View Full Version : Fire-spittin' Cowboys (PEACH 3.5 PrC)

2010-07-21, 07:58 PM
So I got the idea for this PrC from the random generators linked to in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8951843#post8951843).

The fluff could obviously vary depending on the campaign, but I originally imagine this class with a decidedly "old west" flavour.

I posted the first draft of this class in the thread I inked to.
Here is the second draft:


BAB +5
Feats: Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw
Skills: Jump 5 Ranks, Sense Motive 5 Ranks, Slight of Hand 5 Ranks, Spot 5 Ranks, Tumble 5 Ranks, Use Rope 5 Ranks

Class Skills
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Str), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Cha), Slight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex)

Skill Points/Level
6 + Int Mod

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1st | +1 | +0 | +2 | +0 | Flame Shot, Fiery Instinct, Fire Resistance, Difficult Target
2nd | +2 | +0 | +3 | +0 | Speed, Bonus Feat, Flame Snipe
3rd | +3 | +1 | +3 | +1 | Uncanny Dodge
4th | +4 | +1 | +4 | +1 | Bonus Feat, Flame Blast
5th | +5 | +1 | +4 | +1 | Fiery Fists
6th | +6 | +2 | +5 | +2 | Bonus Feat, Flame Burst
7th | +7 | +2 | +5 | +2 | Fiery Temper
8th | +8 | +2 | +6 | +2 | Bonus Feat, Specialized Flame
9th | +9 | +3 | +6 | +3 | Firewalk
10th | +10 | +3 | +7 | +3 |Bonus Feat, Fire Door[/table]

Flame Shot (Su)
A Pyroduelist shoot a small ball of flame from his finger tips as an Attack Action. This counts as a Ranged Attack with a range increment equal to 5 feet/Class Level and a maximum range of 5 range increments..
A Pyroduelist's Flame Shot deals 1d12 damage + 1d12 / 2 Class Levels. The Flame Shot's critical hit threat range and damage is 18-20/x2.
A Pyroduelist must have one hand free (holding nothing) in order to use this. He may use his off hand for this. Flame Shot counts as a light weapon.

Fiery Instinct
A Pyroduelist gains a bonus equal to their Class Level to all Initiative Rolls.

Fire Resistance
A Pyroduelist has Fire Resistance equal to 5 x Class Level.

A Pyroduelist’s Speed increases by +5 Feet/2 Class Levels. If the Pyroduelist is mounted and for a number of minutes equal tot heir Class Level after he dismounts bonus this applies to the Mount as well.
Only one mount may be receiving this benefit at any given time.

Difficult Target
All ranged attacks against a Pyroduelist suffer from a miss chnace equal to 5% x Class Level.

Bonus Feat
At every even level a Pyroduelist gains a Bonus feat from the following list: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Combat Reflexes, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Mobility, Endurance, Diehard, Improved Critical (Flame Shot), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Shot On The Run, Run, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Stealthy, Toughness, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Flame Shot), Weapon Specialization (Flame Shot), Greater Weapon Focus (Flame Shot), Greater Weapon Specialization (Flame Shot)
He must qualify for the Feat in order to take it.
Pyroduelist Levels count as Fighter Level for the purpose of Feat Prerequisites.
Special: Depending on the sources allowed there may be other Feats that are appropriate for Pyroduelists to choose as their Bonus Feats. This list is SRD only.

Flame Snipe
As a Full Round Action a Pyroduelist may double the range increment and damage of his Flame Shot. The Maximum range also increases to 10 range increments.
If he moves, including taking a 5 foot step, he loses this benefit until he reactivates it. He may not attack the while he is "setting up."
A Pyroduelist must have both hands free (not holding anything) to use this ability.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
A Pyroduelist retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Pyroduelist already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
A Pyroduelist can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Pyroduelist by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Pyroduelist levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Flame Blast (Su)
As a Full Attack Action a Pyroduelist may use his Flame Shot as a Cone with a range of 5 feet/Class Level.
It deals only half damage on a successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Cha modifier).

Flaming Fists
A Pyroduelist adds his Flame Shot damage to his Unarmed damage.

Flame Burst (Su)
A Pyroduelist may, as a Full Attack Action, discharge a fiery explosion centered on himself with a radius of 5 Feet/2 Class Levels. The fire harms neither himself nor his equipment, but deals his Flame Shot damage to everything else within range. Creatures may make a Reflex saving throw to take half damage, DC equals 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Cha modifier.

Fiery Temper
Whenever a Pyroduelist takes combat damage he may choose one ability score and gain a +2 bonus to that score for a number of rounds equal to his Class Level. These bonuses stack.

Specialized Shot
A Pyroduelist may choose one of the following Class Features. He may not change this choice ever.
Dual Flame Shot
A Pyroduelist may dual wield his Flame Shot as two separate light ranged weapons.
He may not dual wield it while the range and damaged are doubled by Flame Snipe.
Quick Sniper
A Pyroduelist's Flame Snipe may be set up as a Standard Action rather than a Full Round Action.
Also a Pyroduelist may now take 5 foot steps without deactivating this ability.

