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WarKitty
2010-07-22, 12:41 PM
Ok here's the deal. Druids are supposed to hate undead creatures as unnatural, right? (My DM is insisting on this, although the details of how to handle it are up to me.) Well, I personally love playing druids, I have one statted out for an upcoming campaign. One of our other players loves necromancers and has statted out a CN necromancer.

Now, I don't think it's fair to either of us that one of us has to give up the character we want to play, especially since the campaign revolves around inherited items that really make those the optimal choice for each of us (one is druid-specific, one is undead-specific). Nor do I want to push the party to PvP or other such things. However, the more I look into it the less workable it looks. Trying to change these classes would basically be demanding one player give up access to a powerful magic item while every other character has one.

My question: how do you work out a druid handling undead? Or even LG character around undead? Is there a good alternate way of handling things that doesn't entail this antipathy?

Jergmo
2010-07-22, 12:49 PM
There's a very simple solution.

Have the Necromancer not animate undead minions. There are plenty of other options available to an Arcane Necromancer.

WarKitty
2010-07-22, 12:51 PM
There's a very simple solution.

Have the Necromancer not animate undead minions. There are plenty of other options available to an Arcane Necromancer.

The passed on item is specific to animating undead, unfortunately. Also this is actually a cleric based class (which we need, he's our party healer).

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 12:51 PM
There is an undead druid in Champions of Ruin (who, unlike all other Faerun druids, draws his power from nature rather than a deity.)

So if you can have an undead druid, maybe you can have a druid with a tolerance for undead?

Zore
2010-07-22, 12:54 PM
I never understood why druids were so vehemently against undead anyways when positive energy channeling is just as unnatural.

stenver
2010-07-22, 12:54 PM
just ask his character what the hell is he doing if he raises someone, completely object to it and if he wont see your way, PK him. Easy.

Jallorn
2010-07-22, 12:59 PM
You might be able to play an undead druid. I dunno though, clear it with your DM (yes, there is a feat that gives an undead druid wildshaping back)

WarKitty
2010-07-22, 01:04 PM
You might be able to play an undead druid. I dunno though, clear it with your DM (yes, there is a feat that gives an undead druid wildshaping back)

I'm not actually going to be undead...we just have an undead-minion based necromancer cleric in the party with a druid.

And I am NOT invoking pvp here, no matter what "my character would do."

Alleine
2010-07-22, 01:46 PM
Work something out with a necromancer IC. Say you have a deal with him, realizing the necessity of raising undead creatures for the time being while acknowledging their unnatural state. He gets to create undead minions, but after a certain amount of time passes, he releases them from his service and they get destroyed.

Or, you know, find a different agreement that works out better.
You're a druid, just by being a part of this you get to be the guiding hand that makes sure no permanent damage to nature happens.

Optimystik
2010-07-22, 01:51 PM
I always thought druids hated Aberrations and Constructs more than Undead. That's really the cleric's bag.

JBento
2010-07-22, 01:58 PM
I don't see why druids would have bigger problems with undead than they would with Raise Deads and Ressurections - less, in fact, if you're dealing with non-muderous, incorporeal undead (i.e., non-murderous ghosts are ok, but shadows and wraiths are right out).

On LG characters, or even merely Good characters, there IS no way around it, as WotC seems to have decided in what appears a rather arbitrarily manner that undead are Evil.

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:00 PM
It was more in early D&D books like Black Wizards- where the army of the undead causes animals to flee in terror and plants to die, is incredibly "unnatural" and the druids rally to fight it.

Given that there are quite a few "natural constructs" that druids can make- I think it's mostly Aberrations that druids really hate.



On LG characters, or even merely Good characters, there IS no way around it, as WotC seems to have decided in what appears a rather arbitrarily manner that undead are Evil.

There are still a few true undead that either aren't Evil (revenants are always Neutral, Curst are always CN) or, while mostly evil, can be nonevil- Libris Mortis mentions mummies in particular as reasonable for nonevil Undead characters.

