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View Full Version : Solo Games, and the punishment for death



Sir
2010-07-22, 01:36 AM
I play a solo free form-ish game with my brother in a modified Ebberon. Among other things, he has doused a god (The Silver flame) for thirty seconds, killed a daelkyr and made him his vampire, made friends with the Lord of Blades and the king of Durgon, took many secrets from the city of gold, and killed a Quori. As you can tell, we have been playing for almost two years, and play whenever we have time since I don't use dice for all but the most important things.

But, I have run into a problem. When he dies, he has his DMPC friends resurrect him with no difficulties, since they are all rich. I tried taking his money for his resurrects, but the only thing he values money for is upgrading his fortress and thus doesn't really care. He has a huge battle with the lords of the dust (Rakasha) upcoming, and I kinda want him to be really punished for making a mistake, but what is worse than death?

So my big question is thus; how do you punish players in solo games that die? Specifically in a free-formish one.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-22, 02:00 AM
Well, what's your intention? To create a permanent death effect for him? Or to create a death that is difficult to undo?


Next time he dies, I would have him get stuck in an after-life dimension where the Silver Flame lives/is from/controls. Have a messenger of the Silver Flame tell him that there is a way to leave the dimension and return to his living body, but it requires some sort of tasks to be completed that teach him some sort of lesson in lawful goodness.


If you want to perma-kill him, have him get aged to death. There aren't any anti-aging spells in dnd that I'm aware of. Even druids die of old age.

mjames
2010-07-22, 02:04 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love a long game with lots of story,but after a while it is time to retire a character. Part of the fun of the game is becoming different people (or fey or dragons or whatever) and if you play a character too long he is probably just an exageration of yourself. It's somewhat DM fiat, but choose a specific destiny for him that his character either can't or doesn't want to get out of.

If the character is truly amazing,make him a god or demi-god. Or for another perspective have a follower/friend of the enemy have him re-incarnated. Then the character dies, but the essence of him can't be put back.

stenver
2010-07-22, 03:55 AM
You can just punish him by making him lose all his fortune and banishing him into some outer plane. Far away from home. And make it a quest for him to get back to home.. without any equipment, in a hostile environment, where money means everything, but money is scarce.. and he doesnt have any, needs to work his a** off to get even a few silver pieces, but needs it in huge amounts if he hopes to ever escape. There, money becomes valuable.

Maybe the plane lord holds him hostage there, allowing him to leave only for XXXXXXX amount of gold, or maybe a planeshift spell scroll is ridicilusly overpriced, or maybe passage on a ship is so damn dangerous that only the rich folk can afford him, or maybe, noone trusts this strange outsider and everyone demands x100 times the price for pretty much everything.

Hows that for a punishment?

Ranos
2010-07-22, 03:58 AM
Yeah, that's the problem with freeform. No meaningful challenge. I'd second retiring the character after his huge battle is done.

Aroka
2010-07-22, 04:46 AM
Why does he even have something better than raise dead available? I thought Eberron was very spare on high-level NPCs?

Your best and most obvious option is to punish him with level loss (even though it's a horrible PITA to work out unless you make a new sheet every time you level up - which is generally worth it in D&D, frankly).

If the main threat in the game is to his life, you have to make death stick (but then the game's over) or have a permanent effect.

The other, far superior alternative would have been to run a game where death isn't even the main danger, but at this point that may be too late. Generally, though, there are far more story-rewarding things to threaten PCs with, and all they require is that you get the player to care about the world, which you should be doing anyway. If you're running freeform, this is especially true - death as a threat makes no sense in that kind of game.

Tshern
2010-07-22, 07:58 AM
Yeah, that's the problem with freeform. No meaningful challenge. I'd second retiring the character after his huge battle is done.
Have you actually played freeform? I play freeform way more than D&D and I have had plenty of meaningful challenge in every single game.

Thinker
2010-07-22, 08:07 AM
Have you actually played freeform? I play freeform way more than D&D and I have had plenty of meaningful challenge in every single game.

I doubt it.

Eldan
2010-07-22, 08:37 AM
Eberron has the problem that normally, after death, you go to Hades (well, it's not called that, but it basically is) and hang around there as a shade until your soul is eaten. Pretty bleak.

One way out I could think of: planar convergence.
It is a strange time in Eberron: a particular constellation of planes which only happens once every few million years has occurred once more. The recently dead are not brought to Dolurrh, where they would normally end up, but find themselves as pale shadows of themselves, walking the material plane, imbued with strange powers over thought and matter.


Or, to make it short: if you have it, bring in Ghostwalk. It's an interesting (sub)-setting that can be integrated in another one.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 08:40 AM
Why does he even have something better than raise dead available? I thought Eberron was very spare on high-level NPCs?

