as "low level". I would consider 40 strength somewhat high, if not incredibly so. I have a 6000 xp character, he has one stat at 49, that's his highest.

Really? I have a 1700 xp character with a 50 in willpower. And he still has two more rank ups he can purchase.



That's true at rank 1. By rank 5-6 it's much less true. My noble is casually popping off paired headshots at people 50 metres away with his twin bolt pistols. You become better and less expendable, but equipment becomes something of a hardcap on power, and one origin type gets massively much more cash, and thus to a fair extent, power.


While you become stronger and less expendable at higher ranks, that doesn't mean you ever stop being expendable. The emperor himself is the only human that is truly not expendable.

[Ranos]

Problem is, even with the need for subtlety taken into account, the advantages the Noble has place it as by far and away the best choice of origin, always.
Nah, you're exaggerating. There are other ways to make money, while origins can give you things you'll never get through a full purse. I'd rather get fate points, or psychic powers, or nice juicy bonuses to my specialty than a bit more money. Especially if I'm already a cleric or something.

[Lycan 01]

Nobles also get an Enemy. And in Dark Heresy, you've got to look over your shoulder enough as it is. :smalltongue:


A good storyteller will know how to balance things out. Avaliability can deal with the pesky Noble who wants to buy everything. And the patron Inquisitor may favor another Acolyte, even though they don't get as much accomplished, simply because the Nobleborn Acolyte has a bigger advantage and lets their gear do most of the work for them.

[a_humble_lich]

The other really nice thing about melee, is often the horrible things which want to rip your face off will want to do it in melee. Being able to defend yourself in that situation is helpful. At least when we played, if you were in melee, you couldn't use any ranged weapon that wasn't a pistol--so Shooter McShootie better hope he can take down that genestealer before it closes with him.

[senrath]

I'm pretty sure that's a houserule.

[Ranos]

I'm pretty sure that's a houserule.

Nah, he's right. Only way to shoot in melee is with a pistol, and even then, you get a malus. But that's why you have teammates, so they can keep shooting at the thing while you run the boop away.

Or use pinning, or cover, or...

[Lycan 01]

Nope. You can't use ranged weapons bigger than a pistol when locked in melee combat. Believe me, I've tried, and the GM shot it down. I forget the exact page and whatnot, but I've read it and know its a real rule in the core book.


So yeah, if a Genestealer gets too close, that Bolter becomes a liability instead of an advantage. Unless it has a Melee Attachment. Then you can keep on rockin' without much trouble. :smallamused:

[senrath]

I guess it makes sense. I've just never run across it because my two characters have been a melee specialist, and a psyker who hasn't actually gotten into combat yet.

[Grifthin]

My guardsmen is at 3200XP currently. Weaponry I have:

Lasgun - my bread and butter, so damn reliable and hasn't failed once.
Laspistol - backup weapon as well as my little trump card.
5x Knives - 2 of them are mono edged, mostly used for throwing and interrogation.
5x Frag grenades - cause sometimes heretics come by the dozen :smallwink:

First session I lost a leg - After a long time it got replaced by a bionic one (feral ass backwards world with virtually no tech, had to wait for mision completion). Now I'm paying the inquisition off - I get half my income. That's like 30 thrones a month. Virtually nothing. HOWEVER - I can charge my gun from almost any power source - so no money spent on ammo. Selling illegal gains of our enemies, looting etc helps pay our way.

Our assassin does WAY more damage than me in melee with his great weapon.
Our Psyker makes heads asplode on a regular basis.
Our scum rapes people with his shotgun.

Me ? I never stop fighting, I never run out of ammo, I don't run away. My character has blown his way out of things stomach, had limbs ripped off and had to bludgeon people to death with his rifle when they to close to shoot at. When everyone else is panicking and scavenging for weapons after getting ambushed in the underhive he holds the line. Dark heresy isn't fair. But with massive testicular fortitude, clever tactics and insane bravery and faith in the emperor you might survive. maby.