Firewalk (Su)
A Pyroduelist can literally walk on air. He moves at his normal speed in all directions, including vertically, but cannot move more than double his speed in a round if using this ability. A firewalking Pyroduelist leaves footprints of flame in the air that disperse in 2 rounds, but his tread does not deal damage.
If the Pyroduelist is mounted and for a number of minutes equal to his Class Level after he dismounts this applies to the Mount as well.
Only one mount may be receiving this benefit at any given time.
This ability requires no activation and may be used as part of any movement.

Fire Door (Su)
3/day a Pyroduelist may transport himslef and others disappearing in a non-harmful burst of flame and reappearing somewhere else within range. This ability is as the spell dimension door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensiondoor.htm) at a Caster Level equal to the Pyroduelist’s Class Level.
The range, however, is changed to medium (100 feet + 10 feet/CL).

So the main things I'd like advice on are:
1) Should I change the Animal Companion to Special Mount? I kinda think Paladin fits with this class batter than Druid... or I could make it an either or deal, player's choice...
2) Should any of the Class Features be reordered?
3) Balance?
4) Ideas for other Class Features?
5) Notice any possible "breaking points" that can be abused? (In order to change/get rid of them.)

I always appreciate any and all feedback.

EDIT: Changed Fire Resistance from 10 x CL to 5 x CL.

2010-07-22, 08:24 AM
this is my first time critiquing so i dont know if this is right or not so here i go

In my opinion fire resistance is too powerful maybe fire resistance 10,20,30 at levels 1,5,10?

also to me Evasion and Difficult Target seem too similar to each other to use them both

sooo other than that everything else looks good to me:smallbiggrin:and also have a few more requirements, I seem to remember seeing a pyromaniac feat somewhere that might be a good requirement

2010-07-22, 03:21 PM
Thank you very much for your input.

I think I will change the Fire Resistance to 5 x Class Level (half what it was oringinally).

While Evasion and Difficult Target are similar flavour-wise they affect two different aspects of the rules.
Evasion helps against anything with a Reflex save white DT only helps with ranged attacks.

I must admit though that I thought about taking Evasion away from this class originally, but decided to leave it in unless I could come up with something more interesting.
Non-caster classes need defensive features like evasion.

I know the requirements seem a little sparse, don't they?
I will look into finding that (or other) Feat(s) and maybe some Skills or something else...

Thanks again.

Gotta run I'll edit OP later...
EDIT: done.

The Anarresti
2010-07-22, 09:38 PM
I'd say that for these feats
Weapon Specialization (Flame Shot), Greater Weapon Focus (Flame Shot), Greater Weapon Specialization (Flame Shot), you can say that the Fighter level requirements are waived. Otherwise these become pointless.

2010-07-22, 10:22 PM
Thanks, I wasn't sure whether or not to do that, but I will now.

2010-07-22, 11:43 PM
Do you still have to qualify for improved criticals? If not, thats kinda cheap. 10d12+10 18-20 crit x3 at level 10? thats a lot man for a PrC with low requirements, it's pretty much better than all melee classes ...ever, and the effect that lets you double damage is free (attack action=standard action) animal companion OK doesn't make sense but whatever. Firewalk, Firedoor, dual wield thing, and dificult target combined with the rest = gamebreaker you'd pretty much ruin the game for anyone who can't rapid fire quadruple damage fireball spells while teleporting, defying gravity, and avoiding 50% of attacks, on a horse. (FYI everyone) The only thing even remotely as cheap is the ability to deal 200+ damage a round to dragons, ignoring resistances with magic missile. (actually possible with wizard) in my signature is a PrC for a gunslinger with actual guns you could look at it, get some ideas, and adapt it to magic rays of fire. In it's current state this class is unplayable even by min/maxing powergamer standards. You have good intentions I can tell, but your not use to balance, which is important if you don't want to piss off players/DM.

2010-07-24, 12:24 AM
Yes, you still have to qualify for Improved Critical.
I changed that part too for clarity and balance.

Edited the OP:
1) Lowered HD from d8 to d6. The point of quick shooting is that 1 shot usually drops the opponent.

2) Lowered Skill Points/Level from 8 to 6 (+ Int mod).

3) Removed Evasion and Animal Companion.

4) Changed Flame Snipe and Dual Flame Shot and rearranged Class Feature on the Table.

5) I stiffened the Requirements.
I think the Feats are obvious. I see you used those two feats for your class as well. I thought of using Dodge, but decided not to. I see you used it.
Jump: Partially justify/pay for the ability to dodge... and later defy gravity:smalltongue:
Sense Motive: Just when you start thinking about drawing your gun he quickly whips his out and shoots you down just as your fingertips touch the handle of your gun.
Slight of Hand: You need train to get your hand that fast.
Tumble: Again with the avoiding of enemy fire.
Use Rope: This can work with cowboy flavour and/or practicing witht he fluid motion of rope is like pyrokinetics for beginners.

