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nyjastul69
2010-07-22, 01:28 PM
My group is starting a new level 1 campaign and I'm not the DM this time. I've wanted to play a Factotum for a while now. I'm looking at going Straight Factotum for 20 levels. The rest of the party (races unknown) are:

Ranger (bow)
Sorcerer: I think the player is looking at the mind bender PrC
Fighter


How would some of you suggest arranging my ability scores to suit my Factotum. I'll be human and I believe Font of Wisdom is in. They are 18, 17, 17, 16, 12, 11 The DM was rather generous during chargen.

This is obviously a non-op game. So please no comments on the lack of it, just on my ability array and any comments concerning the factotum in general. I have read the handbook on WotC's site.

Thanks for any comments ans advice.

Zore
2010-07-22, 01:43 PM
Two decent arrays

11 Str
12 Dex
17 Con
18 Int
17 Wis
16 Cha

or

11 Str
16 Dex
17 Con
18 Int
17 Wis
12 Cha

High Int is absolutely necessary, pump it whenever possible. Some of your better abilities also key off of wisdom so its useful to keep high as well. Your physical stats, besides constitution, are not as important because you get to add your int modifier to most stuff you use them for early on. Get the higher Dex if you want to contribute more in combat directly, more Cha if you want to be Use Magic Device heavy.

ex cathedra
2010-07-22, 01:46 PM
There aren't a lot of bad ways to do it. If you want to play a larger role in combat, 16/17/17/18/11/12 is great.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-22, 01:52 PM
I see no reason not to dump Wis. After that, it becomes a question of what you want to do. If you want to be a social skill monkey, dump Str. If you want to be a strong combatant, dump Cha. If you want to try to be both... then dump Cha and place your skill points/select your spells carefully. Or Dump STR and focus on ranged combat. Or dump STR and take Weapon Finesse at level 3.

Zore
2010-07-22, 02:06 PM
You use wis to power all your cleric mimicking powers, and unlike your arcane spells you instinctively know them and don't have to pay for copies. Early on Wis is very important especially with limited cash.

nyjastul69
2010-07-22, 02:20 PM
My first thought was:
17 Str
17 Dex
12 Con
18 Int
16 Wis
11 Cha

I can help both ranged and melee a bit, UMD and diplomacy will have to wait for decent ranks. I think the Sorc is going to be the party face.

My second thought was swapping Wis and Con. I'm going to get more mileage out of the hp's rather than the Wis skills, will save, and extra Opp. Piety uses, I think. Is it horrible choice to dump Cha? So it'd be:

17 STr
17 Dex
16 Con
18 Int
12 Wis
11 Cha

Edit: Is Wis all that important prior to gaining Opportunistic Piety (5th lvl)? I might even be able to get Wis bump item by that level.

JaronK
2010-07-22, 02:32 PM
Charisma is the obvious dump stat, but I don't think Wis is terribly important. You probably won't need to use your simulated Turn Undead that much, so you don't really need Wisdom for it, but your stats are really high and you just don't need that much strength unless you're not doing Iajuistsu Focus for damage. Int is highest, Dex and Con are good too.

So I'd go 18 Int, 17 Dex, 17 Con, 16 Str, 12 Wis, 11 Cha if you're not doing IF, otherwise swap Str and Wis.

JaronK

nyjastul69
2010-07-22, 02:42 PM
Charisma is the obvious dump stat, but I don't think Wis is terribly important. You probably won't need to use your simulated Turn Undead that much, so you don't really need Wisdom for it, but your stats are really high and you just don't need that much strength unless you're not doing Iajuistsu Focus for damage. Int is highest, Dex and Con are good too.

So I'd go 18 Int, 17 Dex, 17 Con, 16 Str, 12 Wis, 11 Cha if you're not doing IF, otherwise swap Str and Wis.

JaronK

My DM was under the impression that the Factotum is over-powered. I think it's a bit under-powered but still playable, and it looks like it'd be fun to play. I haven't asked him about IF. I'm afraid if I pull out OA adventures for a skill he'll automatically suspect cheese. I should ask though, it can't hurt.

Draz74
2010-07-22, 02:50 PM
Edit: Is Wis all that important prior to gaining Opportunistic Piety (5th lvl)? I might even be able to get Wis bump item by that level.

It looks like you're going to be the party healer. So that means you'll really like having lots of Opportunistic Piety.

Even before that, no, it's not super-important ... but it does govern some excellent Skills and your Will save, so it's far from useless.

Talbot
2010-07-22, 02:52 PM
Wis only matters for two things: Opportunistic Piety (which you get 3 per day of at fifth level, and an additional one every five levels after that even with no Wis), and your Will save. Check with your DM about the feat Keen Intellect, which lets you use Int for your Will save. If you can snag that, you really don't need Wisdom at all unless you expect to be dealing with a lot of undead/you expect to be the party's primary healer. While we're on the subject of nifty feats, Faerie Mysteries Initiate lets you use Int instead of Con for HP purposes, which is handy (although tends to lead to a really bad Fort save).