Heck, in some D&D novels, there are undead paladins (typically ones who failed in life, and are on a quest in death to earn redemption).

sciencepanda
2010-07-22, 02:01 PM
See, I would play this up as part of the story. Make it so that the druid and the necromancer have personal issues that they need to get past if they want to succeed in their mission.

A little argument between PC's isn't always a bad thing.

Theodoriph
2010-07-22, 02:04 PM
Roleplay gradually falling in love with one of the necromancer's bony henchman and how the kindness and compassion he showed for you forever changes your view of the undead.

When some enemy puts your love to rest again, you can go mad with grief, renouncing your former nature and championing the cause of necromancy!

Connington
2010-07-22, 02:08 PM
Lich-Loved really isn't that great of a feat Theo...

Theodoriph
2010-07-22, 02:11 PM
Lich-Loved really isn't that great of a feat Theo...

The sex acts don't have to be perverted! I always found that adjective hilarious. Is committing normal sex acts with undead ok?


[Reference - BVD]: By repeatedly committing perverted sex acts with the undead, the character gains dread powers.


Anyway, it'd serve his DM right...

Dr.Epic
2010-07-22, 02:15 PM
I never understood why druids were so vehemently against undead anyways when positive energy channeling is just as unnatural.

I don't get this either. So long as they're not good, I don't see why a druid has to hate undead.

Ranos
2010-07-22, 02:18 PM
Why are you in a party ? Do you have history together ? Did you already save each other's lives ? Then druidic tradition be damned, if he's a friend, and he's a good guy, you defend him. You fight off your family, your clan, your mentors, all for the sake of forbidden love friendship.

Or not. But it makes for a cool plot hook.

WarKitty
2010-07-22, 02:19 PM
Why are you in a party ? Do you have history together ? Did you already save each other's lives ? Then druidic tradition be damned, if he's a friend, and he's a good guy, you defend him. You fight off your family, your clan, your mentors, all for the sake of forbidden love friendship.

Or not. But it makes for a cool plot hook.

You actually have a point there. Both characters are the "children" of previous characters and party members, so it would stand to reason they grew up together. Might work that into it.

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:26 PM
Start of Darkness does mention one reason for druids disliking corporeal undead- from a druid's point of view corpses should be moldering in the ground, contributing the nutrients they're made of back to the world.

That said, given that there are much more unnatural things than undead, and bigger problems, druids probably place them fairly low on the priority list.

Given that they don't "Fall for associating with people who offend against their moral code" the presence of an undead-maker isn't going to matter as much to the druid- especially if they are a friend.

Optimystik
2010-07-22, 02:34 PM
Given that there are quite a few "natural constructs" that druids can make- I think it's mostly Aberrations that druids really hate.

I agree that their aberration hate is stronger (mainly explored in Eberron), but Druids do get anti-construct spells like Crumble all the same.

WarKitty
2010-07-22, 03:47 PM
Ugh I just looked at our thread...we have 2 LG characters playing. Somehow this has all the marks of turning out badly.

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 03:52 PM
There are Lawful Good characters who can tolerate undead- especially if they grew up around them. Kaarnath in Eberron might be a good example of such a place.

They wouldn't be common, and they'd probably dislike the undead, but not enough to reject an otherwise admirable party member.

Critical
2010-07-22, 04:05 PM
Ugh I just looked at our thread...we have 2 LG characters playing. Somehow this has all the marks of turning out badly.
PK! PK! PK!

:smallbiggrin:

On the other hand, what's your druid's alignment? My bet is, that TN, CN, NE druids shouldn't care much.

Anyway, my guess is that since druids have some necromancy spells on their spell lists, they shouldn't hate undead.

Nero24200
2010-07-22, 04:51 PM
Druids hate undead because they are a perversion of life and an unnatrual means of allowing negative energy to continiously flow into the material plane - that is the fluff behind it. Arguing that "It's okay for druids to like undead" isn't really any different from trying to justify them liking abberrations or even constructs (since, as many people were happy to point out in a recent necromancy thread, most constructs are similer to undead except that they rely on elemental energy rather than negative energy).