[Zen Master]

To my mind, income in DH represents the money get to pay for food and drink, lodging and so on. It means the priest lives more comfortably than the guardsman.

None of them actually go out and spend that money on weapons and equipment.

The autofire rules were errata'd - but I've not actually read the errata, so I don't know what changed. But autofire - to me - is a gameplay hint: You will use cover and movement and smoke grenades to your advantage, or you will die horrible in a spray of hot stubber fire, grunt!

Melee is wonderful. Any guy with a basic weapon (without a melee attachment, mind) is just asking to be shorn in half. Especially if he has found himself a nice piece of cover to lie down behind, on account of your friend the guardsman laying down suppressive fire with the heavy stubber.

[Theo Hammond]

Cheers fellas, all good food for thought.

I've noted that melee improves a lot as you go through the levels, gaining more attacks and options (and a shooter is right stuffed if they get stuck in melee). So for those PCs looking to follow that route i can reassure them thats its more about the long-build than the instant rewards that the shootists get (we had a sniper at lvl 1 and i think that seeing a chappy who always got his max +60% on each shot was a little galling for the melee-ers, especially with the errated rules for an accurate weapon).

Income is alright at its varying levels so long as, yes, your party go with that and accept that as part of the game world etc (and everyone, apart from the poor guardsman, has it fairly easy to purchase a trade skill that will up their £s). Only the noble seems a little harsh (and random rolling backgrounds still gives fair odds that you'll have one in your party) with his whopping wage pouring in, but i think in future games if there is one then it'll be with him/her knowing that he is essentially responsible (to some degree) for being the 'party outfitter' (so he would do well buying bargain/haggle and inquiry).

Its becoming more and more apparent through play that, and you're all not wrong here, at the lower levels you really are know-nothing plebs. They're on the fringes of 4th level now and, only now are they starting to feel handy (and decent equipment talents are starting to dribble in). I think future games, now we know the rules (we've used pre-written Fantasy Flight missions only so far whilst we get to know it), will start with PCs at 4th level (i have heard of, but not yet witness, an issue with psykers at higher levels though). Seeding in extra money or equipment, now we're on self-written missions, looks like something i need to start thinking about. Fortunately it doesn't look like power creep is too worrying in this game as they is always something tough just around the corner (nearly had a TPK just from the end baddy in the main rulebook adventure vs 5 x 3rd level PCs).

[Lycan 01]

You almost had a TPK from the end boss? At level 3? Shoot, four level 2 characters had a field day with him. Took them over an hour to realize his weakness, but even when he landed hits they were able to shrug them off. Look closely - his attacks are primitive, and thus they double their armor resistance. Almost everyone had good armor + a decent Toughness Bonus, so he only succeeded in dropping 1 character to 0 Wounds. Kind of a let down, actually. :smallsigh:

[Theo Hammond]

Ah, yes, i did forget to state that i made one sole change to the final encounter (given how easy the PCs had had it all so far) - i took away the Primitive quality. Fight seemed far too low in threat with it, without it...yeah, there was some hurty.

Of course it didn't help that the party totally forgot about the Big Bad's vulnerability (that the adventure makes it crazy hard to figure out - don't get enough degrees of success reading that book and you're stiffed) so they had to beat him down the hard way, which took 2hrs and a burned Fate Point. In the end it was a great weapon + accurate sniper that did it, with a final dribble of hurt from the psyker that, by pure chance, had a critical effect that exactly destroyed the Big Bad's vulnerables! (though he was dead anyway just from the damage).

[Zen Master]

Ah, yes, i did forget to state that i made one sole change to the final encounter (given how easy the PCs had had it all so far) - i took away the Primitive quality. Fight seemed far too low in threat with it, without it...yeah, there was some hurty.

Of course it didn't help that the party totally forgot about the Big Bad's vulnerability (that the adventure makes it crazy hard to figure out - don't get enough degrees of success reading that book and you're stiffed) so they had to beat him down the hard way, which took 2hrs and a burned Fate Point. In the end it was a great weapon + accurate sniper that did it, with a final dribble of hurt from the psyker that, by pure chance, had a critical effect that exactly destroyed the Big Bad's vulnerables! (though he was dead anyway just from the damage).

