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Lysander
2010-07-21, 05:40 PM
It occurs to me that Dominate Person could potentially be used as a buff. You cast it on your friend (who deliberately fails their save) and then you command them "Exercise free will and behave however you normally would". Your ally is not constrained in any way and now you have a long lasting telepathic connection between you two. You can get a general sense of whatever your ally is experiencing, and relay messages to them telepathically from anywhere on the same plane.

Not only that it can potentially shield your ally from enemy mental control:


Multiple Mental Control Effects

...If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

So if someone else tried to cast dominate person on your ally, you'd automatically make an opposed charisma check to see whether your order to exercise free will wins out. This would also apply for any mind control spell that your ally realizes is a mind control spell. Something like suggestion would probably fool them into thinking they are exercising free will, so you'd wouldn't automatically make a check but the caster could still counteract the suggestion's orders if you're aware of the suggestion spell. Spells that are simply mind-affecting like Hold Person wouldn't be blocked, but hey, nothings perfect.

The one big downside is that if an enemy magically gains control of the caster then they also get control of the ally. But other than that is there a drawback?

Jacque
2010-07-21, 06:09 PM
I know this isn't the perspective you're seeking information from, but I don't think any sane person would allow letting another cast dominate person on him. RP wise.

Greenish
2010-07-21, 06:12 PM
Suggestion doesn't normally make a person think it's their own idea, but I seem to recall a PrC or something which could do that.

The Anarresti
2010-07-21, 06:30 PM
I think the whole point of the dominate person spell is that it crushes free will. No matter if the caster wants the person's original personality to come out or not, it is still subsumed by the caster's if the reciepiant fails their saving throw.
Also, it wouldn't function as a telepathic link
You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.
By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still canít communicate with you. You canít actually see through the subjectís eyes, so itís not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of whatís going on.

My two cents.
But anyway, congrats on imaginative thinking!

Glimbur
2010-07-21, 06:38 PM
I know this isn't the perspective you're seeking information from, but I don't think any sane person would allow letting another cast dominate person on him. RP wise.

Normally, no. But adventurers aren't sane. They risk life and more on a daily or weekly basis for wealth, power, or to do what's right. The party barbarian knows he is weak against spells that target his mind, and he and the wizard have saved each other's lives many times. If their next foe is a wily enchanter known for taking over people's minds, would you dismiss the counter-dominate idea out of hand?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-21, 06:44 PM
Normally, no. But adventurers aren't sane. They risk life and more on a daily or weekly basis for wealth, power, or to do what's right. The party barbarian knows he is weak against spells that target his mind, and he and the wizard have saved each other's lives many times. If their next foe is a wily enchanter known for taking over people's minds, would you dismiss the counter-dominate idea out of hand?

Besides, it's not like the barbarian even has a say in the manner. Wizard takes first watch of the night, dumps the Dominate on the barbarian while he sleeps and thereby ignores the save!

Stompy
2010-07-21, 06:49 PM
Besides, it's not like the barbarian even has a say in the manner. Wizard takes first watch of the night, dumps the Dominate on the barbarian while he sleeps and thereby ignores the save!

Player 1: I cast dominate on the barbarian
Player 2: What are you doing?
Player 1: dominate....

all I'm saying is that there will be implications out of game for those stunts. The fun comes from casting dominate on yourself XD.

PersonMan
2010-07-21, 06:55 PM
Player 1: I cast dominate on the barbarian
Player 2: What are you doing?
Player 1: dominate....

all I'm saying is that there will be implications out of game for those stunts. The fun comes from casting dominate on yourself XD.

Player 1: *Passes note to DM*
Player 2: ?
Player 1: Backstory stuff/plot stuff/spell stuff.
Player 2: Ah.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-21, 07:03 PM
Besides, it's not like the barbarian even has a say in the manner. Wizard takes first watch of the night, dumps the Dominate on the barbarian while he sleeps and thereby ignores the save!That doesn't actually work. While "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing", that's not the same thing as "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw" - if you're unconscious, spells like Teleport that have the Harmless tag function automatically. Spells like Dominate Person, not so much.

olelia
2010-07-21, 07:12 PM
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spellís result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.