I say talk with the Necromancer - Who came up with their character ideas first? It's the player's job to make a party that will work together - That means no pacifists in a party of blood-thirsty barbarians, no CE baby-eaters in the party of paladins and no unnaturals working the druid. I would strongly encourage you one of you to try something different and save one of the conceapts for another campaign - since even if you don't start off at each other's throats it could still ignite something later.

It should be noted as well that druids do not get ressurection magic, the cloest they get is Reincarnate. In fact a creature turned into an undead is specifically listed as a creature that cannot be reincarnated within the spell entry.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-22, 05:00 PM
I never understood why druids were so vehemently against undead anyways when positive energy channeling is just as unnatural.
One Is All and All Is One.
When we die, out bodies are returned to the earth, eating by insects and scavengers, broken down by fungi and bacteria, taken up by plants, which are eaten by animals which are eaten by other animals, which die and start the process over again.
An undead steps outside that chain of existence, that circle of life.
That is why most druids, even neutral evil ones, would find undead abhorrent.
And yes, they may very well find overuse of channelling positive energy just as abhorrent.
At least that's how I would justify it.

WarKitty
2010-07-22, 05:01 PM
Druids hate undead because they are a perversion of life and an unnatrual means of allowing negative energy to continiously flow into the material plane - that is the fluff behind it. Arguing that "It's okay for druids to like undead" isn't really any different from trying to justify them liking abberrations or even constructs (since, as many people were happy to point out in a recent necromancy thread, most constructs are similer to undead except that they rely on elemental energy rather than negative energy).

I say talk with the Necromancer - Who came up with their character ideas first? It's the player's job to make a party that will work together - That means no pacifists in a party of blood-thirsty barbarians, no CE baby-eaters in the party of paladins and no unnaturals working the druid. I would strongly encourage you one of you to try something different and save one of the conceapts for another campaign - since even if you don't start off at each other's throats it could still ignite something later.

It should be noted as well that druids do not get ressurection magic, the cloest they get is Reincarnate. In fact a creature turned into an undead is specifically listed as a creature that cannot be reincarnated within the spell entry.

We all came up with character ideas independently. The problem is with our inherited magic item rule. The two most powerful items available to inherit are specific to a druid and a necromancer respectively. Demanding "no undead" would basically be saying to one player "you can't have access to the cool magic item like everyone else is getting."

Nero24200
2010-07-22, 05:10 PM
We all came up with character ideas independently. The problem is with our inherited magic item rule. The two most powerful items available to inherit are specific to a druid and a necromancer respectively. Demanding "no undead" would basically be saying to one player "you can't have access to the cool magic item like everyone else is getting."

Hmm...in this case I would speak with your DM - Especially if he is insiting on the default fluff (I.E Druids + Undead = :smallfurious:). It would be like forcing a paladin to work with an evil chaarcter and still enforcing the "don't work with evil" clause.

jiriku
2010-07-22, 05:44 PM
Why make a big deal out of it?

I mean really, your character hasn't read the Player's Handbook. He doesn't know that druids "aren't supposed to" tolerate undead. The character is more than a class-based script.

How's this?


You grew up playing alongside this fellow and became childhood friends. You both were no strangers to death and conflict, since your parents were adventurers. Neither were you strangers to the forest and the field, since they traveled often and took you with him. He gravitated to one, you to the other, but you remained fast friends and allies. True, you find walking corpses a bit disturbing, but then again, you solve most problems by summoning wild ravening beasts to tear people limb from limb -- you're hardly in a position to criticize his methods! Other druids who don't know him are quick to judge and mutter about "preserving the balance", but you consider yourself open-minded, and you've noticed that all of the corpses he animates eventually end up in the ground again anyways. Frankly, you think the druidic circle hasn't gotten as for from the values of "civilized folk" as they like to claim.

No muss, no fuss, your character just accepts him because you know him, trust him, and you don't have a moral high horse to ride on.

