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kieza
2010-07-22, 01:42 PM
I've never really liked the standard D&D ghoul, but I've also never been able to come up with a better interpretation. Except recently, I've been reading the Dresden Files, and I decided to try and come up with a ghoul sort of based on the ones in that series, although intended for a more standard high fantasy campaign.



Ghoul

Racial Traits
Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-Light

Languages: Common, one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Perception
Hyper-Alert: You gain a +5 bonus to saving throws against effects that daze.
Predatory: You gain a +2 bonus to damage against creatures that you have combat advantage against. This bonus increases to +4 at 11th level and +6 at 21st level.
Rapid Healing: You have regeneration equal to your Constitution modifier while bloodied.
Tenacity: When you make a death saving throw, you may take the better result of your die roll or 10.

Ghouls were first sighted roughly five centuries ago, appearing on the edges of battlefields and graveyards. Although it was thought then that ghouls were risen dead, it soon became apparent that they were as alive as any other mortal race. Ghouls appeared near the dead because they were carnivorous, and carrion eaters. The habit of consuming the dead did not endear them to civilized races, and they were hunted and despised. Eventually, some ghouls learned to fit into human and other cultures, in ways that allowed them to indulge their predatory instincts. Many work as butchers, hunters, trappers, and occasionally executioners or assassins. There are still feral ghouls, unable or unwilling to rein in their primal urges, but they are exterminated whenever they appear.

Physically, ghouls resemble wiry or gaunt humans, with the exception of their teeth, which are pointed and sharklike. This similarity, and the fact that they have only been seen in the last quarter of recorded history, leads many to believe that they are the creations of a wizard or wizards unknown. Ghouls move with an easy, wolflike gait, and they are far tougher than their thin frame would suggest.



I think this is a relatively balanced race: the only concern I have is with the regeneration, but that's the equivalent of this race's power, much as dwarves have second wind as a minor action. Aside from that, I gave them abilities which emphasize their resilience and predatory nature. Thoughts?

Spamotron
2010-07-22, 01:50 PM
Seems mostly balanced the only thing that might be an issue is the save bonus against dazes. The racial paradigm for save bonuses seems to be a subset of all effects of a certain type ie. Save Vs. Charm effects or Save vs. Fear effects. Having a high bonus to save against one specific effect from any source especially one as common as daze could weaken controller monsters in general too much.

Edit: I missed Tenacity having both it and Bloodied Regeneration makes your Ghoul far too hard to kill. One or the other is fine both is too much

Incidently expect someone to yell at you to move this to the homebrew forum.

randomhero00
2010-07-22, 01:55 PM
Race is overpowered.

Fast healing would be overpowered at low levels and maybe higher levels too. Barbarians get stuff like that as a daily power...

Tenacity is easily abuseable, similar to how the Revenant can be made into an unkillable machine by getting a bunch of bonuses and getting a healing surge on a 20.

+5 vs daze is quite strong, that's near immunity.

I could see predatory being taken advantage of too much with certain builds, like with twin strike.

Silly Wizard
2010-07-22, 01:56 PM
Wait, since when was there a standard 4e Ghoul race?
I need to pay more attention to the Dragon releases

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-22, 02:10 PM
Wait, since when was there a standard 4e Ghoul race?
I need to pay more attention to the Dragon releases

I suppose he is refering to the Revenant race, that IMHO are more of a generic undead race.

kieza
2010-07-22, 02:20 PM
I think that the regeneration is roughly equivalent to a racial power, personally. It doesn't heal you all the way to full health, and it doesn't work once you're dying (so you don't return to consciousness every round while dying--Is that why you think the combination of Tenacity/Fast Healing is overpowered?)

+5 to saving throws is not near immunity. You'll still be affected for one round regardless, it just halves the chance that you'll continue to be affected.

I'm not familiar with the Revenant trick. I based this off of the Warforged ability. Anyways, the way I interpret the wording is that you get your die roll, with all the bonuses, or 10, without any bonuses. You never fail death saves, but you can't get an automatic healing surge.