Why does he have filthy rich DMPC friends who are willing to soak the costs for repeated true rezzes?

This doesn't seem the slightest bit realistic/reasonable. If it's his money every time...he'll care, at least somewhat. Also, I find it reasonable to point out that giant fortresses don't maintain themselves for free.

Project_Mayhem
2010-07-22, 09:00 AM
Better than the planer convergence, have the death plane become remote. This makes resurrections and the like really hard. You have to go there yourself. Then have him play the npc rescuing him. Solid adventure hook

Eorran
2010-07-22, 11:21 AM
Why does he have a bunch of DMPCs ready to ressurect him for no cost? If money's no object, something should be. Make a cost for ressurection - not necessarily gold. How about favours, or magic items, or whatnot?

arrowhen
2010-07-22, 11:47 AM
So after two years of adolescent power fantasies you suddenly want his actions to have consequences?

Yeah, expect some resistance there.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 11:51 AM
Hell, once you're at that level, how DO you die?

Rixx
2010-07-22, 01:14 PM
Crank that Soul Jar, boy

Ranos
2010-07-22, 01:18 PM
Or that sphere of annihilation.

Manga Maniac
2010-07-22, 01:43 PM
Have the rich people go bankrupt so they can't rez him (or just anyway of stopping them from paying for him to rez). After all, it is the credit crunch.

Failing that, put some sort of limit on how many times he can die.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 01:56 PM
Or that sphere of annihilation.

Well, that'll fix rezzing.

super dark33
2010-07-22, 02:23 PM
the gray cowl of nocturnel (http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Cowl_of_Nocturnal) . u make the player to find it. when he check what it does he find that its gives +4 to the dex,
it has detect life to 65 feet and add 15 do sneak and hide.
but he isnt able to know that- its make everyone forget who you are, and think that he is a dengerus criminal. {of cours he cant remove it, only by promoting somone else (above level 15) to wear it.

Project_Mayhem
2010-07-22, 05:59 PM
Crank that Soul Jar, boy

An armed response team has been dispatched to your location

UndeadCleric
2010-07-22, 08:14 PM
I doubt it.

Wow, such a compelling argument.

Flame of Anor
2010-07-22, 08:22 PM
Why does he have a bunch of DMPCs ready to ressurect him for no cost? If money's no object, something should be. Make a cost for ressurection - not necessarily gold. How about favours, or magic items, or whatnot?

That's it--have some secret assassin or something start killing off his rich friends! Creep him the heck out.

Ilmryn
2010-07-22, 08:25 PM
So my big question is thus; how do you punish players in solo games that die? Specifically in a free-formish one.

If he dies, that will probably mean he has failed to stop the BBEG. Put him in a situation where his character can't afford to fail. If he dies, have him be ressurected 10 years later into a bleak and devastated world ruled by the evil he failed to stop.:smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2010-07-22, 08:33 PM
Let me count the ways...

Assassinate the allies that keep bringing him back.
(Assuming 3.5 or similar)
Permanent Total Disablement spells and effects (Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm), Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm), Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm), Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm), and similar - there's actually a fair number of them)
Raise his corpse as an undead and bury it somewhere (See Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm), Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm), and True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) to confirm this aspect will work).
Certain monsters don't always let go of the soul (see the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) for an example).

Sir
2010-07-22, 10:27 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions! Since the lords of dust are manipulators, I will have him be mind controlled if he dies, and wreak some serious havoc, which will be very interesting :smallamused:. I really like the other ones though, especially making him pay other things or banishing him to another plane. And I can't just retire him, since it is the only way to get him to play.

Thinker
2010-07-22, 10:40 PM
Wow, such a compelling argument.

As is your's.

Project_Mayhem
2010-07-23, 08:08 AM
As is your's.

No seriously man think about it. He says that he's had some fun challenging games playing freeform. Your response is essentially - 'You're lying or stupid'

I'm assuming that you haven't played freeform much. Or have a DM who isn't good at making it challenging. That's fair. However, it doesn't give you justification to belittle his gaming experiences.

Freeform certainly requires more work to make fair and challenging, but if you have a DM who's good at it, it can work very well. The most challenging, and therefore imo rewarding, game I've played was a semi freeform Mage the Awakening game that lasted for 2 years. We cut most of the dice out of the system, and adjudicated results realistically based on character and stats.

Thinker
2010-07-23, 09:04 AM
No seriously man think about it. He says that he's had some fun challenging games playing freeform. Your response is essentially - 'You're lying or stupid'
I don't feel the need to create a constructive response to these allegations.

Project_Mayhem
2010-07-23, 10:00 AM
Oh fair does; I was under the impression we were having reasonable discussion. Never mind then.