Rising Phoenix
2010-07-22, 05:56 PM
One Is All and All Is One.
When we die, out bodies are returned to the earth, eating by insects and scavengers, broken down by fungi and bacteria, taken up by plants, which are eaten by animals which are eaten by other animals, which die and start the process over again.
An undead steps outside that chain of existence, that circle of life.
That is why most druids, even neutral evil ones, would find undead abhorrent.
And yes, they may very well find overuse of channelling positive energy just as abhorrent.
At least that's how I would justify it.

This is bascially the fluff reasoning I use in my campaign world. It the process linear, rather than circular.

That said, what does you DM say? How does the campaign world work? Is it natural to have undead milling about?

R.P.

Superglucose
2010-07-22, 06:08 PM
Ok here's the deal. Druids are supposed to hate undead creatures as unnatural, right? (My DM is insisting on this, although the details of how to handle it are up to me.) Well, I personally love playing druids, I have one statted out for an upcoming campaign. One of our other players loves necromancers and has statted out a CN necromancer.

Now, I don't think it's fair to either of us that one of us has to give up the character we want to play, especially since the campaign revolves around inherited items that really make those the optimal choice for each of us (one is druid-specific, one is undead-specific). Nor do I want to push the party to PvP or other such things. However, the more I look into it the less workable it looks. Trying to change these classes would basically be demanding one player give up access to a powerful magic item while every other character has one.

My question: how do you work out a druid handling undead? Or even LG character around undead? Is there a good alternate way of handling things that doesn't entail this antipathy?
It's pretty simple, actually.

Well first off your Druid cannot be LG. So LG is right out.

Secondly, Druids don't believe in being wasteful. After you've killed the enemy, what are they going to do? Are you just going to leave it there? If the Necromancer is along, why not have him animate the recently dead and use them again? It's a recycling program, really.


I never understood why druids were so vehemently against undead anyways when positive energy channeling is just as unnatural.
Death is a part of nature. Undeath can be considered a perversion of nature. It makes perfect sense that druids would have an issue against undead. This is why some druids are against undead.

FelixG
2010-07-22, 06:08 PM
Its fairly simple, you were childhood friends.

Also you can be attempting to redeem him, or he can convince you that mindless undead are just tools, the only evil is the act of the master ect ect.

or you can do both, trying to convince him not to use them while at the same time you accept their are tools (if icky tools)

Safety Sword
2010-07-22, 06:19 PM
After you've killed the enemy, what are they going to do? Are you just going to leave it there? If the Necromancer is along, why not have him animate the recently dead and use them again? It's a recycling program, really.

Don't forget to separate your plastic undead from your paper undead...

Optimystik
2010-07-22, 06:27 PM
Secondly, Druids don't believe in being wasteful. After you've killed the enemy, what are they going to do? Are you just going to leave it there? If the Necromancer is along, why not have him animate the recently dead and use them again? It's a recycling program, really.

Amusingly, Xykon makes this exact same argument in SoD.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-22, 07:17 PM
So your a republican and a democrat who happen to be friends. the answer to this is in Role play not mechanic. . . PLay a normal druid however you want to play a druid and let him play his necro the same. ROLE PLAY your philosophical differences. . . it will end up an entertaining game quirk.

Druid (Bob): Darnit Frank stop raising the dead! It's unnatural and bad for nature!

Necromancy(Frank): Bob, I thought you'd like me using the skeletons of our enemies. . . I'm Recycling!

Druid (bob): Creating abominations of nature is not RECYLCLING! You have skeletons that cook for you!

Necromancy (Frank): Like teaching a Velociraptor to bring you your slippers is soo much more natural?

Fax Celestis
2010-07-22, 07:20 PM
I have this same issue in a game I play in. I have solved it by having my dwarven druid justify it as a very, very strange way of being a scavenger instead of a predator. "Use every part of the bison" and all that. Killing a creature and not making use of its remains is wasteful: the party necromancer just does so in a strange fashion.

Devils_Advocate
2010-07-23, 09:34 PM
WarKitty: I suggest asking your DM what "nature" means, with respect to Druidism, in this campaign. Because it really is a very vague term, and a philosophy centered around "nature" is very different depending on what "nature" is.

