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Defiant
2010-07-22, 12:22 AM
Hi,

The special abilities are obvious. However, what's not obvious is things like ability boosts. What ability boosts does a Nymph have? + to CHA, DEX, and WIS, it seems, but I don't know how much to which. Plus, what other boosts are there, and such...

Any help?

faceroll
2010-07-22, 12:24 AM
How playable is playable?

HunterOfJello
2010-07-22, 12:31 AM
First things first, a Nymph has 6 racial hit die and a +7 level adjustment. That means that a Nymph under the Core Rules counts as a lvl 13 player right off the bat.

A Nymph can cast spells as a lvl 7 Druid, but it's still casting at about half their total level with the other 6 levels only giving them a half-way decent aura and gaze attack. The character will also have the problem of only have 6 hit die while standing next to lvl 13 characters who have 13 hit die.

Are you sure you want to play a Nymph?


~

Maybe you should check out the different monster races in Savage Species and see if one of those fits your fancy, before setting your mind on playing a Nymph.


There's also the option of playing a Half-Fey character. They get wings, bonuses to ability scores and lots of bonuses as their hit die increases for the cost of only +2 LA. That's a much smaller cost than the loss you get as a Nymph.

~


Oh! I almost forgot about the Half-Nymph template. This would probably be much better for a character.

You can find it on this page (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf).

For a +2 LA you get bonuses to multiple stats (Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4) along with Low-Light Vision, and an Awesome Beauty ability that works similar to a Nymph's.

A Half-Nymph Elf could be a great character to play as a Nymph-type.

Defiant
2010-07-22, 12:36 AM
Disclaimer: ignore the idea of hit dice and LA

Just... ignore the ramifications, and help me stat it out in terms of what abilities and stuff isn't clearly defined in the entry.

(There's a reason, and yes, I do realize that by RAW, it's not a good idea)

Ranos
2010-07-22, 12:41 AM
Just give it 7 racial hit dice instead of 6, remove the LA or maybe give it a +1, allow its casting to stack with druid casting. You're basically a druid that loses level-appropriate wildshape and animal companion for nymph abilities. Seems balanced to me.

Balanced with druid, that is. So still very strong, but hey, it's 3.5.


Might want to make her abilities stop working when polymorphed as well, since it's all tied to her physical form. No stunningly beautiful megaraptor.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-22, 12:43 AM
Alright then, ignoring everything related to playability, I think monsters all start with 10 and 11 for their base stats and then have their bonuses added. (This is a quick assumption from looking at the Ogre and Illithid.)

Consider that with the fact that all ability bonuses occur with even numbers, a Nymph would have +6 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wix, +8 Cha.

~
So assuming:
1. All scores start at 10 or 11
and
2. The score then increases by an even numbered modifier

Str 10 = 10 (with no adjustment)
Dex 17 = 11 + 6 (an even number adjustment)
Con 12 = 10 + 2 (an even number adjustment)
Int 16 = 10 + 6 (ditto)
Wis 17 = 11 + 6 (same again)
Cha 19 = 11 + 8 (you get the picture)

Defiant
2010-07-22, 12:51 AM
I see... Thanks, that looks good (had trouble discerning the high and low scores because of the two 17s).

Basically my character, due to some weird magic, is going to keep changing races. Currently he's a nymph. Meaning he'll get access to all those special abilities, and potentially gain bonuses to abilities as you stated. But the DM may overrule that it may be too strong.

We're fairly lenient on everything anyways, so you never know though.



EDIT: Actually, wouldn't the Elite Array be more appropriate? Or something similar?

a_humble_lich
2010-07-22, 12:57 AM
I agree with what has been said, and I'd suggest using the Nymph race/class here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8167378&postcount=278

To answer you actual question though, in core a nymph has:

+6 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, and +8 Cha

7 HD of Fey

Blinding beauty, stunning glance (Both DC 1/2 HD + Cha bonus), Unearthly grace (You can add your cha bonus to your AC and saves), +8 to swim and can always take 10 on a swim check, a swim movement of 20', wild empathy with a +6 bonus, DR 10/cold iron, low light vision, and casts spells as a 7th level druid.


Ninja'd!

And yes an elite array would make more sense, but according to core monsters all role 10 and 11. In your case I might talk to the GM and figure out more reasonable bonuses using an elite array.

Mando Knight
2010-07-22, 01:25 AM
And yes an elite array would make more sense, but according to core monsters all role 10 and 11. In your case I might talk to the GM and figure out more reasonable bonuses using an elite array.

Given the total ECL adjustment, those are reasonable racial bonuses. Maybe even on the weak side. On top of that, Fey HD are fairly weak even for racial HD, bearing only 1/2 BAB and d6 HD, and no free proficiencies other than Simple (which almost everyone gets anyway)... the only real positives are the 6+ Int skill points/level and two high saves. Far stronger HD to get stuck with are ones like Outsider and Dragon, which grant full BAB, all good saves, decent racial features, good HD size (or great, considering Dragon's d12), and a high number of skill points per HD (6+ Int for Dragons, 8+ Int for Outsiders)

a_humble_lich
2010-07-22, 01:42 AM
I agree given the LA those are reasonable bonuses. But it sounds like the OP is more polymorphed into that form, with the possibility of gaining the bonuses without the LA. In that case, I think they are too high.