6) Halved Speed.

Now I'll go check out your class:
I like your class. I think I actually read it (and liked it a lot) when you first posted it.
Although we ended up getting some of the same requirements I don't think there's much that these classes can share with each other besides the speed boost which they already do.
Although I do think Pyroduelist is a sort of (Su) to the Marksmen's (Ex).

As for power level. You were right, Pyroduelist was overpowered. What do you think now?
I am going for more powerful than a PHB melee class.
One would need to be at least Level 5 to enter this class and according to some Level 5 is where the line of best human ever (Albert Einstein, Donovan Bailey, etc.) is drawn.

EDIT: Halved range of Flame Shot and quartered range of Fire Door. Also rearranged Class Features on the the Table again.

'notherEDIT: Added Dodge as a Requirement because the idea of choosing a single opponent to dodge attacks from fits perfectly with the duelist archetype.

2010-07-24, 05:42 PM
Ok, this is much better than before, you may want to change the damage die to a d10 rather than a d12 for two reasons, to slightly decrease the damage (Should not not impact it much still would be tier 1-2 PrC), and because d12 is not used for damage really, just hit die. I like how you can specialize, because it reminds me of two different kinds of outlaws, the quick shooter, and the one shot, one kill. The d6 is good because you won't be as squishy as a wizard, but you won't be ridiculously tough like a cleric. Fire res down is useful, it'll help when fighting spellcasters and dragons. You'll probably have to change the crit range to 18-20 x2, because nothing has 18-20 x3, for a reason(or at least 19-20 x3 you'd be suprised how often you crit). Besides with that much damage, x2 is sufficient. I'd love to see a shootout between a marksmen and a pyroduelist.

2010-07-24, 06:51 PM
I'm going to leave the damage at d12 for a couple reasons:
1) The d12 doesn't see a lot of play except Barbarian HD and greataxe damage so I like taking it off the bench and giving it a chance to play with the other dice.
2) Larger dice = more randomness and I think randomness fits well with fire.

I will, however, remove the +1/CL which doesn't take much damage away, but takes a little and streamlines the whole ordeal a bit (OK, not much, but a bit).

I will also change the critical threat range to 18-20/x2.

I think scoring critical hits more often fits well with this class (good aim).

Finally I will reduce the Fire Door to 3/day.

I definitely don't think this is a tier 1 PrC. I mean, it doesn't even come close to the tier 1 Base Classes in the PHB.

I am aiming for "good" which will be more powerful than your average Fighter or other PHB full BAB class.

I'd also love to see a shootout between the two classes. Also a multiclass of the two would be pretty fearsome, although some compatibility house ruling might be warranted.

EDIT: I changed the wording on the Speed bonus and Firewalk ability to clarify when the Mount is granted those abilities.
Most importantly only one mount may benefit at a time.

EDIT2: I changed the range of the cone attack to 5 feet/CL rather than 1/4 Flame Shot range.
Originally, when the Flame Shot's range was twice what it is now, the cone would have been 5 feet/CL this just makes it official. Also made both Flame Blast and Flame Burst Full Attack Action (one was a Standard Action).
For those who didn't make this connection the cone is similar to a shotgun as opposed to the Flame Shot normally being a "pistol."
Don't ask me what the explosion centered on yourself is similar to...

EDIT3: I'd love it if someone wanted to make a build (any level) they might use this class as part of.
With SRD along it seems like Rogue 2-4/Full BAB Class 2-4 is the fastest.
If you did straight Rogue 7 you would have 2d6 more Sneak Attack damage and more skills.
I can see Fighter or Ranger 1-2 being useful.
I could also see Barbarian 1-4 being useful.
There's a Bard/Ranger possibility in there as well.

2010-07-25, 12:07 PM
Yep this is better than most PrCs (Bard ones are terrible) and it's probably good to give the d12 some love. I love getting criticals, I have a bard who specializes in crits, he has a keen icy burst scythe (2d4+1d6ice,crit 19-20 x4 +3d10 ice,slashing or piercing) once i get improved criticals it'll be amazing. So I like this, I'll keep checking back here for updates.

2010-07-25, 05:38 PM
Made changes to:

1) Flame Shot (reduced damage, changed range)

2) Flame Snipe (specified must have 2 hands free)

3) Flame Blast & Burst (lowered DCs)

4) Specialized Flame (Dual wield may not be used with Snipe and Improved Snipe allows 5 foot step)

5) Difficult Target (granted earlier since it starts small and progresses)

6) Added Fiery Fists (It wasn't there before).

EDIT: Added Spot to Requirements.
Also, this class may easily be changed to another energy.
Some changes beyond damage and resistance type might be classed for, I may work on that.
Also an interesting idea would be to have the character be able to choose the damage type when the attack is declared and replace the energy Resistance (5 x CL) with DR (= CL). This strikes me as a good idea for a martial arts character (although I already thought this class would work just as well with eastern flavour as with western flavour).