Beyond that, you really don't need Cha at all. You have the skillpoints to buff all the good Cha stuff anyways, and a lot of them (Diplomacy/Bluff) either give or benefit from a bunch of synergy bonuses anyways.

Int/Dex are probably the most important, with Str/Con next, then Cha/Wis.

JaronK
2010-07-22, 02:52 PM
My DM was under the impression that the Factotum is over-powered. I think it's a bit under-powered but still playable, and it looks like it'd be fun to play. I haven't asked him about IF. I'm afraid if I pull out OA adventures for a skill he'll automatically suspect cheese. I should ask though, it can't hurt.

Eh, they're not overpowered, but some DMs do balk at IF. If he does, point out it's almost exactly equivalent to the Rogue Sneak Attack, and you're a very similar class.

And don't worry about it being underpowered unless the rest of the party is Druids and Wizards and Clerics and such. It's certainly a lot better than being a Rogue...

JaronK

Jallorn
2010-07-22, 02:57 PM
My DM was under the impression that the Factotum is over-powered. I think it's a bit under-powered but still playable, and it looks like it'd be fun to play. I haven't asked him about IF. I'm afraid if I pull out OA adventures for a skill he'll automatically suspect cheese. I should ask though, it can't hurt.

It's Tier 3. It'll outshine the Ranger and Fighter, but the Sorcerer is still better. Basically, you'll be useful in just about any situation, but you'll only truly shine in the few your build is designed for.


Eh, they're not overpowered, but some DMs do balk at IF. If he does, point out it's almost exactly equivalent to the Rogue Sneak Attack, and you're a very similar class.

And don't worry about it being underpowered unless the rest of the party is Druids and Wizards and Clerics and such. It's certainly a lot better than being a Rogue...

JaronK

Except that with Font of Inspiration, a Factotum can get ridiculous levels of damage with IF/Cunning Strike (I think that's the one that gives Sneak Attack dice) cheese. I think someone managed over 50d6, maybe as high as 90d6 once, I'm not sure. That is on the high end of levels though.

ex cathedra
2010-07-22, 06:11 PM
Except that with Font of Inspiration, a Factotum can get ridiculous levels of damage with IF/Cunning Strike (I think that's the one that gives Sneak Attack dice) cheese. I think someone managed over 50d6, maybe as high as 90d6 once, I'm not sure. That is on the high end of levels though.

That's only plausible if you nova with Cunning Strike, which is among the factotum's worst abilities. If you waste that much IP on a single sneak attack, you're almost certainly doing something wrong. It's not really cheese at all, either. Cunning Strike functions for one attack, and so if you nova that way you get the benefit on one attack, and you're wasting a lot of the factotum's potential (read: Cunning Surge). Cunning Strike is useful with Craven, and in few other situations.

Opportunistic Piety is also one of the Factotum's most negligible abilities.

nyjastul69
2010-07-22, 06:55 PM
I'm leaning pretty heavily toward this build:

17 Str
17 Dex
16 Con
18 Int
12 Wis
11 Cha

I'm going to work being a former 'torch bearer' into my backstory. I've also noticed a factotums starting gold isn't all that great. I rolled 120 gps. I know it won't make a difference after a few sessions, but i hadn't thought about it much.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-22, 07:00 PM
My group is starting a new level 1 campaign and I'm not the DM this time. I've wanted to play a Factotum for a while now. I'm looking at going Straight Factotum for 20 levels. The rest of the party (races unknown) are:

Ranger (bow)
Sorcerer: I think the player is looking at the mind bender PrC
Fighter


How would some of you suggest arranging my ability scores to suit my Factotum. I'll be human and I believe Font of Wisdom is in. They are 18, 17, 17, 16, 12, 11 The DM was rather generous during chargen.

This is obviously a non-op game. So please no comments on the lack of it, just on my ability array and any comments concerning the factotum in general. I have read the handbook on WotC's site.

Thanks for any comments ans advice.

Your 18 will be in int, ideally. Drop a 17 in dex and con.

Now, the next part gets a bit subjective...but you have no real bad rolls, so this is gonna be a pretty awesome char regardless. If you plan to melee a fair bit, and wont pick up weapon finess for a while, drop the 16 in str, 12 in wis, 11 in cha. If you never, ever plan to melee w/o weapon finess, swap str and wis for a better will save.

nyjastul69
2010-07-22, 07:50 PM
Why put the 17 in Con and 16 in Str? A 17 Str gives me more carrying capacity and 17 Con does nothing. I'm probably going to put all my ability bumps into Int so as to maximize my FoI allotment. I can't see a reason not to take FoI as many times as possible. I'd like to plan on not necessarily gaining ability bump items as I don't know how prevelent or obtainable MI's will be. My previous comment on a Wis item notwithstanding. :smallbiggrin:

Talbot
2010-07-22, 07:53 PM
Why put the 17 in Con and 16 in Str? A 17 Str gives me more carrying capacity and 17 Con does nothing. I'm probably going to put all my ability bumps into Int so as to maximize my FoI allotment. I can't see a reason not to take FoI as many times as possible. I'd like to plan on not necessarily gaining ability bump items as I don't know how prevelent or obtainable MI's will be. My previous comment on a Wis item notwithstanding. :smallbiggrin:

Spend one feat on Craft Wondrous Items and you can make your own ability boosting gear.

nyjastul69
2010-07-22, 08:29 PM
Spend one feat on Craft Wondrous Items and you can make your own ability boosting gear.