Defiant
2010-07-22, 06:51 PM
I think I'll just stick with these bonuses then :smallbiggrin:

My group wants me to be a nymph now anyways :smalltongue:

And if they're too much, my race is going to change again with the next planar shift anyways, so it doesn't matter too much.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-22, 07:10 PM
Alright then, ignoring everything related to playability, I think monsters all start with 10 and 11 for their base stats and then have their bonuses added. (This is a quick assumption from looking at the Ogre and Illithid.) It's Explicitly Defined (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMonsterPCs), actually.

Defiant
2010-07-22, 07:24 PM
It's Explicitly Defined (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMonsterPCs), actually.

Hurray! Specific SRD quote! I love those :smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2010-07-22, 07:31 PM
Hurray! Specific SRD quote! I love those :smallsmile:Yes... and if you keep getting Plane Shifted, that one will become progressively more useful.

Although there *are* a few critters that don't follow the 10's/11's base bit... usually low-LA humanoids that have the non-elite array instead. These are explicitly noted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm) - check the last line of the Orc entry, just before it starts in on the half-orc.

nedz
2010-07-22, 07:32 PM
Actually MM p7 states that Advanced creatures are built using the Elite Array. The Nymph would seem to fall into this catagory, but I'm having trouble with the reverse engineering.

Runestar
2010-07-22, 07:39 PM
Nymph actually seems fairly viable even for its ECL assuming your DM can keep you fed with a steady diet of humanoid opponents. Or at least according to what I have been led to believe from this excerpt, which consists of a fighter, 2 wizards and a nymph PC.


But, seriously, the second party absolutely controlled combats. I remember one encounter involved them getting surrounded and ambushed by a group of Gythanki bandits on a barren stretch of an unfamiliar plane with the only terrain feature being the Mercenary and Pacifist Sphinx that they were riding who decided to take a nap when the action started. Being surrounded by enemies (two of which had ninja levels which we all know are deadly against wizards who haven't got detect invisible up!) would seem to be a tricky encounter, especially with no walls to use blocking out enemies. But the party quickly readjusted to the situation, rushed one side of the fight, disabling as many as possible before covering themselves with solid fog to prevent retaliation. The enemies wanted to avoid clumping together, so they kept spread apart while the party "fog cloud jumped" attacking one or two at a time before going after another. At one point in the fight every single Gith was stunned, held or tripped and there was at least 8 of them. In fact, the party only ended up killing one of them when the Nymph cdged one of the held opponents. She felt really guilty about that, particularly her player after I mercilessly added three minutes of gory details to the "Merciless display of cruelty". Good times.

Grumman
2010-07-22, 07:39 PM
Actually MM p7 states that Advanced creatures are built using the Elite Array. The Nymph would seem to fall into this catagory,
No, it would not. At all. And I don't know why you'd think it does. The example Nymph has nothing but Nymph racial HD. No class levels at all.

nedz
2010-07-22, 07:50 PM
No, it would not. At all. And I don't know why you'd think it does. The example Nymph has nothing but Nymph racial HD. No class levels at all.

I could be wrong, but it can be hard to tell.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-22, 07:50 PM
Actually MM p7 states that Advanced creatures are built using the Elite Array. The Nymph would seem to fall into this catagory, but I'm having trouble with the reverse engineering.
PC class level advanced is not the printed, default state. That's included when the critter also has class levels (Such as with the Ogre Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm)). Also of note is that it's not actually accurate - if you reverse engineer the Greater Stone Golem to the Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem), you'll find that the only thing that changed on the base stats of the critter was from a Size Change (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), and the saves, save DC, HP, and BAB that go with the difference in hit dice.

Runestar
2010-07-22, 07:56 PM
Actually MM p7 states that Advanced creatures are built using the Elite Array. The Nymph would seem to fall into this catagory, but I'm having trouble with the reverse engineering.

Not really. It is creatures with class lvs which get the elite stat array for free. Normal creatures such as the nymph are assumed to use the base 10/11 stat array.

Draz74
2010-07-22, 08:48 PM
So the rule about giving the Elite Array to monsters means, if you take an NPC Nymph and add class levels, adjust her ability scores like so:

+4, +3, +2, +2, +0, -2

... to turn 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 into 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-22, 08:50 PM
So the rule about giving the Elite Array to monsters means, if you take an NPC Nymph and add class levels, adjust her ability scores like so:

+4, +3, +2, +2, +0, -2

... to turn 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 into 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

Not exactly, but close enough.

Draz74
2010-07-22, 08:55 PM
Not exactly, but close enough.

Right, I'm fudging away some details about which stats were 11s and which were 10s. But as you said, close enough for anyone who was confused by the details of the full process.