Thinker
2010-07-23, 10:04 AM
Oh fair does; I was under the impression we were having reasonable discussion. Never mind then.

What's so fun about being reasonable?

Flame of Anor
2010-07-23, 10:56 AM
Oh fair does; I was under the impression we were having reasonable discussion. Never mind then.

Ah, my constant refrain... :smallsigh:

Project_Mayhem
2010-07-23, 11:33 AM
Ah, my constant refrain...

I know what you mean ... (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1863#comic)


Jokes.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-23, 02:45 PM
I don't feel the need to create a constructive response to these allegations.

What's so fun about being reasonable?


Now I think I might have some idea about why you never find a meaningful challenge in free-form...

But seriously, normally I do agree with you. How do you determine event outcomes in free-form? When the BBEG sends a magical bolt of pure evil at you, how do you determine if you dodge/resist? etc. I have wanted to play free-form at times, but I have always given up when the going got tough, because well, I don't know to adjudicate these things!

Thinker
2010-07-23, 02:52 PM
Now I think I might have some idea about why you never find a meaningful challenge in free-form...


Oh snap! I just got told!

Ranos
2010-07-23, 03:01 PM
Now I think I might have some idea about why you never find a meaningful challenge in free-form...

But seriously, normally I do agree with you. How do you determine event outcomes in free-form? When the BBEG sends a magical bolt of pure evil at you, how do you determine if you dodge/resist? etc. I have wanted to play free-form at times, but I have always given up when the going got tough, because well, I don't know to adjudicate these things!

-"I shot you !"
-"No you didn't, I'm wearing a bulletproof vest !"
-"Yeah, well my bullets go through bulletproof vests !"

At least that's how it went in elementary school. Hopefully, it's slightly better in most freeform games above that age.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-23, 03:02 PM
Oh snap! I just got told!

:smalltongue: You want some more of my rapier wit? */sarcasm*

arrowhen
2010-07-23, 03:31 PM
The BBEG doesn't shoot his evilbolt at you, he shoots it at your unconsious lover. Do you take the hit for her and let the villain escape or let her die in order to carry out your mission?

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-23, 03:35 PM
The BBEG doesn't shoot his evilbolt at you, he shoots it at your unconsious lover. Do you take the hit for her and let the villain escape or let her die in order to carry out your mission?

Seriously? So you never have any head-to-head confrontations, and the PCs are like nigh invincible macguffins? :smallsigh: I was hoping for more than that. I mean, these situations are all well and good, but they shouldn't be the bread and butter of your conflict.

arrowhen
2010-07-23, 03:52 PM
My freeform experiences have all been GM-less collaborative writing projects where everyone's focus is more "our story" rather than "my character". Conflicts - which were *rarely* combats - were won or lost based on what was best for the story.

elonin
2010-07-23, 03:53 PM
the gray cowl of nocturnel (http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Cowl_of_Nocturnal) . u make the player to find it. when he check what it does he find that its gives +4 to the dex,
it has detect life to 65 feet and add 15 do sneak and hide.
but he isn't able to know that- its make everyone forget who you are, and think that he is a dangerous criminal. {of course he cant remove it, only by promoting someone else (above level 15) to wear it.

Love the Oblivion reference but you'd have to change it from the way it was there to work as described here. In the game there was nothing keeping you from simply telling someone who you were. Then again....

As a DM you have more say about resurrection than you are likely aware of. Gods don't like mortals presuming on their relationship. If this guy has been acting as though death is a revolving door higher powers take notice. And if he has upset the pantheon they can simply say no to the granting of that spell (though not stated a higher level spell like true res requires a diety sign off). If such high level spells are available trap the soul exists and he has certainly made enemies. That prevents resurrection.

Thieves
2010-07-23, 04:26 PM
Well, my favourite setting for almost all stories is getting terribly sidetracked in your afterlife trip, resulting in you having to get out of Hell. It gives you 100% reasonability-transcending control over what things the character meets there, and playing while not knowing what to expect keeps a player up on his guard. Refreshing if he's got too reliant on, bored with or certain of his worldly power.

Soo, +1 to getting back from hell.

Project_Mayhem
2010-07-23, 05:43 PM
Well in my semi-free form game, if person x is throwing a deadly bolt at person y, then we would look at how good person x is at throwing bolts and how good person y is at dodging. If it's very tight, then a dice would probably be chucked to adjudicate.

That would be more difficult in hardcore freeform - I don't have any experience there. I guess the story thing would come in

Dr.Epic
2010-07-23, 06:49 PM
Worse than death for a PC? A change in the way that character acts: they can't play a certain alignment or have to behave this way.