Assuming a 3rd lvl Factotum qualifies as a 3rd lvl caster (I do), I'll have to wait until 5th lvl to do it myself. I don't want to rely on given MI's or other casters to fuel a feat.

Greenish
2010-07-22, 11:02 PM
I'm leaning pretty heavily toward this build:

17 Str
17 Dex
16 Con
18 Int
12 Wis
11 ChaThat's pretty good. I'd swap Cha and Wis, but that's just because I like social factotums. Many suggest dropping strength, but you have good scores to spare, and hitting stuff is based on strength by default, saving you feats for other stuff.

JKTrickster
2010-07-22, 11:12 PM
Hmm first I just want to point out these following links on some good ideas on Factotum builds: 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0), 2 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871722/The_Factotum_Handbook), and 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

For me I would place the stats as 17, 12, 17, 18, 16, 11 with the general order of Int, Con, Cha, Str, Dex, Wis.

Why you should dump Wis completely out of the water: Wis is exactly useful for one thing: Opportunistic Piety. The main problem? That is a level 5 ability that only marginally benefits from Wis (to gain more uses). If you find yourselves depending on healing so much, you should devote some party funds to wands, and not to your opportunistic piety. At most, you would be healing somewhere around 15 HP as a standard action which isn't a good deal at all.

Concerned about your will save? Don't be. 11 isn't a negative modifier and if it really starts getting to be a consistent problem (DM consistently targets YOU with will save spells) pick up Force of Personality, although that will take up a feat slot (MUCH better than dumping Cha though)

Why Cha ISN'T the dump stat and is actually quite important: You lose a LOT more when you dump Cha. Most of it are some of the BEST skills. Wis? Has nothing on any of these.

First things first. UMD. Really that should be enough but I'll elaborate.

UMD means versatility. UMD means all those extraneous magic scrolls you find (cleric ones as well!!!) won't be wasted. UMD means if **** hits the fan, and you brought along the right gadget, you'll prevent the TPK. Why wouldn't you want to max this out as fast as possible?

Second of all if you're going into melee you would want a look at the Imperious Command feat, which shows an interesting way to participate in combat when you start running low on inspiration points.

Third of all? Iaijutsu Focus requires it. Explained below.

Why you need Iaijutsu Focus to remain in melee: Does this skill seem OP to you? First let us examine its requirements:

1. Target must be flat footed AND
2. You must have drawn the weapon before the attack.

Those aren't exactly easy requirements to meet. But the payoff can be worth it and it synergies well with both the Factotum fluff and mechanics. In order to remain a viable threat in melee you need a source of damage and Cunning Strike sure isn't that (trust its a big trap, especially if you try and go nova on it).

Your solution? This skill. Otherwise, you'll be a rogue that can't sneak attack ever. Absolutely horrible.

4. Why St > Dex: By default your Str is used for attack and damage. Why waste a feat to change that to Dex? Just pump Str and drop Dex with the lower score. The small bonus is good enough for the armor you have anyway, and the Factotum does have some nice defensive abilities to compliment AC when needed to. So don't worry about it.

I realize that my views are quite different from anyone else that has posted so far. But please do take them into account. Just my two cents.

nyjastul69
2010-07-23, 12:03 AM
Assuming my DM lets me have IF, I'm not convinced it's worth all that much. It relies upon a roll, having 'immediately drawn a melee' before attacking, and the target being flat-footed. Those conditions make it pretty limited. It's not like SA that also includes flanked creatures and creatures denied their Dex bonus. The phrase 'immediately after drawing a melee weapon' is open to some interpretation. It seems that the skill will be used, for the most part, on the first round of combat and not very useful after that.

I have read all the handbook links provided previously and I'm not at all sold on IF. IF definitely helps a Factotum going 'Nova' in certain situations, I just don't see any necessity for it.

zaulsiin
2010-07-23, 09:39 AM
Assuming my DM lets me have IF, I'm not convinced it's worth all that much. It relies upon a roll, having 'immediately drawn a melee' before attacking, and the target being flat-footed. Those conditions make it pretty limited. It's not like SA that also includes flanked creatures and creatures denied their Dex bonus. The phrase 'immediately after drawing a melee weapon' is open to some interpretation. It seems that the skill will be used, for the most part, on the first round of combat and not very useful after that.

There are a ton of ways to get an opponent flat-footed, so IF comes into play more often than you might think. Force Balance checks with Wand of Grease or a bag of Marbles (from Arms & Equipment Guide), get a Blurstrike weapon, or win initiative -- which you will almost certainly do with Brains Over Brawn adding your very high INT score to your comparably high DEX score. And as for the "drawn weapon" clause, Gnomish Quickrazor is the obvious response, and using the Quickdraw feat can get around this fairly nicely as well with the right weapons.