Hm - I did the same adventure/encounter, without altering it. The demon - I forget the name, plaguebearer? - was easily strong enough to hurt my players. They had, at best, flak+toughness 4, meaning any roll of 10+ damage would hurt them.

I did spice the encounter up in other ways tho. Toxic fumes made for low visibility, areas of the floor were deep puddles of acid (enough to erode boots, then feet), and the plaguebearer could hurl barrels of toxic goo at them.

On the other hand, I think I did away with his vulnerabilities - instead adding some story about how it was really the Mining Operations Overseer who had been transformed by Nurgle.

Heh - just previous to the final encounter, I had the players meet the remaining cultists in the mine. One of them, crazed and mindless of his own survival, had an ancient, much-repaired and jury-rigged plasmagun. It was an amusing bit of randomness - the plasmagun was Unreliable, fired by a cultist without the needed basic weapon training, so it wasn't a great risk to the players. However, the players had to decide if they dared use it against the BBEG. They didn't =)

Oh and btw the cultist died when it misfired and fried him.

[Theo Hammond]

The adventure in the main book is definitely ripe for re-writing (once you know what you're doing with the rules) and, in hindsight, i should have done a lot more scribbling (which i probably would have done were i not polishing off my 7yr D&D campaign at the same time).

Far too little interaction with the plot and way too much time spent listening to the 'read this to the players' sections (FMVs as one player calls them!). Until quite near the end the party are mostly bystanders who are sometimes allowed to talk to people.

Am looking forward to playing it now under another Ref for an adventure whilst i write my own stuff for it. Soooo much inspiration out there.

[Aroka]

None of them actually go out and spend that money on weapons and equipment.

It's completely incomprehensible to me that they would or even could. Where are they finding bolters and lasguns and whatnot to buy? Surely they just get issued equipment from Imperial/Inquisition armories before deployment or at opportunity during assignment, and scavenge off fallen enemies if they actually run out during a fight?

[Ranos]

It's completely incomprehensible to me that they would or even could. Where are they finding bolters and lasguns and whatnot to buy? Surely they just get issued equipment from Imperial/Inquisition armories before deployment or at opportunity during assignment, and scavenge off fallen enemies if they actually run out during a fight?

They're acolytes. They have connections.

[Psyx]

...i feel it keeps letting me down.

Income:

Why are you using these idiotic rules. The characters work for the Inquisition. They get what they're given. They don't wait 'til payday and wander down the bank.

My PCs get to make 'wish lists' of gear and requests for 'flash money' and the like. If they do something really cool, they might get something special for it. My PCs ahve never been gun shopping, and only need to keep track of money in loose terms. Besides: The prices are really out of whack. The whole equipment list price thing went straight out the window for me.



Is it right that it seems so much easier to hit with ranged weaponry than in melee? Just range bonuses alone start with a very easy +30% (its a percentage based system btw), and a further +20% for full auto is v common.


Yes. It's fair. Although, I don't use the close range positive modifiers. I also don't allow reflexive dodges against bullets, because it's utter nonsense - unless it's to avoid suppressive fire.



Melee does appear to do a little more damage, but i'm not sure thats enough when your chance to hit is noticeably lower.


Melee rocks. My group are finding that it's better than shooting. Most horrible critters are melee fighters, and characters lacking skill in it get turned to pate. There's also a huge number of talents available for melee fighters, which makes them obscene. And it's quieter, doesn't need reloading, etc.



Finally, and we're finding this more and more as we go through the levels (have played 1st through 4th so far) - talens just seem almost randomly assigned throughout the classes. Why can a Psyker buy Quick Draw at level one, but an Assasin can't get it until 4th? This is just a very specific example but, overall, the combat talents (of which there are many) just seems totally scattered around the classes at random.


Yes. I agree. Although please download the errata and give those a look, as they help (a bit).



