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Cursedblessing
2010-07-21, 11:46 PM
So I was looking at an old thread about polymorph and awaken abuse and it got me thinking, why do we even need awaken?

eg. The Genius Wizard is tired of explaining the plan to the Big Stupid Barbarian. So he gets the idea, what if i turn the Big Stupid Barbarian into the Big Smart Barbarian. *Poof* "I get it now".

Why it works.
PaO can change one creature into another. Such as a dumb one into a smart one. I see no reason or in fact anything that stops me from becoming a specific creature.

So lets check the duration
Same kingdom: check +5
Same class: check +2
Same Size: check +2
Related: check +2
Same or lower intelligence: not check +0
Duration factor: 11 = permanent.

But why stop at the brain? Normally you cant change cha or wis but:

Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form.
So PaO BSB into a statue twice (second time makes it permanent). Then follow up with another 2xPaO back into BSB but with higher wis and cha. Permanantly. And Repeat as level increases so that it gets harder to dispel.
Permanent buffs. FOR FREE.

PaO is all powerful. Whats the cost. Nothing much, just a spell component pouch, a wave of the hand and a few words. Oh and looking like a beacon that can be seen from outer space under detect magic.

And it gets better. Arcane Thesis:PaO + Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials, so uh just a moment to think?

Yukitsu
2010-07-21, 11:54 PM
Most people do a progression, moving from less and less similar forms until they arrive at the correct one.

That aside, I'd say it's less abusive than say, gate, shapechange or simulacrum. Ultimately, you're still a poor combatant with stats you probably won't use, and if you rely on int to cast, most creatures don't have higher.

Milskidasith
2010-07-21, 11:55 PM
Actually, yes, it is, Gnomo. Unless I'm completely mistaken, all the spells variables (including duration) are set at the time of casting, and don't get changed based on other factors.

EDIT: He ninja deleted his post. :smallannoyed:

2xMachina
2010-07-21, 11:56 PM
Actually, yes, it is, Gnomo. Unless I'm completely mistaken, all the spells variables (including duration) are set at the time of casting, and don't get changed based on other factors.

EDIT: He ninja deleted his post. :smallannoyed:

Always be quoting when quoting :P

faceroll
2010-07-22, 12:20 AM
It's a spell that turns rocks into beholders.
It's awesome.

Tshern
2010-07-22, 02:37 AM
Be a Dweomerkeeper, use Supernatural spell, be undispellable, laugh.

Superglucose
2010-07-22, 02:46 AM
Be a Dweomerkeeper, use Supernatural spell, be undispellable, laugh.
At least until someone thinks to shape an antimagic field.

And frankly if my party starts using PA:O cheese against me, I won't even hesitate to throw a bit of AMF cheese against them. Or how about some PA:O cheese of my own?

PA:O can permanently turn my NG dwarven cleric into a Horned Devil.

How?

Infernal Transformation gives me the "outsider" type. I then PA:O myself into a Horned Devil, and then PA:O myself into a horned devil again.

Duration factor +13!

jseah
2010-07-22, 02:47 AM
I use it as a summon anything spell. SM1, then PaO your summons.

Morph Bark
2010-07-22, 03:46 AM
Up until this thread, I had always read PaO as being incapable of turning you into a smarter creature and give you its Int score. Never really bothered to read more carefully.


EDIT: He ninja deleted his post. :smallannoyed:

Wait, that's possible here? I wasn't aware you could delete your posts.

Tshern
2010-07-22, 04:01 AM
At least until someone thinks to shape an antimagic field.
Take a step backwards then.

Killer Angel
2010-07-22, 04:20 AM
Wait, that's possible here? I wasn't aware you could delete your posts.

Yep, it's under the "edit" options

Eldariel
2010-07-22, 04:54 AM
So yeah, PAO is quite good (that is, obscenely broken; Beholder Mage ring any bells?) but not quite the best spell. Simulacrum and Planar Bindings are probably the most busted and then you have 9th level spells which are only fair by virtue of being of too high level.

Cursedblessing
2010-07-22, 11:50 AM
Be a Dweomerkeeper, use Supernatural spell, be undispellable, laugh.