Besides, between the Fighter, Ranger and Sorceror, you're not likely to ever really be the primary damage dealer. One round (or two, if you get a surprise round) of quick damage should be enough to get the ball rolling for your teammates, while you fall back into the support role that your character should probably be filling. Your lack of any sort of healer will make your Opportunistic Piety and UMD expertise pretty important. And you can always drop a grease patch on an enemy and IF him mid-fight when the opportunity presents itself.

Your greatest strength lies in your versatility, so try not to pigeonhole yourself into being just another beatstick.

JaronK
2010-07-23, 10:50 AM
Except that with Font of Inspiration, a Factotum can get ridiculous levels of damage with IF/Cunning Strike (I think that's the one that gives Sneak Attack dice) cheese. I think someone managed over 50d6, maybe as high as 90d6 once, I'm not sure. That is on the high end of levels though.

It's hardly cheese to use the Factotum's worst ability like that. Remember, you could spend 3 inspiration points for 3d6 sneak attack damage on a single attack, or those same number of points for an extra attack. Guess which is better.

Also, I was the one who hit that sneak attack number, and that was on a Factotum who was ridiculously optimized for it at the sacrifice of everything else, and could only do it once per encounter. It was a TO exercise, and was neither designed for play nor actually any good at anything except having a high sneak attack on a single attack.

For the record, it was a Human Factotum 4/Rogue 16, using the three Rogue bonus feats, all level gained feats, two flaw gained feats, and the human bonus feat on Font of Inspiration. That's 13 Fonts of Inspiration for a total of IIRC 93 total Inspiration points, in addition to the 8 sneak attack dice from Rogue, yielding 101d6 sneak attack for one single attack per encounter (for the rest you get 8d6). Doing this required not having enough Factotum to get extra actions, and generally making the character far weaker. More damage could have been obtained via Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and a Valorous Weapon on a pure Factotum 20.

So no, it's not cheesy to have IF just because there's one theoretical mostly unplayable build that can get triple digit sneak attack. IF is not a super killer, but it is handy... with a Gnomish Quickrazor and a method of flat footing people (usually Grease, Blurstriking, or going first) it gives you Rogue equivalent melee damage. That's handy. Not amazing, but handy... and unlike sneak attack, it works on everything.

JaronK

JKTrickster
2010-07-23, 07:03 PM
Assuming my DM lets me have IF, I'm not convinced it's worth all that much. It relies upon a roll, having 'immediately drawn a melee' before attacking, and the target being flat-footed. Those conditions make it pretty limited. It's not like SA that also includes flanked creatures and creatures denied their Dex bonus. The phrase 'immediately after drawing a melee weapon' is open to some interpretation. It seems that the skill will be used, for the most part, on the first round of combat and not very useful after that.

I have read all the handbook links provided previously and I'm not at all sold on IF. IF definitely helps a Factotum going 'Nova' in certain situations, I just don't see any necessity for it.

Well first of all, Cunning Surge allows you to add Int Modifier to one skill roll. Hmm guess which one you would want that to be?

And while it might not seem perfect, it is one of the few, and better, ways to contribute in melee. You don't have the BAB for power attacking, and the only other alternative I can think of is tripping (which I don't think is as fun, and requires precious feat slots).

So IF really comes out on top for what you can do.

nyjastul69
2010-07-23, 07:54 PM
Well first of all, Cunning Surge allows you to add Int Modifier to one skill roll. Hmm guess which one you would want that to be?

And while it might not seem perfect, it is one of the few, and better, ways to contribute in melee. You don't have the BAB for power attacking, and the only other alternative I can think of is tripping (which I don't think is as fun, and requires precious feat slots).

So IF really comes out on top for what you can do.

Are you refering to Cunning Knowledge? It allows me to add my Factotum level to a skill check. I don't see anything that allows me to add Int bonus to a skill check.

I can certainly see IF's value. I probably overstated my position with it's use only during a nova. I'm going to ask my DM about. If he allows it I may flip-flop my Wis and Cha scores.

All the comments have been very helpful. I appreciate the input and look forward to any other advice people may have about the Factotum.

Is it as fun to play as it reads? I know that's very subjective thing however.

Draz74
2010-07-23, 07:58 PM
Are you refering to Cunning Knowledge? It allows me to add my Factotum level to a skill check. I don't see anything that allows me to add Int bonus to a skill check.

Yeah, he was getting the name and the effect of the ability wrong. Happens all the time ... most people don't seem to be able to remember "Cunning Knowledge" correctly for some reason. But it's the one he meant. He also neglected to mention its 1/day limitation, which makes it a good deal less awesome for enhancing your main damage-dealing ability. But hey.


Is it as fun to play as it reads? I know that's very subjective thing however.

I sadly haven't actually gotten to play one, but from what I've heard, yes. Extremely fun.

JaronK
2010-07-23, 09:38 PM
Are you refering to Cunning Knowledge? It allows me to add my Factotum level to a skill check. I don't see anything that allows me to add Int bonus to a skill check.