Skill failure, A PC is more likely to fail a skill task at an average difficulty than pass it (Av base stat of 30, +10 for 'average' difficulty). This makes it very hard to come up with 'storyteller style' adventures because you simply can't assume that the party are going to make their skills tests.


Get-out clause 1: Use modifiers on difficulties.

Get-out clause 2: In old WFRP stats could go up to +40, rather than +20. You can replicate this in DH by allowing PCs to buy TWO stat advances (for a +10), each at the cost for the first advance, then the next two for the cost of the second advance each, etc. So for twice the XP spend, players can advance their stats twice as far.



Anyone else have similar-ish problems? Made any houserules?


Psykers are grim, in that they are very powerful, but it goes wild far too often. I ripped out the rules and used a version of the WFRP rules instead, which has three failure tables and less horrible spells. It works well.

I also did away with modifiers for multiple foes in melee and for close range, just to simplify the list of things to be remembered. As I said: The economy system went out the window. Truth be told, I use a requisition point system that has a lot to do with old RT points values, and 'shiny' equipment is found, commissioned, or otherwise hard to come by.

Tech-Priests are grim, and really need nerfing a bit.

I would still start the game at low level, and just use lots of positive modifiers. Otherwise - for a long campaign - players will reach high XP too quickly, which makes the maths harder and challenges greater. Don't make your life too hard!

[Psyx]

Inquisitors in my games will give the players Thrones for weapons they bring back to bolster their own armories.

The Inquisitor in my game would snort derisively if the players bought back an arm-full of lasguns for him. But then he does have a cruiser...

My lot tend to leave any loot that's not tainted and needs destroying or an upgrade for them, and I rather like it. Acolytes should not be wasting time stripping bodies for loot. It's not that kind of game.

I seriously don't see any problem with the difficulties in DH. This isn't D&D, this is far more CoC. things should be difficult, scary and dangerous. That's why there's an IP and CP system.

I wasn't even aware that the close range modifier was +30%. That's insane. Like I say: Short range modifiers don't get used in my game.

I am pretty generous with Elite Advances for skills, so long as it's done in downtime, and there's some good blag goes into it. I do not make Elite Advances generally available with talents, because this 'robs' from other classes. If everyone got Mighty Shot (or whatever), it detracts from those classes that have it. There's no point having character classes if you are going to ride roughshod over them too much.

Oh yeah: another houserule. Firearms (apart from plasma) only check for malfunction on a 00. Seriously: A firearm that jams 5% of the time isn't a gun: It's a complete frikkin waste of time.

[Aroka]

Acolytes should not be wasting time stripping bodies for loot. It's not that kind of game.

I have very much the same impression; this is slightly funny, though, because WFRP is the kind of game where you even steal the boots off your dead enemies, because all you have is a pole with 1D10 dead rats and a small but vicious dog.

[FelixG]

In short....

Most of your complaints can be solved by switching to Rogue Trader :D

Income is converted to a roll, you roll based on your profit factor to see if you get an item or not, no dealing with silly ammounts of money.

You start out with better stats for the most part so you can be more awesome from the get go and fight some real fun challenges and situations without splatting right on your face.

My current Guardsman (an Arch-Militant built like a Deathkorps member) currently uses a grox whip with the mono upgrade to great effect over his pidly bolt pistols (starting equipment by the way! <3)

you start at roughly where level 6 picks up in DH so...yah the levels are kooler and you dont have to deal with all the book keeping of getting that high.

Psykers are more balanced in Rogue trader as well and all of the talents and skills mesh more naturally with the archetypes too.

Oh and another important thing to mention: The players are their own bosses with their own STARSHIPS, so its easier to move around and get involved in fun stories than just following what some grumpy inquisitor tells them to do.

[Theo Hammond]

Players have been asking about vehicles and starships (namely "so what is the point of this skill called 'Pilot'?) so maybe it might be good to see if they fancy having a run at Rogue Trader. Certainly the book looked a little more interesting and open, but starting with Dark Heresy seemed like the best way to come into the setting (i know GW inside out but not so much true of the players) and particularly the rules-set.