What book is that from? (I have a horrible memory for which book contains what).

Optimystik
2010-07-22, 11:59 AM
What book is that from? (I have a horrible memory for which book contains what).

Dweomerkeeper is in the Complete Divine web enhancement. It is one of the Big 4 Tier-0 PrCs. (The other three being Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd, and Tainted Scholar.)

(I don't normally include Beholder Mage because unlike the others, it is not intended for PCs to use.)

Stompy
2010-07-22, 02:52 PM
I think it's the best spell ever, because it can in theory wreck a DM's entire campaign world with one casting.

I polymorph any object myself into a miniature (fits within 100ft*CL) black hole, sun, or equivalent volume of dark matter for 1 hour. :smallsmile:

Superglucose
2010-07-22, 03:02 PM
Take a step backwards then.
Reach AMF with Extraordinary Spell Aim excluding myself from the AMF.

Take all the steps backwards or forwards you want.

2xMachina
2010-07-23, 04:37 AM
It's a cleric based Dweomerkeeper right? Add Cheater of Mystra in.

Bayar
2010-07-23, 05:07 AM
Dweomerkeeper is in the Complete Divine web enhancement. It is one of the Big 4 Tier-0 PrCs. (The other three being Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd, and Tainted Scholar.)

(I don't normally include Beholder Mage because unlike the others, it is not intended for PCs to use.)

I thought they were called +2 PrC's...

grautry
2010-07-23, 05:11 AM
So PaO BSB into a statue twice (second time makes it permanent). Then follow up with another 2xPaO back into BSB but with higher wis and cha. Permanantly. And Repeat as level increases so that it gets harder to dispel.
Permanent buffs. FOR FREE.

By turning him into a creature that's inherently smarter, yes(say half-orc->angel).

But unless I'm misremembering the rules you can't turn a half-orc into a smarter half-orc. PaO turns you into a perfectly average example of the given species.

If you skip that, then yes, PaO is all-powerful because you can turn yourself into yourself with Graham's Number score in each ability.

Cursedblessing
2010-07-25, 09:23 PM
where does it say an average creature? all i see is it says to reference the MM

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-07-26, 03:25 AM
I thought they were called +2 PrC's...It is for the pro's on BG

Kobold-Bard
2010-07-26, 05:44 AM
Shapechange into Solar.
PoA turning you into an identical Solar.
You're now a Solar forever.

Use PoA twice to turn all the party into Gold Dragons.

Laugh and eat pizza as the DM weeps in a corner. Works especially well with Spell Points because you can do it much quicker :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 05:46 AM
Dweomerkeeper is in the Complete Divine web enhancement. It is one of the Big 4 Tier-0 PrCs. (The other three being Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd, and Tainted Scholar.)

(I don't normally include Beholder Mage because unlike the others, it is not intended for PCs to use.)

Forgot you some Illithid Savant? :smallamused:

Also, if there are any 1-HD true dragons, wizards with Leadership now officially rock out hard.

candycorn
2010-07-26, 09:07 AM
At least until someone thinks to shape an antimagic field.

And frankly if my party starts using PA:O cheese against me, I won't even hesitate to throw a bit of AMF cheese against them. Or how about some PA:O cheese of my own?

PA:O can permanently turn my NG dwarven cleric into a Horned Devil.

How?

Infernal Transformation gives me the "outsider" type. I then PA:O myself into a Horned Devil, and then PA:O myself into a horned devil again.

Duration factor +13!

Why not use PaO against AMF cheese?

PaO the big nasty things you meet into copper coins (after doing something to make them like you), then PaO them into copper coins again. Whenever you fight, take a handful of them out of your bag of holding and drop em on the ground. If an AMF comes in, the PaO is suppressed, and the monsters come back.

dspeyer
2010-07-26, 09:27 AM
Hire a sculptor to carve a dozen life-size statues of you out of ivory. PaO them into yourself. Be a dozen people (maybe keep a few hidden as backups).

PaO your 16th lvl barb into a 20th lvl warblade.

PaO a rock into a guy who knows the password to the BBEG's lair.