I can certainly see IF's value. I probably overstated my position with it's use only during a nova. I'm going to ask my DM about. If he allows it I may flip-flop my Wis and Cha scores.

Cha isn't worth it even with IF. 10 points of Charisma gives just 1d6 damage, compared to 5-7 damage for 10 points of Strength. Yeah, UMD is nice but you're a Factotum... you shouldn't be having much trouble with skill ranks anyway. And Diplomacy is rarely used many times per day, so Cunning Knowledge is plenty.


Is it as fun to play as it reads? I know that's very subjective thing however.

It's awesome, especially if you are used to Rogues. It's like someone took the training wheels off and then swapped your bicycle for a dirt bike. Suddenly, you can rock out.

As for more advice... Darkstalker! Also consider being a Whispergnome and trading your racial proficiency in Gnome Hooked Hammers for Gnomish Quickrazors, using the Complete Warrior rules for doing so. Totally worth it. And get a few Fonts of Inspiration. Not a ton mind you... it's not really necessary. I'd say 3-4 over the course of your career.

JaronK

Zovc
2010-07-23, 09:40 PM
Some of your better abilities also key off of wisdom so its useful to keep high as well.

Wait... what?

JaronK
2010-07-23, 10:18 PM
One ability keys of Wisdom... Opportunistic Piety. But even then, it only uses Wisdom for number of uses per day (it still uses Int for amount healed, and IIRC charisma for Turning capability). I'm not convinced that Cha or Wis are that important for Factotums (though I still think Wis is better just for will saves).

JaronK

AtS
2010-07-23, 10:48 PM
It's hardly cheese to use the Factotum's worst ability like that. Remember, you could spend 3 inspiration points for 3d6 sneak attack damage on a single attack, or those same number of points for an extra attack. Guess which is better.

Also, I was the one who hit that sneak attack number, and that was on a Factotum who was ridiculously optimized for it at the sacrifice of everything else, and could only do it once per encounter. It was a TO exercise, and was neither designed for play nor actually any good at anything except having a high sneak attack on a single attack.

For the record, it was a Human Factotum 4/Rogue 16, using the three Rogue bonus feats, all level gained feats, two flaw gained feats, and the human bonus feat on Font of Inspiration. That's 13 Fonts of Inspiration for a total of IIRC 93 total Inspiration points, in addition to the 8 sneak attack dice from Rogue, yielding 101d6 sneak attack for one single attack per encounter (for the rest you get 8d6). Doing this required not having enough Factotum to get extra actions, and generally making the character far weaker. More damage could have been obtained via Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and a Valorous Weapon on a pure Factotum 20.

So no, it's not cheesy to have IF just because there's one theoretical mostly unplayable build that can get triple digit sneak attack. IF is not a super killer, but it is handy... with a Gnomish Quickrazor and a method of flat footing people (usually Grease, Blurstriking, or going first) it gives you Rogue equivalent melee damage. That's handy. Not amazing, but handy... and unlike sneak attack, it works on everything.

JaronK


I'm just wondering, how did you get the 36 in Intelligence required to take 13 Font of Inspiration feats? I'm maxing out at 34 (18 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement) - I'd like to know for the next time that I need to optimize Intelligence on a character. :smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-24, 12:37 AM
I'm just wondering, how did you get the 36 in Intelligence required to take 13 Font of Inspiration feats? I'm maxing out at 34 (18 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement) - I'd like to know for the next time that I need to optimize Intelligence on a character. :smallbiggrin:30 base Int for being PAO'd into a sarrukh, +5 levels, +6 headband, +3 age, +5 tomes.

That's 49, right there. There are ways to get more.

Draz74
2010-07-24, 12:59 AM
(though I still think Wis is better just for will saves).

And Spot/Listen/Sense Motive if you care about being good at those.

(Spot and Listen are pretty much a perfect example of skills that do get used more than 1/day, so Cunning Knowledge isn't all you need.)

Jota
2010-07-24, 01:47 AM
I'm just wondering, how did you get the 36 in Intelligence required to take 13 Font of Inspiration feats? I'm maxing out at 34 (18 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement) - I'd like to know for the next time that I need to optimize Intelligence on a character. :smallbiggrin:

+2 Racial (Gray Elf, Unearthed Arcana's Fire Elf is nice too).

AtS
2010-07-24, 02:20 AM
+2 Racial (Gray Elf, Unearthed Arcana's Fire Elf is nice too).

He already said he's a human, due to the human bonus feat.

BUUUT, I forgot about age - so yeah, that's gotta be where the extra +2/+3 came from.



30 base Int for being PAO'd into a sarrukh, +5 levels, +6 headband, +3 age, +5 tomes.

That's 49, right there. There are ways to get more.

How do you get the mental stats from being PAO'd? Is it some ability of the Sarrukh, or something else I don't know about?

nyjastul69
2010-07-24, 04:04 AM
Does anyone have any experience with a DM ruling on 'immediately after drawing a melee weapon'? As a DM my gut reaction is to say the attack must come in the same round that you draw the melee weapon. I might go so far as to allow it the following round provided the character takes absolutely no other actions. This doesn't seem right to me though.