The only part i wasn't sure on at my first read-through was how to make sure that Profit Factor is properly ingrained and at the right degree of prominence. I don't want things to get too bogged down with quibbling over minutae of each and every deal, but at the same time it definitely shouldn't be just glossed over.

[Ranos]

Vehicles haven't been integrated into Rogue Trader either, actually, only starships. They released free rules online though, you'll find them here (http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/component/docman/doc_download/14-dark-heresy-apocrypha-vehicles).

[Psyx]

In short....
Most of your complaints can be solved by switching to Rogue Trader :D


RT is about having vast assets, crowbaring the gold teeth out of your victims, and rolling up in power armour to blow things up with huge guns.

DH is about horror, conspiracies, never knowing who to trust, and being out-gunned against horrible horrible enemies.

They are two different genres, set in the same game universe. It's like comparing 2300 to CoC.



i have heard of, but not yet witness, an issue with psykers at higher levels though

They will rip your monsters apart and dump down the throat of your plot. Then they will die due to warp incursion.

[Psyx]

Also: How the heck are characters finding spare time to practice a trade skill and make cash?! What kind of Inquisitor is fine with his guys goofing off for a week to bind books? Those xenos aren't going to kill themselves, y'know...

[Ranos]

Also: How the heck are characters finding spare time to practice a trade skill and make cash?! What kind of Inquisitor is fine with his guys goofing off for a week to bind books? Those xenos aren't going to kill themselves, y'know...
Acolytes are not kicking ass 24/24. They have cover IDs, public lives... There can be months between two assignments. So yeah, they've got plenty of time to make cash with trade skills.

[Psyx]

I guess it's campaign dependant. My guys only sit idle when they're on a ship.

[Ranos]

Then, I guess have them work their trade in the ship ? Ships in 40K are pretty much big floating cities anyway.

[FelixG]

RT is about having vast assets, crowbaring the gold teeth out of your victims, and rolling up in power armour to blow things up with huge guns.

DH is about horror, conspiracies, never knowing who to trust, and being out-gunned against horrible horrible enemies.

They are two different genres, set in the same game universe. It's like comparing 2300 to CoC.

Thats not entirely true.

It all depends on your GM. Heck, to get our ship in the game i am playing in right now the ship we have was infested with Gene stealers and we had to fight and sneak our way through em to the armatorium arm the ships last remaining virus bomb then rush franticly to the engine chapel and seal it off completely before the thing detonated to make sure we didnt get gooed.

And nothing is more Horror than a warp incursion on a cruiser going through the warp ~.^ And as for intrique, right now my Explorator was just introduced to Xenos who seem to know what the future holds for him, so he is geting to wrestle with his loyalties to the imperium and the temptation of forbidden knowledge...

So as i said, it all depends on the GM, both games can be about anything, especially as they are the same rule set, RT is just more refined than DH.

[Theo Hammond]

I'm fairly certain i'm going to stick with running DH for now but this thread has already made me amend plans for the future. Before the next adventure (which isn't run by me) i think they'll each get a simple missive from their Inquisitor's quartermaster asking them to "Please submit your requisitions order" etc. Deliberately lacking in guidelines and then i'll look over them and by the next adventure (back to me running again) i should be able to give them some goodies.

Might start to think about giving them a permanent HQ as well, rather than having them floating around between adventures. This means i can also turn the obtaining of it in an adventure in itself, and can use it in future plots ("So its been a couple of weeks since your last mission and-oh, the lights have all just gone out.").

I really like the ship rules but, no, defs save that for RT. Shall give the vehicle rules a good nosey though once i get home from work and can actually download them. Are their customising rules (i'm thinking on d6 WEG Star Wars lines here)? Personalising?

[Psyx]

And nothing is more Horror than a warp incursion on a cruiser going through the warp

They've already had that. I'm avoiding 'adventures on a ship' for a while, as they were getting sort of routine. Their Inquisitor pretty much turns up in systems with his ship, then deploys teams to deal with stuff. the party get to meet him once every 6 months at most, normally - he's a bit of a busy guy. The party are quite often sent out-of-system, so rely on merchant vessels a lot.