Roland St. Jude
2010-07-23, 07:16 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here.

Flame of Anor
2010-07-24, 01:31 AM
I know what you mean ... (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1863#comic)


Jokes.

High-five for reading SMBC! :smallbiggrin:

Jarawara
2010-07-24, 02:05 AM
On the subject of free-form and challenges:

I've been running an eight year long campaign, and while we 'officially' use 3.0, we often dispense with the rules and adjucate the situation freeform.

However, the key to the campaign is that the solutions to problems are to be found in the roleplay. It's not been a case of rolling dice and casting spells to defeat the villians... it's been figuring out where the villians are. The actual fight is easy, once you can find them.

It's not been rolling saving throws and dealing with the effects of traps and barriers... it's been figuring out what the traps and puzzles are, and solving them.

It's not been a quest to defeat the BBEG. Well, ok, it has been. But it's been a quest to figure out what the BBEG really is, and to figure out what to do when you finally do face the BBEG. And it's been a choice of what are the players willing to do, willing to give up, to defeat the BBEG.

Once they finally figured out who and what they were up against, the actual defeat of the BBEG didn't really need to be diced out. They simply had to choose right, and win. Or choose wrong, and face the consequences.

It's been a long, tough, challenging campaign, and I'm proud of my players. They choose... wisely.

*~*~*

On the subject of a good punishment, to replace 'death':

In that same campaign, I found we tended to avoid too many PC deaths, especially when we were free-forming it. But players make mistakes, so how do you punish them?

Well, the roleplay was rather extensive in our games, to the point that the NPC's were friends of theirs. They knew the people in town, they had several NPC's along with them on their journeys, the players grew to like the NPCs and rely on the aid the NPC's could offer.

So when the PC's screw up, and yes, they did so on a regular enough basis, I can 'punish' them by killing an NPC instead. Or driving the NPC away from them, even into the hands of the enemy. That way, the 'storyline' continues, but without their friend or faithful ally, and they know it was their mistake.

A classic example of this occured early on: Party of four PC's enter an old forgotten temple. Two NPC's, a caravaner and his sidekick, accompany the party into the courtyard. There's a big statue holding an axe high over his head, in the middle of the courtyard. PC's are supposed to being doing 'adventuring' stuff, and keeping the caravaners out of danger zone. But they don't, and one of the caravaners approaches the statue (I give several descriptions of him approaching, several subtle warnings, but they don't pay attention)... axe chops downward, a whole NPC becomes a pair of halflings, and general sadness ensues.

A later example comes up, right near the end of the storyline. Fatil Bloger has been accompanying the party of late. Fatil Bloger is dead. Long story short, he died by falling to his death, because no one was there to catch him, to stop his fall. So now, his restless spirit accompanies the party as they traverse their way through hell, to their final faceoff with the Dark Lord. Just before the final showdown, there is a big fight scene with the last of the minions. Fatil helps out by leaping into the fight (he's good at leaping, kinda a special power of his), but he tries to leap across the pit of flame, only to find that all special powers fail him - and he begins to fall into the flames of hell and damnation.

Jaran catches him before he falls. A precarious scene plays out as Jaran holds desperately to Fatil, (who's know as 'Fat' Bloger for a reason), while minions still beset the party from all sides. Jaran does not lose his grip on Fatil, and pulls the (still dead) man back out of the pit. Battle is won, Fatil is left shaking in fear, but looking at Jaran saying over and over again, "You didn't let go. You didn't let me fall. You didn't let go."

I had set up Fatil Bloger to be a future minor BBEG, after he 'escapes' from the pits of hell at some point in the future. He would have been a minor villian, but a serious challenge to Jaran, and a major hate-fest pointed Jaran's way for letting him fall. But Jaran choose to hold on, to save an already dead man from falling, even as he was threatened by combat on all sides. As a result, he'll not have his own personal BBEG to worry about in the future, and maybe even have an alley, should their paths cross again one day.

Choices affect outcomes. NPC's live and die and come and go, based on those outcomes. And the PC's benefit by having those NPC's stay alive and happy, so the more people they can keep safe and healthy, the more allies they have for the future. Make mistakes, lose friends and allies.

You could go an entire campaign without PC deaths, but still the players can feel their actions affect the outcome, feel the fear of victory and defeat.

*~*~*

On the specifics of the OP's post. Uhhh... it's a solo campaign, with two people, right? One DM, one player, yes? But you speak as if you're the DM, yet when the player's character dies, he has "one of his DMPC buddies ressurect him"? Wait... how does he have a DMPC if he's the player? Or is he the DM? And if so, then an NPC is raising an NPC... and you'll obviously not have any say in the matter (nor should it matter to you).

Or am I misunderstanding?