It looks like IF can be made to be a very viable option in the right build. It seems to me that it'll require feat(s) which I don't have to spare, a minimum of 3 are going into FoI. I won't have a 'free' feat until lvl 6. I'll figure out by then whether or not I need more FoI. I've already decided that I'm going to be human. The extra feat and skill points are just too enticing. I'm going straight Factotum because I want to see what this character has to offer. Mult-classing won't allow for that.

While the marble trick is neat, I know what comes from using this sort of thing too often. Beasties will start using it too. Even if the DM allows IF I don't think I'd swap Wis and Cha scores. I think I'll get more mileage out of the will save bonus. I also can't see using UMD more often than Spot or Listen. I like the idea of a social factotum, but the sorc will have that covered at low levels and I do plan on pumping SP's into Bluff and Diplomacy after first level.

We won't be starting the game for 3 more weeks, so I've got plenty of time to listen to all of the suggestions. I almost feel as though I need to explain where such good ability scores came from. The chargen method was standard 4d6 six times, drop low die and turn the lowest score into an 18. I rolled fairly well without the given 18. I swapped out a low of 10. More generous than I am. I have a standard of 4d6 seven times and drop the low score.

Thoughts on skills, IF notwithstanding? :smallwink: I'm thinking that spreading out skills at first level is the way to go. It allows for more use of Cunning Knowledge across a very broad base of skills and lower level DC's tend to be, well, lower. It's the 'just gimme a roll' mentality. I'll focus my skills over the next couple of levels. Some skills will always be at max ranks, UMD for example.

Finally, it's the DM's first time at the helm. He's actually run about 6 sessions of M&M, which I played, and it went pretty well. It was a bit stiff, but that's to be expected. He considers himself to be a rookie DM, and I guess he is. So I really don't want to complicate things too much for him. I probably should have mentioned that earlier. He's played 3.5 a bunch and knows the rules well, but still.

drakir_nosslin
2010-07-24, 05:50 AM
Concerning skills, you should take a look at Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm). Making sure that you easily can hit DC 20 is IMO well worth it.

nyjastul69
2010-07-24, 07:35 AM
Concerning skills, you should take a look at Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm). Making sure that you easily can hit DC 20 is IMO well worth it.

Being a noncore skill from a splat book, I'd have to ask the DM to approve it. If I were the DM I wouldn't approve it. It reads much more like a feat or a class ability, rather than a skill. Please consider that I find psionics to be balanced wll enough. I'm not 'psionics hater', but AH just kinda breaches the bag a bit.

Greenish
2010-07-24, 08:06 AM
Being a noncore skill from a splat book, I'd have to ask the DM to approve it. If I were the DM I wouldn't approve it. It reads much more like a feat or a class ability, rather than a skill. Please consider that I find psionics to be balanced wll enough. I'm not 'psionics hater', but AH just kinda breaches the bag a bit.One of the key strengths of factotum is having all skills as class skills. EXP is hardly an obscure source, either, and Autohypnosis is a skill. Not a feat, not a class feature, a skill.

Khellendross
2010-07-24, 10:19 AM
Instead of a headband of INT I'd use a Belt of Magnificence (Miniatures Handbook, 25k-200K) +2-+6 to all stats. Then you raise it and all your stats and in effect all your skills.

Greenish
2010-07-24, 10:24 AM
Instead of a headband of INT I'd use a Belt of Magnificence (Miniatures Handbook, 25k-200K) +2-+6 to all stats. Then you raise it and all your stats and in effect all your skills.A headband is much more economical. Factotum, depending on focus, relies on three or at most 4 stats. Getting the stats you need added on your gear (as per MIC) is cheaper than the belt, and you're not paying for stuff you don't need.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-24, 10:27 AM
How do you get the mental stats from being PAO'd? Is it some ability of the Sarrukh, or something else I don't know about?Polymorph any object grants you the Intelligence score of the creature you're transmuted into (but not Wis or Cha). It was meant for a debuff in the case of foes being turned into frogs, but it works just as well when you're turning yourself into a sarrukh, or something else with a high Int.

Seriously, did they not think about this kind of stuff at all?

Khellendross
2010-07-24, 10:45 AM
Polymorph any object grants you the Intelligence score of the creature you're transmuted into (but not Wis or Cha). It was meant for a debuff in the case of foes being turned into frogs, but it works just as well when you're turning yourself into a sarrukh, or something else with a high Int.

Seriously, did they not think about this kind of stuff at all?

I'm sure they didn't and if they did but play testers can only pick up on so many things.


Yes the headband is more economical but if you can afford the belt or make it. Get it.

dspeyer
2010-07-24, 10:49 AM
Polymorph any object grants you the Intelligence score of the creature you're transmuted into (but not Wis or Cha). It was meant for a debuff in the case of foes being turned into frogs, but it works just as well when you're turning yourself into a sarrukh, or something else with a high Int.

Seriously, did they not think about this kind of stuff at all?