"Then, I guess have them work their trade in the ship ? Ships in 40K are pretty much big floating cities anyway."

I don't think that's very realistic, and I'm glad they don't do it. They view travel time as a combination of a bit of a well-earned rest and some time off to relax and service equipment. And I've managed to keep them off the whole 'money/shopping' thing generally. If they need a tool for a job, they can ask for it. Nothing commonly for sale in the Imperium would be an 'upgrade' for them anyway, and the only place that routinely has 'good stuff' is their Inquisitor's ship, and stuff there isn't for sale! One of them was eyeing up a nice sniper rifle in the hands of an NPC last session, but they'll have to do some work to get hold of one.

Frankly; too many sci-fi games turn into an arms race, or a string of shopping trips, and I'm glad to have avoided the issue.

[Ranos]

I really like the ship rules but, no, defs save that for RT. Shall give the vehicle rules a good nosey though once i get home from work and can actually download them. Are their customising rules (i'm thinking on d6 WEG Star Wars lines here)? Personalising?

In 40K ? That's heresy.
Kidding. I guess you could add things like booster packs and other mods, but it's not in the main rules. Shouldn't be too hard to houserule though.

[Yuki Akuma]

Most people don't know how to build warp vessels, so I'd assume customising one would be pretty hard...

[FelixG]

In 40K ? That's heresy.
Kidding. I guess you could add things like booster packs and other mods, but it's not in the main rules. Shouldn't be too hard to houserule though.

You meant to be kidding but customizing a vehicle is Tech Heresy XD It breaks the Law of Divine Complexity and is punishable... BY DEATH!!one11! 0.o :D

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Law_of_the_Divine_Complexity

[Ranos]

Meh, you can add weapon mods to a lasgun, can't you ? You're not changing the lasgun, just adding something on top.
Same here, it's a different approved machine added to another.

And no, of course, you're not gonna be customizing a warp drive. The vehicles book handles more mundane vehicles though, combat bikes, tanks, small fliers...

[Theo Hammond]

You meant to be kidding but customizing a vehicle is Tech Heresy XD It breaks the Law of Divine Complexity and is punishable... BY DEATH!!one11! 0.o :D

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Law_of_the_Divine_Complexity

*slaps forehead*

Oh yeah - whoopsy!

(Bet the chap playing the Tech-Priest forgets this also and still asks me).

Its a fine line between changing (heresy) and allowable additions though isn't it (such as adding a red-dot sight to a gun). I think so long as their is no innovation or function altering going on they should be okay. Will make sure i've had a good read read on the subject before it ever comes up though.

I'm sure in the Inquisitor's Handbook itself though is an example of a techpriest combining chameleoline with flak armour, suggesting that sort of thing is okay...hmmm...

[Jyokage]

Also remember that their inquisitor should be supplying basic necessities to his acolytes. Ammo, food, things like that. The inquisitor and his ilk are all part of a theocratic military dictatorship. They are basically military. Treat them as such, supplies should include communication, ammo and basic weapons and armor. It just makes sense to me to play them that way. But that is just my groups houserule. *We military folk like our freebies.*

[Talkkno]

are all part of a theocratic military dictatorship.

I dissagre , the Imperium is more feudal then anything else. The presence of Adeptues Terra is so loose in some places that the Imperium. that the only news they have of the wider Imperium is only heard once a generation by a passing freighter. Planetary governors are free do whatever they want so forth tithes are incoming and Imperial laws are maintained. In reality the Imperium is anything but a dictatorship, given the Impeirum keeps its worlds on a long leash indeed.

[Vikingkingq]

Really easy way to fix the income problem - borrow the Influence rules from Ascension. Now it's just a matter of figuring out what you can realistically requisition at your level.