EDIT: No, there isn't a standard Ghoul race. I just don't like the flavor of the monsters, and when I got the idea to use Dreden Files ghouls, I thought it was a good candidate for a PC race.

randomhero00
2010-07-22, 02:33 PM
Make fast healing an encounter power. That's why I thought it was overpowered.

Tenacity doesn't sound quite as bad now (assuming you don't add bonuses when taking 10), but I dunno. Never failing a death saving throw kind of messes with the intrinsic balance of the game. It still lends itself to the abusable revenant trick where you stack a bunch of bonuses and can get a 20 too easily.

The rest of what I said holds true. Overall an overpowered race with a lot of powers and bonuses.

mobdrazhar
2010-07-22, 05:30 PM
I agree that the Rapid Healing should be made into an Encounter power... like the Longtooth Shifters racial power. The +5 Vs Daze should be lowered to a +2 as +5 is way too high and no race has that high a bonus from a racial ability. Lastly the Tenacity should be removed as it makes the character impossible to kill from Death Saving Throws with are a fundimental mechanic of 4e.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-22, 05:43 PM
The +5 Vs Daze should be lowered to a +2 as +5 is way too high and no race has that high a bonus from a racial ability.
Actually, dwarves get +5 vs poison, and eladrin get +5 vs charm.

I think the issue with this race is not that regeneration is overpowered. Rather, it is two things. First, most races get three special abilities whereas this one gets four (hyper-alert, predatory, rapid healing, tenacity). Second, pretty much every race gets an encounter power that showcases "hey, look what I can do", and this one does not.

I would suggest some ability like this, as a replacement for both predatory and rapid healing.
Ghoulish bite, free action, encounter.
Trigger: you hit an enemy in melee. Effect: that enemy takes damage equal to your constitution modifier. If the hit or this extra damage drops the enemy to zero hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to your constitution modifier plus half your level.

From a fluff point of view, I'm not sure why ghouls are considered dextrous or hyper-alert, but perhaps you're drawing from a different archetype here.

mobdrazhar
2010-07-22, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=Kurald Galain;8982714]Actually, dwarves get +5 vs poison, and eladrin get +5 vs charm.[QUOTE]

My bad... am AFB atm and so was trying to work off memory.

The_Pyre
2010-07-22, 06:12 PM
You can spin off some of those abilities into racial feats. That would still give you the flavor, and make it not overpowered.

kieza
2010-07-22, 08:02 PM
Okay, people don't like the fast healing or Tenacity. I'd like to keep Tenacity (it's actually based on a Warforged ability) but let me toss out a few options, in order of my preference:

1) Replace fast healing and change Tenacity: instead of automatically passing death saving throws, they now recover a few hit points when they succeed on a death saving throw; enough to make them conscious, not enough to really matter, and they still suffer all the negative effects of a failure. They also couldn't act until their next turn, since DSTs happen at the end of the turn.

2) Replace fast healing with a racial encounter power which requires no action to use and allows them to spend a healing surge while unconscious.

3) Fast healing becomes an encounter power, and grants regeneration until the end of their next turn, with the option of Sustain Move or Standard. They now have to stay still (not exert themselves too much) in order to regenerate.

4) Replace fast healing and Tenacity with a racial encounter power which allows them to spend a healing surge when reduced to 0 or fewer HP.

Any opinion on these?

PS @Kurald: Yeah, these are based off of Dresden Files ghouls, which are living creatures that live on an entirely carnivorous diet, commonly employed as supernatural hitmen or muscle, and who commonly eat the people they're paid to kill. They're nasty, especially since they don't necessarily kill people before carving steaks off of them.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-23, 03:26 AM
Okay, people don't like the fast healing or Tenacity. I'd like to keep Tenacity (it's actually based on a Warforged ability) but let me toss out a few options, in order of my preference:

(1) has the issue that this will probably cause the monsters to hit on the ghoul again so that he goes down.

(2) is much better, for that reason.

(3) sustain move is a prohibitive cost for melee classes (who need to move to get to their enemies most of the time) and a negligible cost for ranged classes (who don't). Sustain standard is a prohibitive cost for everyone.

Incidentally, note that Shifters can regenerate, and that this is completely not a big deal for them. It goes something like "encounter / minor action: regenerate X while you are bloodied".