PaO is the vaguest, most abusable thing in DnD (yes, beating IHS). I might rule that gaining a Sarrukh's intelligence also means gaining a Sarrukh's mindset and motivations. Risky, since it might conclude that your friends are holding you back or your quest is a waste of time. Turning into a Sarrukh with your interests should require a craft(mind) check with a DC of at least 50. But we're getting into house-rule territory here.

But back on topic, what do you want your factotum to do? Sneak? Talk? Fight? Something else? A little of everything? It's a versatile class, but it still benefits from specializing, and score-assignment is the beginning of that.

Greenish
2010-07-24, 10:50 AM
Yes the headband is more economical but if you can afford the belt or make it. Get it.If you can afford the belt, pay to have, say, three stat increases of your choice added to your existing equipment, and use the money you'd still save to buy something that's more useful for you than, say, enhancement bonus to wis.

nyjastul69
2010-07-24, 11:28 AM
One of the key strengths of factotum is having all skills as class skills. EXP is hardly an obscure source, either, and Autohypnosis is a skill. Not a feat, not a class feature, a skill.

I know Autohypnosis is a skill. I know EXP is not an obsure source. I'm not sure what gave anyone that idea.

A Factotum does not have access to all skills. It only has access to all the skills that a DM allows. I'm not sure that I, as a DM, would even let AH in the game. It should be toned down. A broken skill is still a broken skill. Even if my DM said to me, take this skill it rocks, I would say no to autohypnosis. It's absolutely terrible. Why isn't autohypnosis a class skill for Monks? It fits both the flavor and mechanics. I'm not familiar enough with EXP to know if this is a 'fix', if so I guess I can accept it. My feeling is that someone said it would be 'kewl ta hab leet uber skill teh does everything' and printed it. IF I can see, autohypnosis, not so much. Sorry for the rant.

Greenish
2010-07-24, 11:44 AM
A Factotum does not have access to all skills. It only has access to all the skills that a DM allows.And wizards can only cast spells if the DM allows them to.
I'm not sure that I, as a DM, would even let AH in the game. It should be toned down. A broken skill is still a broken skill.How is not bleeding to death "broken"? Or remembering stuff?
Even if my DM said to me, take this skill it rocks, I would say no to autohypnosis. It's absolutely terrible.How so?
Why isn't autohypnosis a class skill for Monks? It fits both the flavor and mechanics.But PHB predates EXP.
Sorry for the rant.Ranting be okay, were you just give any real reasons instead of "nyah nyah I don't like it because it sucks".

[Edit]:
My feeling is that someone said it would be 'kewl ta hab leet uber skill teh does everything' and printed it.Autohypnosis was born because the designers looked at the several old skills and because none of them was worth taking on it's own, rolled it into a single skill (that's worth taking, but not too strong), or that's my impression of it. There are other skills they should've condensed, IMO.

2xMachina
2010-07-25, 03:35 AM
The belt is quite decent for skill monkeys. Now, you can do everything well. Sucks for normal battles tho.

JaronK
2010-07-25, 04:53 AM
A Factotum does not have access to all skills. It only has access to all the skills that a DM allows.

Factotums do have access to all skills. But yes, the DM can rule 0 anything. So?


I'm not sure that I, as a DM, would even let AH in the game. It should be toned down. A broken skill is still a broken skill. Even if my DM said to me, take this skill it rocks, I would say no to autohypnosis. It's absolutely terrible.

It's broken good but terrible? What? And why is memorizing stuff broken? Casters have a spell that lets them read books at a rate of 1 per round and they can do it at level 1, which is far more awesome than remembering stuff. Or is there some other use that you feel isn't level appropriate?

Diplomacy is broken. Hide and UMD are powerful. Autohypnosis is situationally useful. Really, it's not even in the top list of skills (but worth a 1 point dip).


Why isn't autohypnosis a class skill for Monks? It fits both the flavor and mechanics.

For the same reason Monks don't have full BAB. Because Monks can't have nice things.

JaronK

nyjastul69
2010-07-26, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by JaronK

Factotums do have access to all skills. But yes, the DM can rule 0 anything. So?

That was my point.




Originally posted by JaronK

It's broken good but terrible? What? And why is memorizing stuff broken? Casters have a spell that lets them read books at a rate of 1 per round and they can do it at level 1, which is far more awesome than remembering stuff. Or is there some other use that you feel isn't level appropriate?

Diplomacy is broken. Hide and UMD are powerful. Autohypnosis is situationally useful. Really, it's not even in the top list of skills (but worth a 1 point dip).


I'm not sure I said 'broken good but terrible'. Memorizing things isn't broken nor is any single element of the skill broken. It's the combination of them all that I think is over-powered for a skill. I shouldn't have used the term broken, my bad. I don't think comparing skills to spells is a fair comparison. Spells, regardless of level, should always be better than a skill. Diplomacy's issues are with the skill itself and how it's adjudicated. Yes, it's over-powered as written.

Hide is decent, but not over-powered. UMD is probably the best skill in the game. I don't think 3.5 should have made it a non-exclusive skill. If a skill is worth a 1 point dip, it's an upper echelon skill. If it's not a top skill, why is so often put into builds?