Sooner or later the DM is going to just say no, but I don't know when.

Toliudar
2010-07-26, 11:56 AM
All of this is why PAO is indeed the spell that makes the little vein throb on the side of my head.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 11:59 AM
Sooner or later the DM is going to just say no, but I don't know when.

Hopefully, the first time you say "I cast poly-"

TroubleBrewing
2010-07-26, 01:29 PM
Hopefully, the first time you say "I cast poly-"

This is my approach. It's safer than just trying to ban specific uses of the spell, especially since there are 4 players and only 1 of me. They're guaranteed to think of something I missed.

Oslecamo
2010-07-26, 01:36 PM
Laugh and eat pizza as the DM weeps in a corner. snickers and the BBEG PaO his hordes of minions into gold dragons as well.

Fixed that for you. Trying to start an arms race with the DM is never a good idea. Polymorph and pals are broken, but whatever ways you can abuse them, the monsters can abuse them more.:smallamused:

Sinfonian
2010-07-26, 02:53 PM
Also, if there are any 1-HD true dragons, wizards with Leadership now officially rock out hard.

Not that Leadership needed to be broken more, but Dragonwrought Kobolds (IIRC) count as True Dragons.

ericgrau
2010-07-26, 02:55 PM
It's versatile but that only means it's great for clever tricks. The HD cap means you either need splatbook monsters (with a high CR:HD ratio) or you get a form with CR = 1/2 your level. Otherwise transforming into a form simply to beat things up will often be disappointing. For example, I was double checking the spell wording before writing the post and noticed this: "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." That kills one of the most popular combat forms, the hydra. That text is from alter self, but polymorph functions like alter self except as stated, and PaO functions like polymorph except as stated. Neither spell overwrites the extra limb rule. Other monsters like dragons have a poor CR:HD ratio.

As for multiple casting, I'm not sure multiple castings of the same spell stack. Or they might apply to the creature's original form rather than the new one. In fact, I believe polymorph is the example used to show a spell that makes previous castings irrelevant. I could be wrong, but it seems like a pointless restriction if there's such a simple work around; doesn't seem like the intent.

Eldariel
2010-07-26, 03:21 PM
It's versatile but that only means it's great for clever tricks. The HD cap means you either need splatbook monsters (with a high CR:HD ratio) or you get a form with CR = 1/2 your level. Otherwise transforming into a form simply to beat things up will often be disappointing. For example, I was double checking the spell wording before writing the post and noticed this: "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." That kills one of the most popular combat forms, the hydra. That text is from alter self, but polymorph functions like alter self except as stated, and PaO functions like polymorph except as stated. Neither spell overwrites the extra limb rule. Other monsters like dragons have a poor CR:HD ratio.´

That line means you cannot e.g. Multiweapon Fight while Polymorphed; that having a form with multiple limbs does not increase the amount of attacks you can make. A separate line gives you all the Natural Weapons of the creature, which is all it takes to make the 12 Bite attacks, for example, since that's Hydra's natural weapons. Also, you can find plenty of HD ~ CR forms in MM if you look. Magical Beasts in particular often fall in there, and Monstrous Humanoids can often have fairly good abilities for their HD too. And of course, Outsiders if you happen to have acquired the type with e.g. Tiefling.

That said, it's all rather irrelevant since CR doesn't account for the creature being magically boosted with WBL and spells; Hydra with Greater Magic Fang +4 on all its weapons and +4 Strength from Bull's Strength is already easily CR higher than the original. I don't really see what the CRs matter in judging the forms' power, especially since CR itself tends to be inaccurate or overspecialized.

jiriku
2010-07-26, 03:27 PM
You could actually make significant strides in balancing polymorph any object by restricting it to only turning objects into other objects.

You know, like the spell's name says.

It's also emininently reasonable to decide that the permanency of the effect is based on the object's original natural form, rather than any temporary form it may currently be assuming.

ericgrau
2010-07-26, 03:30 PM
Gaining natural weapons is not the same as gaining more attacks. Especially when the spell specifically says more limbs doesn't grant more attacks. I have two hands, but I don't automatically have 2 attacks. Not to mention, feet, knees, elbows, head butts. So the hydra gets a bite and 9 "left heads".