So for your standard equipment issues, that's all you need. For personal purchases (I.e, when the Inquisitor says no) or clandestine/undercover purchases, or when you're somewhere where the Rosette isn't honored - that's when you bust out the cash.

In terms of melée, available modifiers to hit include: hatred, best quality, log is implant for tech priests, all-out attack/charge, feint, aim (you can aim with melée too), as well as precognitive strike.

[FelixG]

*slaps forehead*

Oh yeah - whoopsy!

(Bet the chap playing the Tech-Priest forgets this also and still asks me).

Its a fine line between changing (heresy) and allowable additions though isn't it (such as adding a red-dot sight to a gun). I think so long as their is no innovation or function altering going on they should be okay. Will make sure i've had a good read read on the subject before it ever comes up though.

I'm sure in the Inquisitor's Handbook itself though is an example of a techpriest combining chameleoline with flak armour, suggesting that sort of thing is okay...hmmm...

Yah its the difference between snapping an add on to the existing technology, say putting a pair of rocket boosters onto a scout bike to make it go faster isnt breaking the law of divine complexity, because they were both built as their designs intended and then brought together. Where as producing a bike that has the booster built in, then you are breaking the law of complexity for the bike and will end up in front of a firing squad, or alternatively in the employ of an inquisitive minded Magos (source: Mechanicum novel) :D

[ghashxx]

I'm with pretty much everyone else here in saying that of course the low levels should feel like you fail a lot, because everyone screws up stuff at low levels in DH. You should feel squishy when you start, because that's just the way the game works where, if you aren't really smart and tactical about what you're doing, you'll die.

Like when we had to storm a building, we had one guy take pot shots from the building across the way. When they sent out people, he fired a few more times, then hid behind some stuff when they started shooting. When they finally got inside our building, there were two people with shotguns and two frag grenades waiting for them. After that slaughter, we kept our sniper up for distraction as they fortified that side, leaving the other side open for invasion. We were actually supposed to die from that encounter (it was a one shot, so didn't really matter what happened) but instead we survived because we planned everything and could change the plan if necessary.

So DH, to me, is "play smart, or everyone dies", and I like that about it. The fact that you can die makes you more invested in treating your character like he/she is real, and therefore it's easier to really get into the story etc. Besides, the feeling of accomplishment when you've got 70+ "ranks" in any skill is incredible as you effortlessly pull off some ridiculous stuff, like redesign some power armor to fit your tech priest.

[FelixG]

Ok a friend of mine wanted to make a point here so i am letting him use my account

-coughs and assumes a Chosen One voice-

In regards to some of the "Oh the income makes no sense and I would just have the Inquisitor fill out a requisition form for me". Acolytes, especially new/untested ones, are unlikely to have anything more than an "experienced acolyte" above them and he would certainly not have his own armory/rosette to get what he wants. The book itself makes the point that some acolytes are one of hundreds if not thousands an inquisitor has running around and some aren't even aware they work for the Inquisition.

The income system is designed to represent your status as a "have not" of Imperial Society. You have access to a level of freedom and knowledge that most Imperial citizens will NEVER claim, but you don't have the ability to fill out a "Request card" and get whatever shiny bling you/your character views as necessary. If nobles are a particular issue in your game, then ban them from creation. Just say your Inquisitor sees no value in one at the present time. Then again, having a noble that buys all sorts of equipment that gets your team pointed out by your enemies makes having a rich player quite the mixed blessing.

Besides, your Inquisitor might not be around to give you stuff. So you have to hunt it down and claim it for yourself. Ascension and RT rules both assume you have ready access to your base of power, hence the acquisition system. DH Acolytes don't have that.

As a final note, throne gelt is as much a tool for roleplay as it is for game mechanics. Sure you can be uncreative and use it just for Inquiry tests to get yourself more stuff. Or you can use it to grease the wheels of a meet-up with a hiver scum you are dealing with to hopefully decrease the chance of him stabbing you in the back as he shows you to the sump bar where the group of mutants you are tracking seem to be hiding.