Nature, in one sense of the world, is just the world as it really is. So revering nature, in that sense, is just accepting reality in all of its terrifying beauty. Undead, then, are a part of nature simply by virtue of existing, and indeed a druid might oppose wiping out all undead in order to make the world fit with someone's ideals of how it should be. This is the traditional, old school, True Neutral role for druids as maintainers of the Balance.

The problem with that is that there are many accurate descriptions of the world; there are many ways that the world is. And preserving one status quo may be incompatible with preserving another status quo. A way in which the world is changing is a part of how the world is that is altering another part of how the world is. An ideological reshaping of the world is itself a part of the world in the event that it happens. Life, on every scale, inherently involves change, as life is a process. So if druids are meant to be maintaining the Balance, then the obvious question is which balance is the Balance.

"Natural" may also be used as an antonym of "artificial", and used to describe environments, organisms, etc. that have developed without interference by intelligent beings. The problem with druids as preservers of the wilderness, however, is that their powers are largely about bending the natural environment to their will. They make plants and animals and elements and weather and whatnot behave according to their liking instead standing back and letting things take their natural course. Two of their major class features -- animals companions and their spontaneous casting -- are about animals serving them, all domesticated-like.

Now, it could be that druids only interfere with nature in order protect nature -- that their ends justify their means. Maybe the natural world has a will of its own, which they serve, making them supernatural antibodies against civilization. "Our power is not mastery over Nature, but comes from allowing Nature to master us. The Balance of Nature is not static, but dynamic. Blah blah Cycle of Life blah blah renewal blah blah forest fires blah blah disease blah blah. Blah blah spirituality blah blah wisdom blah. In conclusion, I'd just like to say that being the bitch of a complex, all-pervasive tendency of the universe makes me so much better than you."

And the image of druids as cautious, reserved sorts hesitant to use their magic does strike me as cool, in a way. But there's a problem with this: Players generally want their characters to have cool superpowers that they can use, not that they have to refrain from using. Like requiring that paladins be reluctant to smite Evil, it's at least possible for this to make perfect sense, but that's not the issue.

It's possible to get around this problem by having lots of the encounters on-screen demand that a character use his powers after all, but go too far with that and an important part of the philosophy that drives the PC largely stop informing how the player roleplays him.

Anyway, maybe different druid sects and/or different individual druids don't all want to preserve exactly the same status quo, but instead have differing ideas about precisely which Balance ought to be protected. Maybe they each have their own idea of "nature", with these ideas related to each other more through family resemblance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_resemblance) than any single common tenet. In that case, their "shared philosophy" is just a broad way of looking at and attempting to relate to the world. And maybe a part of their shared worldview is that different sorts of druids have a tendency to balance each other out in a sort of way generally desirable to druids.


I agree that their aberration hate is stronger (mainly explored in Eberron), but Druids do get anti-construct spells like Crumble all the same.
They also get at least one spell that creates a construct (beget bogun).


So long as they're not good, I don't see why a druid has to hate undead.
Bigotry against a creature type would seem to make less sense for a Good-aligned character, not more. Druidism, on the other hand, is a Neutral religion, and as such needn't be so concerned with the dignity of sentient beings.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-24, 12:14 AM
You could use the Bone Talisman spell from the URL below.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a

Bone Talisman
Necromancy
Level: Druid 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Bone touched
Duration: 10 minutes/level or until discharged
Saving Throw: None (object)
Spell Resistance: No (object)

You channel divine power and life energy into a bone from an animal or humanoid, giving it limited power against undead. Once cast, it may be used for two purposes (decided at the time of casting).

Bone of Turning: You or another druid may present the bone in the manner of a holy symbol and use it to turn undead. The effective turning level is equal to your caster level. All normal turning effects apply. For example, if your turning level is twice the Hit Dice of the turned undead, they are destroyed instead of turned. After one turn attempt, the bone talisman loses its power (but you can cast the spell on it again).

Bone Weapon: The bone is treated as a weapon that deals +1d6 damage to undead creatures, similar to but weaker than an undead bane effect. The bone is treated as a simple weapon appropriate to its shape, such as dagger or dart (small and sharp), club (if large and blunt), or spear (if small and sharp and fastened to a haft) and deals normal damage for its type. The spell does not grant proficiency in the weapon. The spell is not discharged when the weapon hits and this aspect of the spell lasts until the full duration (10 minutes/level) expires.