Buffs take more spells and time to cast. Greater magic fang is fine if the polymorph is permanent or semi-permanent (b/c it targets a single natural weapon). Bull's strength OTOH is a waste of a round IMO; at best it's a trade-off. Gear melds into the new form, unless the campaign has a town that sells discount hydra barding. Something DMs should be wary of even if the PCs do find convoluted way to explain it. Finally, your starting point is often half your level in CR. That's a lot of buffs just to get it up to par when often similar buffs could make a regular PC even better.

EDIT: Dragon CR is about 2/3 their HD, and they're already a poor choice for raw power (w/o special strategic uses), so 2/3 or so may be a more accurate number. Still below the PC's level.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-26, 03:45 PM
Gaining natural weapons is not the same as gaining more attacks. Especially when the spell specifically says more limbs doesn't grant more attacks. I have two hands, but I don't automatically have 2 attacks. Not to mention, feet, knees, elbows, head butts. So the hydra gets a bite and 9 "left heads".


That's a perfectly valid interpretation, but only in the sense of Rule 0 and DM Fiat. As i understand it, by RAW the hydra really does gain all of the attacks, because of exactly how it's statblock is put together.

Whether it should or shouldn't and whether you would run it that way or not doesn't really come into it, unfortunately. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-07-26, 03:51 PM
Gaining natural weapons is not the same as gaining more attacks. Especially when the spell specifically says more limbs doesn't grant more attacks. I have two hands, but I don't automatically have 2 attacks. Not to mention, feet, knees, elbows, head butts. So the hydra gets a bite and 9 "left heads".

That's not how it works in D&D. Creatures have certain number of limbs and arm-like limbs are generally capable of wielding weapons. However, only weapons marked as Natural Weapons in the creature entry can be used as such; otherwise they're a part of the singular entity "Unarmed Strike" that's only a single weapon, or not usable as weapons at all.

You receive Natural Weapons marked in the creature's entry. That's explicitly stated in the description. And all Hydra's heads are equal; a Hydra doesn't have one primary and 9 secondary heads but 10 primary heads. Number of limbs has no bearing to what natural weapons a creature has. Only thing that matters is what's written in the creature's entry and a creature that's just one straight line could have 10 natural weapons while a creature with 100 arms could have 0 (such as the Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires)).


The line simply states:
"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."

In other words, you can't use the extra limbs to gain more attacks, and you gain all the natural weapons of the creature. Nothing special, limbs and natural weapons have no dependency and as such are separate aspects of a creature and thus the two lines do not contradict each other.


Buffs take more spells and time to cast. Greater magic fang is fine if the polymorph is permanent or semi-permanent (b/c it targets a single natural weapon). Bull's strength OTOH is a waste of a round IMO; at best it's a trade-off. Gear melds into the new form, unless the campaign has a town that sells discount hydra barding. Something DMs should be wary of even if the PCs do find convoluted way to explain it. Finally, your starting point is often half your level in CR. That's a lot of buffs just to get it up to par when often similar buffs could make a regular PC even better.

Bull's Strength is 10 min/level; on higher levels, you can easily cast it before entering a dungeon and have it last all day. And since we're talking about PAO which is easy to make permanent (even if not, it lasts a long time with any care in choosing the forms), Greater Magic Fang is trivially available.


EDIT: Dragon CR is about 2/3 their HD, and they're already a poor choice for raw power (w/o special strategic uses), so 2/3 may be a more accurate number. Still a long way to buff.

Again, Dragons are poor choices simply because their physical stats don't scale as fast as their HD does. Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids and other generally low HD types (that is, martial creatures with good BAB progression that are not "boss types" and thus don't have extra HD for HP) tend to provide the best bang for your buck. Averages matter not at all since there's little reason to use anything but the most efficient form for the job.

dspeyer
2010-07-26, 08:25 PM
Except that PaO is exempt from the HD rule. It gives shrew->manticore as an example. Also pebble->human (and pebbles have no HD).