By all means, if you Inquisitor really is madly in love with THIS particular group of acolytes (right from the start) and is right there to back them up whenever they need then by all means! If that is the game you want to run, awesome. Enjoy it. But income is supposed to be both a limiting factor as well as a method of controlling your character's customization.

[Zen Master]

They're acolytes. They have connections.

This I would interpret in the exact opposite way. They are acolytes - they have NO connections.

Not until they get the relevant talents, such as Peer: Imperial Guard Quartermaster ... or some such =)

[Lycan 01]

I'm personally a subscriber to the "The Acolytes are on their own, and if they're lucky the Inquisitor will give them some spare ammo or a few basic weapons, maybe a chainsword or bolt pistol after they've earned his trust/respect" school of thought. :smallconfused:

No way is the Inquisitor going to just hand them an important relic like a bolter or Eviscerator just like that. That crap has to be earned, either through scrounging for Thrones, important sub-quests, or proving to their Inquisitor that they've got the intergalactic balls to handle crap like that. :smallamused:

[Psyx]

Don't confuse 'I don't like them messing around with money; they requisition what they need' with 'they can requisition evicerators and bolt guns'.

They dream of power weapons and plasma. The finest firearms in the group are a pair of high quality bolt pistols. At career level 7.

[chiasaur11]

A fair point.

I mean, even if they're getting requestioned gear, it's probably bare minimum stuff.

I mean, these guys aren't CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!

They get what they get and don't throw a fit.

(And really, if CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM! didn't always have what he'd want for a job, [even excluding a way to not need to do it] then pretty much nobody will)

[Oslecamo]

I mean, these guys aren't CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!


And what if they are? Why can't I play one of the main characters in 40K instead of random mook nº497 with a flashlight?
Why can't I play comissar Yarrick who starts with a power sword and uses it to rip off a power klaw from a warboss?
Why can't I play the IG sergeant from Blood and Fire who kills several nobs with a plasma pistol?
Why can't I be that other IG sergeant from the other story who despite being sent as cannon fodder against nids walks around with a bolt pistol and shoots down carnifexes with a rocket launcher?
Why can't I be CIPAHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM loyal sidekick with a space-marine-slaying melta gun?

[Lycan 01]

CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!! uses a las pistol, chainsword, and carapace vest. That IS basically starting gear. Nothing epic at all. But Commissar Cain saves the Imperium all the time with what most players would call junk. So if the players can't make due with basic stuff, then they will never be deserving of the title HEROES OF THE IMPERIUM!



Also, you can be a Blank. Radical's Handbook has stats for Blanks, Wyrds, and other things. :smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

And what if they are? Why can't I play one of the main characters in 40K instead of random mook nº497 with a flashlight?
Why can't I play comissar Yarrick who starts with a power sword and uses it to rip off a power klaw from a warboss?
Why can't I play the IG sergeant from Blood and Fire who kills several nobs with a plasma pistol?
Why can't I be that other IG sergeant from the other story who despite being sent as cannon fodder against nids walks around with a bolt pistol and shoots down carnifexes with a rocket launcher?
Why can't I be CIPAHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM loyal sidekick with a space-marine-slaying melta gun?

Because this is Dark Heresy, the game about being an Inquisitor's toady. If you want to do that stuff, play one of the other Warhammer 40k RPGs.

[Jaeger]

CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!! uses a las pistol, chainsword, and carapace vest.

To be fair he uses the Las Pistol and Chainsword because he has been using them for years. Even when he was given the chance to upgrade his pistol to a hellgun he refused because he knew the extra weight would throw off his aim. :smallwink:

Also it is entirely possible to play a great hero of the imperium in Dark Heresy. You just have to earn it.

[Destro_Yersul]

My group took down a corrupt planetary governor. Along the way, the guardsman managed to swipe a bunch of the house soldiers good-quality lasguns. Next, they went to a hiveworld, and said guardsman still has them, and is trying to unload them on the black market. It's rather funny, actually, and supplements his rather small guardsman income. I think the best weapon in the group right now is a bolt pistol they found...