Kinda wishy washy if you ask me :smallbiggrin:.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-21, 07:22 PM
Kinda wishy washy if you ask me :smallbiggrin:.Lets look at it this way....

Do you want a CR-appropriate NPC Beguiler sneaking up to the party while you're resting, using Dominate Person on everyone, and then walk off, making everyone in the party do whatever evil deeds seem good to the Beguiler?

Stompy
2010-07-21, 07:28 PM
Lets look at it this way....

Do you want a CR-appropriate NPC Beguiler sneaking up to the party while you're resting, using Dominate Person on everyone, and then walk off, making everyone in the party do whatever evil deeds seem good to the Beguiler?

Emphasis for possible hilarity.

That's not how RAW works (DM logic, sure). I've always wondered if the no will save dealie while sleeping actually works as well, considering I thought it was true as well, until someone shot me down.

Besides, it's much more fun than a rogue with a oil of silence assassinating us all.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-21, 07:48 PM
Besides, it's not like the barbarian even has a say in the manner. Wizard takes first watch of the night, dumps the Dominate on the barbarian while he sleeps and thereby ignores the save!

No, the Barbarian still gets a save. "Willing" refers to spells like Teleport which only affect willing targets. If it worked another way why would Nightmare require a save?

Arillius
2010-07-21, 07:57 PM
Honestly I love this idea. Its an interesting thought to use it in defense to. So far I haven't been in a party where PC's trust each other yet, so it wouldn't help me.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-21, 07:57 PM
No, the Barbarian still gets a save. "Willing" refers to spells like Teleport which only affect willing targets. If it worked another way why would Nightmare require a save?

You expect WotC to be consistent?:smalltongue: Seriously, though, the text itself by RAW is conflicting, but I support the view that being asleep=no save.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-21, 08:01 PM
Honestly I love this idea. Its an interesting thought to use it in defense to. So far I haven't been in a party where PC's trust each other yet, so it wouldn't help me.

Might if you're the Wizard. Especially as you can reverse the order whenever you like...

dgnslyr
2010-07-21, 08:01 PM
Player 1: I cast dominate on the barbarian
Player 2: What are you doing?
Player 1: dominate....

all I'm saying is that there will be implications out of game for those stunts. The fun comes from casting dominate on yourself XD.

I don't feel like studying, so I'm going to Dominate myself to force myself into studying! Brilliant! Never worry about feeling lazy again, because you can literally FORCE yourself into doing anything boring.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-21, 08:07 PM
I don't feel like studying, so I'm going to Dominate myself to force myself into studying! Brilliant! Never worry about feeling lazy again, because you can literally FORCE yourself into doing anything boring.

You can never reverse the order, though (well, not until the spell expires), as you must pursue it to the exclusion of all else....

Siosilvar
2010-07-21, 08:07 PM
Speaking of suggestion...

I suggest you follow your own instincts and reasoning.

Alternately, I suggest there is no mind control. Go back to your fun.

Lysander
2010-07-21, 08:08 PM
I think the whole point of the dominate person spell is that it crushes free will. No matter if the caster wants the person's original personality to come out or not, it is still subsumed by the caster's if the reciepiant fails their saving throw.
Also, it wouldn't function as a telepathic link
My two cents.
But anyway, congrats on imaginative thinking!

There's no direct telepathic contact, as in telepathic bond, but you can still transmit information both ways. This is what the caster receives:


By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still canít communicate with you. You canít actually see through the subjectís eyes, so itís not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of whatís going on.

So you can't receive messages, but you can get an impression of the subject's location and current situation. Not bad. As for the subject, you can easily deliver messages to them with this:


Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.

So you can telepathically order the subject "Think this message: "Hey, this is your wizard friend. Here's some advice, [ADVICE GOES HERE]"

mucat
2010-07-21, 08:21 PM
Interestingly, my character proposed this very idea in a campaign I'm playing in now...not to cast the spell on his adventuring companions, but on NPCs with whom we badly needed to maintain rapid communication at great distances.

The character himself found the idea repulsive, but possibly necessary to save lives...and even then, I considered it evidence that he is hovering on the edge of evil alignment. Messing with a person's free will is never harmless.