The spell has no effect if you cast it on a bone taken from an undead creature. The bone must be at least 8 inches long and may be straight or curved; normally bones from the arm, leg, or ribs are used. You may carve, drill, or otherwise shape the bone before or after the spell is cast; the spell functions as long as the bone remains bone (not turned to wood or metal, for example).

FelixG
2010-07-24, 12:15 AM
So your a republican and a democrat who happen to be friends. the answer to this is in Role play not mechanic. . . PLay a normal druid however you want to play a druid and let him play his necro the same. ROLE PLAY your philosophical differences. . . it will end up an entertaining game quirk.

Druid (Bob): Darnit Frank stop raising the dead! It's unnatural and bad for nature!

Necromancy(Frank): Bob, I thought you'd like me using the skeletons of our enemies. . . I'm Recycling!

Druid (bob): Creating abominations of nature is not RECYLCLING! You have skeletons that cook for you!

Necromancy (Frank): Like teaching a Velociraptor to bring you your slippers is soo much more natural?

this made me LOL

Zaq
2010-07-24, 12:17 AM
So you know how the typical argument goes "negative energy is just as natural as positive energy, even though Cure is on the Druid spell list" and all that? Embrace that, but not in the way the people making that argument usually intend. You can be a druid who is suspicious of negative energy, but who really hates (or at least has a serious issue with) positive energy. Use any or all of the following arguments against positive energy, and make up some of your own:

-It's bringing an outside force into the world and upsetting the Great Balance. Life comes from nature, not from some outer plane. (This is why druids get an ACF that gives them the ability to grant fast healing.)

-It flies in the face of natural selection. The weak and injured should be allowed to die. (Disclaimer: I know that natural selection doesn't really work that way, but that's not the point.)

-It disrupts the natural course of things. This should be obvious.

Add in the fact that, in your generic assumptions of a D&D world, there's a lot more positive energy being slung around than negative energy (there's a hell of a lot of healing that goes on, and relatively little inflicting or undeadifying), and it becomes clear: you support his use of negative energy to balance out the great flood of positive energy that those insensitive clerics keep pouring around. Sure, you're not fond of negative energy, but it's necessary if any sort of natural balance is to be restored.

742
2010-07-24, 12:52 AM
make a lot of plans that involve expendable fodder
make shirts of skeleton buffing +1; i think you can guess which dye to use.

or as a plan to sabotage the undead, just carry around a bunch of red paint and throw it in every skeleton. that should fix it.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-24, 08:56 AM
Here, this might help....

Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Philistine
2010-07-24, 10:11 AM
We all came up with character ideas independently. The problem is with our inherited magic item rule. The two most powerful items available to inherit are specific to a druid and a necromancer respectively. Demanding "no undead" would basically be saying to one player "you can't have access to the cool magic item like everyone else is getting."

How were the inherited magic items chosen? Assuming you're not going to take the excellent advice already offered, might the DM be persuaded to change one or more of those items to something that supports a more party-friendly character?

elonin
2010-07-24, 10:44 AM
this made me LOL

Me too! I'd just talk with the dm about re-fluffing the nature idea with druids. It should be possible for an interpretation of nature that can at least get along with the idea of undead as natural. If not then he'd better hate arcane magic and technology just as vehemently.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 11:54 AM
They also get at least one spell that creates a construct (beget bogun).

I always thought that should have been a plant - it's made totally out of vegetable matter anyway. Regardless, it's not really a construct in the "able-to-rust, man-made" sense, but I see your point.

WarKitty
2010-07-24, 01:09 PM
How were the inherited magic items chosen? Assuming you're not going to take the excellent advice already offered, might the DM be persuaded to change one or more of those items to something that supports a more party-friendly character?

Unfortunately that would require a LOT of backstory changing. I think we have it worked out though...the two characters grew up together and have a funny understanding with each other that way.