Originally posted by Greenish

And wizards can only cast spells if the DM allows them to.

Banning a class skill isn't even remotely the same as banning a single skill from a single splat book.


Originally posted by Greenish

How is not bleeding to death "broken"? Or remembering stuff?

It's not broken. It's just too much for a skill.


Originally posted by Greenish

How so?

How would I tell the DM? I would tell him politely. How do I think it's over-powered? I've given my opinion.


Originally posted by Greenish

But PHB predates EXP.

That's no reason not to include how new skills apply to previous classes when applicable. This is one of those cases.


Originally posted by Greenish

Ranting be okay, were you just give any real reasons instead of "nyah nyah I don't like it because it sucks".

I never said it sucks. I also don't believe a rant needs any justification whatsoever, that's the point. I wasn't making a critique, those need justification. I'm not sure where 'nyah nyah' comes from? I can't find that in my post. If you are refering to my poor leet speak, I apologize, it was ill advised and untoward.


Originally posted by Greenish

Autohypnosis was born because the designers looked at the several old skills and because none of them was worth taking on it's own, rolled it into a single skill (that's worth taking, but not too strong), or that's my impression of it. There are other skills they should've condensed, IMO.

If what you say is accurate then the designers should have taken greater lengths to incorporate the new skill with older classes. I'm not sure I agree however. The biggest problem with 3.x's skills, is not the amount of skills or the skills themselves, rather it lies in the dearth of skill points given.

JaronK
2010-07-26, 09:18 AM
That was my point.

But that's true of absolutely everything, you know?


I'm not sure I said 'broken good but terrible'. Memorizing things isn't broken nor is any single element of the skill broken. It's the combination of them all that I think is over-powered for a skill. I shouldn't have used the term broken, my bad. I don't think comparing skills to spells is a fair comparison. Spells, regardless of level, should always be better than a skill. Diplomacy's issues are with the skill itself and how it's adjudicated. Yes, it's over-powered as written.

So you're saying casters should just be better than everyone else? I'd disagree... it's not fun when casters just win, simply because magic should be better. Why should it? Why should the abilities of a 10th level Rogue be worse than a 10th level Wizard, for example? Worse, what about a 5th level Factotum vs a 1st level Wizard... why should the Wizard be better at memorizing stuff?

I would argue that Diplomacy is too powerful as written, but Iajuitsu Focus, Autohypnosis, UMD, and Hide are examples of skills that are strong enough to have real game effect, as opposed to stuff like Appraise or Jump or Open Lock where spells do everything they do better and they often don't get used.


Hide is decent, but not over-powered. UMD is probably the best skill in the game. I don't think 3.5 should have made it a non-exclusive skill. If a skill is worth a 1 point dip, it's an upper echelon skill. If it's not a top skill, why is so often put into builds?

Hide + Darkstalker = cannot be detected at all when you want to disappear, if you can get it high. Being completely impossible to find is a lot stronger in a game like this than memorizing information or really any other use of Auto Hypnosis that I can think of. One skill lets you remember stuff, the other lets you sneak up on a Dragon and one round TKO it (if you're a Factotum with Shivering Touch).

UMD... well, I think it's overrated to be honest. I think it's worth a 1 point dip but I think that of most skills, when we're talking about a Factotum... and Factotums use it better than most other classes. Think about it... unless the DM is intentionally handing you really good UMDable gear, the chances of randomly finding something good are almost nothing (yay, a wand of message! And now a wand of Magic Missile!). If the DM is handing you gear that's just what you need, they would have given you something else if you didn't have UMD. If you get to buy whatever you want, a Wand of Lesser Vigor or something has to be the absolute best thing you could purchase for UMD to actually make you stronger (otherwise you could have just bought that other better thing and been better off). There's VERY few situations where UMD actually makes you stronger. Most people get it because it could get them something really awesome, but I think in practice it's unlikely. All this goes out the window if you took Craft Wand as a Factotum or if you're a Warlock or Artificer for obvious reasons, though. Then it's awesome.


Banning a class skill isn't even remotely the same as banning a single skill from a single splat book.

Banning a class skill isn't remotely the same as banning a class skill from a single splat book, you mean? I mean, you are in fact banning a class skill. It is a class skill for Factotums.


It's not broken. It's just too much for a skill.

This sounds like "if it ain't broke, fix it till it is." You're objecting that the skill does too much, yet you turn around and say the problem with skills is you don't get enough skill points. You'd have enough skill points if each skill did more, wouldn't you? If Hide and Move Silently were rolled up into Stealth, if Listen and Spot were rolled up into Perception, if Open Lock and Disable Device were rolled up as well, then Rogues would effectively have 3 more skill points per level, right? So why is it bad that a skill does lump together related things, thus effectively giving you more skill points if you would have taken all those things?

JaronK

unimaginable
2010-07-26, 09:30 AM
I've got a Factotum at the moment with:
Str 11
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 17
Wis 15
Cha 13

I'm playing him as a coward, and happened to roll high on hp repeatedly, so he's currently damn near indestructible. Fun times.