Fortunately, the group came up with an alternate plan. But I do think it would have worked. While the spell does not allow direct mind-to-mind communication, the fact that the caster is aware of everything that happens to the subject will still allow them to devise ways to exchange messages. (The caster can send messages simply by compelling the subject to write them down, and the subject can send messages by speaking them aloud and letting the sensory link do its job.)

EDIT: Partly ninja'd by above Lysander.

PersonMan
2010-07-21, 08:26 PM
Speaking of suggestion...

I suggest you follow your own instincts and reasoning.

Alternately, I suggest there is no mind control. Go back to your fun.

I suggest you ignore this suggestion.

Siosilvar
2010-07-21, 08:31 PM
I suggest you ignore this suggestion.

Doesn't trigger the "multiple compulsion/charm effects" clause and is a task that can be completed before 1 hour/level is up. Suggestion will last until completed or an hour per level; "your instincts/reasoning" should then continue until death or an hour per level.

PersonMan
2010-07-21, 08:35 PM
Doesn't trigger the "multiple compulsion/charm effects" clause and is a task that can be completed before 1 hour/level is up. Suggestion will last until completed or an hour per level; "your instincts/reasoning" should then continue until death or an hour per level.

I Suggest that I should look up spells before posting stuff like that.

dgnslyr
2010-07-21, 08:49 PM
You can never reverse the order, though (well, not until the spell expires), as you must pursue it to the exclusion of all else....

But if I, the caster, don't spend one round concentrating on it, then I can get another chance to save every day. If I feel confident, and my Will is good, then I can willingly hit myself with it, then snap out of it the next day, or the day after. Still a bit risky, but if I have a friend make sure I can snap out of it to go to school, a pretty fun choice for weekend cramming.

Lysander
2010-07-21, 08:54 PM
You can never reverse the order, though (well, not until the spell expires), as you must pursue it to the exclusion of all else....

I guess the wording of the order would be important. Instead of "Study", which would make you ignore eating and sleeping, you might want to say "Spend your time productively." That way you could do anything useful, including basic hygiene and nutrition, but would spend most of your time studying.


But if I, the caster, don't spend one round concentrating on it, then I can get another chance to save every day. If I feel confident, and my Will is good, then I can willingly hit myself with it, then snap out of it the next day, or the day after. Still a bit risky, but if I have a friend make sure I can snap out of it to go to school, a pretty fun choice for weekend cramming.

You'd have to make sure not to order yourself to concentrate on yourself every day.

dgnslyr
2010-07-21, 09:11 PM
I guess the wording of the order would be important. Instead of "Study", which would make you ignore eating and sleeping, you might want to say "Spend your time productively." That way you could do anything useful, including basic hygiene and nutrition, but would spend most of your time studying.



You'd have to make sure not to order yourself to concentrate on yourself every day.

Dominate Person: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)



Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth).


I can't concentrate on Dominating myself if I Dominated myself into doing nothing but studying and basic functions, now could I?

Stompy
2010-07-21, 09:34 PM
Dominate Person: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)

I can't concentrate on Dominating myself if I Dominated myself into doing nothing but studying and basic functions, now could I?

You get a lot more saves (at a +2 bonus) if studying is against your nature :smallbiggrin:.

dgnslyr
2010-07-21, 10:09 PM
You get a lot more saves (at a +2 bonus) if studying is against your nature :smallbiggrin:.

I actually hope I DON'T qualify for the extra saves.
Speaking of which, I should be studying right now.

Escheton
2010-07-22, 12:45 AM
Spells and alignment aside, in normal partys or grouprelations a dominant person has such control over others in that group that they indeed resist outside influence better.
Whether it's because he/she is a leadertype, or the rest is just submissive. It doesn't matter. It is natural behaviour. Why exclude it from your games?

Ranos
2010-07-22, 01:24 AM
That's interesting. Thanks, I had a party member that was worried about mindcontrolling. This should help.

Lamech
2010-07-22, 01:34 AM
Geas would be better for this. Its harder to remove, you could make last until of the characters own free will he says "waka waka waka"; which would never happen. One doesn't need to worry about temptation, since the command couldn't be changed.

I do still fully support the use of dominate to keep people safe from (enemy) mind-control, and for the facilitation of communication.